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Quest Means Business

Fortnum & Mason Warns Trade Barriers Will Hit Tea Prices; OpenAI Announces ChatGPT Atlas Web Browser; Tesla Shares Slide After Hours as Net Income Misses. Trump Meets with NATO Chief Mark Rutte; Trump Could Be Seeking $230 Million From His Own Justice Department; Trade Expert: Blanket Tariffs are Making U.S. Less Safe. Aired 4:00-5p ET

Aired October 22, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:13]

RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": They are learning about business. That's the Wisconsin School of Business at the

University of Wisconsin-Madison. They are ringing the closing bell today, a down day. We've had some good gains over the last few days and weeks, so

perhaps we shouldn't be too upset that we have a bit of profit taking.

Oh no, no, no, no. You're not going to break the gavel with that sort of thing. Strong gavel, but nothing to write home about. As you can see, red

on the market. But those are the markets. And these are the main stories of the day: President Trump is meeting the NATO Chief, Mark Rutte, at the same

time, his Treasury Secretary says substantial new sanctions on Russia are coming. What does substantial mean?

It is the battle for the future of the internet. OpenAI is challenging Google on its own terms with its new web browser.

And U.S. tariffs are spoiling the tea party. London's Fortnum & Mason's Department Store, a cup of tea with the chief exec and Vicky, too, I hope,

coming our way on QUEST MEANS BUSINESS because we are live tonight in London, Wednesday, October 22nd. I am Richard Quest and I mean business.

Good evening.

We have a busy hour to bring you. For instance, any moment now, NATO's Secretary General, Mark Rutte will meet President Trump at The White House,

as the hopes for imminent peace deal for the war in Ukraine seem to be receding fast. Certainly, a meeting is unlikely any time soon.

And the Secretary General will -- as he arrives, we are also getting news that the Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessent, says the U.S. will announce new

Russian sanctions either today or tomorrow morning. Now, that's taken everybody by surprise.

I am sure Kevin Liptak who I know is at The White House is well across it. Or were you -- were you surprised this came out of the blue?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, it is something of a surprise, just given that President Trump has sort of put off this decision

on new sanctions on Russia for what seems like months now, and so when we were talking to Bessent in the driveway, it was sort of an odd moment

because he had done his little gaggle. He had answered questions about a bunch of different topics, and then he seemed to remember, as he was

walking away, that he wanted to tell us that the U.S. Would announce this, "substantial pickup" in new sanctions on Russia. And he said it would be

either by the close of the markets today, which we just saw, or early tomorrow morning.

Now, what exactly these will look like? We don't know. Are they some sort of secondary sanctions on purchasers of Russian oil? We've seen the

President already apply that on India. There is a lot of question about what is left to sanction inside of Russia, but obviously these have been

drawn up for quite some time because the President has sort of been openly weighing in public whether to do this or not.

And so I think the decision to bring this to bear, as this summit with Putin seems to be falling apart, is certainly all very connected as the

President tries to put pressure on Russia to sort of change its terms in order to how to bring the war to an end.

QUEST: Stay with me. Don't go anywhere because we are going to talk about the visit, which comes after The White House said on Tuesday there are no

plans for this meeting between Presidents Trump and Putin, and Friday's meeting with Ukrainian counterpart, Volodymyr Zelenskyy turned acrimonious.

The NATO chief said on Capitol Hill, Mr. Trump's leadership remains crucial.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL: I have total confidence in President Trump, and he is the only one who can get this done. He is the leader of

the most powerful nation on earth. You're all citizens of the most powerful nation on earth, the most powerful economy, the most powerful military. And

you have a President with a lot of experience because of his first term in office, and who has a clear vision on bringing this war to a durable and

lasting end.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Nic Robertson is with me. He is good, isn't he? Mark Rutte? He knows how to lay it on with a thick trowel.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: And that's what works, because, look, go back to the beginning of last week, President Trump was

talking about tomahawk cruise missiles for Ukraine, midway through the week, he pivoted, had a phone conversation with President Putin, was all

about drawing a line and forcing Ukraine to give up territory, another reverse of an earlier position. And yet now, we are learning from "The Wall

Street Journal" that he is going to authorize European allies to provide Ukraine with longer range missiles to reach deeper into Ukraine.

