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Quest Means Business
Tariff Debate Rages In Davos As Trump Makes New Threats; Jamie Dimon On Tariffs: Get Over It; Finnish President: The World Order Is Changing; U.S. Government Puts DEI Workers On Administrative Leave; Interview With Richard Edelman On Sense Of Grievance; Hughes Fires Grow Rapidly In Los Angeles County; Dutch PM Says Europe Needs To Have A Backbone Against Trump. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired January 22, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:10]
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": Closing bell ringing on Wall Street, another bullish session. The best of the session
being seen on the NASDAQ, which is up over one percent, but still good gains. Bell closes, hit the gavel and we are off to the races.
Those are the markets and these are the stories we are following for you today.
Trump threatens China 10 percent across the board tariffs. What does that mean? You'll hear on this program tonight from the head of the World Trade
Organization.
The issue of America First and Europe. President Stubb of Finland tells us it means Europe must be second.
And IPOs galore. The CEO of Bank of America, Brian Moynihan, says 2025 could be a very good year.
We are live at the World Economic Forum in Davos. It is Wednesday. It is January the 22nd. I am Richard Quest with Clint, how are you, sir? Keeping
warm, I hope, but together we both mean business.
Good evening.
And a warm welcome to a cold Davos.
Tonight, Donald Trump is upping the ante in his trade battle. The US president is threatening tariffs on China and Europe. February 1st is the
potential date, and the president is preparing to address leaders here at the World Economic Forum in Davos on Thursday. It is going to be a video
address.
And so a fierce debate is raging here on the slopes sparked by comments from Jamie Dimon of JPMorgan Chase. He says tariffs are or can be a
valuable economic tool and an economic weapon. In just a moment, I will ask the head of the WTO what she thinks about that and hear her views.
It is a packed hour. You're going to hear from Trump's former economic adviser, Gary Cohn. We have the chief executives of Bank of America and
Edelman. And if that wasn't enough, the Dutch prime minister, the new Dutch prime minister and the president of Finland rounds off a potpourri.
President Trump is threatening to unleash a wave of tariffs on top of trading partners, and only a few days from now. He is considering a tax on
all Chinese imports as early as February the 1st.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are thinking about that, too. We are talking about a tariff of 10 percent on China, based on
the fact that they are sending fentanyl to Mexico and Canada.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Now, China, Mexico and Canada, they are the three biggest US trading partners. Donald Trump has threatened 25 percent tariffs on the last two
earlier this week. Don't forget, of course, there is a North America Free Trade Agreement, but let's not worry too much about that, and what that is
likely to mean with treaty obligations -- details, details.
Experts are warning that it will just raise the prices and hurt every country involved, even though he is also promising to set up the external
revenue service, which would receive the funds paid, one assumes, by the importers.
President Trump's chief economic adviser is one of the experts we've been talking to tonight. Gary Cohn has since been appointed Vice Chair of IBM,
Big Blue, as the company was always known. There he is. You see him in the White House.
And so when Gary Cohn came to talk to me up the mountain, I wanted to know why so many respected economists and people who know about these sorts of
things have signed on to a tariff plan when they also know tariffs raise prices on people.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY COHN, FORMER CHIEF ECONOMIC ADVISER TO DONALD TRUMP: If you want a tariff something that you manufacture in your country to protect your
workers and protect your GDP, I understand that. But if you're going to tariff something that you import, that your citizens want and you're just
going to raise the price on it, it becomes a consumption tax. I have had a hard time understanding this concept.
Now, look, I do think the new administration is starting to evolve on this whole tariff issue. I've seen recent reporting that they're now starting to
think about very small tariffs. So look, I think we should sit here and wait and see where they evolve because there is a big impact of tariffs,
and the number one thing that the president needs to fight is he needs to fight inflation.
He got elected to lower prices and he talked about lowering prices at the Inauguration.
QUEST: And you know as well as I do that that, the traditional way of lowering inflation is slowing down economic growth, either through monetary
policy or fiscal policy. But the fiscal policy looks like it is going to be expansionary.
[16:05:05]
COHN: Again, I think the new administration is coming in. I think that we probably have seen interest rates go as low as I think they may go. I know
there are other people that think that rates will continue to go lower in the United States.
I think the economic data in the United States right now is pretty good. We continue to see good employment numbers. We continue to see a little bit of
inflation. The last mile of inflation is always difficult. It continues to be difficult.
We don't want to make it more difficult. So I think that we will see interest rates stay where they are. The business community right now is
quite enthusiastic in the United States. So I think we will see continued investment from the business cycle, and I think we will see a normalized
economy with normalized growth here, and I think the administration is going to watch this evolve. I hope they're going to watch it evolve.
QUEST: This enthusiasm by business worries me a bit because it is predicated on cutting back of regulation.
COHN: I am not as worried as you are.
Look, the Trump administration, at least when I was there, was not anti- regulation. It was pro smart regulation. And I think there is a big difference.
