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Quest Means Business

Russia's War on Ukraine; Stoltenberg: First Step to Ending Conflict is a Ceasefire; U.S. Admiral Under Scrutiny for Boat Strikes Briefs Lawmakers; Slovenia Boycotts Song Contest Over Israel's Participation; Norwegian Investor Wants Lower Taxes in Norway; Norway's Dairy Industry Grapples with U.S. Tariff. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired December 04, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:18]

RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": Closing bell ringing on Wall Street tonight and we are in Oslo, where we have a snowy

mix of, well, more -- less snow and more rain and more unpleasantness. The market is betwixt and between. It bounced along throughout the course of

the day. The gavel is being hit because as time as things come to -- trading comes to an end, they're also going to light the Christmas tree.

It is a special edition of QUEST MEANS BUSINESS tonight, because those are the markets and these are the main events we are talking about.

President Putin is in India, where he is trying to sell Russian energy and fighter jets.

Jens Stoltenberg, the Norwegian Finance Minister and former NATO chief is on the program tonight. He's going to talk about the challenges of managing

the country's $2 trillion Sovereign Wealth Fund and cheese, glorious cheese. Norway exports thousands of tons of Jarlsberg every year. The chief

executive of the largest dairy group joins me to talk tariffs and more.

Tonight, we are live in Oslo on Thursday. It is December the 4th. I am Richard Quest and in Oslo, as elsewhere, I mean business.

Good evening, tonight. Good evening from the Norwegian capital, where it is about three degrees Celsius, I think. It is cold, but more importantly, it

is wet and it has just turned 10:00 P.M.

Now, the sun set here long ago at 3:17, to be exact. Thankfully, we do have a sparkling lineup of guests to get us through this dark December night.

We have Norway's Finance Minister, the former NATO chief, Jens Stoltenberg, who will join me. I will be sampling cheese with the CEO and discussing

Norway's high taxes with the investor at Le Ballinstadt and you learn how to say those names with a certain amount of gusto and energy.

We begin, though, with Russian President Vladimir Putin, who is digging in against the West.

President Putin is on a state visit to India and is vowing to keep fighting in Ukraine. He said the war will only end when Ukraine's eastern

territories have been freed. President Putin also accused the West of an economic double standard.

He asked why the U.S. is pressuring India to stop buying Russian oil, while Russian uranium helps power U.S. nuclear plants.

Paula Newton is in New York, joins me now. I mean, the answer to the question is convenience and expediency. You need the nuclear. You don't

need the oil, but he has got a point.

PAULA NEWTON, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST AND CORRESPONDENT: He has got a point, although the United States has said that they are likely to phase that out

by 2028, but putting that aside, there is a lot going on here in India at this hour, Richard and I want to remind everyone that the relationship

between India and Russia is a robust one that has gone on for decades.

And when you see these two men and the personal relationship that they have, you get an idea that this is not ending any time soon. I mean, look

at that hug. It might as well have been a bear hug. And while they were giving each other a hug, I won't be vulgar here, but they were certainly

giving signals to the European countries as well as the United States. The fact that that relationship that you see there will continue and I point

everyone in the direction of an interview that India today did, because we learned a lot from this interview, not just about India, but let me get to

that point first.

In terms of Russia continuing to sell oil to India, I mean, the new U.S. sanctions really seem to be biting here. Richard, Emmanuel Macron said that

these sanctions would be a game changer. In terms of coming back on that. Putin says this remains unaffected by current conditions, fleeting

political swings, or indeed the tragic events in Ukraine.

And he says that that energy relationship will continue, but I do also want to remind you, Richard, that these are two leaders right now looking at

this relationship and taking it beyond this conflict in Ukraine, really trying to build something again, India buying not just oil, but really it

is the defense equipment that it buys from Russia that it needs.

[16:05:07]

QUEST: But the depth of which that relationship is evolving, along with, say, China and we've seen the summits that Putin has had, it is not

surprising that the E.U. is turning around and saying a version of. It is one thing, not necessarily to support us, but it is no need -- you don't

need to actually work actively against us.

NEWTON: No. And it is a tightrope here that India is walking, and everyone concedes that. But if Modi didn't think he could pull this off, he

certainly wouldn't have the photo opportunities that you see there, and Vladimir Putin would not have given this exclusive interview a lengthy one,

I might add to this Indian media outlet, and I have to say, given the comments coming out from Vladimir Putin in this interview, Richard, it has

been many years since I have interviewed him, but this is a Vladimir Putin I recognize.

