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Quest Means Business

Trump Administration Tries To Clarify Remarks On Taking Over Gaza; CIA Sends Buyout Offers To Entire Workforce; Trump Plans Sweeping Layoffs For Workers Who Don't Quit; In Red Nebraska, Concerns About Trump's Hard- Line Policy; Increased Immigration Action And The Workforce; "Zebra Stripping" May Help Adults Moderate Drinking Habits; U.S. Postal Service Restores Delivery Of Parcels From China And Hong Kong. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired February 05, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ERICA HILL, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: How about a positive end to the day on Wall Street for you? NVIDIA among the big gains. Taking a look there as we

close out the trading day here in New York Those are the markets, these are the main events.

A global uproar over President Trump's radical proposal to have the US take ownership of Gaza. The White House press secretary trying to clarify,

calling this some of the president's "out of the box thinking."

Former Twitter employees offering advice to government workers about how to deal with Elon Musk, and how the rise in nonalcoholic beverage choices is

impacting many nights at the bar.

Coming to you live from New York. It is Wednesday, February 5th. I am Erica Hill, in for Richard Quest. This is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.

And it is good to have you with us.

Tonight, cleaning up President Trump's "out of the box" idea to take over Gaza, a plan which immediately sparked both confusion and anger in the wake

of these comments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have an opportunity to do something that could be phenomenal. And I don't want to be cute, I don't

want to be a wise guy, but the Riviera of the Middle East. This could be something that could be so -- this could be so magnificent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Secretary of State Marco Rubio now says the president was offering to take responsibility for the reconstruction. Those comments made as he was

speaking alongside the Guatemalan president. Rubio also said the details would still need to be worked out.

Meantime, Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt earlier today at the White House said Mr. Trump has not committed to putting US troops on the ground, nor

has he committed to pay for the reconstruction. And she also did acknowledge the president's remarks were a bit unexpected.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is an out of the box idea. That's who President Trump is. That's why the American people elected

him. And his goal is lasting peace in the Middle East for all people in the region.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Some Republicans, meantime, are praising the idea, among them House Speaker Mike Johnson, who called it a bold move to ensure peace in the

region.

Nic Robertson joins me now.

Nic, as we look at all of this, there are some questions, right? Number one, in terms of there is the immediate backlash that we saw in terms of

the president's comments. There are also a lot of real questions about what he actually meant here and whether this is sort of floating a plan to then

try to get at something else.

What is the impact today in the region?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: It is a lot of loud pushback. It is pushback from United States' partners and allies, Jordan

and Egypt, who would be the principal countries, according to President Trump, who would take a lot of those Palestinians coming out of Gaza.

They've pushed back. They reject it.

We heard very quickly from the Saudis and other Arab countries saying, they stick to their guns on if Israel wants normalization with Saudi Arabia,

then there has to be a two-state solution. They are not connecting it to President Trump saying that the United States would take ownership and

everyone would leave.

And the reason they are not connecting it is because behind the scenes, they're saying it is obvious. If you exit 2.1 million Palestinians from

Gaza, you have no two-state solution. It should be obvious. That's the essence of that message.

You've heard pushback from the British prime minister and the House of Parliament today, saying that the Palestinians have a right to go back to

their homes, a right to rebuild their homes, and people should be supporting them and helping them do that. The French also pushed back.

So wide pushback. But there is that big question, right? Is this a negotiating position? We sort of heard some of that from the White House

spokesperson earlier on, indicating that may be the case. But President Trump's big idea is out of the box. It is in the open. It is being

examined.

And this in and of itself, the idea that there could be discussion about wholesale removal of the population from Gaza, according to some, a war

crime, is a radical shift in itself.

I think a lot of people now are waiting to see what else does President Trump have to say about it? Marco Rubio seemed to indicate that this was a

good offer. The people didn't really have to leave their homes forever. They just had to step aside and let the clearance, and the implication was

that people would come back.

Of course, that isn't what President Trump said. It looks messy. The feedback is coming in. I think, yes, the region is waiting to see what

happens next.

HILL: And I think you bring up such a great point as to whether this is, you know, in the way that we have seen Donald Trump do things. Is this sort

of his opening salvo? But to start off here and to cause such disruption, such concern, such anger, frankly in the region seems an interesting place

to start.

It was fascinating as well to watch the reaction of Prime Minister Netanyahu in real time.

[16:05:10]

ROBERTSON: Yes, I mean, he looked happy, but stunned and you don't know what's happening behind-the-scenes in the closed door part of the meeting,

and I think, you know, Prime Minister Netanyahu was expecting on some points to maybe have tough conversations with President Trump.