I think the prior administration was just anti-business. Anything business wanted to do, they were going to block it. I think the Trump administration
is going to regulate. They're going to use regulation to protect businesses. They're going to use regulations to make sure we don't get into
a bad situation, but they're going to allow businesses to naturally grow.
Where a merger makes sense, they'll allow a merger to happen; where a merger doesn't make sense, I think they will block it. You saw that even
the president came out with an opinion on the steel merger.
QUEST: And also, of course, with TikTok, whilst he says, you know, we may not ban it, but we're also going to look at the sale option and all those
other things.
So, he does recognize the National Security concern that didn't come out of anywhere.
COHN: He does. And look, number one driving focus for the president in this administration will always be jobs and economic growth. They're not going
to do something that diminishes the jobs portfolio in the United States.
QUEST: Can we talk computers? IBM? Quantum, the whole sort of -- the US has such a lead at the moment. Maintaining that lead is going to be the
challenge, isn't it, against, say China and others? How do you do it?
COHN: Look, the United States is a bastion of capital. There is an enormous amount of capital being put into the AI quantum space. I think the United
States has a huge lead.
Look, none of us are a hundred percent sure what China has. We should assume, and I think it would be foolish not to assume that China is on
equal footing with the United States. We shouldn't assume that they're not, because I think that would be a miscalculation.
Better to be overprepared than underprepared to where China is, especially when it comes to National Security and thinking about the government.
But the United States, we are continuously pouring more and more capital and investing in the future of technology, whether it be AI and AI is going
to lead to quantum, and I think the United States has spent an enormous amount of money in the quantum front and the AI front. You walk down the
street here in Davos, and every storefront has AI in it.
I mean, you know, last year it was crypto. This year its quantum. I am sorry, this year, it is AI.
QUEST: Yes, choose your color.
COHN: Choose my color.
QUEST: It could be big blue. I mean --
COHN: It has got to be. You knew which color I was choosing.
QUEST: I did. All right, the next four years in one word. Choose your word. Write your word. You can choose or you can sign on to somebody else's if
you want to.
COHN: I don't know how to spell it.
QUEST: Do you know what word you want?
COHN: Yes, I know what word I want. Realignment. R-E --
QUEST: Count it out first. Go on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: R-E
QUEST: R-E
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A-L
COHN: A-L-I-G-N-
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: M-E-N-T.
COHN: M-E-N-T.
There is one for the dyslexic world.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: Jamie Dimon of JPMorgan Chase saying tonight that people need to accept the new tariffs might raise prices. He was speaking here in Davos
and he was talking to CNBC and he said that tariffs serve a purpose.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMIE DIMON, CEO, JPMORGAN CHASE: Yes, I look at tariffs, they are an economic tool. That's it. They're an economic weapon. You know depending on
how you use it and why you use it and stuff like that and you know, people argue is it inflationary or non-inflationary. I would put it in
perspective.
If it's a little inflationary, but it is good for National Security, so be it. I mean, get over it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: So be it.
Ngozi Okonju-Iweala is the Director-General of the World Trade Organization and is with me now.
Are you going to get over it?
NGOZI OKONJU-IWEALA, DIRECTOR-GENERAL, WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION: Well this is what I say. I say, Richard, we should all chill. Can we chill? I think
we shouldn't get overexcited about the issue of tariffs. Let's wait and see what actually is done. Right now, there is a lot of speculation on what
might be done. It hasn't been done yet, Richard.
QUEST: I get that.
OKONJU-IWEALA: Yes.
[16:10:06]
QUEST: I get that, but you've got the president saying day after day, 10 percent here, 25 percent there.
OKONJU-IWEALA: Well, so let's wait, huh? When we look at what has actually been said on the executive order as a series of studies on different trade
agreements, even the External Revenue Service is to be studied to see how it can be set up. So I am just saying, could we take a deep breath? Let's
chill to our members, let's not overreact. Let's not think of tit-for-tat. Let's not get too excited.
QUEST: But you have to -- but as the Europeans have said, you have to be prepared for tit-for-tat.
OKONJU-IWEALA: No, you have to be prepared to take what good steps? First, through the WTO and the European Union is actually doing that with China on
the dispute they have. And what is encouraging right now, and I am not trying to minimize the issue. I will come back to the impact of tariffs,
but saying we should study the matter is actually what the WTO recommends.
If you feel that you're being harmed by other members' actions before you take any action, do the studies, show the impact of the harm and then from
there, you can initiate consultations and talk to that member to see how you resolve the issue.
QUEST: That's a brilliant strategy where there is a legitimate economic issue, but if you're using it as a political weapon, then we are in to a
different ballpark here, aren't we?
OKONJU-IWEALA: We will be in a different ballpark and that is the point where I say chill, because it may be that this is indeed being used to
solve other problems, and I think that is the difficulty for trade, that trade policy and trade tools are actually being used to solve non-trade
problems sometimes, and that makes it more difficult.
