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Quest Means Business
Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem Joins Federal Agents for Immigration Crackdown in New York; Immigrant Communities in Fear Amid Federal Raids. Aired 4:00-5p ET
Aired January 28, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:08]
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": Closing bell ringing on Wall Street. Sky Harbour ringing the closing bell today.
I wouldn't say it is a hugely massive bullish session, but it is better than yesterday. The market is up and it has stayed up all session. Even
NVIDIA put on a bit of weight. The closing gavel, three little gavels. Trading is now over. Those are the markets and the main event that we are
talking about over the course of the next hour.
Talking of an hour, it is an hour from now and the White House is to pause many federal grants and loans. It will impact everything from international
aid to scientific research.
Silicon Valley continues reacting to China's cheap and powerful AI chatbot.
And 200 federal agents take part in a New York immigration crackdown. The raids and the impact and the atmosphere for business.
Live from London tonight on Tuesday, it is January the 28th. I am Richard Quest in London, and as elsewhere, I mean business.
Good evening.
In an hour from now, an order is expected to go into effect that will freeze funding for many public and private organizations that rely on US
federal grants and loans.
According to the White House Budget Office, it has ordered the freeze to start at 5:00 PM Eastern. It will leave thousands of organizations confused
and questioning if they'll have the means to keep functioning after five. It even involves funding that's been allocated by Congress.
The new White House Press Secretary, Karoline Leavitt, shed some light on what is exempt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is not a blanket pause on federal assistance and grant programs from the Trump administration.
Individual assistance that includes, I am not naming everything that's included, but just to give you a few examples, Social Security benefits,
Medicare benefits, food stamps, welfare benefits, assistance that is going directly to individuals will not be impacted by this pause.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Now, a group of nonprofits have sued to stop the freeze from taking effect, and it questions whether the Office of Budget is authorized, in
their words, to gut every federal program in the federal government.
It is hard to overstate just how wide ranging these cuts could be. Let me explain why. We always think of government as being big, sclerotic, and
inefficient, but it actually isn't. Because it touches nearly every facet of daily life, particularly to those who are without or those who are
disadvantaged or need assistance.
The US federal grants are widespread. They are a machine that moves money from nonprofit activities through university funding, through medical
research, through foreign aid, to give some examples.
Now, normally, of course, this thing operates maybe slowly, maybe a little inefficiently, but normally the money goes through the system and it goes
and the cogs all turn, and somehow, they all manage to turn in sync, and the money flows to where it is needed.
But this order that is coming out is literally going to do this. It is going to throw sand in vast swathes of the US government to the point, Tom
Foreman who is with me in Washington, to the point, Tom, that this very finely tuned machine, in a way, is literally having a bucket of sand
chucked in it.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it is, and that presser earlier today from the White House, I think did very little to clear anything up because
they kept saying, oh, well, individual aid will not be stopped. But when they were asked, well if you have, for example, a lunch program for senior
citizens that is managed by an agency, is that individual aid or is that going to the agency and will that be stopped and thereby the senior
citizens won't be fed?
The real fear here, Richard, is that when you talk about the programs that they have not addressed and they haven't explained that this could affect
millions and millions of people out there. Some of the programs -- school breakfast and lunch programs; Section 8 rental assistance, that's
assistance for people who don't have a whole lot of money.
Education grants for schools that aren't very wealthy, temporary assistance for needy families, state grants for child care. Head Start, a program in
this country for kids five and under.
[16:05:03]
Yes, there have been questions about the administration of it, but all of these things literally, Richard, the fear here is that there could be kids
who go to school for lunch tomorrow and they're told, you can't have lunch because we are not ready. There could be people who call a suicide hotline
tonight and find out the hotline is not working. There could be a woman who is beaten by her husband tonight and goes to a shelter for aid. And they
have to say, I am sorry, we are not open, we just lost all of our funding.
QUEST: This is not just going to affect the domestic United States. Under different orders, executive orders and instructions consequent upon those
orders, even foreign aid, even those, for example, programs providing ARVs, antiretroviral medications will be affected as well.
What do we know about that?
FOREMAN: Yes, this happened right before the weekend. The impact of this is just beginning to roll out, too, and just beginning to be understood,
Richard.
One of the problems with this White House is they roll out giant statements and I realized they're new, it takes a while to work things out. They roll
out giant statements with no specifics, and then everyone is guessing.