This is someone who is in a good mood, quite confident, and sees that he is able to get what he wants out of Ukraine. He did talk a little bit about

the peace deal, Richard, I do have to tell you before I let you go and he says that he does believe that what the U.S. presented to him was new, that

they had to take it each piece, point by point, but said that they were ready to engage in shuttle diplomacy.

And here is the important bit, that he believes that what will come out of this is economic cooperation with the United States and American companies,

not just a ceasefire or a peace deal with Ukraine. So you're getting an idea of what the prize is for Vladimir Putin, the one he is concentrated on

anyway.

QUEST: I am grateful. Thank you, Paula, in New York. I appreciate you. Thank you.

Now, tensions between Russia and Ukraine are defined pretty much a large part of Jens Stoltenberg's time and career as he served as NATO Secretary

General. If you ask anybody in this country, Jens Stoltenberg, well, somewhere between myth, god, and man, as told in his book on my watch

leading NATO in a time of war.

Now Mr. Stoltenberg has come back to Norway for a second term as Norway's Finance Minister in the 90s, when he lasted it, his determination to end

the conflict remains as strong as ever.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JENS STOLTENBERG, FORMER NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL: I welcome that the U.S. is now taking the leadership of a dialogue process that hopefully can bring us

to some lasting and just settlement to this conflict.

QUEST: Every time we look at this and you've looked at it more than anybody, it always comes down to the same two or three facts.

Land on the East, troops in the country, whether it is European force or otherwise, and membership of NATO. These are red lines on one side. The

opposite is a red line on the other side. How do you square that circle?

STOLTENBERG: The only way to square that circle is to start by agreeing a ceasefire and Ukraine has actually indicated that they will agree with

ceasefire along the current frontline. It is not for me to decide, but if they accept it, I think that will be the first step towards end to the

conflict.

Then based on that negotiations, it should start in good faith to find a lasting solution, and of course, what Ukraine needs is that if they see any

favor, they need at least security, that it stops here, because we have had agreements with Russia before in 1994, when Russia -- when Ukraine gave up

their nuclear weapons, and also the Minsk agreements and Russia has violated these agreements again and again.

So if there is a new agreement now, there has to be some guarantees that it stops there and that means enabling Ukrainians, at least to defend

themselves.

QUEST: Yes, but you see, the problem is, I mean, there is this argument, of course, that Ukraine and NATO provoked the expansion of NATO further east.

Youve heard this a million times that Putin had always wanted an excuse to do it, and you gave him one.

STOLTENBERG: But I will never accept another big power like Russia can decide what sovereign, independent neighbors can do or not do. It is part

of being a sovereign nation that they can decide your own security arrangements that is enshrined in treaties that also Russia has signed.

And me coming from Norway back in 1949 when NATO was established, Norway was the only country bordering Russia and Russia said that was a

provocation and that Norway joined NATO.

I am very happy that London, Washington, Paris said, no, it is for Norway to decide and not to fight against Russia that Norway joined NATO in 1949.

QUEST: So now to your book, which is -- there is a very interesting aspect where you talk about having to tell Zelenskyy that he is not getting air

support, that you're not going to do it. And the reason is you don't want to make it worse. I mean, it is as nakedly obvious and blunt as that, and

that's the dilemma for NATO in all of this, isn't it?

[16:10:10]

That is the problem that you can't escape or NATO can't escape. How far can you go to support Ukraine without ending up in a war yourself?

STOLTENBERG: Well, the dilemma has been there since the beginning, because in the morning --

QUEST: It is getting worse.

STOLTENBERG: Maybe, but the thing is that in the morning of the invasion, NATO made two decisions on the 24th of February, 2022. The first decision

was to step up the mutual support for Ukraine, as we did, but the second decision was to prevent the war between Russia and Ukraine to escalate into

full scale war between Russia and NATO.

And of course, there is a contradiction there and I am trying to be honest about that and that contradiction was pinpointed when, Zelenskyy asked for

Norway and for NATO to close the airspace of Ukraine and I told him we cannot do it because then NATO will be involved in a military conflict with

Russia.

What we can do is that we can continue to provide equipment, missiles, ammunition, advanced weapons systems to Ukraine and financial support and

sanctions against Russia and that will pay, and also make sure that Russia pays a high price for their aggression against Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: You saw the former head of NATO, now Finance Minister, and who has managed to just get the budget passed as well here in Oslo. We will talk

more about that.