But if it comes to actual trade and economic problems, then lets follow some rational steps. And it looks like the US is moving in the direction of
these investigations, 1st of April, before doing anything.
QUEST: Right. The other difficulty with the whole policy is that it seems some of these tariffs are going to be used for completely non-economic
purposes to force a country. I mean, I give the example, of course, of Greenland and Denmark, but that is only because it has been used by the
president. That will be very difficult when you start to ratchet it.
What's the mood in Geneva?
OKONJU-IWEALA: Well, the mood in Geneva or the mood in Davos?
QUEST: Both. Both at the WTO and here.
OKONJU-IWEALA: I think the mood is of some concern. One has to be honest about that. But again, can I say something?
QUEST: Of course.
OKONJU-IWEALA: Trade has been facing strong challenges for the past few years. There has been rising protectionism and use of trade policy measures
to solve other problems. There has been increasing fragmentation of trade, but against that backdrop, Richard, trade has been pretty resilient.
We just did some analysis. We updated our analysis. Eighty percent of world trade -- goods trade is still taking place on WTO most favored nation
terms. People don't know that.
So that's why I say chill and also trade -- world trade is now at $30.4 trillion, which is higher than the pre-pandemic peak. So yes, I am not
trying to be pollyannaish. I am concerned because of the increasing fragmentation. And I will tell you this --
QUEST: Yes.
OKONJU-IWEALA: On fragmentation, if we continue in that direction and we fragment into two geopolitical blocs, we've done additional analysis. Now,
if you add trade policy uncertainty to this fragmentation, we will lose 6.4 percent of real global GDP in the longer term. That's like losing the
economies of Japan and Korea combined.
So it is not something -- it is not a direction in which we should move, okay.
QUEST: And some.
OKONJU-IWEALA: So I am not saying it is --
QUEST: Choose your weapon.
OKONJU-IWEALA: I will choose blue. It is my favorite color.
QUEST: Any particular reason?
OKONJU-IWEALA: I don't know. Good things happen to me when I am in blue most of the time. Anything wrong with that?
QUEST: And you're not in blue tonight. Come over here.
The next four years, in one word, do be careful don't fall over.
OKONJU-IWEALA: Okay. My word is disruption.
QUEST: Oh, I love it. I just will look away in case you misspell it. It is really difficult to get the spelling of these things when you're actually -
-
OKONJU-IWEALA: My writing is awful, but here you go. Disruption.
QUEST: Thank you, ma'am.
OKONJU-IWEALA: Yes.
QUEST: Walk that way. Thank you. Disruption. Thank you very much. Good to see you as always.
OKONJU-IWEALA: Thank you. Thank you.
QUEST: Now, the Bank of America chief executive says he expects a surge in IPOs under the Trump administration.
Brian Moynihan told me regulations were burdensome for small companies under the presidency of Joe Biden. The push for deregulation is fueling
enthusiasm for businesses now to go public.
I asked him how he is positioning BoA for the new administration.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN MOYNIHAN, CEO, BANK OF AMERICA: We grow faster than the industry grows. You don't do that by being less risky. We may pick where we take
risk.
[16:15:08]
So every day we have a $900 billion balance sheet out to our capital markets trading, $900 billion. Every day, we have a trillion dollars plus
of loans outstanding. We provide, you know, trillions of transactions a day. So the idea is we take a lot of risk. What we don't do is reach to
parts that we think the risk reward, especially with our brand on the consumer side, can't support it.
QUEST: But are you going to look at alternatives, more alternative investments? Are you going to redirect towards digital investments,
alternatives? Those sorts of things.
MOYNIHAN: So alternative investments are a major practice. We have about $4 trillion of investment assets, of which 10 or 12 percent are in
alternatives today that are for our clients. We do not invest as a principal in things like that. But then if you think about in the digital
space, the cryptocurrency and all that stuff, you have to separate out the transactional question, which is a stable dollar coin, transactional
currency.
If it is made legal, for lack of a better term, we will be able to drive that and you'll see the bank industry take a position in that.
QUEST: On this question of the shifting nature of capital, for a traditional bank where there is a greater role now for private equity, and
indeed the very battle between IPO, you look, you know, go public IPO, private equity or otherwise, how are you managing that?
MOYNIHAN: Well, if the environment for operating as a public company improves under a new regime in the SEC, you'll see more companies go
public, and we expect a big IPO push, not only because the private equity firms have to put the companies out because they've been sitting on them
for a while.
But importantly, if the burdens of being public come down a bit, you'll see more companies get out.
QUEST: Which burden do you think has been most burdensome?
MOYNIHAN: The amount of disclosure and regulation for a smaller company, where people understand the risk is going to be higher if they invest in
it, if they disclose those risks, as opposed to trying to regulate those risks from a disclosure standpoint into the company.
