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Quest Means Business

Interview with Representative Raja Krishnamoorthi (D-IL); The Rise of A.I. and Its Impact on Human Connection. New Release: Epstein Mentioned Trump Multiple Times in Private E-mails; House Returns to Vote on Bill to End 43-Day Shutdown; Google Files Lawsuit to Stop Relentless Phishing Attacks. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired November 12, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:17]

PAULA NEWTON, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: So, it is a new all-time record for the Dow as the market breathes easy. The shutdown should be ending soon.

Those are the markets and these are the main events.

Newly released e-mails show Jeffrey Epstein mentioned Donald Trump in multiple private e-mails.

Google files a lawsuit to try and stop relentless phishing texts.

And how A.I. has the potential to damage the social fabric of our society. A leading academic in psychiatry joins us live, and live from New York. It

is Wednesday, November 12th. I am Paula Newton, in for Richard Quest and this is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.

Good evening. And tonight, House Democrats have released private e-mails written by Jeffrey Epstein that mentioned Donald Trump multiple times. Now,

one of those e-mails from the convicted sex offender was sent to his longtime associate, Ghislaine Maxwell, who is now behind bars for sex

trafficking. The other two were sent to the author, Michael Wolff.

Now, in 2011, Epstein wrote to Maxwell: "The dog that hasn't barked is Trump" redacted victims name. "Spent hours at my house with him." Now,

House Republicans later identified that victim as Virginia Giuffre, an Epstein survivor who died by suicide earlier this year.

Now, Giuffre did not accuse Trump of any wrongdoing in her recently published memoir. Mr. Trump did not send or receive any of these newly

released e-mails and he has not been accused of any crime. The President posted on social media: "The Democrats are trying to bring up the Jeffrey

Epstein hoax again because they will do anything at all to deflect on how badly they've done on the shutdown and so many other subjects."

Kevin Liptak joins us now from Washington. And you've been following all of this late breaking news, and as well as these e-mails though, the Trump

administration is now hell bent on making sure that nothing more is released, right?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, and that is kind of the context in which these e-mails have been put out by Democrats on the House

Oversight Committee.

You know, there is this furious effort underway in the House of Representatives led by Democrats, but including some Republicans to try and

compel the administration and the Justice Department to release all of the information that they have about Jeffrey Epstein.

You know, the House has been out of town for the last 54 days. For a long time, it did not appear as if they would have the votes necessary to create

this -- what is called a Discharge Petition to compel a vote on this matter. But in the past 54 days, what has happened is a special election

occurred in Arizona. A Democrat was elected there. She will be sworn in today.

Now, they do have those 218 votes to compel the documents release, and I think that has created sort of a flurry of activity. Certainly, that would

have led to the discussions and considerations to release these e-mails. Now, from the perspective of The White House, what you've seen is a furious

lobbying effort on the part of the President and top administration officials to try and convince this handful of Republicans to pull back from

supporting this measure.

So today, you had Representative Lauren Boebert, conservative Republican from Colorado. She was at The White House -- in The White House Situation

Room meeting with the Attorney General Pam Bondi, with the FBI Director Kash Patel, all in this effort to convince her to withdraw her name. What

we have been told is that she is not doing that. She remains sort of stalwart in her effort to get these documents released.

Another person that the President has been trying to reach is Nancy Mace, another conservative Republican from South Carolina. At last check, they

had not been able to link up. But certainly his message to her similar that this is not an effort that she should get behind. The other two names seem

less likely to be convinced by the President. One is Marjorie Taylor Greene, who has of late broken with the President. The other is Thomas

Massie, who has actually spearheaded this effort and he clearly isn't going to go against his own sort of initiative.

Now, the President seemed to be addressing those Republicans on social media when he said that only a very bad or stupid Republican would fall

into the trap of trying to bring up the Jeffrey Epstein matter again and he says there should be no deflections to Epstein or anything else. And so you

can kind of see how this is all really ramping up.

