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Quest Means Business
Macron: EU Has To Be Ready To Act For Itself; AI Action Summit Underway In French Capital; Trump Plans New 25 Percent Tariff On Steel and Aluminum Imports; E.U. Says It Will Respond To Possible Trump Tariffs; DOGE Goes After Financial Regulator; OpenAI CEO Responds To Report Musk Wants To Buy Company. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired February 10, 2025 - 16:00 ET
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[16:00:16]
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Closing bell ringing on Wall Street. Strong session. Ringing the closing bell, an employee of JPMorgan,
been with the company for 40 years and is now retiring. I hope she gets a gold clock or something else than just to ring the bell, and the final
gavel, they always seem to manage to miss the gavel these days.
Those are the markets, and these are -- oh, there we go. There's a strong gavel. Isn't that nice? That's what you get after 40 years and a market has
gone up, so they obviously liked what they saw.
Tonight on QUEST MEANS BUSINESS, my one-on-one interview with the French President Emmanuel Macron. His fight to put innovation and ambition at the
heart of the European Union.
President Trump is promising 25 percent tariffs on steel and aluminum or aluminum, and we meet the head of the French startup trying to take on the
US and China in artificial intelligence.
Tonight, I am live in Dubai. It is Monday, it is February the 10th. I am Richard Quest in Dubai, in London, in New York, wherever we may join each
other, I mean business.
Good evening.
Tonight, the French president tells us that Donald Trump's election is a wake-up call and Europe must be able to act on its own.
I spoke to President Macron last Thursday ahead of today's Paris AI Summit. The president said Europe needs to fight for itself. And importantly, there
is no time to procrastinate.
Mr. Macron is taking steps towards boosting Europe's firepower in the AI race. He announced a hundred billion dollar investment in the sector that
would kick off the Summit.
So President Macron has two-and-a-half years remaining in office. He told me improving European competitiveness on all aspects is his priority, his
top priority in the remaining time.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT: We are not in the race today, let's be clear as Europe, so my top priority is to say what? First, Europe has to
innovate. This is the first message.
We have to innovate, invest, accelerate -- my top priority. We have assets to do so. Europe is lagging behind. But in the current situation, France is
number one in Europe.
So for me, the objective of the Summit is to give an impetus and to have this wake-up call with new decision and acceleration of investment in order
to bridge it.
Having said that, our view is very clear. We want the best of the world, so we want our own research, our own startups to grow up and scale up. But we
want to team up as well with American, Indian, Gulf and Chinese players. Alibaba and Google will be here at the Summit.
QUEST: But your first part of your answer there basically encapsulated the Draghi Report into competitiveness and what Europe needs to do.
MACRON: Exactly.
QUEST: The issue with this is not the concept or the philosophy or policy, it is the execution.
MACRON: Exactly.
QUEST: And time and again, Europe has not managed to do it.
MACRON: Look --
QUEST: It is complicated.
MACRON: I think Europe is a unique political creation and by definition, you have to articulate 27 countries, so it is more heavy than just a one
single country. But having said that, when I look at the past period of time, we were super slow after the financial crisis in 2008 and 2010 to fix
the situation. It took much more time than in the US, and we killed a lot of potential growth by our divisions and because we were too slow.
Now look at the past few years, in COVID time, we were very efficient. We decided super rapidly. We protect much better than the US economy. We
reacted and innovate all together and took the right decision.
In front of the Russian War in Ukraine we were very united and we were super-fast. For the very first time in our history, right during the COVID,
two months after the beginning, we took the decision with Angela Merkel and afterwards, the 27, to issue a common debt. So, there is this possibility.
My point is to say now, with the new administration in the US, with the current tension between US and China, given the state of the world and this
huge revolution of AI, Europe has to accelerate.
Europe has to innovate and completely streamline its model. What does it mean? One --
[16:05:08]
QUEST: Well, if you say it has to -- you say it has to.
MACRON: We will do.
QUEST: That's the bit that I challenge you on.
MACRON: We'll do.
QUEST: Why?
MACRON: Because everybody now is sure about that. You mentioned Mario Draghi, my good friend, but we had the Draghi Report, the little report. We
had a common Franco-German paper in Meseberg last May. We are totally aligned.
You had now the mission statement of the new president of the Commission, von der Leyen, very clear, matter of execution.
February-March, we have to focus on killing some crazy regulations, simplification of the current environment. Europe has to simplify its
rules, make it much more business friendly and synchronize with the US.
Everything, which is a killer for competitiveness of the European industry, has to be reassessed, postponed, or cancelled -- first pillar.