And I am going to posit with you in a second, you're going to ask me the question. I am going to posit with you an idea of why -- what might have

contributed today to President Trump's turnabout.

QUEST: Well, you can posit as much as you like, because while you're positing, put into that posit this question, which I just asked Kevin

Liptak, which is, this sanctions is further evidence that he is pissed off with Putin.

[16:05:10]

ROBERTSON: And is aligning with the European Union, which is announced as expected, its leaders meet tomorrow in Brussels, a 19th round of sanctions,

which will include what President Trump had demanded a few weeks ago of the Europeans to cut your energy supplies from Russia. The E.U. plan is to cut

LNG supplies from Russia by the 1st of January, two steps to 2027 now.

Let me posit that idea.

QUEST: Go on.

ROBERTSON: What happened today in Ukraine that will have affected the psyche of the President and if not the U.S. President, then his wife,

Melania. It was the fact that a children's kindergarten was struck by a Russian missile in Kharkiv today. Now, the 48 children were carried out by

firefighters and rescue workers. One person was killed, several others injured.

But if that did not highlight what is at President Trump's heart, often in these matters, it is lives, and in particular the lives of children.

QUEST: Okay, back to you, Kevin on The White House Lawn, assuming it hasn't been dug up or built over. You just heard this idea -- this idea of the

attack, the positing of Nic Robertson, I mean, there is a shift. There is a noticeable shift in Trump's attitude in the last 24 to 36 hours. Do you buy

this?

LIPTAK: No. And the reason I say that is because this has got to be the 30th shift in his approach to Putin since he came back into office and in

fact, just within the last 72 hours, we've seen two shifts in his approach to Putin because it was only last Thursday that he was getting ready to

pack his bags, to go to Budapest after a phone call with the Russian President, in which he did not seem to voice any change in stance on how he

viewed the war coming to an end.

Now, these sanctions going into place, that is certainly a big deal. There is some suggestion that the President is lifting some restrictions on

certain long range missiles, that Ukraine would be able to fire into Russia. That, too, would also be a big deal. But that's not all to say that

the next time that the President gets on the phone with Putin, or the next time he sees him face-to-face that it won't just all swing back in the

other direction. It is a pattern we've seen too many times to sort of believe that this is the final say in all of it.

ROBERTSON: Kevin absolutely has his finger accurately better than any of us on the pulse of The White House. But I would have suggested that this

wasn't something that happened in the last 36 hours, but in the last handful of hours, it was only at lunchtime today when he was standing on

the tarmac in Norway with, the Prime Minister of Norway, you know, Store, that Zelenskyy announced that that the kindergarten had been hit.

I think what has -- as Kevin absolutely says, what we are witnessing is flip-flops by the U.S. President and who knows what will happen after he

speaks to President Putin again. But we've seen this time and time again, he speaks to Putin, the Europeans organize. We had already seen them pre-

organizing, Zelenskyy to the E.U. Leaders' Summit, Zelenskyy to London Friday for a meeting of the Ukraine contact and support group.

The Europeans were already organizing themselves in readiness for Trump leaning back towards Putin again. This time, he has now apparently stepped

forward. Economic sanctions, U.S. and European coming in parallel. The Europeans doing what he wanted on energy. Yes, it will all change again.

But right now, the meter has swung in Ukraine's favor, it would appear at this minute.

QUEST: Kevin, I won't give you the last word on that. I will ask from where you are. Can you hear the bulldozers tearing down the East Wing? We are

fascinated by this.

LIPTAK: Yes. You can hear the kind of rhythmic pounding of drill on concrete. It has been going all day today, and every so often you can hear

kind of the sound of a wall crashing down onto the ground, the pile of debris where the East Wing used to sit.

And actually, today is the first day -- you know, we are on the North Lawn of The White House. It is the first day that you can kind of see just

behind the north portico, the arm of the track excavator tearing down the building.

