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Quest Means Business
President Trump Pardons Binance Co-Founder Changpeng Zhao; Oil Prices Rise as U.S. Announce New Russia Sanctions; New Ballroom is Latest Change to Historic White House; NBA Stars Among 34 Indicted in Alleged Schemes Linked to Mafia; Tariff Advocate Says Trump Has Made Progress on Rebalancing Relationships; King Charles Prays Publicly with Pope Leo During Vatican Trip. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired October 23, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:21]
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": Closing bell ringing on Wall Street and its green on the charts. They're ringing the
closing bell. International Listings doing the deed today. Yes, sir. Come alone, please. Bring trading -- one, two, three. Now, good strong gavels.
The green we have had all day. This market wants to rally, despite yesterday's falls, but a strong session.
So those are the markets and these are the main events we are talking about today: President Trump has pardoned the co-founder of the crypto exchange
Binance, possibly paving the way for its return to the United States.
The U.S. sanctions Russia's two largest oil companies. We will discuss what that actually means.
And Viking unveils its 100th ship only a year after going public. The chief executive of Viking Cruises will be with us on this program tonight live.
Delighted to have that.
We are indeed live from London. It is Thursday, October the 23rd. I am Richard Quest and I mean business.
Good evening.
In the last few hours, President Trump has pardoned the founder of a crypto exchange that does major business with his family. It is Changpeng Zhao who
is the co-founder of Binance.
Last year, he was sentenced to four months in prison on a money laundering charge. As part of the settlement, Binance admitted to sanctions violations
and engaging in money laundering activities. White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt says the case was part of the Biden administration's war
on cryptocurrency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This was an overly prosecuted case by the Biden administration. Even the judge in the case
admitted that the Biden administration was pursuing an egregious over sentencing of this individual, and the previous administration was very
hostile to the cryptocurrency industry.
So the President wants to correct this overreach.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Well, so far, so good. But the Trump family has close ties to Binance. Their crypto firm, which is called World Liberty Financial, is
hosted on Binance, the exchange and Binance accepted a $2 billion investment, which was paid in stablecoins issued by the Trumps. Needless to
say, Democrats are livid.
Senator Elizabeth Warren is accusing the President of corruption, "If Congress does not stop this kind of corruption, it owns it." Senator Cortez
Masto says "Zhao belongs in jail, but that Trump didn't care as long as he can make a quick buck." And the former Labor Secretary, Robert Reich,
accuses Trump of running a pay-to-pardon scheme.
Kevin Liptak is at The White House. Allison Morrow is in New York.
I am going to start tonight with you, Kevin, if I may while we've still got a White House.
Kevin, the reality is, we can look to see why, but the justification for this pardon is thin at best.
KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, and they are claiming that it is essentially a corrective measure to try and reverse some of the
crackdown that President Biden undertook against the crypto industry. They are saying, for example, that the sentence was perhaps too long. It was
only four months. So I am not sure how serious that claim is.
But, you know, the charges that were filed against him were quite serious. You know, Janet Yellen was the Treasury Secretary at the time said that
essentially Binance had allowed these actors to support things like child sexual abuse and illegal narcotics and terrorism. And so these were a
pretty serious offenses that he actually pled guilty to.
And so their claim that they were trying to reverse what was a crackdown on the crypto industry by the Biden administration in a way, kind of ignores
what the alleged crime or actual crime that he pled guilty to actually was. But there is a pattern we've seen here. You know, the President also
pardoned Ross Ulbricht, who is the founder of Silk Road, the sort of black market web place. And so, you know, there is a pattern that's emerging here
of the President really trying to loosen some of these restrictions at the same time that his family is making an enormous amount of money from
crypto, you know, more than they have ever made from their property ventures and so you can see how easily all of this is intertwined.
[16:05:07]
QUEST: And you've elegantly -- grandly elegantly take me to Allison, because that's the next part, isn't it? We cannot divorce the relationship
between Donald Trump, the Trump family, the crypto industry and Binance.
ALLISON MORROW, CNN BUSINESS SENIOR EDITOR: Absolutely. I mean, keep in mind, the Trump family hasn't been in crypto that long. It has only been
about a year since they launched World Liberty Financial, their main kind of crypto venture, and since then, it has forged connections with people
like or with companies like Binance and it has accepted investments and all kinds of, you know, kind of more P.R.-related puffing up to, to increase
the value of that asset and that has added a ton of worth to the family -- to the family holdings.
QUEST: You know, I feel your sympathy in a sense, or in a sense, the difficulty here is how to put the facts forward without coming to an
inevitable conclusion that the thing stinks, basically. I mean, that's me saying it, others may not sign on to it, but listening to what Kevin says
and listening to what you've said, that seems to be the conclusion that the critics are saying.