Look, I think this is a maximalist position, right? If we are talking about it, negotiating positions, everyone, every Palestinian in Gaza has to

leave, maximalist position. What is the other position? We don't know what that is.

Presumably, it is part of phase two and phase three of the negotiation, which what does it say? We don't know. Is it telling -- Israel has made it

very clear that they cannot tolerate Hamas there at all. So does Hamas have to leave? Does the Palestinian population have to say, we want to go back

to our homes? You Hamas need to get out, clear out. All of that is likely. Is it a message to the region about reconstruction?

It is a maximalist position and we just don't know what the next move is, and presumably that comes when President Trump analyzes what he is hearing

back from his bigger partners, his most important partners like Saudi.

HILL: And in terms of what he is hearing back, I mean, as we have continued to say, the response was swift. There is also legitimate concerns that this

could actually grow support for Hamas.

ROBERTSON: If you push Hamas out of Gaza, they are still within, you know, fingertip distance of the border with Israel. They end up in Egypt. It has

got a border with Israel. They end up in Jordan, that's got a border with Israel.

You're moving the problem to another part of Israel's border. You're also potentially destabilizing your allies. Both Egypt and Jordan, absolutely

rely on huge amounts of US support -- money, aid -- all of that to exist.

The Egyptians are hugely important. The Jordanians are hugely important to US foreign policy, the western foreign policy in general. If you tip Hamas

and other hardcore Islamists into Egypt, out of Gaza, then they still remain a problem and they potentially destabilize Egypt, which is a bulwark

of support for western policy and movements in the region.

And the same for Jordan, if you destabilize Jordan, then you potentially allow Iranian proxies to get even closer to Israel's border.

You are exporting a problem, you're not, as far as we know at the moment, because President Trump didn't name any of the two or three other countries

that he mentioned might be involved. You're not moving the problem ways away, you're not putting handcuffs on Hamas. The problem exists, and it is

going to destabilize your allies and those allies have been, until now, a major and important part of stabilizing the region that the US has worked

with to achieve that.

And counterterrorism, that's been a big part of it as well for these allies.

HILL: Yes, absolutely. Nic Robertson, appreciate it. Thank you.

Well, many Palestinians in Gaza are determined to remain in the heavily damaged territory. One resident telling CNN he would rather eat the rubble

left behind than be forced to leave.

Here is CNN's Jeremy Diamond with more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): In the ruins of Gaza, Sammy Ramadan (ph) is determined to clear the rubble where his home once stood,

and he is determined to stay.

(SAMMY RAMADAN speaking in foreign language.)

DIAMOND (voice over): "We will not leave. Occupation and colonization will vanish, and we will stay," he says. "As long as we live on this land, we

will stay. We will die here, even if in a tent, I will live in the ruins of my home."

Like so many here, he swiftly rejected President Trump's proposal to permanently displace Gaza's two million Palestinians in favor of a US

takeover, and the president's rationale for doing so.

TRUMP: What's the alternative? Go where? There is no other alternative. If they had an alternative, they'd much rather not go back to Gaza and live in

a beautiful alternative that's safe.

DIAMOND (voice over): But hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have decided to return to their homes. Alongside tents pitched amid the rubble,

they have already begun to rebuild. They say they are undeterred by the scale of the destruction.

(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE speaking in foreign language.)

DIAMOND (voice over): "I don't care what Trump says or anyone else. Look, my house is completely destroyed. There is not even a roof. But here I am.

I am staying."

Jordan and Egypt, the two countries Trump is pushing to accept Palestinian refugees, reiterating that Palestinians must be able to remain in Gaza amid

what will be a years' long reconstruction.

While Trump says his proposal is a humanitarian one, human rights experts call it a crime against humanity.

NOUR ERAKAT, HUMAN RIGHTS ATTORNEY AND PROFESSOR, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY: Their removal is equivalent to their forced exile, permanent and forced exile,

the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the denial of their return, which is already a Palestinian condition.

[16:10:02]

DIAMOND (on camera): So there is no question in your mind that what President Trump is suggesting here is ethnic cleansing.

ERAKAT: There should be no question in anybody's mind. Trump is saying it himself that this is about the removal of Palestinians. He is calling Gaza

a home to 2.3 million people, a home to an indigenous people, a demolition site, because the US funded that demolition by air, by sea, by ground.

And now, in order to complete the project, they want to remove Palestinians altogether and then to claim ownership of it.

DIAMOND (voice over): Trump's proposal is being heralded on the right wing of Israeli politics, where lawmakers have long pushed for the forcible

displacement of Palestinians.

