Return to Transcripts main page
Quest Means Business
Trump: No Rush on Iran Deal, "I Don't Care About the Midterms;" Warsh Set to Take Over Fed as Inflation Concerns Rise; South Korean Chipmaker SK Hynix joins $1 Trillion Club. New York, New Jersey Attorneys General Probe FIFA Over High Ticket Prices; U.N. Commission Tasked with Finding Alternatives to GDP; U.K. Spy Chief Says Russia Relentlessly Targeting Britain; U.K. Defense Chief's Jet Signal Jammed Near Russian Border; New Border Control System Causing Chaos at European Airports. Aired 4p-5p ET
Aired May 27, 2026 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:29]
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": Closing bell ringing on Wall Street. Bring trading to an end and a one and a two and a
one, two, three, four. And nice strong gavels from the lady in red, and we have not only a -- well, we've got records everywhere. We've got a record
on the Dow. We have a record on the S&P and we have a record on the NASDAQ. So strong markets across the board. We will discuss whether they are
justified, if that is not a truism in a sense.
And the markets are what they are, over the course of this program, these are the events we will also be talking about in the next hour.
President Trump says he won't rush an Iran deal even if the war hurts his party in the midterm elections, which he says he doesn't care about.
The memory chip company SK Hynix is now worth more than a trillion dollars. It is the third memory stock with that valuation this month, and sky high
ticket prices for World Cup matches. There is an investigation by in New York and New Jersey.
We, midweek are live in London. Wednesday, May the 27th. I am Richard Quest and I mean business.
Good evening.
We start tonight, President Trump says he is not ready to sign a deal with Iran and nothing, not even the midterms, will force him to cave. At the
Cabinet meeting earlier, the President said he is not satisfied with the current proposal and claimed recent Republican primaries show voters
understand what he is doing, saying, I don't care about the midterms.
The President and the Secretary of State warned they could return to military action if the current talks fall through. Secretary of State Marco
Rubio insists they want to find a solution without further violence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The President's preference, Mr. President, your preference has told us repeatedly, as always, to negotiate
these things and to figure out if you can have agreements. Diplomacy is always the first option, and we continue to work on that.
There is an agreement to be made, we want that to be made. I think there has been some progress and some interest, and we will see over the next few
hours and days whether progress could be made.
I just want to remind everybody, Mr. President, you know this well. You have other options available to you if that doesn't work. But the bottom
line is that we prefer the negotiated diplomatic route, and we are going to give it every chance to succeed. I know you're giving it every chance to
succeed, Mr. President, but here is the bottom line. I keep getting asked, what is this all about? It is very simple.
Iran and these people in charge of Iran can never have a nuclear weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Jeff Zeleny is in Washington.
Very complex political undercurrents in the last for 24 hours. But the President, this "I don't care about the midterms" on top of "I don't care
about Americans" on top of "I don't care where the price goes as long as Iran doesn't get a nuclear weapon" I am paraphrasing the others, what do
you make of it?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, I mean, President Trump is doing his best to suggest that he is not being pressured
politically here and to suggest that he is not operating under a timeline, but the reality is the world is very well aware that the midterm elections
are looming.
Iran, of course, does not have midterm elections. That is a very obvious point, and everyone knows that the U.S. has midterm elections. And the
question, are Republicans going to remain in power? So the President, you know, may be perhaps wishing that he didn't face political pressure here,
and perhaps he is not conflating that with actually the nitty-gritty of getting a deal.
But it is true that his party is facing intense political pressure. Our poll last week, Richard, showed that 75 percent of Americans say that their
finances are worse off because of the Iran War. Just drive by a gas station. It is very clear.
So even though the stock market has been really going bang-busters and largely ignoring the Iran War, that does not mean the rest of the economy
has.
So again, the President wants to make clear that he is not being -- deciding sort of every decision based on the political winds. But that is
sort of leaving out the fact that those winds are looming large and hanging over everything that he is trying to do.