It is remarkable. It has drawn all kinds of consternation. You know, I was talking to a preservation official who is calling on The White House to

just stop this whole thing, go back through the approval processes, which they haven't done quite yet.

There is no indication that he is planning to do that, in fact, we've just heard today that this ballroom is going to be bigger than they even

previewed back over the summer. So this is heading on full steam ahead. And I think, you know, if people had concerns about the East Wing, I think the

time to have raised them was when The White House put out renderings of this ballroom showing that there was no East Wing left. I am not sure it

was the moment to do it when the excavators started tearing into the facade, but nonetheless, here we are.

[16:10:10]

It is caused, I think, a lot of outrage. You know, this is a historic building, clearly, and people want to see it preserved.

QUEST: Kevin, I am always so grateful for you on the North Lawn. I am always grateful for you, Nic Robertson sitting next to me. Thank you very

much, gentlemen, one and all.

A top U.S. Senate Republican is warning of terrible optics as President Trump considers seeking hundreds of millions of dollars from his own

Department of Justice.

Thom Tillis told CNN that while Mr. Trump is in a difficult position, demanding that money during a government shutdown is bad timing at best. We

asked Mr. Trump about this report, saying he has already -- even before he became President for the second time, he had filed the complaint with this

Justice Department seeking $230 million as compensation for the indictments and past investigations, and the President didn't exactly deny it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: Because "The New York Times" is reporting that your legal team is seeking $230 million from your

own Justice Department now in response to the investigations into you.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It could be.

COLLINS: Is that something you want your legal team to do?

TRUMP: I don't know what the numbers are. I don't even talk to them about it. All I know is that they would owe me a lot of money, but I am not

looking for money. I'd give it to charity or something. I would give it to charity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Now, the President has shrugged off so many rule of law, justice norms. On his first day in office, he issued pardons and commutations to

all of the January 6th Capitol rioters. Last week, he commuted the sentence of the former Republican Congressman George Santos, bearing in mind Santos

had only served around 85 to 86 days of a seven-year sentence.

He has also urged the DOJ to investigate political enemies, fired prosecutors, replaced them with his own lawyers and/or friends and allies.

On top of all of that, he has given his personal attorneys high ranking roles and now seeking money from the DOJ.

The honorable Shira Scheindlin is a retired U.S. District judge.

Judge, we wanted to talk tonight. I mean, there is always this sense of outrage with these sort of things and, eventually outrage becomes the norm

and it gets watered down. But, you know, I trained as a lawyer and the jurisprudential concepts that are just being demolished, like the

commutation of an entire sentence for no valid reason or seeking money when you are the judge and jury. What do you make of it?

SHIRA A. SCHEINDLIN, FORMER FEDERAL JUDGE: It is called flood the zone. He does so many things that you just can't react to all of them. You get so

used to his behavior. So you just gave a list one by one and we need to talk about every one of them.

So where to begin? First of all, he has been defying judges. His prosecutors are not giving answers to questions or they are working around

and doing what they want to do despite that. He is also, as you pointed out, firing prosecutors. There is no independence of the Department of

Justice anymore. It is not separate from The White House. He tells them who to prosecute. He tells them who not to prosecute.

As you know, he is already prosecuting three of his enemies -- James Comey, Letitia James, Bolton and he is going after more to come. He is going after

Senator Adam Schiff. He is going after Chris Wray, former FBI director. So there is a whole list of people who are his enemies and there is more to

say --

QUEST: Right, well --

SCHEINDLIN: Go ahead.

QUEST: Judge, what does it offend for you? When, for example, he commutes a sentence that is barely 80 days into seven years? What does it offend

judicially and jurisprudentially?

SCHEINDLIN: It is very offensive because the pardon power was supposed to be for people who might have actual innocence, either wrongfully convicted,

or maybe the law has changed and they wouldn't be convicted today. But he is not doing that. He is doing it politically.