Now in Washington, the naval officer, The White House says, ordered the controversial second strike on the suspected drug boat has just finished

briefing lawmakers. He is Admiral Frank Mitch Bradley, and he said there was no kill them all order from the Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth,

regarding the September the 2nd incident. That's all according to lawmakers who were briefed at the meeting.

The Pentagon is arguing that survivors of the first attack were still in the fight and appeared to be racing for help when Bradley gave the order to

strike again. Democratic Congressman Jim Himes has called the video of the incident troubling.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): What I saw in that room was one of the most troubling things I've seen in my time in public service.

You have two individuals in clear distress without any means of, locomotion with a destroyed vessel, who are killed by the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Manu Raju is with me from Washington. There seems to be, Manu, a sort of an undertone here. Something smelly and unpleasant went on, but

nobody is quite sure what and certainly nobody is sure where the blame is going to lie.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Richard, I would say that the reaction out of the room has really been along party lines as

much as most things are here in Washington, particularly in this era of politics, that the briefings that have occurred from early this morning up

until now, actually is still going on at this moment, that Democrats have come out raising major alarms, like you heard from Jim Himes, the top

Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, were warning about what he saw, as he called one of the most troubling things he has seen in his time

serving in Congress.

But then there are some who, like Senator Tom Cotton, who chairs the Senate Intelligence Committee, came out and said that the administration and that

the military was absolutely justified in his views to carry out what he calls righteous strikes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AR): The first strike, the second strike and the third and the fourth strike on September 2nd were entirely lawful and needful and

they were exactly what we would expect our military commanders to do.

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): In a second strike, they were killed and in a third and fourth strike, the boat was sunk. The underlying judgment that

frames this entire operation is that if there is a boat with narcotics and people who are affiliated with a narcotics trafficking organization, that

that is a legitimate target.

I've still got questions about that.

RAJU: Secretary Hegseth was responsible for this strike.

COONS: Secretary Hegseth is responsible for all of these strikes because he is responsible for the campaign and for the rules of engagement, and for

how it is being carried out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And the ultimate question is, to what extent will Secretary Hegseth be able to weather the storm caused by this controversy and a mounting set

of controversies in his tenure leading The Pentagon.

At the moment, you're seeing Democrats, of course, who have all opposed his nomination in the United States Senate, offer some of the sharpest

criticism directed towards Secretary Hegseth. Republicans, for the most part, either are defending him or steering clear of saying that they have

full confidence in him as the Secretary of Defense.

[16:15:07]

In fact, a lot of them, Richard, won't say if they have confidence in him, they'll simply say that they have confidence in the administration, not in

the Secretary himself -- Richard.

QUEST: So, Manu, where does this go?

Because I mean, as the videos are now being seen by congressmen, the facts are starting to become pretty clear. So, has this got legs to run further?

RAJU: Well, the big question is going to be whether or not they release this video that was seen behind closed doors in a classified setting,

because remember what was only released from the public was a portion of the video.

We have not seen the second strike or certainly not an unedited video, will that be released? Because that's what lawmakers saw behind closed doors.

And ultimately, you're seeing a difference in opinion, so people like the Republican Tom Cotton saying these were narcoterrorists who were shot as

they were trying to essentially carry out their drug trafficking mission and then you have Democrats saying that these were survivors, shipwrecked

survivors who were shot down in a potential violation of the rules of war.

And so, ultimately, can be the public for themselves? And only they could do that if the administration were to declassify this video and release it

to the public, but there is no indication at the moment that The White House plans to go that route -- Richard.

QUEST: Manu Raju, who's on Capitol Hill, I am grateful to you, sir. Thank you. It is a chilly, cold night here. Well, what would you expect? It is

Oslo in December.

But the one thing that is warm is in terms of the budget and the Sovereign Wealth Fund and the Norwegian government has now agreed on next year's

budget only hours and days before the buzzer, the key issue, the Sovereign Wealth Fund of investments, Norwegian Finance Minister Jens Stoltenberg, on

how he wants to change things about the key to the fund success, in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: There you have Oslo. It is three degrees Celsius. I am told this is almost tropical for December. Apparently, it should be around minus 10 to

15 at this time of the year.

[16:20:05]

But the one thing you'll notice, a distinct lack of snow at the moment. In fact, wherever we've been around Oslo in and about, people are saying there

is no snow, and what is happening there.

So here in the Norwegian capital, where you wear long underwear, gloves and hats and scarves, the nights are long and cold and I've been embracing what

they call here the "koselig," the philosophy of coziness.