The cut in foreign aid was pretty much entirely just across the board. The notion of saying, that's it, we don't want any more foreign aid. There are
a lot of Republicans here who have long complained about the idea of money going to foreign countries.
But you're right. If you look at programs to combat AIDS in the world, some of the advocates out there say this could place 20 million people in
jeopardy. Aid to people who are struggling in places like Ukraine and Gaza and elsewhere, all of a sudden, the US big, big, big humanitarian force
gone.
QUEST: But Tom, before I let you go, why are they doing it? If we -- humor me to the point of -- one assumes they're not malevolent. One assumes
they're not mean. One assumes they're not evil.
So why are they doing it? Is this pause bigger than one would have expected in a normal change of government that needs to see where the money is being
spent and what they want to review.
FOREMAN: It is vastly, vastly bigger. This is unlike -- I've been covering news for 50 years, Richard. I've never seen anything like this, even at a
state level.
Why are they doing it? In simple terms, they're doing it because the hardcore base of Trumpers, people who support Donald Trump and this is not
all the people who voted for him. Many of the people who voted for him are going to suffer because of these cuts and suffer in a big way.
But the hardcore base, they have long said we are tired of paying for other people. We are tired of offering aid to people. They should pick themselves
up. We are tired of helping foreign countries, and there is very much a -- you know, take it to the devil if you want to find out what the
consequences of that will be, they want a response right now the way they want.
And I think there are plenty of experts in this town and around the world who have said, you do this kind of stuff at your peril because there are
consequences and they can last a long time, and they may not be what you think.
QUEST: Tom, I need to let you get back to your duties because you're in Washington. You will want to know and our viewers will, that a federal
judge is to hold their first hearing on this. You know, of course, that various groups sued. And now, before the hour is up, he says there is going
to be a video status conference at 4:00 PM, so that's happening now.
I'll let you get on with your duties, if you will.
FOREMAN: Thank you, Richard.
QUEST: Thank you.
Now, whilst we wait for news on that court case, the White House says food stamps, this is the method by which the US government, SNAP, it is called,
it provides nutrition assistance to those who can't.
Food stamps will continue to go out. However, it is not clear what happens to other food assistance programs. For instance, one of the most famous,
Meals on Wheels. It doesn't get more well-known than Meals on Wheels.
It is a nonprofit, you know as well as I do. It delivers food directly to the homes of senior citizens around the United States. Now, Meals on Wheels
says it lacks the clarity and is causing chaos and it could hurt older Americans.
The president and CEO of Meals on Wheels is Ellie Hollander and joins me now. And let's take this.
Let's sort of ratchet back. For a start, why -- the level of percentage, as I understand it, of federal grants or federal money that eventually
trickles down to the individual organizations and institutions. What percentage is it? Twenty-five, thirty percent of the cost?
ELLIE HOLLANDER, CEO AND PRESIDENT, MEALS ON WHEELS: It's about 37 percent, Richard is the total that comes for the older Americans Act to Meals on
Wheels programs that do accept federal funding.
QUEST: Now, you obviously have a pipeline that you're working your way through. So, if this does come in at 5:00 PM, how quickly will you feel
that effect?
HOLLANDER: Well, I think we are already feeling the effects now because, as you pointed out, the uncertainty and the chaos is that it really isn't
clear which programs are going to be affected and which aren't.
[16:10:10]
We are under the belief that our program, because Older Americans Act Nutrition Program is grant funded, the funds don't go directly to
individuals as they might with Social Security and Medicare, but they go through area agencies on aging and a formula down to Meals on Wheels
programs, who then provide the meal, socialization, health and wellness check on seniors.
So this is already happening now because of the uncertainty that this memo has created and the lack of clarity. We just don't know who to go to, to be
able to get more information.
QUEST: I suppose that there will be some people saying, look, you're taking a worst case scenario here. That, you know, Meals on Wheels is a very well-
known organization. Your work is much valued in all communities.
Of course, you're not going to be cut off. Just sort of give a few weeks and wait and see. I am just giving you the argument. I am just giving you
the argument. I am not saying, I subscribe to it, but that they will say, oh, stop panicking.
HOLLANDER: Well, Richard, that would be music to our ears because we have really -- today we've gotten all different kinds of mixed messages. The
memo that came from the Office of Management Budget then also came with an Excel spreadsheet that listed all the programs that were being paused, and
our program was on there.