QUEST: So are you --
MOYNIHAN: Why are there less -- why are there only -- why are there several thousand less public companies today than there were years ago?
QUEST: It is startling. It is startling.
MOYNIHAN: People say it is private equity, but it is also the burden of being public. We are a big company. We can have thousands of people in our
finance function doing the disclosures, but you can't bring that downstream, and that is where I think you'll see some both legislation and
rules in the SEC to move private companies -- move private companies into the public domain.
QUEST: Have you had CEOs come to you and say, look, Brian, I'd love to go public. The public companies want American capitalism, that is what is it
is all about, but I just don't want the headache. Quarterly reporting, all the data, I just don't need that.
MOYNIHAN: There are times in the depths of the financial crisis, my predecessor said, let's take it private, because the end of the day, that
was part of the public because you get whipped aside.
But the ability, the US capability of raising capital for companies not only in the private space, but importantly in the public space is unique in
the world, and that's what provides the resiliency for us to grow faster than anybody else. Not numerically, but size-wise.
QUEST: Choose your weapon of choice. Which color?
MOYNIHAN: Well, we are Bank of America, so we have to choose red. I've spent a lot of money -- a lot of money on stuff.
QUEST: The next four years, in one word, you go -- you can write as big, as little as you want.
Oh. Enthusiasm.
MOYNIHAN: That's what our clients feel, and you see the small business, you know enthusiasm come up. You see the statistics we keep. So they are
worried about all the parade of horrible that you can imagine. They're worried about inflation or worry about getting employees, but they're more
enthusiastic because the regulatory burden in our country, I am talking about US-centric now, in our country, the regulatory burden feels like it
is going to be pushed back to the middle.
And we have given the advice to the last administration, you have to lower the small businesses, you know, thirty, fifty, hundred million dollar
companies are dying under this burden. They don't have the staff and the capabilities. And so their enthusiasm is, okay, it is going to stop getting
harder. It may get easier. And if it gets easier, you know, they're the backbone of American growth.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: And there is Mr. Moynihan's enthusiasm along with Ngozi's disruption and the board starts to fill out.
You're going to hear more from Brian Moynihan later in this hour and he will tell me how Bank of America is navigating what he is calling the
swinging pendulum of DEI.
So President Trump is threatening to tighten the screws on Russia if it can't make a deal with Ukraine. The Finnish President, Alexander Stubb is
next on this program, and his views on the new US president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEXANDER STUBB, FINNISH PRESIDENT: There is a discrepancy between what is said and what is done. So don't take literally, but take seriously. That's
my message.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:22:26]
QUEST: Donald Trump is threatening Russia with new sanctions and tariffs if the country doesn't reach a deal with Ukraine soon. The president posted
his warning on Truth Social, emphasizing it has been left with no other choice. He went on, in his words, to say: We can do things the easy way or
the hard way.
Mr. Trump's approach towards Russia is forcing European countries to recalculate their own positions. Finland is one such country. It borders,
of course, Russia extended more than a thousand kilometers, and on top of that, Finland recently joined NATO.
I spoke to the Finnish President, Alexander Stubb. He gave me his views on this rapidly changing world.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STUBB: We are witnessing a change in an old order. So the multilateral order is going down, and we are looking at some kind of a multipolar
transactional world and trying to understand it.
So I think we should probably focus on issues, substance. So with Trump, we need to focus on peace in Ukraine or peace in the Middle East. With someone
else, we might want to focus on climate change. So just take it step by step.
QUEST: But when you're -- when the other side is -- or your protagonist or ally is somebody who is quite prepared to try to normalize the abnormal,
such as the Greenland issue, or with Canada, are you at risk of not being resolute in the face of this?
STUBB: I think you have to combine values and interests. So we agree that we have shared values, focus on those, and we agree that we have shared
interests. I think sometimes with President Trump, who has done a lot of good things on peace and on defense and on NATO. In Europe, you have to
understand that there is a discrepancy between what is said and what is done. So don't take literally, but take seriously. That's my message.
QUEST: That's very difficult to do, because that means you're second guessing yourself.
STUBB: Well, sometimes you have to do that. You know, we live in unpredictable times, and if the driver for President Trump is America
First, our job is to say, that's all good and well, but please, Europe second.
QUEST: Or shouldn't it be, but shouldn't in Europe, you be saying Europe First? Shouldn't Europe First have its own policy of equivalence on that?
STUBB: Well, I think there are many issues where we have to do that. Of course, defense and taking care of our own security is one of them. But it
just doesn't happen sort of overnight. The second one is peace. We need to make sure that it is peace of strength, position of strength, and with
Ukraine and with Europe.
So, it is going to vary from issue to issue.
QUEST: So what did you make of Marco Rubio, the new Secretary of State? What did you make of his comments where he says, look, there are no good
options.
[16:25:08]
Do you accept that that Russia will probably end this war with territorial gains?