The second pillar, National Security, European security. We have to protect. The US is protecting a lot of sectors vis-a-vis Europe and China.
We have to do the same in parallel, in order precisely not to be a market of consumers, but producers.
Third, we have to invest much more because today we are a paradise for savings. You have much more savings in Europe than in the US. Can you
imagine it? The problem is that we are not united, we are not efficient, and we overregulated this sector, meaning the savings is leaking to the US
economy and going to the financing of the equities.
By a very simple reform, solvency, Basel on this sector for insurance and banks, securitization program and the finalization in the months to come of
the capital market union, we can keep this savings channel, a large part of them on the equity in order to finance our economy and innovation.
When you launch a startup in AI or in mobility or whatever, you have to deal with 27 regulations. To unite all the system between the 27 is the
right way to proceed.
So here is the package. This is not a program. This is what in February, March, April, the commission will deliver. I spent two hours with the
President von der Leyen, last week and we are very clear on the roadmap.
We will have, in February, the first series of announcements by the Commission. In March, we will have a Council focused on competitiveness and
we will follow up.
On top of it --
QUEST: All right.
MACRON: -- we -- an AI agenda because we have to bridge the gap with the US and China on AI, otherwise we will consume, we will use the AI being
produced and invented in the US or China, but we will not be the one to control ours.
QUEST: So, let me just ask, how much has your thinking and your execution been put on turbocharge by the new administration and it is much more
muscular, some would say, brutal way in which it is basically saying we are going to do it. Europe, were going to do it anyway.
MACRON: Look, I will be very clear. I think the election of President Trump is as well, a wake-up call on top of the others for the Europeans. It means
you cannot procrastinate anymore.
So this is why I will work very hard to have obviously the backing of France, but some key countries with Ursula von der Leyen and her team in
order to deliver this package and this agenda.
QUEST: The idea is, though, Europe -- what we are really talking about on this is a change of mindset here that Europe, for example, as Draghi says,
can't have 27 champions in certain sectors. It is going to have to have a pan-European industrial AI policy. That is something that Europe has never
had and seems not to want to have.
MACRON: But guess what? It is the very first sector Europe has created, it didn't exist before. Guess what? Until we decided with Angela Merkel to
issue together a common debt, it didn't exist before. So we have in this moment where the unthinkable is happening, we have to deliver brand and
ambitious new things and big things.
If you take the last three decades, the GDP per capita increased two times more in the US than in Europe. It is incredible. And why? Because of the
lack of innovation and diffusion of this innovation.
So this is why for me, this is a top priority. And you're right, what does it mean? It means we have to simplify our organization and our program and
to say we are ready to invest in the best athletes in Europe and to say it will not be in your country, not in your country, but in this one.
QUEST: But we've got a problem and the problem could be tariffs and I raise that because the context, as you just said, you -- the president has
basically said tariffs are coming against Europe. You've already said that if and when they come, Europe will retaliate. That's a given, in a sense.
Are you expecting tariffs? Are you ready for them?
From my --
MACRON: Look, I think it is not the top priority in the current environment given all of the challenges we have.
[16:10:10]
We have to fix Ukraine. We have the situation in the Middle East. We have this competition between US and China, and we have all of this innovation
from AI to clean tech as well, to deliver.
Honestly, I don't think it should be the top priority. Nevertheless, what is the concern of President Trump? And you know that we have a very good
relation and we speak very regularly. He says, I am not happy with the situation with Europe because I have a trade deficit.
When you look at the situation, my first question to the US, is the European union your first problem? No, I don't think so. Your first problem
is China, so you should focus on the first problem.
Second, Europe is an ally for you. If you want Europe to be engaged on more investment on security and defense, if you want to help to develop, which
is, I think, is in the interest of the US. You should not hurt the European economies by threatening it with tariffs.
Third, the integration of the value chain between US and Europe is super high. What does it mean? It means if you put tariffs on a lot of sectors,
it will increase the costs and create inflation in the US. Is it what your people want? I am not so sure.
Fourth, it is very simple. When you look at the trade deficits you can have the figures mentioned by President Trump. But I insisted in my discussion
with him on some very small issues, look at the financial outflows. A lot of the European savings are going to finance the US economy. If you start
putting tariffs everywhere, you cut the links, it will not be good for the financing of the US economy.
Second, digital services. We are big, huge buyers of digital services. It is unfair not to take the digital services in the trade deficit and to say,
I have a trade deficit, but I don't speak about the digital services. You will keep buying them. Why? Why?
QUEST: Are you prepared to go head-to-head on this or toe-to-toe on this?
