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Quest Means Business

Vatican Sounds Bells and Lowers Flags For Pope Francis; Pope Remembered For Reforms, Some Of Which Faced Criticism; U.S. Markets Plunge As Trump Escalates Attacks On Federal Reserve Chair. Catholics Around The World Pay Tribute To Late Pope; Exploring The Legacy Of The First Jesuit Pope; Pete Hegseth Shared Military Plans In Second Signal Chat. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:10]

RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": Closing bell ringing on Wall Street. WE are showing you today, of course, even with the

events of the day because the markets are sharply lower as a result of comments made by Donald Trump.

The gavel you're going to see being hit any second now as things come to an end. Well, he seems to be getting a bit ahead of himself. One -- oh dear,

that was a bit of a -- two, oh, there we go. The markets are off the lows of the day. All three of the major indices are sharply lower. The markets

and what the reasons we are talking about in tonight's program.

The passing of Pope Francis, details about the pope's final wishes. A simple grave with a one word inscription "Franciscus." We are going to look

at Pope Francis' economic legacy. He reserved some of his sharpest criticism for what he called unbridled capitalism.

And, well, the U.S. President is aiming schoolyard insults at the chairman of the Fed, and not surprisingly, the markets are reacting accordingly.

Tonight, we are live in Dubai on Monday. It is April the 21st. I am Richard Quest and I mean in business.

Good evening. The world's Catholics are mourning the death of Pope Francis, which happened this morning -- on Monday morning, announced the news. There

is our now live pictures from St. Peter's Square, where the faithful have been gathering. They've also been getting to -- coming together in Paris,

Mexico and Buenos Aires in honor of the late pope.

The Vatican announced that Pope Francis died of a stroke and a heart failure only one day after Easter Sunday, where he made his final public

appearance and gave the Urbi et Orbi to the city and to the world, a blessing that only the Pope personally can give.

In the Pope's home country of Argentina, it has been declared seven days of mourning. In the United States, Donald Trump has ordered flags to be

lowered to half-mast, and he and other world leaders have been speaking about the Pope's legacy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: He was a good man, he worked hard. He loved the world and it is an honor to do that.

EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): During his whole pontificate, he was by the side of the most vulnerable, the most fragile.

With much humility and in this time of war and brutality, a very particular sense of the other and the most fragile.

SERGIO MATTARELLA, ITALIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Alongside the grief for the death of Pope Francis, I feel, as I said this morning, a

sense of emptiness, a sense of the deprivation of a point of reference to which I looked. He conquered the world from the very first moment already

with his choice of name.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: And we say, good evening to Isa Soares, who is now in Rome and Isa joins me.

The mood, of course, is obviously one of great sorrow and somber and now, a whole process goes into motion.

ISA SOARES, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Indeed it does. It is a very solemn evening, a solemn day, I should say, here in Rome and in Vatican, as

you mentioned there, Richard.

Flocks, many people from around the world, Catholics and non-Catholics and Christians alike, turning out to pay their respects to Pope Francis, a man

many say, who was a great leader, a great exemplar for many people's eyes, Richard, of the Christian faith, both in his simplicity and in his

humility.

We are starting to see, as people turn out today for rosary services. One got off last two hours or so in St. Peter's Square. In other places across

Rome, people are coming out for rosary services. And although many people knew he was frail, given he had been in hospital for some 40 days or so, it

still came as a shock to so many.

As you mentioned, only yesterday, he addressed his flock on Easter Sunday with a message very much like a message that we heard from him 13 years

ago, Richard, when, of course, he became Pope. A message of looking out for the other and then to war and thinking of compassion, which was so

important to him.

[16:05:04]

But like you quite rightly said, Richard, what's his death? What it has led to is a series of incredibly well orchestrated ritual services that we will

see, which is what we call the Sede Vacante, the vacancy that we will see, of course, in the coming days.

Today we are expected to see the Pope lying in rest and he is going to be lying in rest at the Chapel of Domus Sanctae Marthae. This is according to

the Vatican's Camerlengo, who will be presiding, Richard, over the certification of the Pope's death, and this is not for -- this is for close

family. This is for senior officials taking part in this rites.