He has pardoned six convicted Republican House members who were serving prison terms for bribery, for extortion, for securities fraud. All pardoned

because they are Republicans and he said so. He has pardoned one Democratic former Governor, Rod Blagojevich, but that governor became a supporter of

Trump, so he rewards his enemies.

And what he said about Santos, he said he had the courage to support me, to stand up and speak in my favor. So he is using these things. He is defying

the rule of law. Instead, it is the rule of one man and that is not supposed to be our democratic system. It is not the rule of men, it is the

rule of law, and that's why I am giving you these examples.

QUEST: But if this is the case, I mean, it really comes down to, yes, you can, but it doesn't mean you should, I suppose, and the rule of law, is it

stretched, bent, pretzeled or are we seeing it being broken to the point where it will be very difficult to put back together again?

SCHEINDLIN: Very difficult. This man has no guardrails. He does exactly what he wants and damn the consequences. He really doesn't care what the

law says. He does what he wants.

He is attacking judges all the time. He talks about corrupt Biden judges who have nothing to do that shows that they are the least bit corrupt. He

says they should be impeached. So there are so many things he is doing that are attacks on the rule of law, and I have given you so many of them, but

there are more. He fires career prosecutors who won't bring the cases that he wants brought, and he also fires prosecutors who won't dismiss cases

that he thinks should be dismissed, as in the case of Mayor Eric Adams.

So threatening judges, attacking judges, defying judges -- it is all of a piece.

QUEST: Is it -- isn't this an example, though, of any system of justice is only -- the integrity is only as good as the people who administer it, and

in the case of checks and balances, which the U.S. trumpets so much, if those who aren't the checks aren't doing their job, then this is

inevitable.

SCHEINDLIN: That's exactly right. There are no checks by Congress. There are no checks within the Executive Branch and we have lost separation of

powers. We are supposed to have three co-equal branches of government -- Legislative, Judicial, Executive -- but we don't. We have one overpowered

Executive who has taken over the other two branches. And if they don't stand up, then we are lost. Our democracy is lost, and the rule of law is

lost. So you're absolutely right, our institutions are only as strong as the people who hold office.

QUEST: Judge, I am very grateful for you joining us. Thank you. I mean, we should talk on happier subjects in the future, but I am grateful for your

time tonight. Thank you, Judge.

SCHEINDLIN: Thank you.

QUEST: The market reaction as Donald Trump dashed investors' hopes for breakthrough on a trade with China. That is in a moment. We will show you

the numbers.

QUEST: Now, Wall Street closed lower. Investors are weighing the chances of a U.S.-China trade deal. The averages, they all slid after Reuters said

that the U.S. was looking at new export controls on software. The NASDAQ bore the brunt as you can see. There have been good gains recently, so

let's put it in perspective.

President Trump could be looking for leverage ahead of the next planned meeting with Xi, he said on Tuesday that a deal is possible if the two

leaders manage to get together this month at APEC in South Korea.

[16:20:22]

TRUMP: So now we are going to have a fair deal, and I think we are going to have a very successful meeting. Certainly, there are a lot of people that

are waiting for it and maybe it won't happen. Maybe it won't happen. Things can happen where, for instance maybe somebody will say, I don't want to

meet. It is too nasty, but it is really not nasty. It is just business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Donald Trump argues that the tariffs have made the United States safer. National Security has been the core of the argument. Posting that he

spoke to the heads of GM and Ford and told them auto tariffs are a matter of National Security. He has to say that, that's the justification before

the Supreme Court.

My next guest says that the tariffs are actually making the U.S. less safe. She argues disrupting supply chains makes American defense production more

expensive and could drive away overseas buyers.

Shannon K O'Neil is the Senior Vice President and Director of Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, and written this excellent, excellent

piece in the article in "Foreign Affairs."

Shannon, the thing -- as I read your article, I sort of wanted to scream and throw something at the wall as if to say, why? Because what you are

advancing is this classic argument that tariffs are generally bad in the long run, short run, maybe. But they make you the global, et cetera.

So we are seeing that. Why doesn't the administration people like Howard Lutnick, the USTR, why are they so wedded to this policy you know?