MORROW: Absolutely. I mean, you can also look at other crypto relationships that the family has facilitated. Justin's son is a Chinese crypto mogul who
was facing civil fraud charges under the Biden administration. Well, he pumped tens of millions of dollars into the Trump meme coins, into World
Liberty Financial, and those charges from the SEC under Trump just kind of disappeared.
You know, you could say that they're not connected, but it seems like a pretty clear connection. A lot of those enforcement measures from financial
regulators and the DOJ are kind of subtly disappearing.
QUEST: It is fascinating. I mean, you and I both and Kevin, all of us, we've been in this business for quite a while between us all, and we've
really never seen anything quite like this.
Thank you for joining us tonight. We will talk more. Thank you.
Now, another story we are watching very closely. Oil prices sharply up after the U.S. announced those new sanctions against Russia, and what was
interesting is both the benchmarks Brent and WTI spiked. You can see five percent.
The U.S. Treasury Department said it is targeting Russia's two main companies, Rosneft and Lukoil blocking any U.S. entity from doing business
with them, and -- and this is the key, it says any foreign financial institution risks being sanctioned as well, so-called secondary say
sanctions.
Russia's Vladimir Putin was unmoved. He said no self-respecting country ever does anything under pressure.
Anna Cooban is with me.
Anna, they are very large entities, and they sell a lot of oil. Tell me more about it, please.
ANNA COOBAN, CNN BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS REPORTER: Yes, Richard.
Well, you're right. Really, these sanctions are big hitting today. Rosneft and Lukoil, these are the two biggest Russian oil companies. They together
account for over half of Russia's crude oil exports. But as you mentioned, the real interesting detail here is not what the U.S. is going to be doing
to its own companies, penalizing them from engaging with these companies. It is what they are going to be doing to all of the companies trying to buy
Russian oil outside of its jurisdiction.
So it is not just about U.S. companies and how they are involved with Russia, it is about how pretty much everyone else and the rest of the world
deals with Russia. Now, that's of particular interest to two countries. You've got China and India.
Since Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022, India, for example, has snapped up around 38 percent of Russia's crude oil. That's a huge increase from where
it was before. This is because the oil was cheap and it seemed like a good bargain.
However, in recent months, we've seen real secondary sanctions, punishment from the United States on India for continuing to buy this oil. There was a
25 percent tariff on India's goods into the United States applied just a few months ago.
Now, will this additional sanctions, the threat of these extra sanctions really make the difference with India? Will it be the nail in the coffin
for India's continued relationship? Economic relationship with Russia?
QUEST: Right.
COOBAN: That is to be seen.
QUEST: Can I just interrupt you? Because that's an interesting point. Why is the thinking that these -- I mean, the U.S. has already done secondary
sanctions on India, 50 percent and all of this sort of thing. Why is the thinking -- what is it about these that might make a difference?
COOBAN: Because these are yet another blow to potentially India's economy. We've already got reporting from Reuters today that some Indian oil
companies are thinking about curtailing or reducing their imports of Russian oil.
[16:10:04]
So this is yet another impact on India's economy. We already have a 50 percent overall tariff on India's goods. This is the last thing that India
would want. And this is potentially music to Donald Trump's ears, Richard, because this is what he wants. He wants to be limiting the number of
customers for Russia's oil because Russia's oil makes up a huge part of Russia's revenues, which are allowing it to continue to finance its war in
Ukraine.
But whether or not these new sanctions actually work is really dependent on two things, on the practicalities of it, whether or not the U.S. can
enforce these sanctions, whether or not it can convince the rest of the world that it is prepared to enforce them and whether or not Russia will
try to evade them.
We know that Russia has been quite skillful in evading sanctions over the past few years. Yes, there are some pretty big details here in these new
sanctions, but the real impact will be can they be enforced? What will the practical details be in the next few years?
QUEST: Fascinating. I mean, it is one of the things -- thank you, Anna. Anna Cooban with me.
Those sanctions that Anna is talking about come as Europe is racing to build up its defenses in the face of Russian provocations. Germany is
investing in its military at levels that we've not seen since the Cold War, and Europe is proposing a drone war.
Benefiting companies like Rheinmetall. Shares in the German arms manufacturer are up almost 200 percent this year in the German exchanges.
Our Fred Pleitgen sat down with the CEO of Rheinmetall, who says the pressure from President Trump really is having an effect.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Are you seeing then a Trump effect in Europe as far as defense spending is concerned?
Because he does say that he is causing Europe to step up defense spending?