But look, a big win in Texas last evening in a primary gives him a bit of a lift, if you will, but it is a temporary one, I would say.
[16:05:07]
QUEST: Now that talk about -- let's just focus or talk about that because the win in Texas shows that when you talk about primaries and his own
party, he still has a stranglehold in certain areas and it is quite a hefty one.
Of course, we won't know till the until the midterms themselves whether or not -- throw that in to the whole equation, he still can push it through.
At the moment that Texas win is really his own party telling him they still love him.
ZELENY: No doubt about it, and they do love him, of course. I mean the base of his party, he controls them and they are thrilled by whatever he says
and does.
But even though it was a landslide win, there is no doubt about it. John Cornyn, who has been in politics for more than 40 years, he has been a
stalwart of the Senate and has largely gone along with the President. He has not been a rabble rouser like some few Republicans are, but the
President decided to support Ken Paxton, who is a deeply flawed, but also a very strong MAGA candidate, if you will.
But the idea of the primary electorate, about seven percent of the Republican electorate voted in Texas on Tuesday, seven percent, entirely
different than the electorate that will turn out between now and November.
So, you know, we do not know if republicans will hold control of the Senate or the House.
One thing we do know is it will be an entirely different electorate, not just by loyalists to Trump.
QUEST: You know, I am left sort of bemused by the whole business in a sense that you've -- we know he watches the stock market and that's gangbusters,
and as you heard me start at the beginning of the program, we've got records on the three major indices. We know Americans have got an
affordability crisis. We've got the Texas result. We've got a President saying he doesn't care.
I mean, it is very -- the underclass, it is my first question to you, Jeff, the undercurrents are absolutely bewildering.
ZELENY: They certainly are. And look, history is not on the side of the President's party. Only two examples over the last century or so, where a
President's party actually maintains power in a midterm election year. So has Trump defied history before? He has. Will he on this? We will see.
QUEST: I am grateful. Thank you, sir. In Washington.
Now, The White House is pushing back on claims about the Memorandum of Understanding. The MOU, supposedly between Iran and the U.S.
Iranian state television reported that the draft calls for U.S. Forces to withdraw from the vicinity of Iran. It said the U.S. would also lift the
blockade of the Iranian ports and in exchange, Iran would restore traffic through the Strait to pre-war levels, and that will all happen within one
month.
Matthew Chance is in London.
The Americans have said no such thing. That's a load of nonsense. The truth lies where, Matthew?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I don't know, I think -- you know, I've just come back from Iran, Richard and I spoke to a
lot of Iranian officials there. And, you know, as they set out in state television, the terms of a possible Memorandum of Understanding, it just
seems to me these are the only sort of way that there is going to be a peace deal like that that's agreed.
And it is almost like, an unwillingness on the part of The White House to accept what a workable peace deal is going to look like. I mean, for
instance, the U.S. will lift its blockade on Iranian ports. Since the 13th of April, they've blockaded the Strait of Hormuz, you know, kind of stopped
more than a hundred vessels, disabled about four of them.
I mean, obviously, they are going to do that if there is going to be an end to this conflict.
Iran will restore the flow of commercial shipping through the Strait of Hormuz to pre-war levels within a month. I mean, these are the terms of the
Memorandum of Understanding that were sort of broadcast on Iranian state television earlier today.
I mean, of course, Iran is going to do that. There are some other issues as well. Iran and Oman will manage traffic through that Strait. On that last
point, actually, President Trump took particular exception to and not only did The White House call that whole sort of broadcast on Iranian state
television a complete fabrication, but that issue of Oman being involved in the management of the Strait, utterly rejected by President Trump.
QUEST: I am grateful, Matthew, with that side of the story. Thank you.
Tonight, the market back to where we were just saying, if you listened to what Jeff and then Matthew were saying, and now as remember what I was
saying about the contradictory messages coming from the markets and the economic indicators we've got. So, for instance, you've got high gas prices
and concerns about affordability that's driven U.S. consumer confidence to record low.