So we have to assume that it is, and we are squeaky wheels. We have to make sure that we are representing the voices of the millions of seniors across
the country for whom Meals on Wheels is a lifeline, and we just can't assume that things are just going to work out.
They should, as you pointed out, because Meals on Wheels is such a trusted, well-known brand. It has been around for decades, and what we do is we
enable seniors to live longer, more independently, safely and healthy in the comfort of their own homes, which saves money because if they can't
stay at home, they're going to be in hospitals, emergency rooms and nursing homes.
So, there is an economic case for the fact that we should be boosting funding to these lifelines.
QUEST: Right, and I am almost embarrassed to ask this question. So at one level, forgive me, but you will know why I am asking it.
Have you had to look at your policies, your people, your rules? For DEI, are you sort of scrubbing the organization for any aspects of DEI that
somebody could say and use against you?
HOLLANDER: No, we are not.
QUEST: Well, that clarified that. That was short and to the point.
How long do you think you can keep going before you'd have to actually start taking real decisions and saying, I am sorry, we are going to have to
cut back? No, you know, we are going to do meals every other day or we are not going to fund as much. How long?
HOLLANDER: It is an excellent question because we are doing that now. We've had to do that now. We have growing waiting lists across the country even
before the memo came out from OMB suggesting that there would be a pause because funding for Meals on Wheels programs has never kept pace with the
need, with the growth in the senior population or with inflation.
And as you know, we are very dependent on food and fuel for Meals on Wheels. So taking the air out of our tires, so to speak, has been something
that's actually been happening and we have too many people waiting.
QUEST: We may have good -- you may have good news before the end of the program or before the end of the hour according to this federal judge who
is hearing the case now. But we will continue to follow and we will talk to you again at some point to see how you're doing.
And thank you for the good work you're doing. It really is an institution. And who knows, the day when I need it, you'll be there.
Thank you very much.
Now, Chinese start up, DeepSeek, an AI chatbot at a fraction of the cost.
Now the market fell out of bed at the mere thought. After the break, a company called Hugging Face has got a research scientist. It is reproducing
the model of DeepSeek to check its arithmetic, in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:17:09]
QUEST: Silicon Valley is trying to assure investors that it hasn't been outmaneuvered by a Chinese startup in AI. It is called DeepSeek. I hadn't
heard of it until the other day. It claims it trained its chatbot for less than a $6 million, a $6 million chatbot, and analysts expect the major tech
players to invest about $250 billion on AI infrastructure this year alone.
So US tech stocks have rebounded after the selloff on Monday. NVIDIA, where is it? There you are, it has put on about -- so it has put on half of what
it lost. It says DeepSeek proves the need for high end chips. OpenAI's chief executive Sam Altman calls the new competition invigorating, and
Meta's engineers are reportedly scrambling to find out how it works.
Anna is with me. Did they do it? I mean, people seem to be saying, yes, it really did do it. But then does that just mean all the traditional, all the
US is just old, sclerotic and wasting money and time?
ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER: Did DeepSeek make this model for less than $6 million when for OpenAI, GPT 4 say it cost around $100 million? It is
really hard to know. There is a lot of skepticism out there. Does these costs -- does it include training models in addition to the sort of
inference or reasoning model? What about engineers' salaries? And also what about those NVIDIA chips? Did it really only take 2,000 NVIDIA chips to
create DeepSeek's newest model?
There's some skepticism as to maybe the company getting around the curbs from the US.
QUEST: The issue, of course, is not really whether it did it at $ million and all of that, but it is about two things. Firstly, has China caught up
or may even be in the lead? And secondly, is the AI bubble, if not about to burst, to mix my metaphors, the air is coming out of the balloon? You can't
justify these valuations.
STEWART: Yes, I think both things are probably correct. First of all, is this a -- is the US the superpower of AI? Increasingly, perhaps, it is
looking less likely. Can it have a monopoly on AI by just, you know, restricting a company like NVIDIA, which has been making chips for almost
all of the big AI models? If that's not necessary, then it has already lost its crown, which is interesting because that means an America first policy
hasn't actually worked.
Second of all, is it about scale? Up to this point, bigger has been better. It has involved huge amounts of money, billions of dollars, and investors
got a little bit scared, possibly overblown.
QUEST: Right, so you end up with the ability to ring fence DeepSeek. You know, you put restrictions on it, it can't go further, but other countries
will pick it up.