So when you want to know a bit about winter in Norway, just get out your koselig.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST (voice over) As December gets underway, Norway faces the start of the long, cold and dark winter, but here they know how to find the light. They

make the most of difficult circumstances.

QUEST (on camera): They have a word in Norwegian, "koselig." It means cozy, homely. Being ready, if you will, for these long winter nights as December

gets underway.

QUEST (voice over): If the country's geography and meteorology can often be austere, it has also provided many important benefits through its vast

energy deposits.

Norway is one of Europe's biggest suppliers of energy, and the revenues from the sector make it one of the top five richest countries per capita in

the world.

All that money is carefully and very deliberately funneled into the Sovereign Wealth Fund, with a raft of rules to make sure its saved and not

spent.

NICOLAI TANGEN, CEO, NORGES BANK INVESTMENT MANAGEMENT: What you do is that you have a long term philosophy, a long term structure, a long term

mandate, and you sit through these variations and these fluctuations.

QUEST (voice over): It makes the Sovereign Wealth Fund worth around $2 trillion and leaves Norway with an economy suited to the culture.

QUEST (on camera): The fact that Norway is one of the most economically equal countries in the world didn't happen by accident. Years of government

policy and a range of direct and indirect taxes, with particular emphasis on taxing the wealthy along with high social spending, it means in this

country everybody at least seems to have a fair chance.

QUEST (voice over): The challenges, though, have mounted in recent years. It shares a border with Russia and the ongoing war in Ukraine has created a

tense security situation.

Norway says Russia has violated its airspace three times this year, a claim the Kremlin has called unfounded. On the domestic political front, the far-

right populist party surged in recent elections over rising concerns over immigration. Despite that frosty atmosphere, the government has managed to

retain power and demonstrate stability.

Norway continues to show the world that when faced with headwinds, solutions may be found to the north.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: Now the Norwegian government has just ended a fiscal standoff on Wednesday, only days before next year's budget was due. They finally

managed to cobble together a deal with four left-wing parties, came to a consensus with the ruling party.

So Norway will not gradually phase out its top oil and gas industry. Probably just as well, considering the amount of money it brings in and its

Sovereign Wealth Fund will not divest from Israeli companies.

The Norwegian Finance Minister, Jens Stoltenberg, he told me on Monday. Oil and gas, however much people may not like it, however much they may resent,

oil and gas have been key to growing the $2 trillion sovereign wealth fund.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STOLTENBERG: This is a Sovereign Wealth Fund we started to invest in late 1990s. Last time I was Minister of Finance, 30 years ago, we had zero

installment in the fund at the beginning of that year, and now we have $2 trillion, and we have been able to do that to create this fund by saving

all the oil and gas revenues, every cent, every dollar we have earned from oil and gas has been saved and the only thing we spend is the expected real

financial return.

QUEST: Are you suggesting redefining the amount that is taken from the fund?

STOLTENBERG: No. And this is what we call the golden fiscal rule, meaning that we only spend the expected real return, and that will stay in place.

It has very broad political support in Norway, meaning that since we only spend the real financial return, the value of the fund will not be touched,

it will actually remain and increase as we put more money into the fund.

[16:25:16]

And that is the long term guideline. It has worked very well. And, also the main reason why the fund is so big as it is.

QUEST: So why do you want to change the ethical aspect of it? Obviously, it is relating to issues like Gaza, where there have been much criticisms

within it. You say that the existing rule has paradoxes and contradictions that can be created because of it. What do you want to replace it with?

STOLTENBERG: We are not decided exactly what we will replace it with. We have started a review and that takes some time in Norway. We need some

experts to look into it, then we will present the white paper for the Parliament, and then we will make the final decision.

QUEST: What is wrong with it, though?

STOLTENBERG: Partly, it is we saw in Gaza that it actually took too long time to leave some of it, to divest from some of the companies. But we are

also seeing that maybe we should increase the threshold to divest from other companies.

So the paradox is that sometimes, actually we are invested in companies we should not be invested in, and other times I think we actually too quickly

leave or sell out our shares in other companies.

QUEST: So here we go. Oh there magic -- what can we find over here?

STOLTENBERG: That's me. The first -- the last time I was Minister of Finance back in 1996.

QUEST: Now you only ministered for one year?

STOLTENBERG: That's correct.

QUEST: What happened?

STOLTENBERG: We lost elections in '97. That's democracy. That's how it works.