On the other hand, resilient cycle of earnings indicate Americans are still shopping.
[16:10:10]
Bond yields have risen to their highest level in a year. That is a good signal of anxiety. On the other hand, stocks at record levels, as you saw
tonight.
And even though the traffic in the Strait has slowed to a crawl, we have oil prices below $100.00 a barrel. Randall Kroszner is a former Fed
governor, now professor at the University of Chicago Booth School. He is with me now.
Very tricky, but you know --
RANDALL KROSZNER, FORMER FEDERAL RESERVE GOVERNOR, NOW PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO BOOTH SCHOOL: Oh, yes.
QUEST: The reality is, Randall, the U.S. economy is doing well. It is an opportunity cost that it could be doing better if it hadn't been for the
war.
KROSZNER: And so, yes, it is astonishing how resilient the U.S. consumer and U.S. economy overall has been. I mean, so many different shocks have
come in. The consumer continues to buy, even though the consumer reports that they are not very, very happy at all. Investment boom is going on
because of A.I. and technology and that is really helping us to get through.
QUEST: But when does it break -- either the consumer confidence or the market? When does -- let's throw all the metaphors on, when do the chickens
come home to roost?
KROSZNER: Yes.
QUEST: And basically investors say we are not happy.
KROSZNER: Sure. No, if I knew that, then it would be the Kroszner School of Business rather than the Booth School of Business. So it is always very
difficult to get the timing right of exactly when confidence will break and what will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
My goodness, there have been a lot of straws put on this camel's back and so far, it hasn't broken. We have seen yields go up significantly. And I
think that's one of the areas to look at that suggests that there is concern about the fiscal situation actually not only in the U.S. but
globally, because we've seen those yields rise. It is not just a U.S. thing, and the dollar has remained strong.
So, it is hard to see where the cracks are in the market. But I always get worried when no one else is worried, and so I am a little bit worried.
QUEST: So do you think at Kevin Warsh's first meeting, he takes the route of least resistance, which is to do nothing? He certainly can't cut rates.
I mean, the committee wouldn't go for it anyway if we look at the views of the committee. He is not going to raise them because that would just
inflame his boss, so to speak. He does nothing and he lives to fight another day.
KROSZNER: I think that's the most likely outcome. I think he will try to make a case in a statement that there are lots of positives about the U.S.
economy, the productivity growth, A.I. boom and such that might lead to potential for cuts down the line, but he certainly wouldn't have the votes
to do it now.
And I think that the way that he can explain it to the public as well as to the administration is affordability. It is very clear that is one of the
reasons why consumers are so down and voters are unhappy because they feel things are not affordable.
If he starts cutting rates, that raises very significant concerns about affordability. That is inflation going up.
QUEST: Do you think, Stephen Miran, I mean, if he votes for rate cuts, as he has done, does he have any credibility left?
KROSZNER: Well, I think Stephen had to leave in order to open up a slot for Kevin to join. So, I don't think you'll be seeing anyone voting for rate
cuts at the next meeting.
QUEST: The reality now of the scenario of where we are shows a difficulty for not only the big investor, the small investor, the 401(k) across the
board. And what do you do with an investment strategy in this environment?
KROSZNER: So I think you have to think about the long run. There is going to be a lot of turbulence in the short run. I mean, I am very much a sort
of long term diversified buy and hold type of investor and you just have to take a deep breath sometimes when these -- you get some shocks to
confidence, but I think that's the way to get through it.
We made it through the global financial crisis. We made it through COVID. We will make it through this.
QUEST: And on that, that's a good, good note. Certainly, on a day we've got records. I am grateful. Thank you.
Another day and it is another chip maker hitting a valuation of a trillion dollars. Shares in SK Hynix have surged nearly 250 percent this year.