SHANNON K O'NEIL, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT AND DIRECTOR OF STUDIES AT THE COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: You know, as I listen to them, their sort of

theory of the case is that the United States will really reindustrialize. That we can bring all of that that used to be done here in the 1950s and

1960s back to the United States, and I think the challenge was this theory. We will see. They are trying it out. Well see if this case works.

But already the data we are seeing shows that trade is down both imports but also exports from U.S. companies, that manufacturing jobs are down, not

up, that we are not seeing this reindustrialization in the short term. And all the uncertainty around it is creating problems in the long term.

And they are really focused so far on the commercial side of it. Right? They are focused on the cars, they are focused on the iPhones or even the

microwaves as the Vice President has mentioned. But what I am really concerned about is actually the Defense, you know, the weapons of war, the

way that we will make ourselves and our National Security stronger and there are real costs there as well.

QUEST: If this continues, as it is likely to do so, the head of the WTO, Ngozi Iweala told me that, you know, 60 to 70 percent of world trade is

still being done on WTO terms, best trade terms. It is only the U.S. that seems to have done -- and as we are seeing a rewiring of global trade

routes, particularly with Defense, the U.S. will eventually lose out.

O'NEIL: You know, that's right. In fact, in just these first nine months, we are seeing global trade up not down, the trade with the United States is

down in relative terms. So you're already starting to see these rewiring of supply chains. And interestingly, as trade negotiators are coming to

Washington to work with the Trump administration, they are also going to New Delhi, to Brasilia, to Europe, to Indonesia, to all kinds of countries

all over the world, because they are striking other agreements there.

And as those agreements set in, they will set the rules of the game for the 85 percent of the globe's GDP, which is not the United States.

QUEST: So the U.S. is doing okay, though. Growth is there. Unemployment is down. Inflation is a bit high, but I would suggest to you that whilst this

-- what we are seeing on a macroeconomic state is a loss of opportunity that the U.S. could be doing better, could be growing faster, could be

making more, and it is the tariffs that are pulling that down, but it will never pull it because the economy is so active and febrile, it will never

pull it down all the way.

O'NEIL: Yes. You know the United States economy in the end is a pretty closed economy. Trade is just not that big a part of the overall economy.

And we are seeing lots of foreign direct investment come into the United States, not necessarily because of the tariffs, but really because of the

promise of A.I. and energy and we are just seeing it swamping the economy and increasing growth in many different parts of the country.

But there are tailwinds. And as you say, if we didn't have tariffs, if we were seeing manufacturing outside of A.I. growing, then we could see even

more growth. And the challenge of A.I. and energy is, it is pretty concentrated. And so far, it isn't creating lots of jobs. It is these other

industries, the sort of mom and pop industries where you actually see real job growth for Americans.

[16:25:10]

QUEST: I want to just finish on this idea of which is more worrying. I mean, I can see the policy reasons for the tariffs to bring back, but when

tariffs are being used, as the new phrase now is geoeconomics, as a weapon of economics as they are with Colombia or India or Brazil, where the tariff

has absolutely no relationship to the reason for why it is being imposed, then all bets are off and people in your business really can't do any

forecasting because you don't know what is coming next.

O'NEIL: Right, that's true. And look, when you look at the history of the world and the United States, there are times when targeted tariffs,

specific tariffs do make a lot of sense. There are some industries that you want because you want to be safer. You want to make semiconductors. You

want to make basic medicine so that you have access to them.

But these blanket tariffs, 50 percent here, 10 percent there, that just changes costs for everything. It raises costs for everything. It doesn't

protect particular interests and that makes the U.S. economy slower, not faster.

QUEST: I am grateful to you, Shannon. Thank you very much indeed for joining us. As I say goodbye to you, I am going to enjoy a nice cup of tea.

Now, when I pour this tea, I want you to remember, it has come from Fortnum & Mason, it is an institution. However, the price of tea is going up, and

why? Because of tariffs. I will explain. One lump or two.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Now, as many of you know, I am very particular. I do like a nice cup of tea and it is not just me, people -- many British people. We take great

pride in our blends of tea.