[16:05:03]

And clearly, the timing here is very, very important. As soon as Adelita Grijalva is sworn in and she puts her name on that petition, it is locked.

Those Republicans can't take their names off at that point and that is when that vote would be compelled on the House floor, and it would be expected

to pass.

And so you can see kind of the urgency that the administration and that President Trump is taking to try and tamp down on this, even as these e-

mails create even more outrage and furor.

NEWTON: Yes, and important point here. This is more political because the Senate and if not the Senate then the President can likely stop this

anyway. They just don't want to be seen to be stopping it.

Kevin Liptak for us from Washington. Appreciate that.

Now, the swearing in as Kevin has just mentioned, of new Democratic Congresswoman that could get a petition, as Kevin just said, to release the

Epstein files over the finish line.

Adelita Grijalva, a representative-elect from Arizona, is expected to be sworn in by Speaker Mike Johnson. And sources say Epstein survivors will

attend that event.

Now, she won a special election in September. Remember, her signature would force a floor vote to compel the U.S. Justice Department to release all the

Epstein files.

Speaker Johnson has said her swearing in was delayed by the government shutdown. That could end, of course, tonight, a scheduled vote in just

hours is expected to end the longest government shutdown in history.

Arlette Saenz picks up the story from there for us, from Capitol Hill. Arlette, just give us a sense of the dance up there now, in terms of which

votes are expected, and we are really just standing by for that swearing in, right?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That swearing in of Arizona Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva should happen any minute now. But

the House is in session for the first time in 54 days as they're beginning to hold votes in just a few hours on reopening the government. There will

be two key votes to keep an eye on in the coming hours. In a little over an hour, the House is expected to hold its first vote on the rule to bring up

this bill, and then a final passage vote is expected in the 7:00 P.M. hour here in Washington, D.C., and House Republican leaders have really spent

all day working to ensure that they have their caucus in line to get this government shutdown bill across the finish line.

Republicans are operating with a razor thin majority. They can only afford to lose two Republican votes on this bill to reopen the government.

Congressman Thomas Massie of Kentucky is expected to be one of those Republican no votes. He had opposed the initial plan that had passed the

House back in September and is widely expected that he will oppose this again. So that means that Speaker Johnson could only afford to lose one

more Republican vote, and that's if all Democrats stuck together.

Democratic Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries has been working behind-the- scenes trying to whip his members against this shutdown bill, as they are concerned that it does nothing to address the expiring Obamacare subsidies,

which are set to expire at the end of the year and send insurance premiums skyrocketing for many Americans.

Now, Jeffries has kind of brushed off the suggestion that there could be a large group of Democratic defections, but we will be keeping an eye on a

number of House Democrats to see where they stand on this measure, including Congressman Jared Golden of Maine, who is set to retire in 2027.

He actually had sided with Republicans back when the House passed their stopgap funding measure in September.

Now, Johnson today has also been working behind-the-scenes to guarantee a future vote on a controversial provision that was included in the Senate

negotiated bill. There was a provision in there that would allow senators to sue the DOJ or FBI if they subpoenaed them or investigated them without

notifying the Senate.

That is something that has not sat well with some conservative senators who want to see that language stripped from the bill. The issue with stripping

it right now is that if any changes that are made to the Senate negotiated deal, then would have to go back to the Senate. So House Republican leaders

are trying to avoid that from happening. So they've really been trying to work over the course of the day to keep their caucus together on this vote.

If this bill does, in fact pass, it still needs to go to President Donald Trump's desk for his signature. Only then would this government shutdown

officially be brought to an end. Currently, it is in its 43rd day, the longest shutdown in U.S. history.

NEWTON: Yes, and you really articulated there that it is not over the line yet. So it is important that we continue to pay attention to what happens

in the next few hours. Arlette Saenz, we will get back to you as soon as we get to that swearing in. But now we do move on to news from Google and the

fact that it is suing to break up a gang of cyber criminals that it says unleashed a massive wave of fraudulent text messages.