STUBB: I accept what Ukraine accepts. And for me, there are three key principles. And I say this as a Finn. Number one is independence. Number
two is sovereignty. So the right for Ukraine to decide whether they want to join NATO and/or the EU, and the third one is territorial integrity.
And believe me, I say this with all seriousness. I am not going to lecture Ukraine on territorial integrity. Finland lost 10 percent of its land in
the Winter War and the War of Continuation. We also lost our sovereignty. In other words, we were not able to be in the institutions that we wanted
to be. And I never, ever want that predicament to happen to Ukraine.
And I think what makes me optimistic in this, Donald Trump needs to win this war.
QUEST: What does that mean?
STUBB: It means that the deal that comes out of this needs to be good for Ukraine.
QUEST: Right.
STUBB: But, you know, I don't want to push you down a road that is difficult, but if Donald Trump is wanting to put forward a solution that
Ukraine doesn't want to accept, and the US president wants to push it, where does Europe stand?
STUBB: I think what you'll probably see is very close cooperation and communication between the United States and Ukraine, and they will be the
ones who together do the settlement and then Europe follows.
But I do believe that there should be no peace above Europe either.
QUEST: Let's talk about the issue of European competitiveness. Guess what, I am going to say. The Draghi Report.
STUBB: Yes.
QUEST: Yes. Everybody is quoting it. Everybody says, "Oh the Draghi Report," "The Draghi Report." But you've really got to get on and do it.
STUBB: Yes, definitely. I don't think, you know, we don't have demography on our side. We've been talking about competitiveness for 25 years. You and
I probably have to get some old tapes from Davos, Europe needs to be the most competitive nation in the world.
We all -- I mean, and here we come to Juncker, former president of the European Commission. We all know what to do, but we don't know how to do it
and get re-elected.
I think Europe needs to get serious about competitiveness and focus on some key issues and then sort of plow it through.
QUEST: Choose your weapon.
STUBB: Okay, I will go red today.
QUEST: Yes.
STUBB: Yes. Why not?
QUEST: The next four years in one word.
STUBB: Okay. Okay. This is a little bit counterintuitive coming from me, but it is going to be disorder.
QUEST: Oh hang on. Is that -- is that a word?
STUBB: It is. It is.
QUEST: I am not going to disagree with the president. Okay, what does that mean in this context?
STUBB: It means that the world order is changing.
QUEST: Right.
STUBB: And we are in an in-between period.
QUEST: Right.
STUBB: We've gone from multilateral order to multipolar disorder, and it will take a few years actually, for it to settle. I think if I come back
next year, it is going to be disorder again. But when I come back in 2030, it is going to be the rebalancing of a new world order.
QUEST: Is it a pejorative?
STUBB: I don't know. It is very transactional. So what you'll see is sort of these unholy alliances being formed on sometimes unholy issues all
around the world. So that's why I do agree if someone says there unpredictable, is pretty close to truth as well.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: That's President Stubb talking to me about the unpredictability and the disorder around there.
The music you can hear is coming from over there, and we better not keep Richard Edelman waiting too long. You'll be over there partying before
long, but not before you -- but not before you've talked to us after the break, the latest trust barometer warning that a sizable minority approves
of violent change. This is disturbing, but you'll be with us after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:31:55]
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Richard Quest.
There's a lot more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS in a moment when the Dutch prime minister tells me Europe needs to have a strong backbone to deal with
Donald Trump. And I'll discuss the debate over DEI with the CEOs of Edelman and Bank of America.
We'll only get to that after the news headlines because as you've come to expect this is CNN and here on this network, the news always comes first.
President Trump says that former president Joe Biden left him an inspirational type letter at the White House in the Resolute Desk. FOX News
is reporting that Mr. Biden wished the president all the best for the next four years. President Trump says he appreciated the gesture.
A board member at TikTok's parent company says a possible deal to save the app from disappearing in the U.S. will be done soon. One of President
Trump's first acts after taking office included an executive action that delays enforcement of the TikTok ban in the U.S. for 75 days. The app's
ultimate fate remains in doubt unless it sells to a buyer from the U.S. or indeed one of its allies.
Live pictures, we're monitoring new wildfire in northern Los Angeles County. The Hughes Fire has grown to more than 5,000 acres in a matter of
hours. This is video that we received a short moment ago. At one point, it's burning about the size of a football field every 10 seconds. Officials
say thick brush in the area is serving as fuel. And we will bring you more details on that in just a moment or three.
The U.S. government is ending its programs aimed at diversity, equity and inclusion, DEI, as you're familiar with the phrase. The federal agencies
are to put DEI workers on paid administrative leave by 5:00 today in Washington. That's just about as we come off air 30 minutes from now. They
must also take down any public references to DEI offices or training. It follows the executive order by the president, which calls on the government
to root out DEI programs in the private sector.