The rally, it is arguably understandable, but we need to understand what next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:17:36]
QUEST: The South Korean chipmaker, SK Hynix has joined the $1 Trillion Club. Shares in the company were up more than nine percent in Seoul, and as
a result, its market cap is now greater than $1.1T, if you will. Look at all of those zeros, yes, try and count them.
The company is riding the strong demand for high-end memory chips used for A.I.
Two other makers, chip makers joined the trillion -- Samsung got there three weeks ago, Micron hit that number yesterday.
Clare is in New York. Clare Duffy, the chip makers getting there is fascinating because this isn't the A.I. themselves. These are the makers of
chips that the others rely upon.
So their business is solid as long as these data centers kept being built and more chips are needed.
CLARE DUFFY, CNN BUSINESS WRITER: That's right, Richard, and it is almost like investors are just waking up to the fact that these memory chips are
essential for the A.I. data center build out. And what is really important about the rise of these companies is that not only are these memory chips
essential for A.I. data centers, they are also used in things like smartphones and PCs and cars.
And so there is a shortage of them because there is this massive build out, but the prices have also gone up because all of these different companies
are competing for a limited number of chips.
Now, you're right that the question is whether this A.I. build out will continue at the pace that we've been seeing. But SK Hynix estimates that
there will be more demand than there is supply for at least the next three years.
And so you have to imagine that they are going to continue growing at this really significant pace, at least for a little while.
QUEST: All right, but Samsung and SK, we also know there is a political component here. The U.S. -- I mean, we had the, the CHIPS Act from
President Biden. We know the U.S. is determined to try and bring back as much manufacturing of chips, as well as R&D to the United States.
This is really just grist to the mill that you had better have in your supply chain or in your national strategy, chips.
DUFFY: Yes, that's exactly right. But part of the challenge right now is that these chip makers plan their development cycles out several years. And
so that's part of why we are seeing the shortage that we are seeing now is these chip makers just didn't plan for as much demand, as great of an A.I.
data center build out as we are seeing right now.
[16:20:00]
So as much as the U.S. wants to start increasing its chip making capacity here, it is going to take some time for that to happen, not only for these
facilities to get up and running, but then to make sure that the technology is where it needs to be to meet this demand.
You know, we saw SK Hynix reporting 5X quarterly profits in its most recent quarter. This is unlikely to slow down any soon.
QUEST: Right, which begs my final question, which is and I realize a company is worth -- share price is worth what the market thinks it is
worth, I get that, but is the consensus that they are overvalued now?
DUFFY: I think the consensus is more that investors are just catching up to how valuable they are, and perhaps they have been undervalued prior to this
moment. But I do think that they could start to run into the kind of problem that we've seen NVIDIA face, where even when they are posting these
blockbuster results, investors say, well, how long can you really be able to do that and start to sort of -- we start to see the stock price come
down a little bit even when they are posting these incredible earnings.
So I think that's something to watch with these memory chip makers is how much do investors have confidence that this growth will continue.
QUEST: Excellent. As always, thank you. Very grateful.
Last night on this program, we told you about the chairman of BP who was kicked out by the Board of Directors. Tonight and today, Albert Manifold
has been fighting back after only eight months on the job and being fired.
He wrote today, telling Bloomberg News: "I dispute entirely the characterization of my conduct, and I will not allow a false narrative to
go unchallenged."
Anna Cooban is with me. That false narrative, according to him, is governance, standards, oversight, conduct. He was a bit too shouty, says
one person. Too aggressive, says somebody else. "I will not allow a false narrative to go unchallenged." What does he mean?
ANNA COOBAN, CNN BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS REPORTER: What he is saying, Richard, is that he is not going without a fight. You know, this is quite
clear from that statement. He is implying potentially legal action. He is also -- well, it kind of is quite obvious here that he has not gone with a
payout. There is a lot of bad blood here.