BEZALEL SMOTRICH ISRAEL FINANCE MINISTER (through translator): Those who carried out the most horrific massacre on our land will find themselves

losing their land forever.

Now, with God's help, we will work to permanently bury the dangerous idea of a Palestinian state.

DIAMOND: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu calling trumps proposal worth pursuing. But even as he stopped short of a full-throated

endorsement, Netanyahu's broad smile said it all, he and the new US president now speaking the same language.

Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Tel Aviv.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: I want to bring in now my colleague, Jeff Zeleny, who joins us from the White House.

Jeff, this was the focus of a number of questions at today's White House briefing, questions being asked of the press secretary, specifically

whether this was about a temporary or a permanent proposed removal for these more than two million Palestinians from Gaza.

And also questions about US troops on the ground. How much more clarity do we have following that briefing?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Erica, there is no doubt a day after the president made that announcement, which really

shocked some of his White House and most of Washington and indeed the world, the White House and advisers are scrambling to sort of put a policy

and an explanation behind the president's words.

Normally, it is reversed, a policy is written and it goes up the chain rather than down the chain. However, the White House Press Secretary,

Karoline Leavitt, today used the word "temporarily" again and again. That is not the language that the president used last evening in the East Room

here at the White House.

He was calling for a permanent resettlement of Palestinians. The White House press secretary today saying a temporary resettlement that

Palestinians could come back. That's the same word that officials were telling Republican senators on Capitol Hill as they were privately briefing

them.

But one question hanging over all of this is the even mention of the commitment of sending US forces into the region. President Trump has long

talked about his disbelief in never ending wars, as he describes them, and foreign entanglements, but left the door open to the possibility of sending

troops to the region.

I asked the White House press secretary again today about this, and she again did not close the door to that. She said, it is indeed a negotiating

tactic.

So, Erica, the bottom line to all of this is the president, we are told, is frustrated by the decades, indeed of centuries of, you know, a lack of

movement in the region. He is not as appreciative of this history as most American presidents have been.

So he wants to throw a proposal out, but he said, everyone loves it. We know this much, that is not true. Jordan, the other neighbors in the region

were blistering in their criticism. He will come face-to-face with the Jordanian leader next week who visits the White House.

Of course, this will be front and center -- Erica.

HILL: Yes, it certainly will, Jeff. Appreciate it. Thank you.

ZELENY: Sure.

HILL: Well, meantime, Donald Trump is also scaling up his efforts to purge the US federal workforce. The CIA now offering so-called buyouts to all of

its employees. A closer look next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:16:33]

HILL: Donald Trump's effort to purge the federal workforce now targeting the CIA. The agency offering so-called buyouts to all of its employees. If

they were to take the offer and quit, they're told that they will receive about eight months of pay and benefits. Employees across the federal

government have been offered similar deals.

An official says some 20,000 people have taken them so far and says the number is rapidly growing. A number of employees, though, have expressed

concern about the legality and the validity of those buyouts.

John Miller joining me now from New York.

So when we look at just sort of the latest in the list here, all CIA employees, John, put that in perspective for me, if you would, from both a

National Security perspective and an Intelligence perspective.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, let's look at it three ways then. All CIA employees being offered a buyout

basically take the money and leave, this happens at a time when Intelligence professionals, including the former deputy director of the

CIA, have been writing articles about how in the threat condition America faces right now, even in the counterterrorism realm, all lights are

blinking red.

So it raises question one, is this really the time to be shedding employees? Which goes into question two, Erica, which is in the realm of

buyouts, the people who usually move to take the buyouts are going to be the more experienced people who have capability and a level of confidence

that they will be able to get a job after taking the buyout somewhere else, which kind of leaves you as a manager with the people who don't have other

options or as you might say, the dead weight.

And the third piece is one of the messages in the buyout pitch that are going to all these federal agencies is you have the chance to take the

buyout now, but after that, there is going to be staff reductions that amounts to layoffs. Do you really want to be talking about staff reductions

and layoffs to the people who have been read into some of our most closely guarded secrets and may be cast out onto the street and unhappy at a time

when foreign adversaries are very busy trying to recruit spies who have secrets in America?

So it is being looked at as a bit of a jolt to the Intelligence community.

HILL: Yes, and also, I mean, to your point about the potential to recruit perhaps some disgruntled employees, but also the potential to exploit this

vulnerability in the United States and, frankly, even around the world -- John.

MILLER: Well, it is, and when you look at what are the alternatives, there is this plan unfolding within the Trump administration where these messages

going to places like the FBI, which in and of itself is also a National Security organization, say we are reducing the federal workforce A.; B, we

are going to be expanding the military.