Now its lawsuit claims the group built a software platform to create counterfeit sites, licensed it to other scammers and trained them on how to

lure victims. Now, it alleges, people were duped into sharing sensitive information with what they thought were toll collectors, the U.S. Postal

Service and even Google itself.

[16:10:14]

Anna Cooban has been following this story for us. And can you just let us know what exactly is Google alleging here in the suit?

ANNA COOBAN, CNN BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS REPORTER: Well, Google is really calling out what it says are a China-based group of hackers that have

created a software called Lighthouse that they then sell as a service to cyber criminals. And the way that this work, they've really sketched it

out, is that a cybercriminal would go on a messaging app like Telegram. They would then sign up to Lighthouse, pay a monthly subscription fee. It

sort of worked in this way.

And then they would be, you know, have available to them a range of fake websites impersonating websites like Gmail, Google, the U.S. Postal

Service, and then they would send out loads of text messages, SMS messages to people all around the world, encouraging them to click on the link to

this fake website, then put in their e-mail credentials, their bank credentials. It was a mass scheme.

And I want to highlight one quote from the lawsuit. Google says that defendants created lighthouse to serve as a phishing for dummies kit for

cyber criminals who could not otherwise execute a large scale phishing campaign. Google says that this is a unique lawsuit in that it is really

coming after this phishing as a service type of operation.

NEWTON: Anna, you know, is this wondering what Google expects to get out of this at the end of the day, this actual lawsuit? Because it may be hard to

enforce outside of the borders of the United States or Europe.

COOBAN: Absolutely. It is suing for damages. It hasn't named the defendants specifically, the 25 of them in this case. So it is unclear as to what

material gain they'll get from this. But I suppose this is also raising the issue of these type of mass scale phishing campaigns. And Google has said

that, you know, over a million people have been impacted by this worldwide. This particular Lighthouse software and that over 120 countries, people

that were spread out across over 120 countries.

In the United States alone, up to 115 million people's credit card credentials were compromised. And so Google is, you know, with this

lawsuit, wants redress. It is suing for racketeering, for copyright infringement, for trademark infringement. Many of these fake websites had

Google's logo on them. So they do want damages. But this is also really highlighting the scale of this type of mass operation.

NEWTON: The scale, and hopefully if any of these allegations prove true, that it will be preventative as well. Anna Cooban, grateful to you.

Appreciate it.

Now, coming up for us, the maker of a self-driving truck is ready to take the company public. We speak to the CEO of Einride about its vision for

autonomous electric shipping and logistics. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:15:26]

NEWTON: Autonomous trucking company, Einride has agreed to go public through a merger. The deal values the business at $1.8 billion. Now, the

Swedish firm has a fleet of about 200 heavy duty electric vehicles. It is looking to automate shipping and logistics to respond to a higher demand

for fast deliveries.

Roozbeh Charli is the CEO of Einride, and he joins us now and before, you know, we kind of get to what this deal is all about, can you just explain

for our viewers the concept behind your company and how you hope to grow it in the coming years?

ROOZBEH CHARLI, CEO, EINRIDE: Absolutely.

And thanks for having me. So Einride is at the core, a technology company that helps our customers who are some of the world's largest shippers like

GE Appliances, Heineken and Carlsberg and others and transition their road logistics into electric and autonomous. And we do that through our A.I.

powered platform, our electric capacity and our autonomous vehicles.

So we've essentially developed an autonomous truck that can be fitted into our autonomous vehicles and deliver services to our to our shipper

customers.

NEWTON: Now, Mr. Charli, I do apologize. We do have to go to what is going on, on Capitol Hill now live as they are speaking from the floor. We are

going to take this live.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPRESENTATIVE-ELECT ADELITA GRIJALVA (D-AZ): They, along with my amazing husband, Sol and my wonderful mama, Ramona, are here with me today.

(Speaking in foreign language.)