Now, the characterization that he is roundly rejecting here is what has really been reported, because yesterday BP's statement wasn't giving much
information whatsoever. It just talked about in vagaries of serious misconduct.
But what's been reported is that, what you said, that he acted in a bullying manner, that he was aggressive, the FT being more specific, saying
that sources were telling it that he was acting as an executive chairman when he is a non-executive chairman, and that essentially he had spoken
down to senior members of staff in meetings and was restricting Meg O'Neill, the CEO, her ability to meet independently with other board
members.
Now, if this is true, this is quite serious stuff. He is obviously rejecting it. But what I find interesting, Richard, is the fact that Meg
O'Neill, the CEO, she came into this position in April. So just a few months ago formally, Manifold was responsible for partly getting her in and
now she is voting him off the Board.
QUEST: That's the point. She was on the Board. She is on the Board. And the decision they made quite clear to us exactly for that point, when they told
us the vote was unanimous, they were telling us that the CEO also wanted him gone. What a shambles, Anna.
COOBAN: It is a total shambles. And I think, Richard, this really speaks to a culture problem. We know that BP has had a strategy problem for the past
few years. It was going to become this massive green energy company, and then it sort of went back on that completely and said, no, we are actually
going to go back to our bread and butter, oil and gas, more exploration, a revolving door of CEOs, a CEO three years ago that had to step down,
Bernard Looney because he had failed to disclose personal relationships with colleagues.
And now, we've got yet another issue at the top. This is not good news for investors, this company as well, Richard, recently, it has been doing
pretty well, doubling profits in the first quarter.
And yet, still it cannot get its act together at the top in terms of its leadership, and this is not what investors want to see. We've seen the
stock down yesterday and today, and they are wondering when can it get its act together.
QUEST: I am wondering how much more dirty linen is going to be washed in public. Because clearly they did not buy him off as you say. I mean, I am
saying clearly, I don't know. But by the fact he has put out this statement, he left in very bad odor and I suspect we are going to hear
quite a bit more of BP's dirty linen.
DUFFY: I agree too, I agree too, he thinks that he did a fantastic job in his statement talking about cutting costs and also in BP's statement, they
to allude to the fact that he was really driving forward their strategy.
So clearly his behavior was something that they couldn't deal with.
QUEST: Get the strong rubber gloves out. We are going to need them before we finish covering this story. As the dirt and accusations start flying.
Thank you, Anna Cooban.
[16:25:08]
Soaring World Cup prices have sparked an investigation into FIFA's ticketing practices. One more thing against FIFA, the attorneys general of
New York and New Jersey say the governing body may be misleading fans, and only two weeks, I think it is almost two weeks to the day when the World
Cup starts.
QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Middle of the week. Hello, I am Richard Quest. Together, we've got a lot more QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.
World Cup tickets are so expensive that now, U.S. state officials have opened an investigation into the prices.
GDP isn't a flawless measure of prosperity. A U.N. group of experts come up with 31 complementary indicators. Its co-chair will be on this program only
after the headlines, because this is CNN and here, the news comes first.
President Trump says he doesn't care about the midterms and is in no rush to make a deal with Iran to end the war. It was during a Cabinet meeting
today, Wednesday. The President also said the U.S. would be prepared to blow up Oman if it doesn't cooperate with U.S. plans for reopening the
Strait of Hormuz.
In Laos, five of the seven villagers have been found alive in a flooded cave. They are said to be healthy and in good spirits and receiving
supplies to build up their strength for the journey out of the cave. The search for two of the others who are missing still continues.
Matthew Perry's personal assistant has been sentenced to 41 months in prison for his role in the actor's death. The "Friends" star died in 2023
after receiving a lethal dose of ketamine from Kenneth Iwamasa. As part of his plea agreement, Iwamasa provided key evidence against five other
defendants.