So if you leave here or take this buyout, there could be opportunities there later in civilian or other roles. And see if you don't take these

opportunities now, there could be layoffs, but we are going to be hiring at-will employees. That means people not protected by civil service

protections where they can interview them on issues of loyalty to get hired and fire them without needing a reason or a process.

So what they are looking for is kind of what Stephen Miller said on Friday, the deputy White House chief-of-staff for policy on the White House lawn

said, the Intelligence Community and the FBI is where we need to "clean the ranks."

[16:20:10]

And that appears to be what they are gearing up to do.

HILL: In terms of cleaning the ranks, you bring up, as you bring up the FBI, too, I did want to ask you about this. So in a memo that was sent by

Emil Bove, we are going on clarifying this memo as we are hearing more and more about what they want to know about those who worked on some of these

January 6th investigations, saying "No FBI employee who simply followed orders and carried out their duties in an ethical manner with respect to

January 6th investigations, is at risk of termination or other penalties," going on to say, "The only individuals who should be concerned about the

process are those who acted with corrupt or partisan intent."

And it also went on to talk about those who blatantly defied orders from department leadership or exercise discretion in weaponizing the FBI. That

sounds like a little bit of a threat in some of that language, too, and also rather subjective.

MILLER: Well, exactly, Erica, I mean, what that has is a lot of complicated wording and what it lacks is a specific allegation that something happened

that was illegal or outside the process.

And what was Emil Bove, the acting deputy attorney general, who recently was Donald Trump's criminal lawyer, where he was charged with various

crimes, what was he asking for? His complaint was, you didn't comply with what I asked for, which is I wanted the names and what you gave us was

employee numbers and the answers to these questions.

Why do they want the names? And that's something where you can only speculate. What's the difference between having the employee numbers, where

you could refer that to a process, like giving it to the Department of Justice inspector general to conduct an investigation? That's why you have

an inspector general.

Or do they want the names to run them through databases and determine, are they registered Democrats? Are they registered Republicans? Here is what

their name is and where they live. Can we look at their social media and determine what their leanings are?

Why do they want the names? And to many of the FBI agents, most of whom are likely Republicans and many of whom voted for Donald Trump, the nervous

discussions going on is when they get my name, what are they going to do with it? They have worries that they're going to be released, that they'll

be doxed, that there will be protesters at their house, or that they're going to be investigated not for alleged violations, but for First

Amendment protected things like speech and political leanings.

HILL: There is a whole lot going on at the moment, that is for sure. John Miller, appreciate it. As always, my friend. Thank you.

MILLER: Thanks, Erica.

HILL: Well, federal employees who do not accept buyout offers, as John was just noting, could risk losing their jobs. A White House official say

Donald Trump is in fact, planning widespread layoffs.

Elon Musk is spearheading these efforts, of course, to shrink the government. And if it sounds familiar, well, it should, because a lot of

these moves echo exactly what we saw from Elon Musk after taking over Twitter in 2022.

In fact, former twitter employees who lived through that takeover have some advice now for government workers.

Here is Clare Duffy.

CLARE DUFFY, CNN BUSINESS WRITER: Yes, Erica, a lot of former Twitter employees say they're having deja vu, watching what Elon Musk is doing

inside of the government.

Of course, one of the things that has been most striking is just the speed with which Musk has come in and tried to cut costs, cut staff, cut entire

departments.

You'll remember that when he took over Twitter, it was just days before he had laid off most of the company's senior executives, and 50 percent of the

staff and one former employee told us that this is in keeping with Musk's sort of algorithm for change.

The first step of which, this employee said is to question every requirement. Assume that every requirement that anybody ever gives you is

dumb. Question it, eliminate it wherever possible, and basically ask, do we even need this thing? Should we? Should we even have it to begin with and

to start cutting from there?

We are now hearing that former Twitter employees are offering advice to federal government workers, both publicly and quietly, about everything

from how to communicate securely with other colleagues on platforms like Signal, to more personal advice about how to navigate this kind of

upheaval.

Yao Yue, a former principal software engineer at Twitter, posted on X. She said, "Don't comply without question. Don't fold over in advance. Find

small routines that anchor you and make you feel in control, even just for a few moments each day."

Now, federal employees have until tomorrow to decide whether to take the buyout offer that has been offered to them. But I think there is a big

question about whether they can actually count on that money.

I spoke with Shannon Liss-Riordan, who is the attorney, who has represented many of the former Twitter employees that have sued the company over

alleged unpaid severance. The company, of course, has pushed back on that. But she has questioned whether Trump has actually received the approval

needed to make this kind of buyout offer.