STEWART: And it is a really good example of if you put curbs, if you put tariffs, if you put trade restrictions on a company or a country or a
region, they will innovate around it.
We are in the world of capitalism. They will find a way. And so I think it is a great example of where it hasn't maybe worked.
QUEST: Well, I think for all sorts of reasons, you get one of those.
[16:20:10]
STEWART: Oh, what a pleasure.
QUEST: Only one? Thank you, Anna Stewart.
Critics of the export controls exactly what Anna has said, say DeepSeek has proven them right. Silicon Valley relies on the powerful NVIDIA H-100 chip
for AI. China is not allowed to import them.
Now, without access, DeepSeek was forced to innovate. The company says its chatbot was trained on NVIDIA's H-800 chips. They were designed to comply
with US export controls put in place a few years ago.
In short, DeepSeek says, it has done more with less.
Lewis Tunstall is a senior research scientist at Hugging Face. The company develops tools that help build AI and has been leading the team,
reproducing the model.
So come on, sir. Have they done it?
LEWIS TUNSTALL, SENIOR RESEARCH SCIENTIST, HUGGING FACE: So they've definitely closed the gap between open source and closed source. OpenAI
have a model called 0-1, which is one of the best models in the world, and DeepSeek have created an open weight version of this that anyone can
download and use in their computers.
QUEST: Did they do it for $6 million and without any more powerful chips than the ones that they say they used?
TUNSTALL: So I think the cost is probably overblown. So in general, when you train these models, you have to do many experiments. And so in the path
to training your final model, it is possible that the final training run is $5 million. But I expect they spent a lot more in getting to that point.
And an analogy would be like, if I am an author writing a book, perhaps I write my final draft in one day, but I had to do many drafts to get to that
point, and I expect it was something similar like that for DeepSeek.
QUEST: So I asked ChatGPT, I asked what do you make of DeepSeek? And what are its advantages over you? And it said it has more real time data. It
said it had this, that and the other, APIs, blah-blah-blah.
But then it said ah, but Chat said I am better at being conversational and better at being interactive. Is that your judgment?
TUNSTALL: I think it is pretty subjective, right? Because what we think of more conversational depends on the person's tastes. I think what DeepSeek
does is it definitely has a different character to ChatGPT. I think primarily ChatGPT has been trained to kind of encode western values,
whereas DeepSeek certainly seems to have, you know, more of a bias towards, say, Chinese values. And I think that's like the interesting thing of
having different models in the world.
QUEST: The ability, I mean, obviously the big concern is that the valuations of the western companies can't be justified if they're spending
that much more money than the others and not necessarily building a better mousetrap, just building a different one.
I mean, if this if it costs that much more, then you are looking at an investor market that says something is wrong here.
TUNSTALL: So I think the reaction from the stock markets is probably overblown.
QUEST: Right.
TUNSTALL: What's important to note here is that there is kind of two axes that we have as model builders to kind of train models. So on the one hand
we can scale them up, we can train them to be bigger. We can use more data, more compute. And this is a sort of known path to improving the
capabilities of models.
But the big breakthrough that happened from OpenAI last year was to show that actually, if you train the models to think longer on hard problems,
you can actually get similar gains in performance.
And so I think what we are likely going to see is actually an increase in the demand for compute, because what the DeepSeek model shows is that if
you have access to one of these reasoning models, there is a whole range of use cases that are suddenly available.
QUEST: This morning, when I was looking at the market reaction and let's face it, the market is always going to swing the pendulum way too far one
way or the other. But this morning, what I thought of from NVIDIA's point of view is talk of my death is greatly exaggerated. This is very early on.
I mean, you know, there's lots of people who just want to jump up and down and say, oh, it is all over, panic, rush. But it is not that, is it? It is
much more complicated than that.
TUNSTALL: Yes, indeed. And just to give you some context, so DeepSeek released their model on the Hugging Face platform and immediately the open
source community started tinkering with it, both trying to understand what it can do, but also to kind of adjust it to its own applications.
And so we've had over three million downloads in the last few days, and in order to run these models, you need GPUs, you need compute and you need
hardware.
And so the demand for things like NVIDIA, I think is only going to increase because all of these people now have access to this model.
QUEST: Can I just quickly ask you on that, this idea of this open software business and the criticisms of chat and others who haven't and sort of Meta
that has. This idea of open software, how significant is it?