So this is the lying in rest. We are expecting that from Wednesday onwards, his body would then be transferred and will be lying at St. Peter's

Basilica, and then people from all around the world will be able to come and pay their respects to the Pope. We are expecting this to be a simple

wooden casket, a man very much as you expect, everything in simplicity.

And then the funeral ritual between four and six days after his death, thinking today, obviously, is day one -- Richard.

QUEST: Isa, I believe we've got the pictures, which we are going to show while you and I are talking of the Pope's apartments in the place -- in the

castle where he lived. They were sealed a short while ago, but with a with tape, there we see the pictures of tape followed by a wax seal.

I mean, you know, many of us who have covered this have seen these sort of things, but of course, a lot more people will be familiar with this process

from the most recent film, "Conclave."

SOARES: Yes. Indeed.

QUEST: Which, I mean, you know, I don't want to draw sort of parallels in any shape or form, but the process that we are now going to see play out in

the Vatican Church is exactly the one that was played out in terms of the process of sealing and conclave and all of those things.

SOARES: Spot on. Exactly. Those of us who have seen "Conclave," the award- winning movie will know exactly the rituals that we see that sets in motion following a Pope's death and that is the sealing of the rooms, the papal

seal that is out of bounds and then begins, of course, the Conclave.

We are starting, that has happened in the last few moments. CNN has been able to confirm, that room becoming out of bounds to everyone. Incredible,

important stage.

In this ritual, like you said, Richard, that goes back in decades, but does set in motion the Sede Vacante where the Camerlengo will be overseeing

everything and will be responsible. But from now, very much an incredibly solemn day to focus on the Pope and what he has achieved and his legacy.

And then in about six days, the focus will turn, of course, Richard, the cardinals to focus who be next for the papacy.

QUEST: Grateful, Isa, I suggest what's next for you is getting yourself off for some sleep. It is 10:00 at night where you are.

SOARES: Spot on.

QUEST: And you will be up early tomorrow morning, live coverage of the events in Rome.

SOARES: Indeed. I will.

QUEST: And covering of the -- so get yourself off for a bit of shuteye. Starts at 8:00 Rome time, 7:00 in London.

Pope Francis was known as a reformer. He sometimes clashed with the Conservative Catholics. He broke tradition by washing the feet of only

women prisoners last year. He also authorized the blessings for same sex couples, and at times, there was fierce opposition to his decisions, others

complained that he didn't go far enough.

Father Edward Beck is a Roman Catholic priest and a religion and faith commentator. Father Beck is with me.

We will -- before we talk about, Father Beck, what might be next, it would be imprudent of us not to just spend a moment or two reflecting on the

enormous change, just firstly by a Jesuit, secondly, by somebody who astute pomp and circumstance as much as possible, and put the needs of the poor,

not just in words, but in deeds, first and foremost.

FATHER EDWARD BECK, ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIEST: Right. And of course, Richard, that is how he began his papacy. You'll remember he went to the island of

Lampedusa, which kind of was an entry point for many migrants, especially from Africa. And he went there to highlight the plight of migrants, as he

said, those who are oppressed, those who are forgotten by society. That was going to be his focus, that the church should go to the margins, and he

really lived his papacy that way, the way he began it, he kept consistent with that message.

[16:10:10]

QUEST: The way in which he fought the Curia, which put up a strong battle, not so much against his policies for the poor, but his wish to be more

liberal, and I guess the question is, how much of that is embedded now? How much of those changes, or is the Catholic Church at a fork in the road?

BECK: Well, he certainly kind of went against the bureaucracy, and he said that there was too much bureaucracy, so he tried to simplify it. And again,

he wanted priests and bishops to get out of their closed in doors and to be pastors. That was the primary concern.

Now, that legacy should be held on to, because, remember, he has appointed over 70 percent of the cardinals who will elect the next pontiff. And so

you would think that he did choose men that were kind of on the fringe, some of them, some of them most definitely in accord with his vision, most

of them in accord with his vision. So if those are the people to elect the new pontiff, you would expect that the tradition that Pope Francis began

will continue with whomever they elect.