MACRON: I already did so and I will do it again, and I think we should be ready to, obviously, be in the room and react. But I think more than that,
the European union has to be ready to deliver what we want and what we need for ourselves.
QUEST: Can I suggest to you that the European Union is not fit for purpose when it comes to dealing with something like President Trump, who is
threatening tariffs and basically saying my way or the highway?
MACRON: I think it could be the opposite when you have direct contact and you are clear. I think the European Union should not be the one to wait for
the initiative of the others and just react.
What we have to do is to act for ourselves and to tell our people this is our project, this is what we want. This is why, for me, the top priority of
Europe is competitiveness agenda, it is defense and security agenda, it is AI ambition, and let's go fast for ourselves.
If in the meanwhile we have tariff issue, we will discuss them and we will fix it.
QUEST: Competitiveness. How much -- is that your big push now? Is that what your goal is for your last two years to really put all your capital --
political capital, all your energy, and are you the right person to do this now?
MACRON: Look, first, I was elected by my people two years ago and two-and- a-half years ago.
QUEST: Yes.
MACRON: Re-elected, and I have a mandate for five years. So, I mean, you have the legitimacy because this is a democratic system and people choose
the leader.
And I think it is best than other systems. I still believe that democracy is probably the best possible system or the less harmful one.
Second, I will fight till the very end, till the last second, till the last minute, I will fight. I will -- for my country, because this is my DNA. So
with the same energy, I will fight for more innovation, ambition, a stronger France, and a stronger Europe.
QUEST: Which first? France or Europe? First?
MACRON: I mean France first. I am elected by French people, but I do believe that the future of France is made of a stronger Europe as well.
So for me, it is so interlinked, but obviously I am elected by the French people and I am the French president. So I mean, it will always be France
first, but I really believe that the French agenda is intertwined with the European agenda.
When I spoke seven years ago about independence of Europe, strategic autonomy, everybody said, okay, are you the right guy to do so? Are you
sure? Yes, we did it.
Now everybody speaks about that in Europe. We issue common debt as Europeans, we reacted commonly vis-a-vis Russia.
[16:15:10]
QUEST: Are you ready for the fight?
MACRON: I am fighting, and I am ready for all the fights again and again, because this is a necessity. So you can count on me, I will fight for AI. I
will fight for wake-up call for competitiveness for Europe. I will fight for more defense and security answers as Europeans, and I will fight for
the maximum level of ambition on all these issues.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: The president of France, Emmanuel Macron, in a spirited discussion and the president's strategy is already paying off.
The UAE, of course, where I am here tonight in Dubai, the UAE has already agreed to invest up to $50 billion for a one gigawatt data center.
Now, Sheik Mohammed bin Zayed, the president of the UAE, met with President Macron only hours after I sat down with him. They were at the Elysee Palace
only hours after I sat down with him on Thursday.
Melissa Bell is in Paris, she joins me.
Melissa, we are watching the spirited way and the sort of enthusiasm of the president, which in many ways is his hallmark, but I am reminded of that
famous Mark Twain quote, you know, talk of mine -- his case political death is greatly exaggerated.
I mean, he looks like he is ready for this fight despite all his domestic problems and he is tying himself to AI.
MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: AI clearly his next battle and the lag that there is, he feels here in France and in Europe, he
wants to make amends for this 109 billion euro investment. These are private companies. You mentioned the UAE, that's part of it for that money
that will come, those investments that will come for that data park, but there is much more, and they come from foreign companies. They come from
French companies.
It hasn't solved his domestic political problems. We have a budget now in France, but still, the fear is that for the rest of his mandate, for all
his spirited talk, his hands are going to be relatively tied.
This, though, is an area in which he can make progress. And I think that was what was behind this Paris Summit, finding a way for Europe to attract
attention to itself and say, look, we don't want to be just consumers of AI, we want to be at the forefront of AI and that's very much what this is
about here in Paris this week -- Richard.
QUEST: Is there a feeling of grand statesman now for where he sees himself? He is still a fighter, but he has got a very difficult cohabitation of a
Parliament, it is about worse than that in many ways, it is difficult for him to get things done.
But if you look forward, he can very much be the big, if you like, the big power on the European stage, particularly as Germany is weakened.
BELL: Certainly, and I think that's exactly what this point is, that by making France a leader in this area, AI, where it hasn't been a leader,
where it has lagged behind, he can help to bring it into the 21st Century and make it relevant and add to European strength in this sector.
Of course, there are startups like Mistral that have been trying to make that case rather effectively, that there is room for smaller companies to
make inroads against the big American giants.