[16:25:10]
TUNSTALL: In my opinion, I think it is the most important path forward in order to foster innovation in the ecosystem, because if you don't have
access to open models and open data sets, you really have no idea what goes into these systems. They are effectively pure black boxes.
And so if I am a developer or a company that wants to understand deeply, you know, how my systems work, it is really important to have access to
these.
And the other side of it is that in some sense, it is really democratizing the accessibility of AI. And I think that's the really exciting part of
this whole ecosystem.
QUEST: We will talk more, sir. We are going to need your help, I promise you this, in the days, weeks, and months ahead. So looking forward to
having you on QUEST MEANS BUSINESS some more. Thank you sir.
TUNSTALL: Thank you so much. Bye.
QUEST: Donald Trump is doubling down on his threat to impose tariffs on Mexico and Canada starting on February 1st, concern that it could stifle
international trade.
I spoke to the CEO of the British bank, Standard Chartered. He was in Davos, and Bill Winters offered his take on the outlook for global trade.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL WINTERS, CEO, STANDARD CHARTERED: Global trade is fundamentally a good thing. It has lifted literally billions of people out of poverty. It has
increased the wealth of lots and lots of people who are floating around Davos right now.
But of course, it left big chunks of the population behind and telling them to just get over it.
QUEST: You see the problem with that argument is that that's not the way the tariffs are going to be used on this case. They are going to be used
for geopolitical purposes as a weapon to force people not just to redress economic imbalances or trade imbalances, but to actually force political
change.
WINTERS: Well, you know, there are many, many versions of war and if this is one of the weapons that are going to be using in a war, then as somebody
famous said yesterday, so be it.
But that's not a good outcome. Wars aren't good outcomes. Obviously, there are peaceful resolution to issues that advance all of mankind and all of
the participants of the war, and nobody wins in a war, even if somebody comes out on top.
So yes, is there a prospect of the US and China or US and friends, China and friends actually finding a way to cooperate, or at least be a little
bit less antagonistic? Yes, there is a really good way, given the common interest and in that world, you're not throwing tariffs around.
QUEST: A0re you preparing and are you preparing your clients for a more difficult environment in the next four years?
WINTERS: Absolutely. And it is not just the next four years, it is the last four years and the last eight years. So the reconfiguring of supply chains,
the reconfiguring of payment and investment flows began before the first Trump presidency. Of course, it accelerated during Trump. It accelerated
further as a result of COVID.
And it is no matter what the political environment is from here, it is going to keep on going.
QUEST: So what needs to happen?
WINTERS: So you're getting diversified chains. There is no more single source dependance. You're getting both geographical dispersion as well as
security or friendship type dispersion.
Clearly, there is an effort in the US to reestablish a manufacturing base that will be a long time coming. Right? That will be a hard thing to do,
but for key industries, particularly industries of national strategic importance, like some of the tech components, of course, that will come
back onshore over some period of time.
But that's a new world.
QUEST: When you look at the global economy, you were saying the consensus is things are reasonably okay. Does that worry you?
WINTERS: Yes. When everybody says the economy is great and it is going to be great for 2025, that's usually a pretty good indicator that there is
going to be a problem.
Now, everybody who says things are great will then tell you the 50 things that are concerning right now, and you know what they are, and you talk
about them on your program all the time.
So those will come home to roost at some point, but maybe not till next year.
QUEST: But what's the number one, one for you?
WINTERS: The number one, one for me is does a new Trump administration, together with the leadership of China, find a way to veer towards some --
there is not going to be a rapprochement, but some sort of entente that allows the world to move forward with a little bit more certainty than we
have right now. Or do things get a lot worse?
QUEST: Are you jubilant at the thought of less regulation?
WINTERS: I think there is a significant fine tuning that is required, now, 15 years after the financial crisis. I am talking about finance here, but
there's lots of other regulation that we are talking about as well.
But the financial crisis was one of those existential moments. Governments needed to respond. They did with a sledgehammer, and we are in broadly good
shape. But it is time to take the sledgehammer out, maybe get an ice pick and just start chipping away, and maybe you'll have a different sculpture
at the end altogether, but probably not taking another sledgehammer out to break the whole thing down.
QUEST: The next four years, in one word.
WINTERS: Spelling.
QUEST: Don't worry, everybody has had this. We look the other way at this point. Transformative. That's a suitably neutral word.
WINTERS: But it will be for good. We are going to have --
QUEST: What do you mean, transformative?
WINTERS: We are going to have a -- we will settle into a different geopolitical reality, one way or the other.