QUEST: Yes, but you went on to become Prime Minister.

STOLTENBERG: Yes, but the Prime Minister, okay, the Prime Ministers are in the Prime Minister's office. So then after that, I became Prime Minister.

QUEST: And then you're back again in this time.

You're now in a job that you held in the 1990s, and you were one of the world's top diplomats as head of NATO. Why would you come back to domestic

politics?

STOLTENBERG: Because I was asked by the Prime Minister, who is a close friend, but also served as my chief-of-staff and also Foreign Minister to

serve again, and to serve Norway to be a public servant to work with the Norwegian economy, to be back and be responsible for the sovereign wealth

fund where I actually also worked very heavily on this fund back in the 1990s, it is a privilege.

QUEST: Why come back into domestic politics with all the grubbiness that that is involved? Having left NATO on such a high note.

STOLTENBERG: Because it is important to try to not only talk about the world and analyze the world, but actually do something and being a

politician is a huge privilege because you are able to change the world and I am now playing a role in Norwegian politics and there are disagreements,

there are criticism. It is never easy, but I am part of decision making, and that's actually important.

QUEST: I guess if your wife was here, she would say, no, the reason is he can't stop.

STOLTENBERG: No, my wife is right, of course, I am afraid of becoming bored when I don't -- if I step down. But at some stage I have to do that and I

am gradually preparing and it will happen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: That's the Finance Minister Jens Stoltenberg, and I think the big talking point. Look, you don't really have to ask too many people and

everybody wonders what he is going to do next. I mean, he has been Prime Minister before, but everybody thinks what will be the next job? Well,

needless to say, he wasn't telling me anything like that.

As QUEST MEANS BUSINESS from Oslo continues, Slovenia is amongst the countries that are boycotting next year's Eurovision song contest, after

the break, I will be speaking to Natalia Gorscak, the head of Slovenia's public broadcaster about why they made that decision. There she is. We will

talk to her in just a moment.

QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:32:21]

QUEST: Hello, I'm Richard Quest. There's a lot more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS from Norway.

In just a moment, I'll be speaking to the head of Slovenia's national broadcaster about boycotting Eurovision over Israel's participation. And

I'll try a Norwegian delicacy with the CEO of Tang, one of the country's largest food producers. But we'll only get to the food and enjoying all of

that after the headlines, because this is CNN and on this network, the news always comes first.

The naval officer the White House says gave the order for the second strike on a suspected drug boat has been defending that decision. Admiral Frank

Bradley briefed members of Congress today. One House Democrat called video of that follow-up strike one of the most troubling things that I've seen,

while his Republican counterpart says he is now convinced the strike was justified.

The president of Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of Congo have signed a new peace agreement. The ceremony took place in Washington and was hosted

by President Trump. The U.S. brokered agreement aims to end decades of conflict in Eastern Congo. It was a deal that was signed in June that

failed to curb the fighting.

At least four countries will boycott the world's largest music competition after organizers decided to allow Israel to compete. It's Spain, Ireland,

Slovenia and Netherland all say they will not take part in next year's Eurovision contest in protest against Israel's actions in Gaza. Israel

slammed the boycott as being a disgrace.

Slovenia's national broadcaster says taking part in next year's Eurovision contest would conflict with its values, including peace, equality and

respect. Now it says that there are also concerns from other European broadcasters over issues of neutrality and independence, making

participation incompatible with their duty to the public.

I'm joined now by Natalija Gorscak, who's president of RTV Slovenia, the public broadcaster.

Thank you for joining me. And the decision to withdraw, it's a -- if the fighting was continuing arguably it would be more understandable.

[16:35:09]

But there has been a ceasefire. So essentially you are just objecting to Israel's participation per se.

NATALIJA GORSCAK, PRESIDENT, RTV SLO: Well, we know that, you know, this peace agreement is not a real peace agreement because people are still

dying and while journalists are not allowed to enter Gaza. So I don't know which kind of peace agreement this is. OK, they are not killing so many

people at the time like it was before but, still, you know, this is not a real peace. And until, you know, our colleagues, journalists, can't enter

Gaza, how can we support, you know, Israel and the Eurovision?

QUEST: If Eurovision itself has agreed to allow Israel's participation, so at the organizational level, they're OK with it, it seems unusual that you

would take such a decision.