ARMIN PAPPERGER, CEO, RHEINMETALL: It works. The pressure from the Americans is very high, and I think without the pressure from America, the
German government and also the European governments would not make that decision.
So, yes, it works.
PLEITGEN: What kind of things right now are necessary and what kind of things are being purchased?
PAPPERGER: Everything at the moment. So priority number one is for sure ammunition, air defense is priority number two. Then all the vehicles, but
also on the naval stuff, a lot of naval stuff will come on the Navy side. The expectation is that Germany will place -- only Germany will place over
the next five years, up to 50 billion euro on naval side.
PLEITGEN: There are people who say that the war in Ukraine spells the end of armored land vehicles. If you look at it right now, you look at the
frontline, there is basically a kill zone between the Ukrainians and the Russians, where the Russians try to attack, maybe with motorcycles or even
on foot. But drones rule the air and they destroy a lot of armored vehicles.
You produce a lot of armored vehicles. Does that have a future?
PAPPERGER: The Ukrainians very clearly say without armored vehicles, we are lost. You cannot win a war only with drones. A drone is one factor. But
there are a lot of other factors.
PLEITGEN: How do you protect armor effectively against drones in the age of drone swarms? In the age of artificial intelligence?
PAPPERGER: There are three ways. One way is to have a passive protection. The passive protection are the cages that are set, yes. the second point is
to have an active protection on the vehicles. An active protection is a small countermeasure to kill the drones. And the third thing is to have an
active protection outside the vehicle, which is, for example, the Sky Ranger. These are the three areas that you can use to protect your
vehicles.
PLEITGEN: And I saw that recently, the Chinese had banned European defense companies receiving their rare earths. How big was the impact of that?
Because you did take a pretty big dip in your stock for a day or two, I saw.
PAPPERGER: The supply chain is one very, very important thing. At the moment. We have no risks because of our stocking strategy, and our process
is that we try to have in our stocks, always materials for two or three years. This is exactly what we do. If it is a raw materials, if it is
nitrocellulose, it is all the things that you need.
PLEITGEN: How important is the U.S. market for you?
PAPPERGER: It is a very important market. If you see what happens now over the next years, I never thought that this could be possible. But the U.S.
and the European market is, the investments nearly on the same size, but --
PLEITGEN: For defense investments?
PAPPERGER: Yes, it is unbelievable. For the real investments, because the budget for personnel and other things is not growing as strong as for
investments. And if you see what happens for Rheinmetall and this is what we expect, we expect over the next years that we have a potential of more
than 50 billion every year out of the European Union side, and there is a huge potential also in the United States of America.
There are huge programs and new artillery program, the new infantry fighting vehicle, the new truck program, if you combine all that thing, we
are at the moment in the United States in a competition that is growing up to $80 billion.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[16:15:15]
QUEST: Phenomenal numbers, 50 billion in Europe, 80 billion in the U.S.
Now, when we return, there you go, live pictures of The White House East Wing or what is left of it. It is extraordinary. Demolished to make way for
President Trump's massive ballroom, and not surprisingly, the list of donors funding this project has sparked outcry.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: The White House has now released a list of the donors that are paying for the addition of the Trump giant ballroom. The building's East
Wing has been completely demolished to make way for the project. Its estimated at least $200 million. The White House says it is being paid with
the likes of Apple, Amazon, Microsoft and Lockheed Martin.
Also, you've got Google, Coinbase, Comcast and Meta, and President Trump says the space is badly needed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Over the years, many presidents have made changes. This obviously would be the
biggest change. But this was something they wanted for at least 150 years. I thought I would bring this out because this is going to be probably the
finest ballroom ever built.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Whether it is or not, the President said The White House has undergone renovations before, so it was rebuilt in 1817 after the British
troops set it on fire during the War of 1812, and they burned almost the thing to the ground.
Now, then you go to 1902 and you get a renovation by Theodore Roosevelt, what's now known as the West Wing, where the President -- the East Wing has
been traditionally the First Ladies' department, the West Wing, of course, is the President's and that was remodeled in that for The Oval Office.
And then you get the interior being redone completely -- and exterior, the Truman Balcony as it is now known being from 1949 to 1952. So this is a --
this is perhaps the sizable renovation with the balcony.
In all of these cases, the works were either structural necessity or planned well in advance with enormous amounts of consultation. Arguably,
Presidents Trump's ballroom is on a different scale because the consultation didn't exist, the plans weren't released and no details were
given with the East Wing being destroyed.
The historian, John A. Lawrence joins me from Philadelphia, and I will caveat, you were, sir, chief-of-staff to former Democratic House Speaker
Nancy Pelosi.