QUEST: In my reading today, I was also reminded of those moments where he wasn't a pushover or a soft touch by any means, was he? In a sense, I'm

thinking of the bishops that he fired. He would allow you to say, I don't agree with you, but once the decision was made, if you then continued down

that road, he fired them.

BECK: That's right. I mean, in some ways, it followed in his own kind of imprint, because when he was a Jesuit provincial, the head of the Jesuit

community, he was known as pretty tough, as an administrator. He took no nonsense, and a lot of the Jesuits at that time didn't really like him,

because they thought he was too autocratic.

Now, when he became Pope, that kind of changed. He wanted what was called a synodal church, one that brought the Synod of various people that he would

consult together. However, if leadership of the church were not in accord with his vision, he had no hesitancy about saying, well, look, I mean, if

you're going to oppose it, fine, give me the reasons, but if you're going to undermine it and you're not going to follow it out, then you're gone.

And we know bishops and cardinals that he, in fact, did that too. So he was no pushover.

And people behind the scenes say if you work for him, you worked. He was certainly pastoral. He had a smile, he had kindness for people, but as you

said, he was tough as well.

QUEST: He didn't -- I was reading, he didn't really obey doctor's orders, did he? I mean, they said --

BECK: No.

QUEST: And barely, barely, was he back in the house where he was living in Santa Marta, barely was he back and he was having meetings, meetings that

weren't supposed to happen, and probably shouldn't have happened, but did anyway. Ten minutes here, 20 minutes there, whether it's the U.S. Vice

President, the King and Queen, King Charles and Queen Camilla, he just wouldn't stop.

BECK: You're right, Richard. And I really think he had a sense that his time was short. I think his illness really brought that home to him. And

once he was out of the hospital, which he wanted to do, he wanted to return home. I think he realized that he wanted to put his lasting imprint, and so

he wanted to be the worker bee that he had been previous to his hospitalization.

And so he did go against doctor's orders, you're right. He met with people that he shouldn't have. Just on Holy Thursday, you saw he went to a prison

where he could not wash the feet of the prisoners, as he had done in the past, but he greeted a great number of them in that room. You saw

yesterday, I mean, on Easter Sunday, he rode the Popemobile through St. Peter's Square, and he touched babies. He let people get close to him.

So, yes, he wasn't following doctor's orders, but I think he realized that time was short.

QUEST: Father Beck, I'm grateful, and forgive me. I should have passed on my condolences to you, of course, because obviously a great loss for

yourselves and other members of the ministry who too have lost your spiritual -- both spirit -- you've lost your -- Father, we are a business

program, you'll forgive me. You've lost the chairman, the CEO, all in one go, in a sense. So I send my thoughts and prayers to you, sir, tonight.

[16:15:12]

BECK: Thank you, Richard. I so appreciate your kindness.

QUEST: Now, we carry on. We turn President Trump, now the President has posted on social media just moments ago confirming that the President and

First Lady will attend the Pope's funeral. We will bring you more details on that when we've got it.

You'll recall -- well, maybe you won't recall but George Bush did attend the funeral of John Paul II all of those years ago, so there is strong

precedent for U.S. presidents going to the funerals of sitting popes, and now, it seems that President Trump and the First Lady Melania will visit.

But, we need to turn our attention to the other story because it would be foolish for us to not also bring to your attention that Donald Trump has

again -- forgive the term -- as move to spark the selloff on Wall Street. This time, it is the pressure that he has been putting on the Fed Chairman.

Donald Trump has called Jerome Powell a major loser. He wrote on Truth Social right after trading began and the Dow dropped nearly a thousand

points, the S&P, the NASDAQ -- they are off the lows of the day, but they are very sharply down.

The President accused Jerome Powell of acting too slowly. He demanded lower interest rates and deferred to the idea of firing Powell last week after

the Fed Chair warned about tariffs.

Allison Marrow is in New York.

Allison, what's the game here? He knows -- I mean, it is legally questionable whether he can fire Jerome Powell, and Jerome Powell has

already said, he is not going to be jawboned into lowering interest rates, so all he is doing, the President, is creating uncertainty and unease.