GORSCAK: Why is it unusual? You know, in the case of Russia, you know, after a week of the aggression, it was kicked out, you know, while Israel

has been killing people for two years and everybody tolerated that. Now we have a little -- a little bit of ceasefire, but -- and now we will open the

doors and act like nothing happened. How human we are. You know, how -- which values do we have and which rules do we respect when we have one

rules for one member and another rule for another member?

QUEST: Well, that's not strictly the case, ma'am, because, as you said, you just said then, Russia was kicked out. You're going for a boycott. But

really, the argument against boycott is the slippery slope argument, isn't it? Once you start going down this road, where does one drop or where does

one end this? There's always somebody that somebody will protest about. And I guess this goes against the whole principle of sport, music, these sort

of things, should be above politics.

GORSCAK: But, you know, into Eurovision politics entered in 2017, when the political song won. And after that there was a lot of politics inside. And

we don't want politics inside. And already last year, when Israel was coming to the Eurovision, when we also were there, although our audience

were already protesting, when they had political song basically political act. And then organized voting. What can we expect from them?

This is the one thing. And the other thing is, if, you know, Israel would care so much about the Eurovision, then they will just pull out this year,

wait, you know, for everything to settle down and come again next year. And there would be no disputes and we will all be enjoying united by music.

QUEST: Do you fear this is -- well, are you hoping other countries are going to join with you on this now? I mean, there's four and including some

obviously major countries as well. Are you hoping that others are going to come along as well?

GORSCAK: No, it's our decision. You know, it's up to them to decide what they will do. I think everybody, every broadcaster, has to respect its own

audience. And if their audience wants it, then they should respect it. We won't say, you know, go for it to anybody because we think it's not

correct. Everybody has his own decision and it needs to be made by the values of his own broadcaster and by the echo of its audience.

QUEST: Ma'am, I'm grateful you joined us tonight. The decision has been taken. And good to have you on QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. Thank you for joining

us.

Now it is, we are in Oslo. It is unbelievably wet, but it's not cold. Well, not by Norwegian standards. In fact, they're all walking around here

wondering what the complaining is all about. In just a moment, though, you're going to hear a conversation with a top Norwegian investor and

entrepreneur. He says the country is losing its talent because of its high tax burden. In a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:42:50]

QUEST: They certainly know how to make the most of Christmas lights even without any snow. Everything twinkles in some shape or form. That's looking

over towards the palace in that direction and towards downtown.

Now Norway, by the way, if you're wondering where we are, the Sommerro Hotel. It's the top of the Sommerro Hotel, which is where the program comes

from tonight, with spectacular views. Except, you know, one of these funny little things, that bit of tip, this building behind was beautifully lit

up, magnificently lit up, until just before we went on air. And then suddenly, all the lights went out.

Well, I suppose they were saving electricity bill. Because Norway, like many Scandi countries, is well known for its robust and broad social safety

net. It's expensive, though, and it comes at a high cost of taxes. Norway's tax to GDP ratio 42.2 percent in 2021. Compare that, half of that, 24.5 in

the United States.

Now, the real problem is, at one level everybody agrees you need high taxes to have good services. But I sat down with the glass maker and investor

Atle Brynestad, who says that tax burden now is driving out the entrepreneurs, the young people that Norway needs for its future.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ATLE BRYNESTAD, NORWEGIAN INVESTOR: In general, Norway has a very healthy economic situation. You know, Norway as a country is very, very rich. I

would say that people that are entrepreneurs, there should have better conditions in Norway because too many Norwegians are no going out of the

country. And we hear about maybe rich people going to Switzerland and other countries, but we don't see or not hear about today is young people that

are moving out of the country because the tax challenges in Norway is heavily.

So I would like the government to really change this so that instead of people going out of Norway, very talented, very smart people, they will

come back to Norway and also attract more talented people into Norway because competition is very tough worldwide. There's so many smart people

in the world.

[16:45:05]

QUEST: One of the biggest challenges for young people is the entrepreneurial spirit here at the moment, isn't it? And it's not just

about taxes. Do you think that Norway still has that mentality for can go, can do?

BRYNESTAD: Yes, I think so. We have a lot of smart people with a lot of energy that really want to make a future for themselves. A good education

system in Norway. We have a good health system. It's a beautiful country. I mean, it's a lovely place to live and we have so many smart, bright people

that are educated in Norway, educated in other countries.

We have to encourage them to stay here and work here definitely because Norway has so many smart people. But there's, as I said, many smart people

all over the world. And if we are not able to compete, we will be defeated. That's the case.

QUEST: It's a fascinating country because taxation is relatively high. There are a lot of -- and yet it's an extremely wealthy country.