QUEST: Yes.
WINTERS: We will settle into a new form of financial infrastructure that I think will be -- make it very clear that the financial system is moving on
to blockchains, with various forms, cryptocurrencies will play a part. Stable coins will be much more important than that, I think. Payment rails
will evolve. It doesn't mean the old guys go away and the new guys take over, but it will transformed, in the meantime.
And I think we will come to realize the folly of not addressing the climate change challenge over the next four years.
[16:30:50]
QUEST: Can I -- the folly of not addressing.
WINTERS: Yes.
QUEST: But with a new administration in Washington arguably even going backwards.
WINTERS: Washington is clearly going backwards. The private sector, I would say, across the world is going forward. Other very large countries like
China and India are going forwards. So I think on balance, but we will not have addressed the issue head on by a long shot. And I'm afraid it's
already pretty clear to me that that's a mistake. But it's going to be very, very clear to everybody over the next four years what a big mistake
that is. And I hope it's not too late to get our act together.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: Bill Winters talking to me in Davos last week.
As you and I continue tonight, federal agents carried out major immigration raids in New York earlier. And there's now fear in the immigrant
communities. That could affect business and will affect the economy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: And so to the immigration raids in New York. And now we're learning from a senior law enforcement source that the authorities arrested a high
ranking member of the Tren de Aragua Gang.
[16:35:04]
It's all part of a broader crackdown on illegal immigrants that was taking place. This new secretary of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, joined the
raids. The latest in a series of immigrant arrests in the New York metro area. We had one in Newark, New Jersey, on Friday that targeted migrants
working in local business.
Polo is with me.
And did they intend to get these people or were they just sort of dragged along in the net?
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know, Richard, is that a majority of these people were individuals that had a violent criminal past,
according to investigators, and they had been after them for quite some time.
What we know now, according to multiple law enforcement sources, when it comes to just the operation overnight here in New York, is that roughly 24
individuals were detained by authorities and will now be deported. Took about 200 federal agents to make that happen overnight. This shouldn't come
as a surprise. We've seen these sort of operations in the past, even with previous administrations.
I will note, though, Richard, especially when you see those images that you shared with our viewers, what is fairly unique here are some of the images
that have been released quite intentionally by the Trump administration and by various federal law enforcement agencies to essentially project that
image of enforcement.
In terms of speaking with authorities in other countries, immigration authorities, it seems that the number of deportations has not significantly
gone up, at least not yet. But that's certainly going to be one to watch.
But I tell you the other main issue certainly is that prevailing fear among migrants that has potential to affect the economy in the United States.
You're looking at the massive sectors like construction, hospitality, dining, when roughly 5 percent of the U.S. workforce depends on some of
these migrant workers, especially undocumented workers, then there's certainly concern.
QUEST: Right.
SANDOVAL: An example would be the construction industry as well, where there are well over 200,000 construction positions still available. And
there is concern now with these renewed fears because these are fairly -- it's not the first time we see this kind of concern among migrants, but
these renewed fears, many people will be concerned to go out and work, go to school, seek the health care.
QUEST: And that is exactly where we're going next in our coverage. Thank you, Polo.
Rebecca Shi is the executive director of the American Business Immigration Coalition.
Rebecca, good to see you. Are you seeing a fall off, a reduction, whatever word you want to use of immigrant, migrant labor not turning up to work,
undocumented, because they're frightened of being arrested of raids?
REBECCA SHI, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICAN BUSINESS IMMIGRATION COALITION: Thank you so much for having me. We have a membership of 1700 employers
around the country, and as fear and anxiety are rippling through the communities, businesses are feeling the impact. Some of my members are
reporting up to 50 percent slowdown in operations and foot traffic, primarily because immigrants and their U.S. citizen family members are
afraid.
QUEST: Today, at the White House press briefing, the press secretary, when asked, are you only picking up criminals, she said anyone who is in this
country undocumented is illegal, therefore they are a criminal. Now there's a sophistry of parsing the language, but essentially everybody and anybody
is fair game by that definition.
SHI: Look, I would say that the Trump administration and borders czar Tom Homan have been incredibly transparent on this, that they are enforcing
against public safety threats as well as people who are undocumented, working, paying taxes, which we know are the majority of the people that
have been here for decades.
QUEST: So how do businesses -- at what point do you think we're going to see businesses saying, hang on, we can't run that machinery, we can't pick
that crop, we can't open that restaurant, we can't -- our business is suffering. How long before your members tell you that?