[16:20:22]
But even so, your historical credentials are historic, are spectacular. So tell me, why are people up in arms about this?
JOHN A. LAWRENCE, HISTORIAN AND FORMER CHIEF-OF-STAFF TO REP. NANCY PELOSI: Well, the East Wing is a historic part, an iconic part of the of The White
House complex. It is the section of The White House that visitors would come through traditionally for public events and tours. It has been used by
First Ladies for a hundred years, by key White House staff people.
And it was built like the West Wing, as you mentioned, in proportion to The White House. It sets down lower than the building. It doesn't obstruct the
main White House itself.
An enormous contrast to what the President is doing, as well as, as you mentioned, Richard, the manner in which he is building this ostentatious
addition to the building, which is bigger than The White House itself.
QUEST: So with that in mind, you describe it, you're on the record as describing it as being -- it is sending a message of a maniacal, autocratic
concept of what the job is and what his role is. This can always be filed under, you know, just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.
LAWRENCE: Exactly. There is a process for doing this. When President Truman for example, renovated the inside, basically gutted The White House during
his administration, that was done. He set up a commission with the Congress. There was extensive public comment. There was a special
appropriations set up. That's a completely different world than this sort of this secretive effort that the President has obviously gone through.
He obviously lied to the American people by saying specifically that The White House would not be damaged. Not only damaged, he destroyed, he
removed the entire West Wing. So it is not public, it is being financed by multibillionaires who have vast corporate business interests before the
administration and regulatory agencies. It bears no resemblance whatsoever to any of the improvements or minor modifications that have been done in
the past.
QUEST: If we look, for example, also at the paving over of the Rose Garden, and the way in which, you know, that now looks like the patio at Mar-a-
Lago, I suppose what I am trying to do is avoid the pearl clutching, gosh, this is awful, because it is change. Gosh, this is dreadful because, you
know, it is a different taste and I just don't like it. We have to go beyond that, don't we to an extent, John to understand why the critics are
angry about this. Why you are upset about this?
LAWRENCE: Well, I think part of it is the cost. You said $200 million. They've recently re-upped that to $300 million. If it is like other Trump
construction projects, it will be more than that, and I think that's part of it, Richard. It is the secretive way. It is the way this is being done
imperiously without the ordinary processes, without the notification of the Congress or the press or the public.
Look, the President says that presidents have wanted this for 150 years. I don't think that's true. I don't think there is anything remotely like
that. But, you know, if they need a big place to hold events and maybe they do four blocks away from The White House is the Mellon Ballroom, which is
as extravagant a ballroom, holds 700 people, and you could hold an event in it every day for the next 17 years at the current rental rate, and still
not come up with the cost of the Trump expansion.
QUEST: Right. You are well attuned to public -- what the public wants and likes. How do you think Americans are going to, in the longer run, view
this? I can see it going one of two ways. The Trump ballroom gets put up and everybody -- half the country says magnificent. It looks glamorous,
wonderful. And the other half horrified like they are with the Oval Office, with all the new gold and glitz in there.
LAWRENCE: Look, I think once it is there, it is there. It is not going to be -- it is not going to be torn down and so people will accommodate it.
Whether or not they will try to tone down the bling or not, one doesn't -- I suspect that all the gold affectation that the President has added to the
Oval Office probably doesn't have a very long life expectancy after he leaves The White House.
But a big building of this sort, Washington is going to have to make -- accommodate it and it is going to exist, and other presidents are going to
use it.
Clearly, look, like everything else in the United States these days, it breaks down along partisan lines. But I think there are quietly in Congress
and the Architectural and Historic Preservation Community, a lot of heads are being buried in hands today looking at this monstrosity that this
bling-obsessed President puts up despite formal processes for how you go about making modifications to something as important as The White House.
[16:25:32]
QUEST: I am glad to have you with us tonight, sir. Thank you for joining us.
The director --
LAWRENCE: Thanks so much.
QUEST: -- of The Louvre Museum has admitted there were no cameras covering the entry point used in Sunday's break-in. The thieves used a second floor
balcony to gain access to the museum. And then, of course, they stole the French crown jewels worth over $100 million.
CNN's Melissa Bell reports on this audacious heist.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): New video appearing to show the moment robbers left The Louvre on their
mechanical lift, carrying off eight pieces from France's crown jewels. It took just seven minutes from the moment a member of the public called the
police on Sunday morning at 9:30, about suspicious individuals wearing motorcycle helmets outside the museum.
By 9:37 A.M., a museum alarm was triggered as the robbers, wearing yellow vests, broke into display cases before escaping through the window they had
used to get in.