BRYNESTAD: Yes. As a country, yes.

QUEST: And you've got oil and gas coming out your nostrils, but you have a very good sovereign wealth. It's a real contradiction.

BRYNESTAD: Yes, it is, but I think also the more jobs we create, you know, in Norway by younger people staying here and use their education to create

wealth, it will be more wealth for Norway in the long term. And this is so important.

QUEST: Final question, what's your favorite company? You've got loads of them. Which is your favorite?

BRYNESTAD: Hard to choose. That's how long?

QUEST: So we've got -- we've the glass company and we've got the yacht company.

BRYNESTAD: Yes, they are my passion. Equally. You know?

QUEST: Glass and yachts?

BRYNESTAD: Yes.

QUEST: They don't go together because the glass breaks on the yachts.

BRYNESTAD: Well, then we make new ones.

(LAUGHTER)

QUEST: Good for the profits.

BRYNESTAD: Because it's very different and because they're all about people. Even if it's a yacht or cruise, it's about the people. The crew,

how we treat the crew, how they like to work there. Here in the glass factory, it's about the glass workers, you know, the people. This is a

people business.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: Glass blowing and yachts and cruises.

It's late here in Oslo. And they say you shouldn't eat cheese before going to bed. But I might break the rule here. Look at this. Jarlsberg. We've got

loads of cheese. Cheese galore. We'll be joined by one of Norway's leading dairy companies. And yes, this is a full -- good grief. I had no idea it

was going to be that -- my god, that's really heavy. It's a full wheel of Jarlsberg cheese and a nice cheese and tomato sandwich. Personally enjoy

this. After the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:50:19]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNE HATHAWAY, ACTRESS: I'm not even hungry anymore.

ADRIAN GRENIER, ACTOR: What?

HATHAWAY: That is why those girls are so skinny.

GRENIER: Oh, no, no, no. Give me that. There's like $8 of Jarlsberg in there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: $8 of Jarlsberg. One of my favorite films. Never miss the opportunity for a bit of "Devil Wears Prada." And that Jarlsberg cheese, a

famous product of Norway, $8 might not by much Jarlsberg these days, especially in the U.S., where Norwegian goods have been slapped with a 15

percent tariff, although they do manufacture there as well, Jarlsberg. And that's a challenge for Norway's dairy farmers and companies like TINE, the

country's largest food maker.

It produces 15 -- I can't believe I'm saying this. 15,000 tons of Jarlsberg a year. Its biggest foreign market is the United States, where it has also

moved some of its production as well. And with me is Ann-Beth Freuchen, the chief executive of TINE.

Thank you for joining us.

ANN-BETH FREUCHEN, THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE, TINE: Thank you, Richard. I'm so excited.

QUEST: Jarlsberg. I mean, you make a lot of other different cheeses as well. But Jarlsberg, it's yours.

FREUCHEN: Jarlsberg. It's the Jarlsberg. That's what we also sell in the U.S., which is our largest international market. But yes, in Norway we have

a quite broad portfolio. And then we have this small, unique one that we're also selling quite a lot of in the U.S. as well. It's the brown cheese.

QUEST: Oh, these brown cheeses are very strange.

FREUCHEN: Yes, they are. They're quite unique.

QUEST: That's one word for it.

FREUCHEN: Yes.

QUEST: But listen, how badly have you been hit by tariffs? How difficult -- you have to live with it. Don't get me wrong. I understand you have to live

with it, but how badly is it hitting you?

FREUCHEN: I think it's fair to be said that, you know, terrorists will hit also an international brand like Jarlsberg or the TINE as a company. But I

think, you know, when you are an international company, you need to adapt to the circumstances that you operate in, in which we're doing in the U.S.

as well. And then luckily, we're also producing a significant part of our volume for the U.S. market in the U.S. on Jarlsberg.

QUEST: Which of course is exactly what the president wants people to do, to start producing in the U.S. And the market for cheese at the moment, it's

always highly competitive, highly competitive, and sometimes cheese is in and is good for you. And sometimes cheese is out. And there are all sorts

of (INAUDIBLE). Where are we at the moment in cheese?

FREUCHEN: Well, cheese is always a great snack, and whenever you like to eat it on your toast, which is fantastic. Did you try the melt? But cheese,

yes. Look, isn't it beautiful? And we say holy cheese in the U.S. when we do like this, the perfect melt, right?

FREUCHEN: That's so good. Oh, it's very rich. Wonderful.