But certainly for Emmanuel Macron, who has always been remarkable, Richard, we've talked about this together before by his popularity and stature on
the world stage and his unpopularity here at home and the difficulties he has domestically, politically, the opposition he faces from both far left
and far right and frankly, the middle, much of the middle.
What he could do was stand on the world stage, attract these world leaders here and these tech giants to say, it is time to make your matter, and I
think, it is interesting that he has managed to do that this time, not just to allow investments -- announce investments, by the way, but also to speak
about the future more intellectually, about how AI should function.
Regulation, not regulation, more innovation. Where does Europe stand in that -- and trying to shift the dialogue.
QUEST: We will be hearing your interview with Mistral in just a moment or three, but finally, you've obviously been in his presence considerably
times. He is extremely charming, isn't he? He is extremely charming, elegant and very well read across his subject.
BELL: He is very well read amongst his subjects, and remarkably for a French leader, remarkably fluent in English, as you just heard. I think it
is a first in a French president that I've had a chance to come across before and that makes an important difference.
He is also, as you said, very forward looking. It is as you asked him about innovation. It is about competitiveness. It is about, this has not been the
French way so far.
And I think he came in on a platform, if you remember, 2017, of trying to do that. In many respects, he encountered all the difficulties that we've
talked about together, the yellow vests, the difficulties that France has in reforming itself and advancing.
[16:20:06]
This is a way of kind of to go above that and speak to private company interests and to a sector that we are told is going to define our future
and in which he believes, certainly that he can make all the difference, even getting around the sort of political gridlock that there is in France
and in much of Europe.
In fact, we've heard from European commissioners saying, look, we've heard the message come from Paris today. We need less regulation. Perhaps, we
need to cut back on red tape to allow Europe to compete in this field, as the United States and China do -- Richard.
QUEST: Thank you very much, Melissa. Thank you and good to talk to you tonight.
And of course, we will show you more of my meeting with Emmanuel Macron later this week, besides getting to meet Nemo, the dog, the president gave
me a tour of the French Palace, the Elysee Palace, where we saw the artwork of the Elysee and he told me what it was like to be president and walk
through those doors and see these magnificent rooms with the dog and see it all for the first time.
That's all still to come later in the week.
As you and I continue tonight, Donald Trump is expected to announce the new tariffs on steel and aluminum. I will talk about that in just a moment, for
US consumers and trading partners.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Donald Trump is expected to announce new tariffs on steel and aluminum in the next few hours. He told reporters aboard Air Force One on
Sunday, he'd be imposing a 25 percent levy on imports from all countries, all countries.
The US imports tens of millions of steel and aluminum every year. Shares in US Steel and aluminum companies surged on the news. Obviously, that's going
to make them extremely more profitable, and if you look at foreign companies like ArcelorMittal and Hyundai Steel, they obviously took the
brunt, although perhaps not as much as one might have expected.
Shares in European and Korean steel makers, they were also dropped sharply.
CNN's Jeff Zeleny is at the White House. To paraphrase that old movie, if today is Monday, this must be more tariffs.
I mean, are we going to get threats? Are we going to get actually tariffs or just put your finger in the air and see which way the wind is blowing?
[16:25:00]
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It is a great question because it was just a week or so ago today that those threats of
tariffs against Mexico and Canada were dangled out, and then they were paused for a month. So, it is unclear. We will take this hour by hour.
But the president, as you were showing there, he was talking about new tariffs on a steel and aluminum and we have reason to believe he will do
that because he did that actually eight years ago.
This is one of the consistent sort of strains of thought that he generally has. The question here, though, we are not exactly sure on the timing of
it, the day is running short here, so it may not happen yet this afternoon.
But the broader question is if this helps domestic steel production, does it raise prices on other things? And that is exactly what happened during
his first time in the White House.
So the broader economic question is slightly uncertain, but once again, this sounds like a week of tariffs, of trade wars. You talked about
reciprocal ones on other nations as well.
So we will have to see because its often difficult to decipher or determine between the threat and the actual tariff.
QUEST: Okay, give me a bit of insight here because as I've been following it for the last three weeks, it seems haphazard. He will sort of scratch
and think and say, and then something follows.
But is there a feeling of a spider's web of activity that it is coordinated? So you had the Consumer Board, you had USAID, you've got the
pennies, you've got this, you've got that. But actually somebody back in that building behind you is plotting and planning all the various
machinations of it.
ZELENY: I think history will be our best guide on this. And no, there is not a grand strategy of, oh, we are going to do pennies, we are going to do
steel, we are going to do this and that.