For instance, the late Maggie Smith in "The Second Best Exotic Marigold Hotel." This is just so delicious.

("THE SECOND BEST EXOTIC MARIGOLD HOTEL" VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

MURIEL DONNELLY, FICTIONAL CHARACTER: Tea is a herb that's been dried out, so to bring it back to life, you have to infuse it in boiling water. That

is boiling water. Every -- everywhere I've been in this country, a slap down, a cup of tepid nonsense, you know, with the tea bag lying beside it.

Which means I've got to go through the ridiculous business of dunking it in the lukewarm piss, waiting for the slightest change of color to occur.

And at my age, I haven't got the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[16:30:34]

RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: That is so -- that is so good. Well, look, tea is now facing a double lump of trouble because of tariffs.

And first of all, you have the ending of the de minimis rule.

Now, the de minimis rule means, of course, that basically any goods under the -- goods under $200 now attract a tariff, whereas before they did not.

So you have the de minimis rule which is there. But then if you add on to the de minimis rule, the U.S. authorities have now said that since tea

leaves come from India and China, they cannot be considered point of origin in the United Kingdom or in Britain, and therefore no more 10 percent

tariff.

Instead, it's 50 percent from India or 30 percent from China or whatever else. These two forceful actions, loss of de minimis, point of origin, the

man who is going to explain to me is Chief Executive Tom Athron of Fortnum and Mason.

What does this mean for the price of dealing with selling your online tea or whatever?

TOM ATHRON, CEO, FORTNUM AND MASON: Well, so thank you for having me on, Richard. Good to see you. And I have to say, you poured that beautifully.

No, I'll have it black, actually. And if only all of our customers were like Maggie Smith, I'd be absolutely thrilled.

QUEST: Yes.

ATHRON: What it means, I mean, what it fundamentally means is that American tea drinkers, and there are 159 million Americans who drink tea every day,

are paying more for their tea.

QUEST: Give me a range, because it means you now have to ship the tea.

ATHRON: Yes.

QUEST: And charge the duty. So give me what sort of numbers are we talking about? Let's say the tea is 25, 30 bucks.

ATHRON: Yes. That's right. So in effect, what's happening is that the cost to the American consumer as they get to check out on our Web site is 50

percent higher than it previously was.

QUEST: Really?

ATHRON: 50 percent. Yes. And I think that's a -- I think that's a shame. And it's a shame partly because, as you say, the reason that this has

happened is because they've removed the de minimis threshold under which orders went into from our site, from our site in the U.K., go into the

States without being charged any duties or tariffs. And of course, they've changed the country of origin. So they're now saying that tea comes from

China or India.

QUEST: So clearly nobody is buying your tea or -- you know, in the U.S. Do greatly reduced, one should say. But what about other products? Jams and

biscuits and things like that, where it would be a 10 percent tariff.

ATHRON: That's right. So the vast majority of things that are sold at Fortnum's are made and manufactured in the U.K., and therefore our country

of origin, U.K. and so they just attract a 10 percent tariff. But tea specifically has been hit really hard. And I think -- I actually think

that's a shame for so many tea drinkers in the U.S.

QUEST: With the tariff, whether it be the higher tariff or the lower tariff, are you able to absorb any of it or do you have to pass it on?

ATHRON: No. I think we can absorb some. In fact, there are different ways in which we can do it. One of the things that we have done is reduced

shipping charges to the U.S. which is just a way of making life slightly easier for our American customers. But of course, the other thing that

American customers can do and are still doing is coming to visit us in the U.K.. And so we saw a large number of visitors from the U.K., from the U.S.

into our shops in London, which was fantastic to see.

QUEST: Right. But you see even there, the British government didn't exactly help when they removed tax free shopping some years ago. I mean, in one

fell swoop, the prices of things went up 20 percent.

ATHRON: That's true, although Fortnum's, of course, is a food business.

QUEST: Food. Yes. Yes.