SHI: Our members, even yesterday we had a meeting and our members were reporting not being able to open businesses on some days because of the
labor is so tight. Look, if every single American who's looking for work today finds a job, we still have 1.7 million jobs open. We have an
extremely tight labor market. It is why we actually are kicking off a national campaign that's called "Secure Our Border and Secure Our
Workforce," because the buck stops at Congress. Congress needs to legislate and actually fix our broken immigration system.
QUEST: They're not going to do that. I mean, they've had plenty of opportunity. And the one opportunity they had, they didn't take. So whilst
I don't want to rain on your parade, I think you're a realist and you know it's not coming anytime soon.
How much worse do you think these raids are going to get?
SHI: Well, I think to your point that this issue is going to become a priority for not just employers and the community, but everyday Americans
when they see that their favorite restaurant, their favorite local coffee shop closes, or that they start seeing, you know, we're already seeing a
dollar carton eggs, right?
[16:40:17]
If it becomes $16 and milk disappearing from the shelves, it is going to be everyday Americans knocking on the doors of Congress. And look, one thing
that's been very clear with President Trump is that he's serious about this issue. And this is the number one issue that drove Americans to the polls
in November. And so that's why we are pushing Congress to fix this, fix this for the employers and fix this for our communities.
QUEST: Rebecca, I'm grateful for you joining us tonight.
And I'm going to take a moment here just to do a quick profitable moment on this very subject, because the entire immigration issue in the United
States, which has been broken for so many years, is going into sharp relief. The awful part about what we are seeing and will continue to see is
the fear factor that is now rippling through the immigrant community, and it will not be long before real economic damage is starting to be done.
Restaurants won't be able to open, crops won't get picked, machinery won't get done, construction won't take place. That is an economic reality that
I'm afraid is going to happen.
And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for tonight. I'm Richard Quest in London. Whatever you're up to in the hours ahead, I hope it is profitable.
Join me in Marrakech after the break. "World of Wonder."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: It's time to embrace new adventures. Find the fun. Seize the moments.
Spectacular.
In this World of Wonder.
Deep within the hectic souk in Marrakech is a man I met during my last visit here six years ago.
The smell as that was coming out and grinding and mixing.
His spice blend has been the highlight of many of my barbecues over the last few years. I'm obsessed with finding him and getting some more spices.
Oh, yes, to be sure, there are plenty of other spice sellers that probably could do just as good a job, but I want the same man who mixed the spices
with such success.
Our driver has been making some calls to see if he can track down Mr. Spice Man. He receives a tip off and moments later we're heading for the souk.
I've got the right place, but I haven't got the right man.
To tell you the truth I was a little disappointed, but panic not for at the back of the shop, more calls were being made. And then, as if by magic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recognize this guy?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember this person?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Welcome. Marhaba (PH).
QUEST: Well done. I've come all this way to buy spices again.
Needless to say, I ended up buying far more spices than I needed, so plenty to keep me going for the next decade.
In Morocco, it's always the day at le mint, the mint tea that everybody rhapsodizes about, and certainly I've drunk my fair share of that delicious
brew. But this time I'm branching out, for today I'm all about Moroccan coffee.
What is this place?
TAHA BOUQDIB, CEO, V3 GOURMET: OK, this is like the Dar El Bacha Palace that is founded in 1910. And you have here this garden with all these
oranges. And this is what we use, these oranges, to the restaurant for to have a fresh --
QUEST: Really?
BOUQDIB: Yes.
QUEST: These trees produce enough fruit?
BOUQDIB: Absolutely.
QUEST: Wow.
The restaurant he's referring to is the Bacha Coffee shop, an institution where the coffee is grand and the location spectacular.
BOUQDIB: Today, I think we create exactly what's happening in the '30s and the '20s here in Marrakech. It means you are not just in the coffee house,
you are in another world.
QUEST: This coffee shop is extremely popular.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. One, two. Marrakech.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Have a safe trip.
QUEST: How different is what the coffee you're serving here to the coffee that you would serve elsewhere?
BOUQDIB: Absolutely here we serve as a traditional way. It means that we don't have the espresso machines. We grind like every minute some coffee
for different kind of choices. And we put it in the cotton for a couple of minutes. And after, we serve fresh cup of coffee.