The Bank of America chief executive says his company wants to provide opportunities to employees regardless of race or gender. Brian Moynihan
told me that while he will continue to make that message known, he understands the frustration at some DEI initiatives.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN MOYNIHAN, CEO, BANK OF AMERICA: In the pendulum swinging back and forth, what you're hearing is maybe we got too far over our skis on some of
the stuff and let's pull it back. And this is a question of providing opportunity for people. That's what we do as a company. That's what we try
to do through our efforts to support communities and provide opportunity. We hire 4,000 to 5,000 kids between 18 and 22 coming to our company every
year, and we want them to be able to be the CEO or any job they want, no matter who they are or where they came from.
[16:35:02]
Nobody disagrees with that. The question is, you know, how do you regulate it, how do you manage it and things like that. But, you know, our company
does a great job and we'll continue to do a great job providing opportunity not only inside our company but outside our company.
QUEST: But if the message is DEI is bad, or at least DEI policies need to be jettisoned, I can understand that you're not going to jettison them, but
at the same time, it leaves people -- the Bishop of Washington yesterday put it very elegantly when she said, you know, people are scared, and
people in your company will be saying to you, what is our position? Are we still safe?
MOYNIHAN: Yes. And they will be safe because in the end of the day, when they come in our company, we provide great capabilities for them. So every
year I do a session with people within our company 50, 55, 60, 65 years. So they started at 18 years old, they went to college, they came back and
worked. They did -- and they're all different. Some are immigrants, some were, you know, four generations, whatever they are, and they all could
have a great opportunity.
That's what we do in the company. And that is, no matter where you come from, what ethnicity, you know, what gender, whatever, it's -- we've got to
provide opportunity. I don't think people disagree with that. It's when you dictate an outcome that they get more critical of what you're trying to
ordain a conclusion. What we're saying is let's provide opportunity.
QUEST: Will you continue to get that -- make that message?
MOYNIHAN: Absolutely.
QUEST: Overtly I suppose.
MOYNIHAN: You might suspect that our teammates asked me the same question you just asked.
QUEST: Absolutely. That's one of the beauties of the whole system, isn't it?
MOYNIHAN: Exactly.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: Now the fight against DEI comes amid growing sense of grievance towards government and business. According to the latest Edelman trust
barometer -- it wouldn't be Davos if we didn't have the trust barometer. Now it finds a majority of people hold high or moderate levels of
grievances and that many believe violence, vandalism and online attacks are a viable way to drive change.
The CEO of Edelman is Richard Edelman.
Good to see you, sir.
RICHARD EDELMAN, CEO, EDELMAN: I'm glad to be back.
QUEST: We're all glad to be back in some shape or form. And this business of grievance and not the approval of violence, but the understanding that
this might be the only way to get things done, it's worrying at one level, but it's understandable at another.
EDELMAN: So we've had a sort of 10-year continuum. It started with fears about job loss, globalization, maybe loss of job to A.I., then it went to
political polarization, right and left, not talking to each other. And now we've descended into grievance. And grievance is aggressive and grievance
is a sense of I'm being discriminated against. Literally 60 plus percent of people say I'm being discriminated against.
QUEST: And the point here is that grievance was by this vast, if you will, middle class that basically have felt they have been shafted over the last
goodness knows how many years and that led to the populism and the seeming inability of government to respond.
EDELMAN: Well, it's inflation. It's the I can't keep up with my bills. I don't really have any confidence in the future.
Literally not a single democracy, Richard, has over 30 percent belief that their family will be better off in the next generation.
QUEST: So where do we go with this? What would you tell your clients and indeed yourself, because it's been a difficult year for you as well? What
does this mean?
EDELMAN: It means that business has to not do this by themselves. It has to do it with government and other institutions, but specifically businesses
roll, better wages, making sure that we have affordable products, reskilling and calming people down about the prospect of doing better in
the future.
QUEST: Can you do that when there is a president that's seemingly wishes to be inflammatory? Every time he opens his mouth, he threatens an ally, or he
sort of picks up on a minority of some sort or another. It's inflammatory.
EDELMAN: Business should stay out of politics. Business should do its job and do it well. And I think business is about innovation. Business is about
giving people good jobs and using A.I. to create a sense of hope for the future.
QUEST: When you talk about DEI policies, and same as I was talking about with Brian, how do you square that circle where clearly federal -- the
message is going out DEI equals BAD. But your employees are the same employees. LGBT minorities, white, black, whatever they -- how do they want
you to react to it?
EDELMAN: What people really want is opportunity, and we've got to give them a chance. And so we want diversity. We want inclusion. And we want a chance
for people to get ahead. And so I think companies will carry on with this work because it's good for business. It's good because it represents their
customers and it represents their communities.
QUEST: What about here at Davos? I see two distinct Davoses, financial industry, crypto, A.I., love what's happening. I see social welfare, social
policy organizations, NGOs deeply concerned.
EDELMAN: I see it differently. I see a geographic split.