FREUCHEN: Yes. It's beautiful. But cheese, no, I think in general you could say that the dairy sector is doing quite well in the Western world. This is

a natural food which is high on trend. And then I think it's also important to say that the protein trend, I think it's the trend of the century, and

that's really helping the dairy sector and also the cheese categories.

QUEST: As an economy, Norway is performing better than in many cases, others. But it is largely, there's a lot of oil and gas. And dairy and

agriculture, which are very important. But it's always oil and gas at the moment, isn't it? And that's an interesting time for the economy, isn't it?

FREUCHEN: Very much so. And I think, you know, the Norwegian food, which is, you know, good on taste, is representing our rich nature. It's been

selling, at least our Jarlsberg cheese is getting too little attention, I think, on the international arena.

QUEST: Why is that? Is it because it's -- well, yes, will you tell me why? I mean, is it not fashionable, all cheeses that are brie and camembert in

Paris?

FREUCHEN: Exactly.

QUEST: Exactly.

FREUCHEN: But this is just as exotic. It's coming from the northern parts of the world made by this purity. And then for the Jarlsberg cheese.

QUEST: Yes. What about it?

FREUCHEN: You have this very secret ingredient coming from Norway. I think in our company, only two people knows this recipe. It's a cheese culture.

And this cheese culture is actually the start of any Jarlsberg that makes the nice holes.

QUEST: Oh, come on, is this like the Coca-Cola secret recipe?

FREUCHEN: It is actually. And that this culture, we produce this in Norway, and whenever we produce Jarlsberg in Ireland or --

QUEST: Can I smell this?

FREUCHEN: Absolutely.

QUEST: It's not going to go --

FREUCHEN: No, it's not going to explode in your face.

QUEST: Lord. It's like old socks. Oh, no, bit of a mold. Yes, I think -- so you then take this and you --

FREUCHEN: Add this to the cheese. It starts the process to make the holes and the famous nutty taste from the Jarlsberg.

[16:55:02]

And we make this in Norway and we ship it to the Jarlsberg factory in Ohio or in Ireland, and you get the same beautiful texture, look and taste in

Jarlsberg.

QUEST: Well, thank you very much. How very kind of you. Quick question before we finish, which is completely unrelated to Jarlsberg cheese. How

often would you go and have a sauna?

FREUCHEN: I love actually saunas. And I like when it's below zero Celsius.

QUEST: Not today.

FREUCHEN: No. That's not today. But that's even more crisp.

QUEST: You're really obsessed with saunas, aren't you? Shucking off the clothes. Have a bit of cheese and going into the sauna.

FREUCHEN: It's cold here. We need to adapt to the cold whenever which part of the year we're in.

QUEST: Very much indeed for joining us.

FREUCHEN: Thank you so much for having us.

QUEST: Thank you.

Now we're just talking there about the whole thing of the sauna culture. Norway has long been famous for its sauna culture. Now the industry is

exploding in popularity overseas, and so I had to try it out for myself. I went to the sauna. You're not going to see that. And then the ice cold

plunge dip. Look at it. How long was I going to say? And I believe me, that was freezing water. You just can't hear me actually what I'm saying. But

there we go.

I stayed in longer than anybody expected that I would. And then finally, I just had to jump out because it was just simply too cold.

We will take a profit -- good god, I'm still in there. What was I thinking? Barking mad. "Profitable Moment" after the break. QUEST MEANS BUSINESS from

Oslo.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Tonight's "Profitable Moment" from Oslo. You've got to admire a city in a country and a people who are always taking their clothes off and going

into saunas and then getting into cold water. That eat loads and loads of cheese and have a sovereign wealth fund with almost more money than God.

It's just simply extraordinary being here in Oslo and in Norway.

But what I find particularly fascinating is the current contradiction that you can see in people's faces, because on the one hand, they're all

enjoying the benefits of this massive sovereign wealth fund, the 3 percent that goes into government expenditure. But at the same time, it's dirty

fossil fuels. It's the nasty bits. It's the bit that the environmentalists here are all against. How do you square that circle?

Well, you do it with lots of difficulty and lots of gnashing and wailing of teeth, but eventually they come to fruition and decide on a way forward.

Now you've got to admire this country in simply the way it's all put together. And certainly at this time of the year, when they're about to

face a very long, cold winter.

And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for this Thursday night. I'm Richard Quest in Oslo. Whatever you're up to in the hours ahead, I hope it's profitable.

I'll see you next week in Atlanta.

END