And thank you to La Gente of Southern Arizona for making history electing me, the first Latina, the first Chicana from Arizona to ever go to

Congress.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(Speaking in foreign language.)

And while we celebrate this moment today, our American promise is under serious threat. Basic freedoms are under attack. Health care premiums are

skyrocketing, babies are being ripped away from their parents by masked agents. We can and must do better.

What is most concerning is not what this administration has done, but what the majority in this body has failed to do, hold Trump accountable as a co-

equal branch of government that we are.

It has been 50 days since the people of Arizona's seventh congressional district elected me to represent them, 50 days that over 800,000 Arizonans

have been left without access to the basic services that every constituent deserves.

This is an abuse of power. One individual should not be able to unilaterally obstruct the swearing in of a duly elected member of Congress

for political reasons.

Our democracy only works when everyone has a voice. This includes the millions of people across the country who have experienced violence and

exploitation, including Liz Stein and Jessica Michaels, both survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse. They are here in the gallery with us this evening.

Thank you for being here. Thank you.

[16:20:00]

Just this morning, House Democrats released more e-mails showing that Trump knew more about Epstein's abuses than he previously acknowledged. It is

past time for Congress to restore its role as a check and balance on this administration, and fight for we, the American people.

We need to fight for our immigrant communities and veterans. We need to stand up for our public schools, children and educators. We need to respect

tribal sovereignty and our environment. We need to stand up for LGBTQ+ rights, because that's what the American people expect us to do, fight for

them.

That is why I will sign the Discharge Petition right now to release the Epstein files. Justice cannot wait another day.

(Speaking in foreign language.)

Thank you very much. I yield back.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

NEWTON: And you were just listening to the latest and newest representative from Arizona. She had claimed, in fact, that this was an abuse of power.

The fact that it took 50 days for her to be sworn in. Arlette Saenz picks up the story from there.

I mean, this is really material, isn't it, Arlette, in terms of what happens next with those Epstein files?

SAENZ: Yes, Paula, this really will now set in motion the potential to release these Epstein files. Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva said that she

will now sign that Discharge Petition, which will force a vote on the House floor to release the full files relating to Jeffrey Epstein. This is

something that The White House has fought very hard against in recent months.

There had been a growing consensus among Democrats, and then there are four Republicans who are also on board with that plan, which is what could force

this to come to a vote on the House floor. The initiative is led by Thomas Massie, a Republican from Kentucky, and Ro Khanna, a Democrat from

California.

There are also three Republican women who have signed on to this Discharge Petition. That is Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert and Nancy Mace.

But in recent day, in the past 24 hours, really, President Trump has gotten involved in phoning Lauren Boebert to try to talk to her about this

Discharge Petition. But so far, those four Republican signers haven't showed that they are straying from this plan to try to force a vote on the

House floor relating to the Epstein files.

So now that Grijalva will be the 218th signature needed on this Discharge Petition, this will really set in motion a procedural chain of events which

will eventually lead to a vote on the House floor, the earliest that a vote could happen would be that first week of December, but we are still waiting

to hear exactly how this will play out. As behind the scenes, The White House has been quite eager to delay a type of vote on this matter.

But Grijalva, in her speech, also talked about the fact that she was not sworn in for 50 days after her election to Congress. Both Grijalva and her

Democratic colleagues have expressed a lot of frustration with how House Speaker Mike Johnson handled this issue. He delayed her swearing in, as he

has said that the House was out of session during the shutdown, and so we will see what else kind of develops on that front.

But certainly her signing on to this discharge petition will be a big development, as some lawmakers are eager to force the release of these

Epstein files.

NEWTON: Yes, but as you point out, a vote now delayed at least probably until the first week of December. Arlette Saenz for us. Thanks for the

update. Appreciate it.

We are now back to Mr. Charli, who is the CEO of Einride. And my apologies to you as we got through some breaking news. So we left it off, you know,

kind of describing where you wanted these electric autonomous trucks to go. But I do want to go to this new deal that you have now to go public. I

mean, why do this blank check or SPAC mechanism to go public? Because as far as I know, there is plenty of venture capital money out there these

days. Why go public at all?