She said she is hearing already from federal government employees with questions and what she is telling them is basically, you need to decide

what is in your best interests, and there is no way to predict exactly how this is going to come out.

I did hear from OPM, and they said essentially that if the government were to renege on its promises here, that employees resignations would be moot.

[16:25:08]

But I think there is a big question about whether they can really count on that promise -- Erica.

HILL: Yes, absolutely. Clare Duffy reporting for us.

Clare, thank you.

Well, the whole of Sweden is in mourning. That is the message today from Sweden's King following what has been called the worst mass shooting in

Swedish history.

Flags across the country at half-staff after a gunman opened fire at an adult education center, killing at least 10 people. Several others were

wounded. Police say it does appear the shooter then took his own life.

As my colleague Melissa Bell reports, authorities at this point are still working to piece together the tragedy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A nation in mourning, left reeling after an afternoon of horror on Tuesday.

ULF KRISTERSSON, SWEDISH PRIME MINISTER (through translator): We have today seen brutal, deadly violence against completely innocent people. This is

the worst mass shooting in Swedish history.

At least 10 people killed With more injured in a massacre at an adult school in the city of Orebro, Central Sweden. Witnesses spoke of bangs and

screams from inside the building as the rampage unfolded.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): A guy next to me was shot in the shoulder. He was bleeding a lot. When I looked behind me, I saw three

people on the floor bleeding. Everyone was shocked.

The police were not on site and neither was the ambulance, so we had to help.

BELL (voice over): Authorities now believe the perpetrator found dead at the scene shot himself. Police have ruled out terror or gang violence as

possible motives.

DISTRICT CHIEF ROBERT EID FOREST (through translator): There is much to suggest that it is a solitary act. And that's the picture we have right

now.

BELL (voice over): Sweden has grappled with gang related violent crime in recent years, but scenes like those at Orebro are rare. Such violence in a

school has stunned the country.

In the words of the prime minister, a darkness fell over Sweden on Tuesday night and as dawn broke, a tide of questions and grief to come.

Melissa Bell, CNN. Orebro.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: President Trump's immigration crackdown now intensifying. Well take a closer look at the impact on businesses across the US.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:30:32]

HILL: Hello. I'm Erica Hill.

There's more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS in a moment when U.S. immigration raids have been stepped up across the country. I'm going to speak with the leader

of a trade group who says construction workers are now worried about going to work. And the U.S. Postal Service briefly paused, accepting packages

being sent from China following one of the latest Trump orders. We'll explain why. Before that, the headlines this hour.

President Trump just signed an executive order banning transgender athletes from competing in women's sports. The issue was a central topic in his

campaign. Mr. Trump has already signed orders banning transgender people from serving in the military, and made it U.S. government policy to

recognize only two genders, male and female.

Protesters gathered in cities across the U.S. to denounce President Trump following his first two weeks back in office. The online movement was

organized under the hashtag "50501," which is shorthand for 50 states, 50 protests, one day. Many of those protesters carried signs against Project

2025, a hard right playbook for reshaping the U.S. government.

Guatemala's president is pledging to allow a 40 percent increase in deportation flights from the United States. He made that announcement when

speaking alongside U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio. Guatemala also agreed to create a border control task force to fight international crime.

Mexico's National Guard said troops have begun arriving at its northern border to stop the flow of migrants and drugs into the U.S. The troop surge

was promised by Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum after U.S. President Trump threatened crippling tariffs. Mexico, it's important to note, has

sent troops to the border before, in 2021, at the request of former President Biden.

U.S. officials say raids near Denver, Colorado, were targeting members of a Venezuelan gang. The Drug Enforcement Agency releasing this video of what

it says are agents serving a warrant outside of apartments. And immigrants' rights groups said the agents asked people for their identification and

also their residency status.

The stepped up enforcements are raising concerns around the country. Even in states where President Trump is popular.

John King spoke with people in Nebraska about the impact of these immigration policies.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Nebraska Prairie, it's calm and quiet as the rolling farmlands wait out winter.

UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: This is what our community looks like.

KING: But even here, the new Trump agenda stirs passion and fear.

UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Love over hate.

KING: Immigrant workers are critical in a state where cattle outnumber people by more than 3 to 1. Nebraska is second to Texas in U.S. beef

production, sixth in pork, and its Cornhusker State nickname celebrates its role as an agriculture giant.

JOHN HANSEN, PRESIDENT, NEBRASKA FARMERS UNION: If we have a hitch in the get along in Nebraska, it's a big enough processing state, it's going to be

felt in the food chain.