QUEST: So it's not espresso based, but it's stronger than Americano or filter. And Bacha Coffee has designed its own open coffee bag. It is either
genius or heresy, depending on your point of view. Luckily, Awesome is as much a coffee snob as me.
I think you're going to like this.
AL, CAMERAMAN: I mean, I'm fascinated by this because --
QUEST: Why?
AL: Well, because we don't get good coffee when we travel.
QUEST: Right.
AL: And that, I mean, we've tried all sorts of things as well. We've tried bringing the pods with us. I've got a pump.
BOUQDIB: Yes. The French press.
AL: Yes. But that I've been out in the middle of the desert and used the French press.
BOUQDIB: Absolutely.
AL: Hot water. But all these things are complicated, and they take time. That it looks very quick and easy. It's delicious.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:50:40]
MOHSINE TOUEL, STORYTELLER: Tonight we have prepared for you some stories and tales. Stories and tales from the depth of our culture.
A long time ago there lived a very humble man with a very humble job. But this humble job would really make him very famous in the city. His job is a
greb.
QUEST: Storytelling has been a part of Moroccan culture for centuries. It is an art that a few dedicated practitioners are still committed to
preserving.
While chatting to this young storyteller, I took a few notes and I'm considering whether I should take the stage later in the evening.
What's the trick?
TOUEL: When you tell the story to the people, you have them -- you have to be able to be connected with them emotionally. That's the trick. You'll be
able to take them with you to your world.
QUEST: And what do you like to tell stories about?
TOUEL: Well, most of the stories are folktales stories, stories that went from one generation to another. I learned these stories some from my
parents, especially from my mother, would tell the story is that when you go in the alleyways of Marrakech and you see the craftsmen, for example, a
carpenter or a greb, you know the story behind these kind of people.
QUEST: A greb is a water seller. They seem to have a lot of stories about water sellers.
While storytelling is very much part and parcel of life in Morocco, clearly no trip here is complete without a visit to a hammam.
Hammam, the traditional way of bathing, that must be said with gusto. And this one could well be amongst the finest. A place of immense beauty where
peace and tranquility reign.
Al, as ever, has plenty to say for himself.
AL: So you have to do everything you normally do, but you're also butt naked.
QUEST: The butt naked bit is the hard part. Pardon the phrase. You see? You see you're giggling. I make one simple comment and you become a sophomoric
child.
AL: True. I mean, I'm not the one who's going to be getting naked.
QUEST: No, there's no naked. You want me to strip? AL: I'm imagining the -- I could hear the stripper music already.
QUEST: No.
Robe on, robe off. Let the treatments begin.
It stings.
I've been thoroughly scrubbed and stretched. And now an icy plunge.
You have got to be joking.
AL: The knackers. You got to get the knackers in. Just dunk them quick. There we go.
QUEST: Even our Moroccan producer Mahacine is joining in from the cheap seats.
What?
MAHACINE, PRODUCER: And your head.
AL: Everything. Cool. Well done.
QUEST: Take it from me. That was seriously cold.
By the way, since I've been here, I've been noticing all these orange trees. Fascinating. So on the way back to the hotel.
Just basically, pick your own orange. I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to be doing this. The guard isn't looking, but look at this. This is just
delicious. Huh?
MAHACINE: And juicy.
QUEST: Absolutely. Juicy, nice, and there's plenty more where that came from. That was so bitter. That was not what I was expecting.
[16:55:02]
The bitter orange will become a story from Morocco I shall suitably embellish and exaggerate as all good stories are. So now time to tell one
of my own.
TOUEL: Ladies and gentlemen, he's still sipping his tea, but please give him a round of applause, Mr. Richard Quest.
QUEST: So they said to me, come here and be a storyteller. Well, I have a story to tell you tonight. It is the story of a foolish Englishman who
rashly and stupidly agreed to become a storyteller here in Marrakech.
Truth be told, my story is simple. All our experiences become traveler's tales.
You are the storytellers. You are the material of your own story.
I have thoroughly enjoyed my visit to mystical Marrakech. Thank you. Whether you are a first time visitor, seeing the famous sights or you're a
repeater going further afield, thank you so much, there is much to do on every visit, which is why I say magical Marrakech definitely part of our
"World of wonder."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: And as they crack down on illegal immigration, the new head of the Department of Homeland Security is on scene as agents
carried out operations in New York. The mayor of Denver, another city reported to be a top priority for this crackdown, is going to --
END