A lot of it is what is top of mind. Some of it is a distraction from other things. But look, I mean, by and large, the economic agenda in terms of
placing tariffs is something that he is keen on doing.
The timing, though, is a bit less predictable because talking about it yesterday, we have no idea when it would go into effect. Like last week,
for example, just on the brink of these new tariffs with Mexico and Canada, the time evaporated and he said we will put a pause on it for a month or
so.
So there is very much of a sense of anticipation and that is the strategy to keep everyone sort of off balance, if you will. But they will likely
come sometime. When that will be, it is anyone's guess.
QUEST: Jeff Zeleny at the White House, I am grateful. Thank you.
Youve got your work cut out for you for the next four and a half years or four years.
Now, the threat of US tariffs is a big worry for companies, especially in Canada. As you just saw in that chart, the country is one of the top US
trading partners and exports and imports, adding up to nearly a trillion dollars a year. It is arguably the number one trading partnership in the
world.
Our own Paula Newton spoke to an auto parts maker in Ontario when you look at the effects of trade barriers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA NEWTON, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST AND CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It is on this factory floor in Canada that Donald Trump's demands for a fair
trade are being tested.
NEWTON (on camera): What are these over here?
ROB WILDEBOER, EXECUTIVE CHAIRMAN, MARTINREA INTERNATIONAL: For the Silverado.
NEWTON (voice over): These are parts for the Silverado, a GM truck made in Canada, the US, and Mexico and they are made by Martinrea.
WILDEBOER: These are a thousand times stamping presses.
NEWTON (voice over): Global auto parts supplier with thousands of workers in all three countries. Trump tariffs would strike at the very heart of
this business and its workers in North America, says executive Chairman Rob Wildeboer.
NEWTON: President Trump would say, why Mexico? Why Canada? Why can't you just make it all in the US?
WILDEBOER: I don't know anyone in our company that wants tariffs between Canada, the US and Mexico because we work very well as a unit. We take care
of our people everywhere. We make great parts in every jurisdiction and quite frankly, we benefit from that.
We've got some great plants in Mexico, in the United States and in Canada.
NEWTON: Do you believe a US made car then would be more expensive?
WILDEBOER: Yes. For sure. For sure.
NEWTON (voice over): That's the math, he says, a calculation made every day here as the threat of tariffs hang over one of the most prized
manufacturing industries on the continent.
Canada's auto industry directly employs at least 130,000 people in dozens of towns and cities, including Martinrea's facility in Vaughan, Ontario,
just outside of Toronto. They depend on these stable jobs, as do workers at this Martinrea facility in the US state of Kentucky.
WILDEBOER: I'll put my US hat on, right, because we are an American supplier. We are a Canadian supplier, we are a Mexican supplier, but we
have twice as many people in the United States as we do in Canada and in a number of communities, we are the largest employer, so Hopkinsville,
Kentucky; Jonesville, Michigan and others, we are a big deal. We are a big deal locally, we take care of a lot of people.
And I would say, a lot of those people probably voted for President Trump. They liked his message of lower inflation, more jobs, stronger economy, but
with the tariffs and so forth, they are getting higher inflation, less jobs, weaker economy.
[16:30:42]
NEWTON (voice-over): Despite that pitch, even employees here know what they're up against in the Oval Office. Some told us they approve of Canada
standing up to the threat.
NAITIK JARIWALA, MARTINREA EMPLOYEE: It's going to hurt anyhow. It's like either you deal it right now or in future.
NEWTON (voice-over): And it's not just Canada. Trump is challenging the very template of free trade right around the world. The European Union can
see what's coming their way. It has one of the largest trade deficits with the U.S. It, too says it will respond firmly to any tariffs, but it is
Trump's tough talk about an economic takeover of Canada. It cannot be reconciled.
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What I'd like to see Canada become our 51st state.
NEWTON (voice-over): It's triggered an uncommon anti-American backlash in Canada that may have legs, doing the U.S. anthem, boycotting American
products. All of it so far seems to have staying power.
DON PEPPER, BURLINGTON, ONTARIO RESIDENT: Well, I think it's ridiculous. We've been friends for years, traded for years and then all of a sudden,
this happens.
NEWTON (voice-over): For Martin Reyes executives and its North American workers, tariffs could still be a reality within weeks putting at risk a
profitable business and good paying jobs in the U.S. and beyond. They are asking President Trump, why mess with that?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: Paula reporting from Canada. We've been talking so much about A.I. Mistral. A.I. is one of the hottest startups in Europe. You heard President
Macron talk about it. Melissa Bell has been teaching to the chief executive for the impact.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:35:28]
QUEST: Hello. I'm Richard Quest in Dubai, and a lot more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS from the UAE tonight. We'll hear from the chief executive of
Mistral A.I. the company dubbed as Europe's answer to U.S. tech firms. Elon Musk's DOGE is shutting down a federal regulator. It was set up after the
2008 financial crisis, and the critics say it could sow the seeds for another one.