ALLISON MORROW, CNN BUSINESS SENIOR EDITOR: Yes, Richard, I think game is the perfect word for it because I will say, I don't have a clue what the

game is here. I don't know what President Trump thinks he is going to get out of strong arming the Fed because everything about American

exceptionalism and the strength of the U.S. dollar and the U.S. economy is built on U.S. Treasuries and U.S. reliability to pay its bills and if we

undermine that by strong arming the Fed, I just -- I don't know what we get out of it.

QUEST: And so, he wants lower interest rates and arguably, all things being equal, what he says is right, if you look at the way inflation has fallen

and is probably going -- except of that unfortunate little fact of tariffs. And until the Fed can be sure that there is not going to be pass through

into an upward spiral of inflation as a result of the tariffs, it's just one hit wonder, they are not going to cut rates again.

MORROW: Right, and the irony of all of this is that the reason the Fed has been hold, had been cautious is because of the uncertainty created around

tariffs which are Trump's economic catch all, and in further kind of illogic of this plan, when you raise concerns about inflation going up,

inflation tends to go up.

So when you undermine the Fed's ability to control prices, which is exactly what Trump is doing just with the rhetoric, you know, not even with the

formal process, it is just talking about it so far, but that already is undermining inflation expectations which has a self-fulfilling prophecy.

QUEST: So, take a punt at this one, do you think there comes a point where the markets discount and just don't take any notice of these threats and

bellicosity from the President?

MORROW: I think that's unlikely no matter what. At the end of the day, he is the President of the United States and the head of the world's biggest

economy and there is only, you know, I think markets for a long time have sort of taken that approach of taking Trump seriously, but not literally.

But this second term, they are finding out that he is serious and that the, you know "adults" in the room that protected markets and some of Trump's

more eccentric policy ideas in the first term are just not there anymore, and Scott Bessent can only do so much.

QUEST: Allison, I am grateful. You and I will talk many more times on this. Thank you for joining me tonight. Thank you.

Now, Pope Francis was a long-time advocate for economic justice. The late pontiff had a sharp criticism of inequality and what he called unchecked

capitalism. We will talk about that after the break.

QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:22:45]

QUEST: World leaders are remembering a Pope who was often unafraid to engage with them. Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said he is

mourning with the Catholic community and giving thanks for the Pope's prayers for peace in Ukraine.

The Russian President, Vladimir Putin has also paid tribute, saying he would cherish the Pope's memory.

Mahmoud Abbas, the President of the Palestinian Authority, has called the Pope a symbol of tolerance, love and fraternity.

Christiane Amanpour is with me.

Good evening, Christiane.

Having met the Pope and your recollections and moments, what do you make of the events?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, look, this pope, Pope Francis is one of the lonely moral voices out there beyond to his 1.3

billion Catholic faithful around the world as the world has become increasingly divided and ugly, and, you know, the idea of peace almost

doesn't exist anymore and everybody seems to be warring one way or another with each other.

He was really viewed as a moral voice, a lonely moral voice out there. And you just mentioned Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority. Well, the

Pope, we were told, and it has been reported about since his death, called the small Catholic community that remained in Gaza, every night, every

single night, including on the last weekend of his life, just to pray with them and tell them he was thinking about them.

Also, as you heard from President Zelenskyy, he always kept the Ukrainians and all of those who were being killed unjustly in wars in his prayers, and

he spoke about it a lot.

When I met him, it was in December 2014, and a group of world leaders, religious leaders had gathered at the Vatican to talk about the Pope's

mission, which was to try to combat modern slavery and it wasn't an interview. It was, you know, quite stage managed, as you can imagine. But I

was able to ask a question from the sort of the peanut gallery where we, the press were cordoned off in. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Holy Father, you played a key role in establishing the Global Freedom Network. You were the first person to call modern slavery and human

trafficking a crime against humanity.

[16:25:04]

As you appeal for this scourge to be eradicated once and for all, tell us what exactly motivated your passion about this particular scourge?

POPE FRANCIS (through translator): On behalf of all of us and our beliefs and persuasions, we declare that human slavery, in terms of prostitution,

organs exploitation, and also human trafficking is a crime against humanity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And that is exactly how he led his papacy. By you know, really trying to help the poorest of the poor, the most marginalized. When it came

to homosexuality, you remember he famously said, "Who am I to judge?" When it came to women, he did help them move slightly further up the hierarchy.