The thieves made off with jewelry worth about $102 million, but historically priceless, items worn by French Queens in the 19th Century.
The headpiece, necklace and one earring of Queen Marie-Amelie, the large bodice bow and tiara of Empress Eugenie, the wife of Napoleon III.
The Louvre has now reopened to the public with a reckoning about the security failures that allowed its Apollo Gallery to be broken into.
LAURENCE DES CARS, PRESIDENT AND DIRECTOR, THE LOUVRE (through translator): Unfortunately, on the Apollo Gallery side, the only camera that is
installed is in a west direction and therefore does not cover the balcony affected by the break-in.
BELL (voice over): The window used by the robbers to get in and out of The Louvre are now something of a tourist attraction in its own right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it is like an eventful thing in Paris, and I think it is the new tourist attraction, honestly.
So were like, oh wow, this is happening in real life. So were like, you know what? Let's go take a picture. We just got here. So like, it is the
perfect time.
BELL (on camera): One hundred investigators are working on this case to try and figure out who was behind this most brazen of heists. They are
considering not just the equipment that was used by the robbers, but some of the things they left behind -- a glove, a helmet, one of the scooters,
they made their escape on, and of course, the truck that they are combing through for fingerprints.
But for now, a big breakthrough in this case remains elusive.
Melissa Bell, CNN, Paris.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: As you and I continue our evening conversation on business and economics, claims of rigged poker games and insider sports betting, details
of an FBI investigation potentially linking high profile sports figures to organized crime.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:31:24]
QUEST: Hello, I'm Richard Quest. A lot more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. I'll be speaking to the conservative economist and tariff advocate Oren Cass about
his plan for new world trading order. And, well, no kids, no casinos. It's Viking's unorthodox approach to cruises which has helped to grow the
largest cruise fleet in the world. I'll speak to the chief executive. Only after the headlines because this is CNN and here the news comes first.
President Trump has pardoned the co-founder of Binance, the world's largest crypto exchange currency. Changpeng Zhao had pleaded guilty to money
laundering charges in 2023. The White House says the case was part of the Biden administration's, in their words, war on cryptocurrency. Meanwhile,
Binance hosts the Trump family's crypto firm.
The Miami Heat guard Terry Rozier and the head coach of the Portland Trail Blazers' Chauncey Billups had been arrested. The FBI announced on Thursday
millions of dollars are being stolen by rigging poker games and sharing insider details to bet on NBA games. 13 members and associates of infamous
New York crime families are among the defendants.
The king, King Charles, has been making historic state visit to the Vatican. Pope Leo greeted the king and queen on Thursday, and then both
prayed together. It marks the first time a British monarch has publicly prayed with the Pope in 500 years.
So, as I just mentioned, two prominent figures in the NBA have been arrested with investigators saying insider information was used to bet on
various NBA matches and high tech equipment used to rig poker games.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSICA TISCH, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: That work uncovered a deliberate, technologically sophisticated operation designed to carry out
their crimes. They used custom shuffling machines that could read the order of cards, barcoded decks, and hidden cameras built into tables and light
fixtures.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Brynn Gingras is with me.
I don't know which I find more fascinating. All the technology to rig the poker games or the details of the bent NBA games. And what do we know about
that? Because that's in a sense is sort of the sexier part of it, how they rigged games or whatever.
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, we could choose both, right?
QUEST: Yes.
GINGRAS: Let's start with one of them, right? Let's start with Chauncey Billups, right, because he is probably the most recognizable name to come
out of these indictments, which include more than 30 people. And what authorities are associating him with, Richard, as you just mentioned there,
are those rigged poker games.
Chauncey Billups, again, a Hall of Famer in the NBA, current coach of the Portland Trail Blazers, what they say is that essentially he teamed up with
members of notorious New York City mafia family members, crime family members, to have these poker games all across the country, in L.A., in
Miami, in Las Vegas, in New York City, basically telling someone, hey, you have a chance to play poker with some legend named Chauncey Billups, come
play with us.
And what would happen is everyone at that poker table, except for that one person, was in on a rigged game, and that's where they used this high tech
technology according to the indictment.
QUEST: Wow.
GINGRAS: X-ray machines that could read those cards from underneath the table, hidden cameras, the, you know, the manipulated card shufflers, which
would basically determine who would get a better hand.
[16:35:02]
And millions of dollars was lost from people in this scheme and allegedly also then there were these, you know, old school mafia tactics that were
used to get people to pay up those winnings or to pay up the money, you know, extortion, robbery, all of those things. So that is part of that one
indictment involving allegedly Chauncey Billups.