CHARLI: No, it is good a question, you know, and I think we are at an inflection point as a business, having spent the last five or six years

really sort of digging into and building up a customer base across the sort of seven countries that we are active in and really digging into those

customers' transportation networks, starting the scaling journey together with them, accumulating the sort of $65 million of A.I. contracts that

another sort of $800 million in sort of potential in our scaling plans together with them.

[16:25:10]

So from a company perspective, we are at that inflection point where it is about adding resources into the company to really start scaling together

with those customers. Additionally, you know, looking at the sort of market environment in which we operate and the sort of specifically on the

autonomous side, you know, with the sort of, you know, the regulatory frameworks and regulators leaning inwards into adoption of autonomous

driven to a large extent in the U.S. but also spilling over into European context.

And those things combined and together with, you know, partnering with the established SPAC partner doing, you know, their eight or nine SPACs that

have helped companies like us go through this journey before made it all sort of a good opportunity for us to take that step to really be able to

continue investing into the business and scaling together with these -- with our customers.

NEWTON: Understood. Now, in terms of scaling up, though, we were just looking at some pictures of your vehicle. It is intriguing. But you know,

you know as well as I do, there is skepticism if not for electric cars themselves. Right. But the autonomous nature of what you're trying to

provide here.

You know, we've heard for years that the truck driver is a disappearing profession, and yet it doesn't seem so, at least not so far. What's your

company's take and how will you add to what many believe is the next innovation in transportation?

CHARLI: No, absolutely. So, you know, I think we've taken a sort of a ship- centric approach to looking at the largest transport buys in the world and trying to become their transportation partner in this, and how can we

provide our autonomous technology to them in order to take down their freight costs over time?

And by doing that, you start off, you know, looking at their transportation data and really understanding that, and based on that, doing a gradual

scaling plan together with them to adopt autonomous gradually into their network.

So the adoption of autonomous is not going to be, you know, switched on and off, type of technology. It is going to be a gradual scaling together with

these customers and that's the journey that we sort of started together with them and we will see that I would say increasing significantly over

the next few years as adoption rates increase and more and more part of the networks become optimized together with us.

NEWTON: As I said, we are looking at the pictures. It is intriguing. And, your company, along with the entire sector, we will see how it develops in

the coming years.

Mr. Charli, I apologize again for the interruption, but thanks for being with us.

CHARLI: Not at all. Not at all.

NEWTON: And we will be right back with more news in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:30:49]

NEWTON: All right. We want to give you more on what is a busy day on Capitol Hill as lawmakers react to the release of private e-mails by

Jeffrey Epstein mentioning Donald Trump multiple times.

Now, there's also an expected vote in the House, of course, to end the longest government shutdown in U.S. history. It's been 43 days since

Democrats and Republicans allowed funding to lapse.

CNN's Manu Raju spoke to Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez about the compromise reached by some members of her own party. She said

it's more to blame than just -- there's more to blame than just Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): There was no one vote that ended this shutdown. We are talking about a coordinated effort of eight senators with

the knowledge of Leader Schumer voting to break with the entire Democratic Party in exchange for nothing. And now people's health care costs are going

to be skyrocketing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEWTON: Democratic Representative Raja Krishnamoorthi joins us now.

You are from Illinois. I believe you just signed the discharge petition, right, which will now force a vote. So I want to ask you, in terms of

shedding more light on this Epstein affair, what will this vote do? And what do you believe the Justice Department and the Trump administration

haven't done at this point?

REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL): Well, what they have not done is turn over all the Epstein files. They've turned a fraction of the files over to

Congress under a subpoena, a bipartisan subpoena that was put to them. But a lot of those documents they've turned over are already in the public

domain. So it wasn't -- it didn't really shed a whole lot of light.