KING: By hitch and the get along, Nebraska Farmers Union president John Hansen means a Trump immigration crackdown that rounds up undocumented

workers.

HANSEN: Do we need better enforcement? I think we do. There's a constructive way to do it, and there's a less than constructive way to do

it. And so it remains to be seen how we proceed.

KING: This is a red state, and its Republican governor is offering support if the Trump White House puts Nebraska on its immigration crackdown list.

Fear is the word you hear most from immigrants, even those with legal status.

GIN, NEBRASKA RESIDENT: His first term was more of like, let's see if this can happen. This year is more I'm going to do it.

KING: Gin has a green card now and is working toward citizenship but he has family and friends who are undocumented. And he asked that we not use his

full name.

GIN: It's a scary time for my community, for people I care for, basically are not lucky enough like I am.

KING: Rumors of ICE activity spread fast, as did word that agents can now enter schools and churches.

GIN: Starts up people getting scared. Basically it starts off like, have you seen immigration? Have you seen this? And you see the fear in people's

eyes, just the fact that they can't go out to the store, they can't go get groceries or even hospitals. It's just a hard time.

KING: Immigrant advocates like Mary Choate say clients are worried now about sending their children to school or showing up for English classes

and other services.

MARY CHOATE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR LEGAL IMMIGRATION ASSISTANCE: We really want to keep immigrants and refugees involved in the community

because they're so integral to our community. But it's been very difficult for them to be able to do that because they fear going outside of their

homes.

[16:35:08]

KING: G is seeking asylum. She was a journalist back home in Honduras targeted by the government, she says, after reports detailing corruption.

G, ASYLUM SEEKER (through translator): If I go back to Honduras they will kill me.

KING: She entered the states a year ago using a Biden administration phone app that Trump eliminated on day one.

Your lawyers tell you you're in the asylum process and you should be OK. But with Trump as president, are you worried?

G (through translator): Of course, for sure.

KING: Why?

G (through translator): Because he tries to implement quite strict policies with immigrants in general. And I think even more with people who have just

entered the country. At least with the program I entered with, there is some instability, so to speak. So of course that increases anxiety and

concern.

With Trump's arrival, I have felt very unstable. I have a lot of anxiety. I suffer from insomnia and I cannot stop thinking about the possibility of

being deported.

I cannot go back.

KING (voice-over): Nebraska State Senator Kathleen Kauth is pushing a new E-Verify law that requires employers to certify their workers are legal,

simple and common sense, she says. But Kauth concedes the polarized national debate might make it harder to win over Democrats.

KATHLEEN KAUTH (R), NEBRASKA STATE SENATE: I'm really more worried about Nebraska and focusing on what do we need in Nebraska to understand the

problem, how do we make sure that we are keeping people who are not here legally from taking jobs from people who are here?

KING: Kauth believes the state can handle any workforce disruption caused by stronger enforcement, and she is a state example of the Trump effect on

the Republican Party. Any path to status or citizenship for those already here illegally must start with going home.

KAUTH: I kind of view it as a poison apple from the poison tree. Whatever the legal definition is. If your first act is to break the law, you have

become a criminal. And so therefore everything after, even if it's well- intentioned, even if it's wonderful, please go back and go through the process because we do want you here, but we need you to do it the right

way. And I don't think that that should ever change.

KING: Go back is the driving theme of the new Republican immigration push, and a big reason more immigrants think it's best to stay in the shadows.

John King, CNN, Lincoln, Nebraska.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: Well, some employers are on high alert for tighter immigration enforcement. Hospitality, construction, agriculture are the industries

believed to be most vulnerable here. Companies that fail to verify their worker status could also face thousands of dollars in fines if they are

found in violation of employment law.

George Carrillo is the co-founder and CEO of the Hispanic Construction Council and joins me now.

George, it's good to have you with us this afternoon. We just heard -- I'm not sure if you could hear my colleague John King's piece, but he spoke

with a state lawmaker in Nebraska who said she believes her state can handle any sort of disruption that may come in a number of different

industries because of immigration enforcement.

Is that what you're hearing across the country?

GEORGE CARRILLO, COFOUNDER AND CEO, HISPANIC CONSTRUCTION COUNCIL: So what I'm hearing across the country is that there's worry amongst business

owners. Right now as a nation we have to understand, we're about 1.7 million people short in this country when it comes to the workforce and in

the construction industry we're short about a half a million.

Our organization has been working very closely with Congress. We've been reaching out to both Republicans and Democrats to really educate them on

the impact of mass immigration and what that's going to do with our economy. I think sometimes what is surprising is that people really aren't

understanding what that impact is. They fail to recognize and see the value of immigrants in our community.