They are not priests in the Catholic Church, many women resent that, but nonetheless, he has elevated status for some of those positions.

When it came to refugees, his first refugees and migrants, his first trip as pope was to the island of Lampedusa, which is off Southern Italy, off

the Sicily area there and this is where all these boats would come, these wooden, rickety boats from North Africa and either people would make it to

Lampedusa or they would die in the middle of the Mediterranean.

If you remember, the Italian Prime Minister at the time called the Mediterranean a watery mass grave, and the Pope went there, said mass in an

altar that had been created out of these wooden boats. It is remarkable what he did.

QUEST: Christiane, I am grateful for you joining us tonight from France. Thank you. We will talk more in the days ahead. Thank you.

Now, the Pope was a vocal critic of the excesses of capitalism, and he often spoke out about economic injustice. In 2013, Pope Francis said,

"Today we also have to say thou shalt not to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills." Excuse me.

He also said the same year, "Unbridled capitalism has taught us the logic of profit at all costs of exploitation without regard to persons." And in

2014, the Pope tweeted, "Inequality is the root of social evil."

Lynn de Rothschild is the founder and CEO of the Council for Inclusive Capitalism, an organization that has very much the Pope -- what he set up

as its heart and indeed, you met the Pope and have met the Pope, the late Pope.

I wonder, he made many comments about the necessity of inclusive capitalism, the evil, particularly during, if you will, the financial

crises that we faced. But was anybody listening?

LYNN FORESTER DE ROTHSCHILD, FOUNDER AND CEO, COUNCIL FOR INCLUSIVE CAPITALISM: Well, I think a lot of people were listening, and I started

working on trying to reform the capitalist model so that it works for everyone shortly after the financial crisis, and I worked with dozens of

CEOs and investors who understood that what was best for their business was to take care of their workers, to take care of their communities.

And in about 2018, I wrote a letter to Pope Francis, and I said that I am working with dozens of CEOs who are trying to move away from the neoliberal

greed as good economy and toward an economy that works for all. But I said we are acting in prose, we have no poetry. And I said, Holy Father, you,

with your moral base in the teachings of Jesus, can actually give us the poetry.

And I asked if I could bring a small group of our chief executives to the Vatican to launch this council and it was an incredible meeting. I mean,

without naming names, I remember a CEO who was blessed by the Pope because he saw each one of us. He was incredibly generous, break down in tears

after just a communication, one-on-one with the Pope.

QUEST: But Lynn, what was the hallmark of that connection? Because at the same time, he recognized and he accepted the nature of capitalism as being,

in a sense, you know, the way of the West. It was the excesses of greed is good that he found offensive to the point.

[16:30:01]

DE ROTHSCHILD: That's true. That's exactly -- that is exactly right. And he was trying to rein in the greed and bring capitalism back to a concept of

the common good and indeed, when we see where we are today, with so much division and so much lack of trust in every institution, we have to agree

the Pope was right. Capitalism unbridled has let too many people down.

And if we fix capitalism, I think we would fix a lot. And the pope -- the pope brought a humility and a very high bar to us, means that he didn't

say, meet with me. He said, go out and take concrete actions in your business. And that's what we do at inclusive capitalism.

QUEST: And that's the difference between talking it and the simplicity of the way he lived it. You could never say to his face, this is hypocrisy.

You're -- because, you know, he was actually living that. And as a Jesuit priest had for his entire life, followed through with that.

DE ROTHSCHILD: Absolutely, absolutely. The purity of the man and the humanity was so moving. And when you contrast that to a crass, greedy

capitalism, you think we probably have done this wrong.

And Pope Francis was a fabulous inspiration for so many people to do the right things with their -- with their companies. We all can't live like

Pope Francis lived, but we all can do the right thing for our workers, for our communities, for our consumers and for our shareholders.

And if we did that, we would have better economies and we'd have better societies. That's the driving force behind what we did and what we do every

day. And there are hundreds of people on the website. We have 530 members representing 200 million workers worldwide, and people are trying to do the

right thing. And I think the best thing we can do for the Pope's legacy is to try to make the world a better place.