The hope is that this discharge petition, which will now have 218 signatures on it, will force a vote on legislation that will compel the

White House to produce the rest of the documents. And, you know, quite frankly, we need to get the rest of the documents for at least two reasons.

One, to do justice to the survivors, the thousand plus victims of the child sex trafficking ring led by Epstein, and two, to prevent this from ever

happening again.

The fact that we are sitting here 20 years later after the abuses were committed is a real shame. And it's a stain on our justice system right

now. And we got to prevent this from ever happening again.

NEWTON: Now, with you on Capitol Hill, there are some survivors who are looking at all of this and wondering when that full disclosure will happen.

I should say that Karoline Leavitt, the White House press secretary, just said moments ago that the Trump administration is being fully cooperative

and transparent. And I am wondering now what more did we learn from these - - from what committee released, a committee I believe that you sit on, because, again, the White House stresses that there's nothing in these e-

mails they say that suggests that the president did anything wrong. In fact, far from it, they say.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, I think that the production from the Jeffrey Epstein estate is illuminating. It's disturbing. One of the e-mails says that Trump

knew about the girls. This is an e-mail from Jeffrey Epstein. Another e- mail says that Trump spent hours with one of the victims in Jeffrey Epstein's house. A third e-mail talks about how, you know, basically,

Jeffrey Epstein has leverage, or potentially has leverage with regard to Donald Trump because Donald Trump had been on his plane.

The Lolita Express had been on in his house where all these horrors took place. And Donald Trump, of course, has denied all these things to the rest

of the world. So, for that reason and others, we need the full production of the Epstein files again.

NEWTON: Now, Congressman, I do want to point out that Virginia Giuffre herself has said that she does not -- she did not see the president do

anything wrong when she was at Mar-a-Lago. And this suggestion of the girls could in fact be innocent, meaning there were young women lawfully employed

at Mar-a-Lago that, you know, Epstein might have been talking about there. That doesn't necessarily imply any guilt.

[16:35:02]

So I ask you again, what are you looking for from the Justice Department itself? Because they continually say everything has already been released,

that needs to be released.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, that's completely false. Look, if there's nothing to hide, then produce the rest of the files. That's all they have to do. It'll

take them a day and just produce them. And then let sunshine come in and basically allow the public to see what's in those files, along with

Congress being able to continue its investigation.

NEWTON: And in fact --

KRISHNAMOORTHI: That is not happening.

NEWTON: And in fact --

KRISHNAMOORTHI: And there's a reason.

NEWTON: And in fact, as you say, the survivors themselves, that is what they want and what they've been calling for for years now.

I do want to go to the topic of the shutdown and the lingering fallout over this, because the division in your party is clear. We just heard from your

colleague Ocasio-Cortez, and she put it plainly, right? She blames the dissenters, in the Senate, and she blames Chuck Schumer. So what do you

think will happen here with your party? Because it's not a good look at this point in time. I'm assuming you do not back the compromise in the

Senate here.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: No, I don't. And I'll be voting no today. And it's going to be a very close vote. So I hope that your viewers actually ask Democrats

who might represent them to vote no. But also, there's a number of Republicans, a handful of Republicans who might flip. All that being said,

the issue that's staring us in the face tonight is that millions of Americans, tens of millions, maybe more than 20 million Americans, are

going to be seeing their health insurance premiums skyrocketing in the holiday season as we approach the end of the year, when the tax credits

under the ACA expire.

These tax credits are vital because if they expire, not only will people's health insurance premiums explode, but four million Americans are expected

to lose their health insurance altogether. And that's on top of the 17 million who are going to lose their health insurance under what Trump calls

the big beautiful bill. And I call the large lousy law. So we're seeing a catastrophe befall our health care system.

NEWTON: OK. We will wait in the coming hours to see what happens with that vote. I thank you, in the meantime, for your time on what has been a

really, a few hours now of late breaking developments. Appreciate it.