And what they're looking at only is this one area of punitive punishment because they came over the border illegally, regardless of what their

intention is. I think as an organization, what I do know is that we want to see safe communities. We want to see our borders being reinforced. We want

people to respect our laws, but we also understand and we acknowledge all of the hard work and passion that our immigrant community provides. Our

undocumented immigrants. There's so many that are there that are great workers. They're great family members and citizens. You know, we go to

church with them. We work with them. We want them to be able to remain here.

And we believe that there is a pathway to be able to do this in a dignified way that provides that ability, either through a work visa program, without

detrimenting our economy and making everybody come back and come through already a broken immigration process.

HILL: You mentioned the potential for that program that you've been speaking with members on both sides of the aisle in Congress. Where are

those conversations actually getting you? Is there an appetite for something like that?

[16:40:05]

CARRILLO: Well, the appetite that we're telling them is that, look, for the first time in history, Hispanics elected this president and this Congress.

We were a major driver, and we elected them because we think that they're going to be able to provide change, good, comprehensive, holistic change.

And so we're bringing that to everybody's, you know, radar of the impact of the Hispanic community.

We are tired to see both Democrats and Republicans kick this can down the street and over administration, over administration and generation and

generation we see this instability in our community and not acknowledging the contributions that we contribute.

There is a solution, though, out there, and that's the dignity act. Let's get that -- the dignity act back on the floor. Let's have Congress pass it

and let's get it to the president's desk.

HILL: OK. Correct me if I'm wrong on these numbers, but what I have is of the 4.3 million workers that you represent, about 18 percent to 20 percent,

roughly about 900,000 of them are estimated to be undocumented. I know there have been multiple reports. I'm sure you're hearing it about workers

who are concerned about showing up. They're worried about raids. They're worried about what could happen.

Should employers be facing more of the consequences for employing undocumented workers?

CARRILLO: Well, I think everybody from employers to the government to unions, everybody has benefited from undocumented workers. And for some,

they've taken advantage. And for the people that have taken advantage of undocumented workers by not paying them appropriate wages or not even

paying them at all, there should be some punitive action on them, regardless of their status. If someone produces good work, they should be

paid for that work.

And when I think of for small business owners, the process that everybody goes through, everybody goes through a hiring process. Everybody is trying

to complete the job that's, you know, put before them. But do we put the ownership on only the small business owner, or do we start putting some of

that ownership onto our government because they haven't been able to provide us with a stable workforce, they haven't provided solutions to our

immigration? They haven't provided immigration reform since Reagan.

HILL: When you push them on that, the lack of action, the fact that, and we have seen this from both parties and we have seen it frankly for decades

now. This can getting kicked down the road and immigration is a massive problem. There is not one solution that's going to fix everything. Again,

just real quickly before I let you go, what is your message to those lawmakers in terms of why they can't get things done?

CARRILLO: So what I'm asking lawmakers is, look, there's a solution on the table. The dignity Act of 2023, which was actually started by Republican

Congresswoman Salazar from Miami. Let's get that out of committee. Let's present that on the floor.

There is a solution here. The Republican Party can take advantage of this moment and create history here and pass legislation and come up with good

legislative reform, a bill that provides balance of honoring our laws, securing our borders, but also showing the world that we continue to be the

superpower by having that empathy for the hard-working people that are contributing to our economy every single day.

Let's give them a work visa. For our Dreamers, let's put this to rest. They were -- they may not have been born here, but guess what? This is the only

home that they know and they honor this country. And so let's honor them back and give them a pathway toward citizenship. And let's stop kicking

this can down the road.

HILL: George Carrillo, appreciate your time today. Thank you.

CARRILLO: Thank you so much.

HILL: Pam Bondi is now the U.S. attorney general, and she is wasting no time getting to work, rolling back to Biden-era policies. We'll take a

closer look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:47:00]

HILL: A change in drinking habits helping to push liquor giant Diageo to scrap its ambitious growth target. Shares for the company at a five-year

low on the heels of Tuesday's earnings report. Diageo is down about 10 percent this week in New York.

Folks in the U.S. and the U.K., it's important to note, have been scaling back their alcohol consumption. A new strategy with a rather unusual name

could actually encourage more drinkers to join that sober curious revolution.

Here's CNN's Anna Stewart.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNA STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A drink in the pub is at the heart of British culture, but the way people drink is changing. To survive,

the industry needs to understand how, apparently, people zebra stripe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is zebra striping? I don't know. Is it the thing you put on a black and white horse?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some form of dance? No, no idea.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I would imagine is painting something in black and white, but apart from that, I don't really know.