[16:30:09]
The attorneys general of New York and New Jersey are investigating FIFA about World Cup and ticketing practices. Letitia James and Jennifer
Davenport say fans may have been misled about seating locations at the MetLife Stadium in New Jersey. Also, they think FIFA's ticket releases may
have sent prices stalling.
Now, if you look at the third party site, SeatGeek, at the first match in New Jersey on June 13th, a single ticket costs six and a half, $6,400. The
cheapest seat is still pretty penny more. $1600. The next game at MetLife three days later, cheapest, $800.
So Brynn Gingras is with us in New York.
Substantially, what's the allegation here? What do they say that FIFA has been up to?
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they really are just saying that they're not being fair here. It's really the fans that are just losing
out on this, Richard. And I actually talked to one fan who described it as FIFA playing the old bait and switch in his particular case. He said he
waited on line to buy tickets for the World Cup. One of the earlier games, not a later match.
He said he went online, stood in the queue for 12 hours just to get these tickets. Finally found two seats next to each other, pretty decent seats,
he said, on the side of the pitch, not behind a goal, for a $515. So he's a lifelong soccer fan. He told me that he would knew he was going to be
paying a lot of money. Top dollar for these tickets. He says he waited five more minutes trying to get to the checkout, and the second that he
purchased those tickets, he gets a confirmation e-mail and the tickets he now has are completely not in the area that he picked. They are behind the
goal on the opposite side of the stadium.
So these are the stories that we are hearing about, but also the New York attorney general and the New Jersey. And quite frankly, the California
attorney general also has been hearing about and they're investigating.
QUEST: Now, I guess the core issue is this incompetence and poor technology and simply mismanagement, or is there some suggestion or the investigation
will be looking into whether actually this is, as you say, bait and switch or just simply bad practice?
GINGRAS: Exactly that. They're going to be looking into this. Did they break any laws, you know, in posting these tickets in the way that they're
selling these tickets? All along FIFA has been just saying, listen, this is obviously a very marketable ticket. People want it. And so we're just
following the rules. But like I said, California, New York, New Jersey, they all want to know, are they actually following the rules here?
And the fans are saying, look, FIFA has been doing this for a very long time. It's not just these World Cup tickets. It's the club tickets from the
year before and other times where there are games in the United States they've seen these practices play out. So this particular fan that I had
spoken to was super excited. Even though he's not from New York and New Jersey or California, that they're going to be looking into it.
He said in fact he's going to call his attorney general in his state to see what recourse there might be for him. But these investigations are
basically going to be looking into what sort of disclosures did these fans get when they purchased these tickets, and really, what was the, you know,
put on the Web site for FIFA purchasing the tickets. Did you tell a customer, hey, you can get a category one prime seat ticket? And then all
of a sudden in their hand is a category two ticket, which isn't as great.
So these are all the things that right now are going to be looking into. Of course, as you mentioned, Richard, the games are starting up in just a
couple of weeks. No clue if there will be any sort of restitution or any sort of resolution to any of this prior to those games starting, but it
does make fans a little bit happy that someone is on their side.
QUEST: Two weeks ago, and the cost of getting to the various stadium. Anyway, that's all for a story for another day.
GINGRAS: Yes.
QUEST: Are you actually going to get a chance to see a match, do you think?
GINGRAS: I mean, can I make my pitch to CNN? I mean, I'm on the credential list. I just need to get --
QUEST: Hey, you'll get there.
GINGRAS: Thank you, Richard.
QUEST: I'll put a word in for you.
GINGRAS: All right. All right, thanks.