We'll get to it only after the news headlines because this is CNN and, on this network, the news always comes first.
Critics of the Israel government are protesting in Tel Aviv after Hamas said it would delay the next hostage release schedules to take place on
Saturday. Hamas and Israel are accusing each other of violating their cease fire. Israel's defense minister says he's ordered troops to prepare for any
possible scenario in Gaza.
A federal judge has extended a pause on the deadline for federal workers to accept the White House offer of resignation. The judge also temporarily
prohibited the government from soliciting more so-called buyouts. The pause on the deadline will remain in place as further court proceedings play out.
Romania's outgoing president has resigned rather than face impeachment. President Klaus Iohannis is a centrist who has been facing hard-right
opposition. His term expired in December, but elections have been rescheduled for May. Senate speaker, who heads the Liberal Party, will now
serve as an interim president.
Now we began the hour with President Macron comments about A.I. and the French president says Europe's not yet in the same league as the U.S. and
China, the A.I. superpowers. After all, the U.S. has OpenAI and China has DeepSeek. The French startup Mistral A.I. hopes to compete with the very
best. It was started by former engineers at meta and Google's DeepMind. CNN's Melissa Bell spoke to the chief executive, Arthur mensch about
Mistral's rise.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ARTHUR MENSCH, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, MISTRAL A.I.: We've been told it couldn't be done. That was two years ago. Actually, we've been told that it
was too costly. We've been told that it was a bad idea to make it in Europe. I think we showed that by gathering a very strong team, we could
achieve and make models that were useful to a lot of people. We could change the course of history by promoting Open Source and making sure that
many companies started to do the same thing as what we did. And so, yes, I think we proved them wrong so far.
BELL: And Open Source is the key, according to you, to allowing Europe to compete between the United States and China, where the advance is so great.
MENSCH: But say Open Source is the key for enterprise to benefit from the value of A.I. and for the value to be shared evenly across countries and
across industries. And so, we've been promoting that. What Open Source means is that as an enterprise, you can take the technology, you can deploy
it wherever you want, you can customize it, and we can help them do that. And so, we've done that. We've released models. We've seen other companies
do the same.
We've seen Chinese companies do the same, build on top of what we produced. They contribute back. And if you look at the history of AI. This is really
how things have been done.
BELL: And you mentioned --, you mentioned Chinese innovation applied to us but DeepSeek and the effect that it has perhaps on you and on your hopes,
is it good not just in opposing the American dominance in this but also in showing that these kinds of models can succeed?
MENSCH: Well, I think what it shows is that Open Source is going to succeed. DeepSeek built its technology on top of a technology that we
released a year ago called (INAUDIBLE) Mixture-of-Experts and we released an Open Source model to show how it could be done. And then DeepSeek did
amazing work on scaling that up and on bringing mathematic and coding capacity to it and contributing it back to the community.
So, what that means is that today, the community as a whole, so the entire world community is benefiting from what they've been doing as they've been
benefiting from what we have been doing. And so, we are going to build on top of each other, and we're going to make something that is better, that
is going to outperform everything that is closed off.
BELL: I'd like to ask you about Europe's place in this of course. There is the dominance of the United States, the growing competition from China.
Does Europe have the capacity both in terms of infrastructure investment that the United States has no but can it catch up and still make its place?
MENSCH: Well, I think first of all, Europe has a huge opportunity in terms of talents.
[16:40:01]
It has a huge opportunity in terms of having the best industries, having the best industries in each (INAUDIBLE) now on the infrastructure part, I
think Europe has a big opportunity in that -- it's grid. Its energy grid is well -- very well connected, and it's not very carbon intensive, in
particular in France. And so, the announcement that the French president did last yesterday shows that France is a hugely competitive place to
invest in infrastructure. It's also the reason why we decided to set up our own clusters for training in France.
BELL: You have an op ed out in the French press over the weekend explaining that it was time for people to understand A.I., to create a sort of
people's A.I. How can that be done? And how can we get over the fact that most people are pretty nervous about this technology that we're told is
going to take over and it's being built by tech companies that have a great deal of power already?
MENSCH: So how do you do that? Well, you move the conversation from a scientific and technical one to a conversation that is happening on the day
to day. That's the reason why we're bringing Le Chat, which is our assistant for whatever you're doing at home and at work, and I think that's
the way you accustom people to -- how to use the technology. People are afraid of having A.I. replace their job.