ATHRON: We attract a much lower VAT rate. So it didn't hit us in the same way that it did others. I think that's fair. But I think the evidence does

suggest that whilst Americans were visiting us in the summer over in the U.K., they were doing some of those big shops, those big shops, so things

like handbags and fashion overseas. Places like Milan and Paris I know have benefited disproportionately from that. But actually we haven't seen quite

the same hit.

QUEST: Do you get the feeling sometimes it's just, I mean, you're looking forward to Christmas now.

ATHRON: Yes.

QUEST: The hamper.

ATHRON: Yes.

QUEST: The, you know, the Fortnum hamper that is ubiquitous and sent lovingly around the world.

ATHRON: Around the world.

QUEST: What are you going to do with that?

ATHRON: So Christmas continues as it goes.

QUEST: Oh, but you're canceling Christmas.

ATHRON: We're not. We're definitely not canceling Christmas. And of course, the logistics that sit behind all of these tariffs are working seamlessly.

You get charged the tariff at checkout online. And so your parcel will still arrive. You're not going to be faced with any charges on delivery or

anything like that.

[16:35:02]

So that's all sort of fine. And Christmas I think is shaping up to be pretty good. I'm quite -- I'm excited about Christmas. One of the things

that we're really excited about is that on Monday we unveil the biggest architectural intervention we've made in our Piccadilly headquarters for a

generation. We've built a double helix spiral staircase going from bottom to top, designed by Ben Pentreath. Absolutely beautiful.

I saw it today actually. I took a number of people through it. It's actually two staircases that intertwine around each other. There are only a

handful in the world, one in Paris or one just outside Paris actually.

QUEST: Why did you do it?

ATHRON: At the Chateau de Chambord and one in the Vatican. Well, I'm really keen for people to find their way off the ground floor of Fortnum's. Our

lifts are small.

QUEST: They really are. But the staircases --

ATHRON: The staircases are wonderful. But we have built the most beautiful staircase in London.

QUEST: Well, I think that's an invitation for -- to come and have a look at it.

I'm very grateful. Oh, no, you don't need these. You've got plenty in your shop. I'll take care of these.

ATHRON: You're more than welcome.

QUEST: Thank you very much indeed. I do like a biscuit.

Now, OpenAI, as we continue tonight, has unveiled a Web browser built around the company's extremely popular chatbot. ChatGPT Atlas is the latest

challenge to Google's Chrome browser, and it could accelerate a shift to A.I. based searches.

Lisa Eadicicco is the tech editor at CNN Business. Her latest article for CNN.com describes it as a battle for the future of the internet, with me

now.

Well, when we look at this, it's inevitable, isn't it? Because everybody is trying to do everybody else's business. The sausages are being made now.

It's ugly. You don't want to know how, but the fallout will be dramatic.

LISA EADICICCO, CNN BUSINESS TECH EDITOR: So I think what we're seeing is a shift. And this is a shift that's been in the works for a while. A shift

away from those list of links that you see when you're searching for something to more A.I. based search results. And this is something that I

think for OpenAI is a big statement that it wants ChatGPT to be more than just a resource that you go to when you want to get something done, more

than just a destination or a productivity tool, but something that really serves as kind of the gateway, the pathway to everything you do on the Web.

QUEST: Right.

EADICICCO: And it's not just about serving you to other Web sites and the navigation experience, but you can also use ChatGPT on those Web sites. So

if you're reading an article and there's something in that article like a specific term or a paragraph that you're curious about, you can ask

ChatGPT.

QUEST: So the interesting thing here is we don't know the boundaries of this, because what you've just beautifully and eloquently said is that what

Chat is doing is not a walled garden in the traditional sense. It is basically superimposing itself on other people's material. It's keeping you

within Chat, but it's not -- it's not sort of saying you'll only ever use us. And I wonder, we don't know the parameters for how far this will go.