QUEST: GDP. GDP. Gross Domestic Product isn't a perfect measure of prosperity. But if you don't have GDP, what is the alternative? A U.N.
commission was tasked with figuring that out. We've got the economist who helped lead the effort. And needless to say, what a bunfight it turned into
when they tried to redefine or try to find something better than GDP.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:36:54]
QUEST: GDP. Gross Domestic Product is the primary measure in which we all use to see a lot economy. We've always known GDP doesn't capture
everything. It says a number that shows economic growth and the size of an economy. After all, when I spoke to the E.U. Executive Vice President
Teresa Ribera in March, she was quite clear, GDP does not fully reflect Europe's prosperity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERESA RIBERA, E.U. EVP FOR A CLEAN, JUST AND COMPETITIVE TRANSITION: I think that this is people that may be jealous of the high quality of life
in Europe. Look what we have got in terms of expectancy of life, high quality of life, style for everybody. And in fact, we are great innovators,
too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: And that is the problem. So the U.N. set up a commission on GDP last year, tasked with designing a set of indicators to better measure. And we
got the results this month. There are 30 or so other measurements.
Kaushik Basu helped lead that effort as co-chair of the commission. He's an economist at Cornell University.
Professor, good to see you, sir. Thank you for joining me. What a task. Even before you started, you must have known you were on a hiding to
nothing. And at the end of the day, no one was going to fully agree about what should be. Once you move away from GDP, all bets are off.
KAUSHIK BASU, ECONOMIST, CORNELL UNIVERSITY: Thank you very much for having me. Indeed, one of the big comforts is one had anticipated some of the
reaction, but the task really was sufficiently big that right at the beginning, when the call came from the U.N. secretary-general's office
about doing this, co-leading this, I was interested.
I do believe that GDP has played a phenomenal role from 1944 to roughly now, but it is beginning to backfire. It is beginning to hide important
things under the single banner, single indicator of GDP. So trying to modify it, complement it, and bring in other things is extremely important.
If I may just give you one example why initially I was interested is countries are using GDP as this one indicator, which the whole country
rallies around with very little attention to how it is being distributed. If the GDP goes to five individuals in your country, the whole country
celebrates. If the GDP does damage to the future generation, GDP is still growing. You celebrate.
To correct this, to move us, wean us away from this game that we are locked into, this huge animal called GDP that we are after seemed the right thing
to do, and I was happy to join in that initiative.
QUEST: Right. But then of the 30 or so other barometers, which for you, and we saw a couple of them on the screen, which for you is the most
significant? And, you know, accepting they're all equal at one level, which do you really -- we've got human rights, sustainability, equality,
inequality. What's the most important?
[16:40:05]
BASU: I should also tell you, I don't think all of them are equally important, but I won't tell you which one is more or less. But if I had to
pick on three, four of them, and that's the way in which I have been engaged in this, we've given you a platform of 31 indicators, but I do
hope, develop all of them but give salience to a couple of them.
One that I would go for is, how this GDP for the entire country is distributed. And one reason why this is more urgent today, maybe over the
last 10 or 15 years than it was when GDP was initially used, is for the super-rich in the olden days, yes, you did not like the fact that some
people were super rich and there was poverty, but the super-rich had more mansions, more yachts, more cars.
OK, nowadays the super-rich takes over a television station, takes over a social media platform.
QUEST: Right.
BASU: Takes over a newspaper. So the inequality is translating into a voice inequality, where it's getting concentrated at the top, the influence on
the voice. So inequality is spilling over into an erosion of democracy. So number one, there should be some indicator and there's enough discussion in
our report that something which is a correction of GDP for how it's distributed. Number two.
QUEST: OK.
BASU: Sustainability. We are really at a dangerous stage in the world. The world heating up, the pollution is rising. We have to think of GDP when it
grows at the expense of our progenies, the future generations. We have to make corrections for that.
QUEST: All right. But let me just jump in.
BASU: Yes.
QUEST: Let me jump in.
BASU: Sure.
QUEST: Because at the end of the day, do you envisage being able to quote a number that would be, for example, well, GDP was X, but the country is Y on
the commission scale. Do you envisage eventually this, there will be a single digit or letter or point of reference that we can compare pari passu
against countries?
BASU: Single digit or two or three indicators. I am keeping my fingers crossed that we will get to this out of this report, so that countries
begin to play the game, not just of moving ahead of our neighboring country on GDP, but some of these, two or three of these critical corrective
measures. Not all 31, no one will have that attention span, but two or three important ones put out regularly cross country.