[16:40:01]
I see the Americans quite positive. I see the Europeans quite concerned. They realize it's sort of Europe's last chance to come together, single
financial market, get rid of some regulations. So it's probably all.
QUEST: Let me ask you that on this question, because I asked one of our earlier guests if they were confident on the ability of Europe to pull
itself together, and I was quite surprised when they sort of -- the person sort of said, not really. I'm not confident at all that they can do it. Are
you confident that Europe can turn itself around?
EDELMAN: Europe has some of the world's greatest companies. They've got every bit of ability to do it. 450 million consumers, all of whom have
enough money to buy products. So yes, and especially you have a German election coming.
QUEST: Right.
EDELMAN: And so I'm actually optimistic about Europe.
QUEST: Choose your poison.
EDELMAN: I love blue because it's Edelman's color. You want me to put a word up?
QUEST: I do, I do. You can write big, little anywhere you like. Choose, the board is all yours, Richard. Grievance, following on from your trust
barometer. Good to see you as always. Go and keep warm. Nice to see you, sir.
EDELMAN: Thank you.
QUEST: Now, as we continue tonight, there's the board, and monitoring the new wildfire in norther Los Angeles County. Live pictures that we are
showing you at the moment of what's happening. The speed and scale of this Hughes Fire is distressing beyond belief. So we will be talking about it in
just a moment.
QUEST MEANS BUSINESS live from Davos.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: A new fire in Los Angeles County, it's a Hughes Fire and it's exploding in size. It began only hours ago, and it's already more than
5,000 acres, 2,000 hectares. It's burning a football field every two or three seconds.
[16:45:04]
Yes, you heard me right. As of a short while ago, people living nearby are under a mandatory evacuation order. It's the first significant wildfire
since the deadly fires earlier this month.
Josh Campbell is in Los Angeles.
Well, this is just getting underway, isn't it? So give me the perspective of the weather conditions that would either hinder putting this out or will
help.
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you know, Richard, this was the absolute last thing that we needed here in Los Angeles. We were in a period
of a lull after those recent deadly fires in Pacific Palisades, as well as near Altadena, California. Now we have another one. You can see over my
shoulder here as I step aside.
This is in an area that's called Castaic, California. You can see the plumes there rising over that area. We also, I know, have affiliate
coverage from our colleagues at KCAL News here in Los Angeles.
Richard, this fire has just been chewing through this area, which is heavily vegetated, a lot of dense brush. Thankfully where it is right now,
officials say, there aren't a lot of homes, but it's moving very rapidly towards the southwest. Officials say that it is moving into an area that
does have a lot of residents, which is why we're seeing those mandatory evacuation orders in place.
QUEST: Is there the ability to move more fire fighting forces from elsewhere? Have the other fires abated sufficiently that the authorities
will be able to dedicate more to fighting this fire before it gets I say worse? I mean, incrementally worse.
CAMPBELL: It's an excellent point. And if there's any good news in a terrible situation, it's that there have been a flood of resources here in
the Los Angeles area because of those other two major fires. The containment on those has steadily increased, which means that there were a
lot of resources that were here available that are now attacking this fire.
This is largely being done from the air on the west side. We see from our colleagues at KCAL, there are a number of helicopters that are essentially
drawing water out of a reservoir and then trying to stop the spread. On the other side is where we have those heavy jets that have been caught coming
in trying to drop retardant. And it's because of those other fires that we see those resources.
It's worth pointing out this is very much an international effort. We've not just seen firefighters brought in from here in the U.S., neighboring
states, but also Canada and Mexico also have resources here in L.A. trying to protect residents.
QUEST: Right. And we're seeing pictures just looking at that. I mean, bringing it home to us of this awfulness. And cars still driving on the
roads with fires on the hellishness of both sides.
Josh, I'm grateful. When there is more to report, please come back and we'll talk to you immediately. I'm grateful. Thank you.
CAMPBELL: You bet.
QUEST: It is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS tonight from Switzerland. The Dutch prime minister tells me Europe needs a backbone as it faces threats from
President Trump.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:50:43]
QUEST: The Dutch prime minister says Europe needs a backbone and should not play victim to U.S. President Donald Trump. I spoke to Dick Schoof earlier.
He recently, of course, took office, you'll be well aware of this, as his country faces challenges such as immigration and affordability. And now
he's dealing with a new U.S. administration.
I asked the prime minister what he makes of the rhetoric coming from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DICK SCHOOF, DUTCH PRIME MINISTER: Behind it, of course, is America first. And he -- Trump wants to do something for the people in the United States.
That's why they voted for Trump.
QUEST: When I hear you say that, I am saying, eyes, walk nicely into my next question. Do you think Brussels needs to do more Europe first? I've
listened to President Von Der Leyen's speech. It wasn't that strong in my view. I heard Olaf Scholz. Everybody is dancing around this instead of
saying, no, Europe needs to do the same thing in return.