QUEST: You and I, Lynn, will talk more about this. It's a subject we need to talk more about. I'm grateful for you joining me tonight from London.

Now, the Pope was the first modern pontiff to be born outside of Europe. Will be in his native Argentina, and how they're in that country. They're

honoring his life, in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:35:53]

QUEST: Hello, I'm Richard Quest. There is more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS in a moment. We'll talk about Pope Francis, known as the pontiff of first, the

first Latin American Pope, we'll have a live report from his native Argentina.

And he was also the first Jesuit to be made Pope. I'll speak to the editor in chief of American media, a Jesuit publication. We'll get to that after

the news, because the news always comes first on CNN.

Mourners around the world are honoring the legacy -- life and legacy of Pope Francis, who died a day after Easter at the age of 88. The Vatican

says the Roman Catholic pontiff died of a stroke and a heart attack. It says he confirmed in his last testament that he wants to be buried in a

simple tomb in the Basilica in Rome.

The U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is attacking some of his former advisers in the media after the sources say he shared detailed military

plans in a second Signal chat. This one apparently took place on his personal phone and included his wife, brother and lawyer. Pete Hegseth was

already under scrutiny of using the app last month to discuss military strikes with cabinet officials.

And staying at the White House. The annual White House Easter Egg Roll was held on Monday. The president and first lady welcomed children to the South

Lawn. The event began in the 1870s and has long received private funding. This year, it also featured corporate branding.

1.5 billion Catholics around the world are mourning the death of the Pope at age 88. The German faithful gathered in cathedrals and paid their

respects. Whilst in the Congo, the faithful praised him for visiting their nation despite his ill health.

And in Mexico City, there were prayers the Basilica de Guadalupe, from Latin America to East Asia, people are reflecting on the Pope Francis and

his legacy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I thought he was a unique and extraordinary person. Also during COVID-19, as a priest, he got up every

day to pray for the world. He was simply a 10 and died at a marvelous and beautiful time worthy of him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Pope Francis has prayed for South Korea when the Sewol ferry tragedy happened, or whenever we are having

difficulties, I am sincerely grateful for that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think on Christians throughout the world, so many people look to the Pope as the leader of the Christian world. And I think

it will be a time of great sadness, but also a time when people will be praying and reflecting on what the Lord is calling His people to do next.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Now, the Pope's death will perhaps be felt most deeply in his native Argentina, where mourners in Buenos Aires gathered for mass after hearing

the news. Francis was born there to Italian parents, and it made him the first modern Pope to be born outside of Europe. He's also the first pope

from Latin America.

CNN's Cecilia Dominguez spoke to parishioners at the Cathedral in Buenos Aires, and Cecilia is with me now. Good evening.

CECILIA DOMINGUEZ, CNN REPORTER: Good evening, Richard. How are you? We are working at the Metropolitan Cathedral in Buenos Aires. We've been here for

hours. We -- the doors were opened at 7:30 in the morning, local time, and since then, we've seen so many people gathering here, mourners that wanted

to say goodbye to Pope Francis.

And as you can see, this is the entrance of the Metropolitan Cathedral in the city of Buenos Aires, where now mass is being held. This is the third

mass of the day. The first one was at 8:30 in the morning, local time, and it was presided over the archbishop, who is Jorge Garcia Cuerva, and this

is the third one, and there's one more mass coming in more than two hours.

[16:40:11]

As you can see, there are mourners, people -- not only neighbors and tourists, but also people from different parts of Argentina that wanted to

be here to pay tribute to Pope Francis, to bring pictures, to share memories.

Because as you -- as you know, Pope Francis, before becoming a pope, he was a priest. He served the poor in the city of Buenos Aires, and he used to

work in very poor neighborhoods in the city of Buenos Aires. That's why, as a priest, he shared so many conversations with many people that wanted to

come here to bring flowers, to light a candle, to, as I said, to bring pictures, and also to bring football batches, because Pope Francis used to

say in all the interviews that where he could mention he was a fan of football, of San Lorenzo, which was the team he supported.