Now, the A.I. startup Anthropic says it will spend $50 billion to build data centers in the U.S. beginning in Texas and New York. The company is

adding infrastructure as consumers use its chatbots for everything from vacation plans to getting medical advice. But some experts are warning

about the effects of artificial intelligence on how people actually socialize. Chatbots, we have to remind you, do not interact the same way as

humans.

Our next guest says A.I. will never disagree with you, some people might actually like that, and that it could prevent users especially children

from learning how to fail.

Joining me now is Dr. Nina Vasan. She is founder and director of Brainstorm, the Stanford Lab for Mental Health Innovation. She's also a

psychiatry professor at Stanford University's Medical School.

And I welcome you to the program. We've been dying to talk to you all day, and I want to make clear, you do believe that A.I. can be transformative in

terms of a tool for mental health. But I do want to get first to the downside. You know, chatbots, that's what we call them in 2025. It

describes this burrowing into what I would call a digital abyss, quite frankly. But I think the name is missing something because it's kind of

like, as you point out, that imaginary friend. Right? That you had when you're five. But that imaginary friend that you can't control.

And you're a psychiatrist, a prolific researcher. What have you learned about what these chatbots are doing?

DR. NINA VASAN, FOUNDER, BRAINSTORM, THE STANDFORD LAB FOR MENTAL HEALTH INNOVATION: First of all, thank you very much for having me. And you're

absolutely right. What I want to start with is that the scale of this. 75 percent of U.S. teenagers, according to research from Common Sense Media,

have used an A.I. companion, an A.I. companion chatbot. And so not only is this a tremendous number of people, but some even say that they enjoy

talking to the chatbot. They find it just as satisfying or more satisfying than talking to real friends.

So just like you said, for some kids who don't have support systems, this can be enormous. This can be a lifeline and something that's incredibly

positive. But for kids who actually already have a support system and they're turning to the chatbots first before going to humans, that's where

the concern grows. So overall, what we're seeing is that as a generation, kids are socializing less in person. And research shows that they are not

hitting social and emotional milestones compared to previous generations. That's what we're really concerned about.

[16:40:06]

NEWTON: And in terms of that actually rewiring, especially in young children, you're a leading mental health researcher. What do you believe

the danger is in that?

VASAN: Yes, the danger is that chatbots are filling roles that were once held by friends and family. It's becoming someone to talk to and vent to,

or really feel seen by. And again, that has pros and cons, but the concern is that kids are practicing social skills in a consequence free zone. And

as we know, real friendships require discomfort and reading cues and even rejection. And that's actually how we grow as human beings. That's how we

learn how to relate, and that's how we even learn how to understand ourselves better.

Now, in terms of what we're seeing, research -- early research is mixed. Short term, what we're seeing from studies is that in the short term,

loneliness levels can drop. But in the long term, loneliness actually rises. And overall, what we're really seeing is that we need a lot more

research and a lot more data to understand who benefits, who's at risk, and how we can use these tools to keep kids healthy.

NEWTON: Yes. That's incredible what you say in terms of so far that the research shows that in the long term, you actually end up with

unfortunately more loneliness.

I do want to get to the good stuff, though, because you do believe that A.I. can really improve mental health in a revolutionary way. I've only got

about a minute left, but how so?

VASAN: Yes. Yes. How so? Well, I want to give an example. And actually this is a -- there's a company called Slingshot that has an A.I. chatbot called

Ash, which was actually trained on therapy transcripts instead of the internet. And they actually just released research this morning showing

that people who used their chatbot not only felt less lonely, their depression and anxiety scores went down. But where the real kicker of this

research is that people who used it their offline world got better.

They made more friends, and they went to more social activities in their offline world. And we haven't seen that yet in any of these chatbots. And

so that's exactly what we want to see is that you use chatbots to make your offline world better.

NEWTON: Right. So even that's getting better.

Dr. Nina Vasan, we're going to have you back. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your research and your insights.

And that is QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. I'm Paula Newton. Up next, "MARKETPLACE ASIA."

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