Now there's that second indictment where you talk about what basically the FBI director Kash Patel described as insider trading for the NBA, and that
involves current player Terry Rozier. He is a guard with the Miami Heat. He actually used to play with the Charlotte Hornets. Some of the alleged
actions happening when he was playing with the Hornets. But what authorities are alleging here is that he would give co-conspirators
information about the games that were about to be played.
You know, whether someone was sick, whether someone was going to be sidelined, injury reports, and people would place bets on that information
and basically cash out with a lot of money. In one instance, they alleged Terry Rozier himself was coming out of the game, pulling himself from the
game, just to make sure a certain bet was won.
QUEST: Wow.
GINGRAS: Another person that some people, if you're familiar with the NBA, might recognize the name, is Damon Jones. Now he was a well-known Cavalier,
at one point was an assistant for that team, played alongside LeBron James. And even though LeBron James isn't actually named as someone in this
paperwork, it talks about how he actually allegedly gave inside information about James not playing in a game because he was injured, and then winning
a lot of money based on that information.
So some major allegations coming out of this major arrests all across the country and really just stunning the NBA world.
QUEST: Right. Right. And we will follow this with close interest. Thank you. I'm grateful.
GINGRAS: All right.
QUEST: The markets rose on Thursday with tech stocks leading the way. The Nasdaq gained nearly 1 percent. There's the numbers for you. The triple
stacker all up. Investors are pushing stocks near records despite economic concerns over shutdowns of the government and the tariffs. And so to Oren
Cass, who says the president's trade war has made progress in correcting long standing trade imbalances.
A year ago, before the administration took place, Oren was on QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. And then he told me the economists who were predicting doom were
incorrect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OREN CASS, FOUNDER, AMERICAN COMPASS: The last time we heard this much extraordinarily confident consensus among economists, it was, of course,
when they were unanimously telling the American people we needed to eliminate our tariffs on China and welcome China into the World Trade
Organization, because free trade with China would be wonderful for America. And they got that exactly wrong. And they're getting it exactly wrong again
because economists don't think very well about trade.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Now, Oren Cass writes that, although the president recognized the problem, his strategy has been haphazard and heightened uncertainty, and
that may be having an effect on the economy. Stocks have recovered and are near record highs. The data shows the president's policies have failed to
drive the hiring and manufacturing.
Oren Cass is the founder of American Compass. He serves as the director of policy for Mitt Romney's campaign in 2012. Oren is with me.
Good to see you, sir. I'm grateful that you're joining us tonight. The debate, the debate over the tariffs and what they will do long term to the
U.S. economy, you know, or the ability of the U.S. to rewrite the global rules on trade that is happening at the moment. Two very distinct views.
You're in the favor on the side that says it's a good thing and it's working.
CASS: Well, I think, you know, I'm glad you played that clip from a year ago, because I think, you know, we remember the way economists set their
hair on fire. Of course they did it again, what, you know, blew their hair up. I don't know what's more extreme than setting on fire when Trump
announced tariffs, you know, at these kinds of levels in April and their predictions have been wrong, their predictions have been wrong on technical
issues.
The 10-year yield has not gone the way they said it would. The value of the dollar has not gone the way they said it would. And they've been wrong
generally about the direction of the economy. Obviously markets have been very strong. Unemployment has remained low. Investment remains high.
QUEST: Right.
CASS: And we are seeing what we want to see, which is we're seeing the beginning of major investment in the United States, large commitments to
investment. Actually shovels breaking ground in a lot of places. That's the goal here. And it's finally starting to work.
QUEST: Well, we had somebody on the program yesterday who said exactly the opposite. Who said exactly the opposite, that, yes, there were a few chosen
projects, but that this idea of mass, I mean, a lot of the trade deals that were announced earlier, $500 billion there, $200 billion there, will never
come to fruition because there's no markers, they are too vague, there's no mechanism for execution.
[16:40:07]
The E.U. deal, for example, is all promise and so far not much delivery. So, yes, there is more investment, but it's not on the scale that people
like you would have us believe is the argument.
CASS: Well, the investment is, I'm not asking anyone to believe a scale other than the scale on which it's happening. I'm not referring to those
promises that may or may not come true. I'm referring to all of the massive corporations that are in fact saying we need to invest more in the United
States in part in response to the tariffs. Obviously, we've seen that from semiconductor companies. We've seen that from pharmaceutical companies.
We've seen that from automakers. We've seen that from JPMorgan announcing $1.5 trillion in investment commitments. And so, you know, obviously this
isn't something that happens overnight. I think it's frankly very embarrassing when somebody says, look at manufacturing jobs. Why haven't
manufacturing jobs gone up yet? Obviously you can't plan, let alone build, let alone hire for a factory in six months.