But what's going to happen is that if they use A.I. to plan ahead, to have aspiring partner when it comes to thinking about strategy, to create
documents for their work, they will actually be able to produce things faster and they will be augmented individuals. And in order for it to
happen, you need to make sure that every day they Le Chat, they use the technology and that's exactly the same thing that happened with internet
for instance. You need to understand how to use the internet to make a good use of it.
BELL: I'd like to ask you also about regulation. Europe is leading the way in terms of regulatory decisions opposed in other parts of the world. How
do you feel about them? And how do you balance this in this competitive world, the need for some regulation, but also allowing each country to
continue to innovation?
MENSCH: Well, our position has been to say that if you have innovative companies within your territory, you're shaping the technology, which means
that you don't need to reshape it for regulation. So, the best way to shape a technology is through innovation, is through inventing it. Because if
you're -- if you're on a non-territory, if you're inventing a new way to talk to a model, for instance, well, you can shape it, and you can shape it
according to your values, to your democratic values, in Europe in particular.
So, for us, it's a much more efficient way of -- than doing a heavy regulation on top of it. What we think is that today, Europe is taking --
is realizing that it needs to be perhaps more balanced in how it regulates and how it allows innovation. And we're very happy to see that. For us,
this is not the biggest problem honestly. The biggest challenge of Europe is to accelerate its adoption of A.I. is enterprises needs to accelerate
that. They need to match their U.S. counterpart in terms of (INAUDIBLE) spend, in terms of partnering with the A.I. ecosystem in Europe.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: Arthur Mensch of Mistral A.I. talking to Melissa. In a moment, Hamas says it's postponing the next hostage exchange until further notice. As a
result, protesters have gathered in Tel Aviv and accusing the Israeli government of sabotaging the ceasefire.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:46:15]
QUEST: Israel's defense ministers ordered troops to be on high alert after Hamas said it was postponing the next release of hostages which was set for
Saturday. Hamas is claiming Israel's violated the terms of the ceasefire. Israeli protesters in Tel Aviv tonight accused the government of sabotaging
the deal. The Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is now holding consultations with his security team.
Jeremy Diamond is in Tel Aviv. Exactly what is Israel supposed to have done that violates the ceasefire terms?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Hamas has accused Israel of a series of violations, some of which we can verify, some of
which we cannot as of yet. They include, for example, delaying the return of Palestinians to Northern Gaza, which we know did indeed occur. Israel
said it was because Hamas had not released a hostage when it was supposed to.
They also accused Israel of targeting people with shelling and gunfire, and we do know that a number of Palestinians have been killed in Gaza since the
ceasefire began by Israeli forces who say those Palestinians entered No Go Zones, for example. They also accuse Israel of blocking the entry of
shelter equipment, including pre-fabricated homes which Hamas says have yet to enter the Gaza Strip at all, as well as delaying the entry of medicines.
Those last two are in dispute to a certain extent, and the Israeli government hasn't directly responded to those allegations. What we do know,
though, is that this represents a pretty significant threat to this ceasefire agreement which is already very delicate, especially at a time
where we've seen the Israeli public really struck by the images of those three emaciated hostages who emerged on Saturday after 16 months of
captivity.
Hamas is making clear, though, that this is a threat, a serious threat at that, but a threat that could be averted if Israel implements the aspects
of the ceasefire that Hamas says it is not. They note in their statement, Hamas does that Israel has been given five full days' notice in order for
the mediators to pressure Israel, and they say that this "leaves the door open for the exchange to proceed as plans."
But in the meantime, the Israeli Defense Minister Israel Katz has ordered Israeli troops to their "highest alert level to prepare for any possible
scenario in Gaza." Richard?
QUEST: Thank you Jeremy Diamond in Tel Aviv. Grateful, sir. Elon Musk is pressing ahead with his efforts to shrink the U.S. government, and now he's
targeting the top consumer watchdog in the United States. We'll show you and tell you in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:51:25]
QUEST: U.S. Senator Elizabeth Warren and other Democrats are rallying outside the Consumer Financial Protection Board, the CFPB. The latest
agency to be put on the chopping block by the Trump administration. The Bureau's headquarters have been closed this week, and we've obtained an e-
mail from its chief operating officer telling work staff to work from home unless otherwise instructive, but at the same time that email basically
told to stop work on any work they were doing.
The Bureau was established after the 2008 financial crisis. It enforces laws regulating mortgages, credit cards and other types of lending. And
fields complaints about abusive bank practices.