San Lorenzo has published a statement, posted a statement in which they mentioned that Pope Francis was one of them as a supporter, and they really

appreciated him as a fan.

Of course, as I -- as I said, the doors of the Cathedral, the Metropolitan Cathedral, are going to be open, not only today, all day long, but in the

days that come.

QUEST: I'm grateful to you for joining us tonight from Buenos Aires, and we will talk more and hear from where you are. Thank you.

Now, the Pope represented many firsts, as we just heard from Cecilia. In a moment, the legacy from the first pope from Latin America, but also the

first Jesuit to lead the church. What was the implications of that? in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:45:16]

QUEST: Welcome back to our coverage of these, we continue to reflect on the life of Pope Francis, who was the first Jesuit to lead the Catholic Church.

Now Jesuits one of the church's largest male religious orders, more than 14,000 members. The group was founded in the 1500s and focuses on education

and outreach.

And the Pope, the late Pope carried on that mission as one of the most well-traveled. He made 47 international trips, visiting 68 countries.

Father Sam Sawyer is a Jesuit president and the editor in chief of American Media Jesuit Publication. Father Sam is with me now.

First of all, let me offer my condolences, of course, on your great loss.

FATHER SAM SAWYER, S.J., PRESIDENT AND THE EDITOR IN CHIEF, AMERICAN MEDIA: Thank you very much.

QUEST: The loss of Pope Francis, but you know, Father Sam, we keep talking about -- and I remember so from the moment the Pope was announced and was

chosen, that he was the first Jesuit priest, and then usually in the next sentence, people talk about the poor and poverty and work with the needy.

I guess one needs to understand that connection between the Jesuits and that work that as seen through the -- through the Holy eye of the -- of the

Holy Father.

SAWYER: Sure. Well, I should also say that I don't think anyone was more surprised to have a Jesuit elected Pope than the Jesuits ourselves. We

think of ourselves as at the service of the Pope. We vow to be available, to be sent wherever the Pope needs us, but we certainly don't think of

ourselves as potentially, you know, supplying a pope to the church.

But I think it's that spirit of being sent to wherever the need is greatest, which is how the Jesuits originally, you know, said, Ignatius

said his first companions in the 16th century, how they originally put themselves at the disposal of the Pope, was to be sent to wherever the need

was greatest, and to any part of the world where they were needed.

And I think it's that sense of mission, of outreach, being able to go to the very edges and margins. That's one of the things we saw in Pope

Francis.

QUEST: it was this constant reflection on the poor, the needy, those, as you say, in your -- those most in need that, you know, I guess what I'm

trying to understand it because -- and I know that you have what the Jesuits have, a fourth mission, which is to obey the Pope, which is

different from other priests, in a sense.

But any man of the cloth will say, we're all about helping those in need. We're all about, you know, the disadvantage. What makes the Jesuits

different and special in that sense?

SAWYER: So, I think part of that is the -- we're built for and formed for a kind of mobility and adaptability. So, you know other religious orders,

certainly the Franciscans, and you know, Pope Francis took the name Francis to honor the commitment Francis of Assisi had to simplicity and to the poor

and to really living as someone who was poor himself, poor and simple.

But the Jesuits are particularly devoted to being mobile and adaptable, and that allows us to reach people in situations of need and in new situations,

situations where the church isn't used to how to -- how to figure things out, or how to do things.

So, one example we see is the work and Pope Francis is concerned for refugees and migrants. That's a newer situation, but one the Jesuits have

always felt very called to be involved in.

QUEST: Do you think the conservative church, the traditional church, rolled their eyes when a Jesuit was a -- was made upon different thought, oh,

Lord, here we go?

SAWYER: Well, people have all kinds of opinions about the Jesuits and usually as many opinions as there are people.

So, I think there was a certain amount of, you know, folks who felt like, oh, the Jesuits are going to do something, you know, unpredicted or

unpredictable. And Francis lived up to that part as well.

But I think more -- you know, for as many people as might have occasionally rolled their eyes at Francis, I think he really connected with folks in the

pews. I think he connected with Catholics worldwide, who really saw his simplicity, his outreach and his pastoral care, and really felt like he was

almost, you know, a parish priest for the world in some ways.