QUEST: Right.
CASS: Manufacturing jobs are something that you might see two or three years down the road. What we're looking for right now is how our producers
responding. Our producers responding by recognizing that they're going to have to make more investments in the U.S. if they want to serve the U.S.
market. And the answer is yes. And on the flip side, the question is, what happened to all of those predictions of catastrophe?
As far as I can tell, none of them have happened because, you know, as Jason Furman, the chair of Barack Obama's Council of Economic Advisers, has
said in "The New York Times," economists suffer from tariff derangement syndrome. For some reason, when this is the topic, instead of thoughtfully
analyzing the problem, they go a little bit crazy.
QUEST: Right. OK, let's just -- but this idea that you can rewrite the global trading rules certainly vis a vis the United States, but I want you
to listen to Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala who, as you know, is the head of the WTO. And when I spoke to her during UNGA week, she was very clear that, yes, a
change is underway, but the rest of the world isn't necessarily, when it comes to other trading relationships, following. Have a listen, sir.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NGOZI OKONJO-IWEALA. DIRECTOR-GENERAL, WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION: Certainly the unilateral actions of the U.S. of course the most tremendous disruption
to global trading rules that we've seen in 80 years. But based on the evidence and the fact we have, yes, it has disrupted global trade, but we
have found through our analysis that still 72 percent of world trade, goods trade is taking place on WTO terms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: So to the extent that the U.S. is rewiring the global trading patterns, the argument will be, yes, but long term to its disadvantage.
CASS: Well, I would first of all just challenge this idea that the U.S. is the greatest disrupter to the trade system in 80 years. Obviously that
honor goes to China, which joined the WTO and promptly sought to undermine every principle of free trade that the organization has ever stood for. The
organization's refusal to confront that, its inability to do anything about it, is why the WTO is, at this point, fairly irrelevant to the actual
direction that trade policy is going.
And what we're seeing the U.S. doing certainly in establishing very high tariffs on China and moving toward decoupling there, toward trying to
establish bilateral deals that are not on an MFN basis, we are moving beyond that world. We're moving to a world that's actually going to take
balanced trade seriously.
QUEST: And we will talk more about it so let's not leave it a year before we talk again. Thank you for joining us.
CASS: Thank you.
QUEST: Now, as we continue tonight, Viking has added its 100th cruise ship to its fleet. The chief executive is going to be telling me why Viking is
beating some of its Wall Street competition. And there he is.
We'll be with you, sir, immediately after the break.
QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:47:22]
QUEST: Coral reef ecosystems, which support a quarter of all marine life, have now reached a tipping point, according to recent reports.
Today on "Call to Earth," we visit South Florida's Atlantic coastline, where there's a unique approach to reef restoration.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAIN ASHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just off the shoreline of Hollywood, Florida, a destination city north of Miami, a new attraction is
being installed that its creators hope will make a lasting impact on those who visit it.
DR. SHELBY THOMAS, CO-FOUNDER/CEO, OCEAN RESCUE ALLIANCE INTERNATIONAL: This is an incredible moment, truly magical. It's been years in the making
and so excited to finally have this reef going out in the water.
ASHER: Part art, part science, the so-called "Guardians of the Reef" is a living installation spearheaded by scientist Shelby Thomas, founder of
Ocean Rescue Alliance International. The goal of the project is to promote both ecotourism and help restore marine life.
THOMAS: This is our fifth artificial reef project, but our first nearshore reef.
ASHER: Designed in partnership with city authorities, the underwater sculpture trail includes 50 reef structures across four shallow water
locations.
THOMAS: Most of our sites are easy, open water dives around 30 to 60 feet of water. But this one will be between eight and 15 feet of water. Often
diving natural systems and reefs cost a lot of money and training and skills, and this becomes a free resource not just to the public, but the
community to actually have and connect with on a daily basis.
ASHER: Floridian waters are home to the third largest barrier reef system on earth, known as the Florida Reef Tract. And like most coral ecosystems
around the world, it too is in a concerning state of decline.
THOMAS: Here in Florida, disease and warming temperature has been one of the biggest impacts on killing a lot of our reefs. Reefs are very
resilient, but we have to act fast.
ASHER: Thomas acted by collaborating with like minds from the worlds of art, engineering and science. She says it's taken nearly seven years and
more than 35 designs to get to this point.
THOMAS: So what you're looking at here is one of the habitat artificial reefs. There's 38 of them for this project.
ASHER: Each structure is custom made using sustainable materials to look and act like a natural reef, while also being a call to action.