EADICICCO: So what we're seeing today is you do have to summon ChatGPT. So it's not, based on what we know, it's not like ChatGPT is constantly

crawling everything or looking at you can press a button in the sidebar and pull it up, and then paste what you want into ChatGPT and ask for it. But I

do think this does open up a lot of questions about how we use the internet in the future, to your point. Are we moving towards a world where we're

sharing our screens and the content we're looking at and the things that we're doing online directly with a virtual assistant instead of making more

intentional choices there.

QUEST: Absolutely. And related to that, which is fascinating, we don't know who the winners are going to be because, for example, Google has completely

disrupted its own search business by putting its A.I. at the top, which now sees a dramatic reduction in A.I. -- in searches people clicking through

it. If I'm not -- if I'm right.

EADICICCO: So Google is still the undisputed king of Web browsers for sure. I don't think that's going to change anytime soon, but I do agree that

there is this disruption happening and Google is playing into that because it has to. If it doesn't, then it leaves the door open for OpenAI and other

A.I. companies to come in and fully replace it. So I do think it's a smart move by Google, but I agree that it's kind of shifting some of its business

model for sure.

QUEST: Grateful to have you with us tonight. Shame you're not here. You could have enjoyed one of these delicious, you call them cookies, we call

them biscuits. Whatever you call.

EADICICCO: Hopefully another time.

QUEST: Yes, absolutely. I'll bring some back. How about that? I'll bring some back. I'll bring some back in my luggage and I'll share them with you.

Now, Tesla shares have slid in after-hours trading on its latest results. Why should this be? Well, the company's adjusted net income fell 30

percent. It missed on EPS, but strong revenue. $28 billion. First increase in two years.

Anna is with me. Anna Cooban.

The classic curates egg. Good in parts. I don't fully understand. Its revenues up. It's missed on this. It's missed on that. Was this just

expectations gone wild?

[16:40:05]

ANNA COOBAN, CNN BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS CORRESPONDENT: Well, slightly yes. I mean, there was -- there was an expectation, Richard, that they would do

quite well in terms of profit. We saw $1.8 billion worth of profit this -- the last quarter. And that's because Tesla sold almost half a million

vehicles, which was a very good going for the company. But this really belies, if you look under the hood, no pun intended, this really belies the

problems Tesla is facing.

One of the main reasons why they've had such a great third quarter is because many Americans were rushing to buy EVs ahead of a deadline where

essentially a consumer tax credit worth around $7,500 was being cut, the U.S. government decided to cut this. So many people tried to get in there

first soon to buy their Tesla. Also, there are issues with, you know, also in the policy space that Tesla is facing, the end of the regulatory credit

regime, which essentially allowed other automakers to buy government credits from Tesla if they fail to meet their own EV targets. That was a

huge money maker from Tesla. It generated around $11 billion since 2019.

QUEST: Right.

COOBAN: And that's also gone.

QUEST: But the idea that Tesla was being shunned because people wanted nothing to do with it, or that Tesla was in deep trouble because China's EV

manufacturers are outselling around the world. Is that still true? Tesla is in trouble.

COOBAN: Tesla is in trouble. So everything I've just mentioned, the policy challenges they're facing, we'll have to see what impact that makes in the

next few months.

QUEST: Right.

COOBAN: But then also it's going to be hard for many consumers on both sides of the pond to forgive Elon Musk for his role in U.S. politics. There

were protests outside Tesla dealerships. We saw sales fall. We saw Tesla's shares fall, and also worries from investors and Tesla's board around Elon

Musk's commitment to the company. You there was talk around trying to get him to focus on the company, to move away from politics.

And there have been incentivization from the board, a huge proposed pay package to try and get Elon Musk sort of more focused on Tesla. But yes,

you mentioned there as well, rising competition from Chinese EV makers.

QUEST: Right.

COOBAN: It's a really -- a huge smorgasbord of challenges for the company.

QUEST: Smorgasbord of challenges. I like a smorgasbord. I think we'll have one of those. Have a biscuit. You're at least upstairs. You can come and

get one for yourself.

And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for this evening. I'm Richard quest in London. Whatever you're up to in the hours ahead, I hope it's profitable.

"MARKETPLACE EUROPE" is next.

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(MARKETPLACE EUROPE)

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