STEWART: So say you're going to start the night drinking beer. This would be your black stripe. Then your next drink would be nonalcoholic. We have a

nonalcoholic gin and tonic here. This is your white stripe. And then perhaps for your next drink, go back to alcohol. Nice glass of red wine.

Another black stripe. Simple.

(Voice-over): It's a tactic to moderate drinking that's becoming more popular. More than half of U.S. and U.K. consumers are likely to zebra

stripe in January, and 61 percent are either definitely or likely to moderate alcohol this way in 2025. But are people actually using the term?

BEN BRANSON, FOUNDER, SEEDLIP: I've not come across anyone saying, actually, tonight, I'm zebra striping. It's not catchy. I'm here going, oh,

I don't like the phrase, but I don't have a better one. But I think the ritual and behavior of alternating is brilliant. That's what you call

moderation.

STEWART: Ben Branson was at the forefront of the non-drinking drinks industry when Seedlip was launched in 2015, billed as the world's first

nonalcoholic spirit. At the time, he had a lot of pushback.

BRANSON: This is never going to sell. This is a ridiculous idea. What is the point? We don't need nonalcoholic options. And so you fast forward to

there being a thousand brands, a $23 billion category, global, growing, exciting.

STEWART: Diageo is now the majority shareholder of Seedlip, and all the major players are invested in the alcohol-free space, promoting options for

when people mix it up.

BRANSON: We saw this play out with Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, where sugar was concerned, probably back in the '90s. The big companies see what's going

on, I'm sure. I don't think they're worried, I think they are just working out how and where and when to -- yes, to get involved.

[16: 50:00]

STEWART: Zebra striping, as a term, may still be earning its stripes. Not everyone is convinced.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have an alcoholic drink, then you have a nonalcoholic drink, then you have a nonalcoholic drink, and so on and so

forth. What is the point?

STEWART: But the wider shift away from traditional drinking isn't going away.

Anna Stewart, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: There you go. A little food or drink, as it were, for thought. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: The U.S. Postal Service is resuming package deliveries from China and Hong Kong following a brief suspension on Tuesday. The real issue here is

trying to figure out how to address President Trump's ban on what's known as the de minimis exemption. That's a rule in the U.S., which allows

packages valued at less than $800 to enter the U.S. without inspection or additional duties being charged.

More than 1.3 billion shipments fell into that category during the last fiscal year, many of them coming from China.

Here's CNN's Marc Stewart with more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As the U.S. implements more China focused measures the Chinese government is making it clear it will defend itself.

At one point, the United States Postal Service suspended the shipment of international packages from China and Hong Kong, something that could have

disrupted the business models of Chinese global e-commerce giant Shein and Temu, but withdrew the suspension only several hours later.

Nevertheless, the Trump administration has closed a tax exemption that largely helped Chinese e-retailers shipping items to American consumers, a

move that could raise prices in the U.S. The back and forth comes as the U.S. and China find themselves in the middle of a trade fight with the U.S.

making the first move implementing tariffs on China. China then retaliating with tariffs of its own, an issue I brought up with a Chinese government

spokesperson here in Beijing. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

M. STEWART: Does China feel the United States will act in good faith moving forward?

LIN JIAN, SPOKESPERSON, CHINA'S MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (through translator): The United States has imposed a 10 percent tariff on Chinese

goods on the grounds of the fentanyl issue. China is strongly dissatisfied with this and firmly opposes it. The measures China has taken are necessary

to safeguard its legitimate rights and interests.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[16:55:01]

M. STEWART: Chinese officials repeated what they've said in the past about fentanyl, saying that they've provided help. But it's an American problem.

Despite a mention by President Trump about a phone call to take place between him and Chinese President Xi Jinping, Trump says he will speak with

Xi, but now says he's in no rush to do it. Government officials here in Beijing didn't hint at a timetable.

Marc Stewart, CNN, Beijing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: Just ahead here, the final numbers from Wall Street. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Wall Street overcoming a bit of a sluggish start to finish at or near session highs. The Dow gained 317 points. The S&P 500 picked up 0.4 percent

and the Nasdaq clawing its way into the green, helped in part by Nvidia. Shares of AMD and Alphabet both took a tumble after disappointing earnings.

Advanced Micro Devices fell 6 percent after its A.I. chip sales came in less than expected. Wednesday was actually its worst session since October.

Google, for its part, finishing about 7 percent lower. Investors were let down by its Cloud computing revenue.

That's going to do it for QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. I'm Erica Hill. "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right now.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

END