QUEST: Father Sam, I'm so glad you joined us tonight to put all this into perspective. Thank you so much, sir.

And again, our thoughts with you and your order this evening. Thank you, sir.

[16:50:06]

SAWYER: Thank you very much.

QUEST: Now, we have a busy day, and there's many events taking place that I do need to bring to your attention. Besides, obviously, what's been taking

place in Rome, the U.S. Defense Secretary, there's more pressure for sending military plans in a group chat on Signal. Pete Hegseth blaming the

media and former employees this time for the scaffold.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: The White House is standing by the Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth after reports that he shared military plans in a second Signal group chat.

Three people familiar with the chat say it was on Hegseth's personal phone, and the chat included his wife, brother and lawyer.

Last time Hegseth shared plans about strikes on the Houthis in Yemen. Even so, this time, the White House says the president absolutely has confidence

in his defense secretary. Some of his close advisers are sounding the alarm.

Natasha Bertrand is with me, absolute chaos, I believe, is one of the phrases that's been used by a former press secretary, but the reality is --

the reality is that, you know, Pete Hegseth, once again, blames the messenger, not the message. It's all our fault. It's all your fault. And

we're the ones who are making a mountain out of a Melville, and nothing's been done that's been nothing wrong. How long can this go on?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look, Richard. And the important point also here is that he is not denying the substance

of the reporting, which is that he did have this second Signal group chat with some of his closest advisers, and that included his wife, his brother

and his personal lawyer. That has not been up for debate in the statements that he and his spokespeople have made today.

But the question of course, is, how much longer is the White House going to stand by him? And for now, Trump says publicly, at least that he is, that

he believes Hegseth is doing a great job, particularly when it comes to the military operation against the Houthis in Yemen. He is also echoing

Hegseth's talking point that this is all an orchestration by disgruntled former employees.

But it's worth noting here, and something that they are also not mentioning, of course, is that these former employees, these people that

Hegseth fired last week, two of them, at least, were very, very close to Secretary Hegseth. They were brought on board by him and the former top

Pentagon spokesman who wrote publicly last night that the Pentagon is in total chaos. Of course, he was also brought on by Secretary Hegseth and was

there at the Pentagon until just last week.

[16:55:05]

So, these are not career officials or administration holdovers making these accusations. They're Hegseth's people.

QUEST: But isn't the reality that, yes, he's -- the president will only ditch him when other Republicans in the Senate and in the Congress go

against him, and it becomes clear that he's losing support on Capitol Hill, and that's not going to happen, as long as the president continues to

support him, it's almost as it's a circular argument here.

BERTRAND: I think that's exactly right. And we also saw during his confirmation process, there were some senators that were wavering a bit,

and Republican senators that were wavering a bit and whether they wanted to support him, including John Thune, including Joni Ernst, and they were

threatened by the White House and by Republicans and by proponents of Hegseth with primary challenges and with other potential consequences if

they did not go along with this.

It seems as though the White House is still in that mindset. They do not want at this point another confirmation hearing. They put a lot of

political capital, of course, into getting Hegseth confirmed.

So, for now, unless Hegseth continues to dominate the news cycles with other instances of him being or mishandling information, and of course, if

there is a result from this inspector general probe that is currently being conducted against him that is not favorable to him, or that proves that he

was engaged in some other kind of nefarious activity, then that could be enough for the White House to finally say enough is enough here.

QUEST: Natasha, I'm grateful you joined us tonight. Thank you.

And we will take a profitable moment after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Tonight's profitable moment, when the Pope spoke out against capitalism, he did so with great force. It wasn't that he was against the

market economy, per se, but the -- against the greed is good, the excesses of capitalism, the offensiveness that can happen when the pursuit of profit

becomes all important to the exclusion of everything else.

And the pope constantly reminded us that there were other aspects that, yes, profits had to be made, but those who had been left behind had to be

remembered as well.

It's easy to say whether or not anybody ever heard that message, but the mere fact, somebody of his stature, somebody of that importance, somebody

so significant was constantly reminding us that money is not just the root of everything, that in itself was important.

[17:00:15]

And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for tonight. I'm Richard Quest in Dubai. Good night.

END