Julie Margetta Morgan joins me now. Former official at the CFPB. So they've got rid of it, seemingly without a replacement. What is the risk here?
JULIE MARGETTA MORGAN, FORMER ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH, MONITORING AND REGULATIONS, CFPB: Well, there's incredible risk to consumers here. The
CFPB has returned $21 billion to consumers. Every day while I worked at the CFPB, we were on the front lines protecting consumers against, you know,
scammers who were trying to collect debt that they didn't owe, against inaccurate reports on their credit reports. And so, the risk to consumers
is that they're just left with kind of a green light for scammers and fraudsters to go after them.
QUEST: So, let me just put it straight to you that the administration would say it was a waste of money. It over regulated, over regulated and it
didn't need the money that it had anyway, which it hadn't spent.
MORGAN: I think the proof is in the pudding here. You know, again, we've returned $21 billion to consumers. Every day the CFPB was working hard on
behalf of the American people. In just the last week before Trump was inaugurated, the CFPB ordered Cash App to return $10 million to consumers
and it ordered Equifax to pay $15 million. You know, this wasn't an agency that was wasting money.
It was spending money on behalf of the American people. And I think, you know, we just need to be clear about what this really about. This is about
making Elon Musk richer. You know, Elon Musk --
(CROSSTALK)
QUEST: How? How? So this --
MORGAN: Go ahead.
QUEST: So -- yes, yes. I mean, how does it? What does Elon Musk stand to gain by getting rid of this bureau?
MORGAN: Elon Musk has stated from the get go that he wants to turn X into a massive financial institution, and the CFPB stands in his way. So, gutting
the agency and essentially shutting it down, you know, plays right into his hand. It's, you know, much easier for a bank like or a financial
institution like X to scam consumers, to rip people off and to just generally, not play by the same rules as other financial institutions.
So, I think, you know, we can -- the kind of DOGE tagline is that they're going after waste, fraud and abuse, but this is clearly a play that's right
-- plays right into his pocketbook.
QUEST: I'm grateful to you. Thank you very much, Julie. Appreciate your time joining us. We'll talk more in a moment. Let's continue that idea with
Elon Musk because in the last few moments the head of OpenAI has responded to a report that Musk wants to buy OpenAI. According to the Wall Street
Journal, Mr. Musk is leading a $97 billion bid for OpenAI.
[16:55:02]
The chief executive Sam Altman has written on X, no, thank you, but we will buy Twitter for $9.7 billion if you want. A reminder that Musk paid 44
billion for it. Now, Musk has helped found OpenAI become a rival. We've reached out for everybody's involved, and we're still waiting back to hear
more on comment. Need to show you the markets, because they have been all over the place. U.S. Stocks have bounced back as traders have looked past
Donald Trump's latest tariff threats. The Dow Jones picked up 167 points.
The S&P 500 has gained two-thirds of a percent itself. In fact, all the markets, the best gains are being seen at the NASDAQ, which is up nearly
one percent. NVIDIA helped pull the NASDAQ higher. We will take a profitable moment, in a moment after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Tonight's profitable moment, which, of course, must be about interview with President Macron. Enthusiastic, energetic, vibrant President
Macron exhibits all the best qualities in many ways when you do an interview, and certainly we got a lot of that from him tonight. But the
challenge is not to make good words and good sentences, or indeed, to have A.I. summits galore.
The challenge is that gap between policy and practice actually doing what needs to be done. Because everything that President Macron says is
absolutely true about Europe lagging behind. Europe needs to catch up. Europe's over regulated. Europe this, Europe that. But can they change and
do anything about it? The Draghi report. Cheers. The Draghi report is set out the road map.
The commission has set out its compass, complicated, difficult to understand, but it's there now the council needs to act. And in doing that,
they're going to have to rely on leadership, and that's exactly what President Macron is hoping for because until we get clarity in Europe and
Germany and other elsewhere, it's going to be leaders like President Macron that will have to lead the way, if, if, if Europe is to stand any chance.
And that QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for this Monday night. I'm Richard Quest in Dubai, here all week, World Government Summit tomorrow. Whatever you're up
to in the hours ahead, I hope it's profitable. Have a second.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Phil Mattingly in for Jake Tapper. This hour, dual winter storms is
about to slam much of the United States, with double digits of snow predicted in some places. And I see rain travel delays and power outages in
others. Our meteorologists are tracking the latest threats ahead.
Plus, say farewell to the penny. President Trump orders the Treasury to stop producing one cent coin, saying they cost more to make than they are
worth.
[17:00:05]
But could cutting those costs actually raise prices higher and at the store?
END