SCHOOF: No, we don't have to battle on import tariffs. I mean, then we all bring it down the drain. So what we have to do in Europe is to realize
ourselves that we've got a big consumer market, that we've got great technology industry, that we got good industry and service in itself, that
we want to make Europe competitive and therefore be a strong partner for the United States. And I think that's the right answer.
QUEST: How can you be a strong partner when the other side seems hellbent on belligerence and antagonistic behavior towards you? I mean, that's the -
- what I'm getting at really is at some point doesn't Europe have to show a bit of backbone and stand up to Donald Trump?
SCHOOF: But I think it's necessary to have a backbone. I mean, we are not going to behave as a victim. So we act from strength, and that's what we
have to realize all the time. And that's what our position is. And I think that's going to be the Europe position as well. But don't go on the path of
tit-for-tat strategy. When you do something this, I do something that, I mean, that's going to end up, as I said before, down the drain.
QUEST: We are thinking of starting a new game.
SCHOOF: All right.
QUEST: Which is called the Draghi Report drinking game. Every time a European politician mentions the Draghi Report, somebody has to take a
drink because everybody is mentioning it on a daily basis. But the reality is the Draghi Report has crucial, significant, important route master,
route for the future.
SCHOOF: Yes.
QUEST: But it's not implemented. It's taking forever to do anything with it.
SCHOOF: Well, the Draghi Report just published.
QUEST: Yes.
SCHOOF: Oh, no. So, I mean, it's just a few months old and the current commission is now in its process of being the 100 latter days. And I think,
and that's why I also spoke about in the European Council, is that we, on the part of competitiveness, we really have to step up. And I think there's
momentum and maybe the pressure of the United States will help in that.
QUEST: Are you confident that you will execute the Draghi Report?
SCHOOF: Confidence is maybe too much, but we will put every effort in it to make it happen.
QUEST: Right.
SCHOOF: And that's important.
QUEST: Choose your color.
SCHOOF: All right. I go for the green. I'm not seeing much green. So that's --
QUEST: Right.
SCHOOF: Yes. Yes.
QUEST: Go ahead, Prime Minister.
SCHOOF: Yes.
QUEST: Where would you like to go? For the next four years, in one word.
SCHOOF: Yes. All right. Here we go.
QUEST: As big or as little as you like. Oh. What about them?
SCHOOF: Geopolitics.
QUEST: That's going to be --
SCHOOF: I think that's the --
QUEST: The key thing.
SCHOOF: Yes. That's going to be the key thing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: Geopolitics. There you have it. The next four years in one word. And by the way I'll say it's a lot harder writing on this board than you think
because you've got to remember how to spell it as we've got some examples over here.
Tomorrow I'll be back in the Swiss Alps with more great guests. The chief executive of the tech and banking sector, Marc Benioff, will be with us,
Christian Klein, you'll also have Bill Winters of Standard Chartered. And in terms of top geopolitical voices are Roberta Metsola and Jorge Kukes,
that will be with us from tomorrow. So looking forward to hearing from the German finance minister.
A quick look at the markets because it was a bullish session overall on the markets.
[16:55:03]
The best of the day was on the Nasdaq, which was up over 1 percent, but it was strong session for markets there. Like what they are seeing. I'll have
a profitable moment after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Just chill, Clint. Just chill. That was the message from Ngozi tonight. Excuse me. I think everyone was getting a bit of a chill. She's
the head of the WTO, the World Trade Organization. And of course, her message was very clear. With the tariff warning coming from the U.S.
president, there are a lot of hot heads around. No. Not you. We don't want any hot heads. You'll melt.
But the hot heads are seriously worried about tariffs against China, 10 percent, Canada, Mexico 25 percent, and who knows what's going to come the
way of the European Union. The message again and again that I'm hearing across that the mantra, if you will, and I can understand why Ngozi says it
is wait and see what the president does, not what he says he's going to do.
Tonight I was at a party where JPMorgan, where Jamie Dimon was there, and of course, everybody is quoting his quote of the day, which is get over it,
just live with it. And these are the realities. These are the economic undercurrents that we're all facing. The significance of it, I think, is
that we've not been here before. Oh, yes, we've got a taste of it four years, eight years ago, but we've never seen anything quite like this
before.
And the traditional orthodoxy of tariffs is they are bad. And now we are just basically going to have to live with it. Can you do that, Clint? Just
chill.
And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for this Wednesday night. I'm Richard Quest. Chilling in Davos. Whatever you're up to in the hours ahead I hope
it's profitable. I'll see you tomorrow. Chill day. Just chill.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.
Any moment federal workers in any diversity equity inclusion and accessibility offices will be placed on paid administrative leave. These
DEI offices were given a deadline of 5:00 p.m. Eastern by President Trump after he signed an executive order banning DEI programs in the federal
government, calling them, quote, "forced illegal and immoral discrimination programs," unquote.
END