THOMAS: We also have 12 artistic sculptures that are themed around "Guardians of the Reef: The Ocean Protectors and Warriors."
ASHER: There are also designs featuring symbolic marine life, and of course, opportunities for posting to your social media accounts.
THOMAS: We have two selfie stations. One is a selfie tail where you can become a mermaid, too. And if you come and take a photo at this site, you
also are taking a pledge to become an ocean warrior and guardian of the reef.
[16:50:10]
ASHER: While the large sculptures are intended to grab your attention, the most significant feature is the smallest, a pioneering innovation called a
coral lock.
THOMAS: Each reef has at least 200 to 300 coral lock receivers that we can then take the corals from the lab that are growing on the coral lock plugs
and simply be able to come out and screw them in to the structures and be able to outplant at scale.
ASHER: The organization's recently opened lab called "We Restore" was built as a collaborative space where both marine life and research can flourish.
THOMAS: We have modified the traditional coral locks specifically to fit these soft corals.
And it's meant to be like a rework for restoration. So we'll be growing corals of our own to help scale and outplant on our artificial reef
projects. But we're also holding space for other students, universities and nonprofit partners that might need to use this space to grow out coral,
oysters or mangroves.
ASHER: Ultimately, Shelby Thomas is dedicated to preserving our planet's natural ecosystems and believes a good way to start is by building a
foundation for their appreciation.
THOMAS: We're really using the power of art to encourage people to become ocean stewards. We want to be able to provide a voice to the ocean and to
marine ecosystems that need it, and that we're co-creating with nature as the engineer as well.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: It is "Call to Earth." Let me know what you're doing. The hashtag, #CalltoEarth.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: King Charles has become the first British monarch to pray with a Pope in 500 years. The king is making his state visit to the Vatican with
Queen Camilla. It's the first time since Pope Leo's election in May.
CNN's Christopher Lamb on the historic visit.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): History made in the Sistine Chapel.
POPE LEO XIV, HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: Let us pray.
LAMB: For the first time in more than half a millennium, an English king and a Pope prayed together. King Charles III and Queen Camilla on an
historic visit to the Vatican, emphasizing unity, and the king and the Pope's concern for the environment. The royal and Vatican choirs singing
together underneath the famous Michelangelo frescoes.
[16:55:02]
The king's trip is an extraordinary historical turnaround. 500 years ago, Henry VIII broke with Rome and established himself as head of the church of
England. For centuries, the papacy and the monarchy saw each other with suspicion. Now King Charles, who is the supreme governor of the Church of
England, and the first American Pope, have put those historic divisions to one side.
Charles and Pope Leo exchanged gifts and honors, a papal knighthood for Charles, and membership of the Order of the Bath for Leo, an ancient
British title traditionally given to heads of state.
Later at the Basilica of Saint Paul's outside the walls, Charles took part in another service. He was seated on a specially commissioned chair,
engraved with the motto, "That They May Be One." The king's visit comes as his brother Prince Andrew is embroiled in the Jeffrey Epstein scandal that
risked overshadowing this trip, and as the king continues with his treatment for cancer. At a moment of difficulty, the king is drawing on his
faith. And at the Vatican, showing his desire to build bridges between churches in a way no British monarch has done for centuries.
Christopher lamb, CNN, Rome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: A quick look and tell you how Wall Street clawed back much of its losses from Wednesday, 114 points. You can see the triple stack with the
Nasdaq getting the best of the day. But all the markets were up. And a quick look at the Dow 30 before we take a short break. There you go. A
little bit more green than red. No. Some large gains at the top and moderate losses at the bottom. "Profitable Moment" coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Tonight's "Profitable Moment," one of the challenges for jobs at the moment is the coverage, of course, of what's happening in the world and how
to bring it to your doorstep. At the end of the day, it's not for us here, me or any of my colleagues, to tell you what's right or wrong, what's good
or bad. We just lay it all out and let you make your own judgment. But what we do have a duty to do, and I think that's what we're doing quite well
tonight, is pointing out what doesn't appear to be business as usual.
So it is not business as usual to give pardons without many months of consideration to people who have been in prison. A smattering of time, like
George Santos or indeed like today at the Binance former CEO. It is not normal to knock down the East Wing of the White House without any
discussion, no proper form, no proper consultation, and then just put up something else instead.
Nor is it anywhere normal to have the sort of flip-flopping on foreign policy when it comes to, example, for Ukraine. But that's where I must end
by telling you it's not normal. What happens after that, the judgment you've made, that's up to you.
And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for tonight. I'm Richard Quest in London. Whatever you're up to in the hours ahead, I hope it's profitable. I'll see
you tomorrow.
END