QUEST: Right.
BASU: And people are competitive when they see a neighboring country doing better, you'll begin to compete, but compete on something good.
QUEST: Thank you, Professor. And by the way, thank you for joining us. And thank you. One of my producers, Josh, was a student of yours at university.
BASU: How wonderful.
QUEST: You clearly, you clearly taught him well, his economics tonight, as we have evidenced by the way he's writing.
BASU: Fantastic.
QUEST: Thank you, sir. Good to have you with us.
BASU: Thank you very much.
QUEST: It is a small world indeed. And talking of small world, who's watching. A British spy chief is warning and watching. The U.K. and its
allies are vulnerable to Russian cyberattacks. And in a moment, what we need to do about it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:45:55]
QUEST: A very senior British intelligence officer now says the U.K. and its allies risk losing a conflict in cyberspace against those like Russia. It's
Anne Keast-Butler. She is the head of GCHQ, which is the governments monitoring station and highly secret. Moscow is apparently relentlessly
targeting critical infrastructure across Europe. The U.K. and Poland only signed a defense treaty today to combat exactly these sorts of threats.
Sebastian Shukla is in Berlin.
People like the head of GCHQ, MI5. They don't speak very often, and when they do speak publicly, we listen very carefully and -- but she didn't
really tell us what we can necessarily do about it all, did she?
SEBASTIAN SHUKLA, CNN PRODUCER: No, she didn't, but she had a message to everybody in the U.K. and anybody who was listening to her that
cybersecurity is something that everybody has to take incredibly seriously. That was right through boardrooms, down through living rooms and what we're
doing at home. And she's right that the U.K. is experiencing cyber threats, hybrid attacks, gray zone attacks, whatever you want to call them, Richard,
on a near daily basis.
And that it's not just the U.K. either. It's something that we're experiencing and all countries across Europe are experiencing, including
here in Germany. And I think that feeds into and it was serendipity I think that the Polish prime minister and the British prime minister signed this
defense security cooperation agreement today in London because what that's doing is bringing the two countries closer together on a bilateral basis.
They're obviously already very close allies in Europe to work on their own mutual security. What they're hoping to do is build to use their own
intelligence that they have, their own human intelligence and their own separate capabilities to be able to improve each other's defenses because
they have that mutual enemy of Russia that is becoming more (INAUDIBLE) every single day, and that both countries facing attacks and reprisals from
Russia, from Iran and from China.
Richard, take a listen to what the head of GCHQ had to say about that threat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNE KEAST-BUTLER, DIRECTOR, GCHQ: It's rare for any head of an intelligence agency to speak in public, but I'm doing so to you today
because we are at a moment of consequence where the actions we take and the partnerships we build are ever more critical, given the threats we face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHUKLA: And those threats we face, Richard, are becoming more and more aggressive and becoming more and more acute, particularly in the context of
the United States taking a step back in Europe and putting the onus on those European nations to look after their own defense and security. And I
think that is what this pact today signed with Poland and other ones signed with Germany and with France is really doing for the U.K.
They are reaching their tentacles back out into Europe 10 years after Brexit to say, you know, we are prepared to cooperate on this level --
Richard.
QUEST: All right. Sebastian Shukla, in Berlin. I'm grateful. Thank you.
A Royal Air force jet carrying the U.K. defense secretary apparently experienced signal jamming while it was flying near the Russian border last
week. It was first reported by "The Times of London." Now the secretary, John Healey, was returning from Estonia to the U.K. when the incident
occurred. The plane's GPS was disabled for the entire three-hour flight. It forced the pilot to use a different navigation system, and the speculation
is it's Russia that was behind it all.
A few days earlier, the U.K.'s Ministry of Defense revealed two Russian jets had intercepted an RAF spy plane above the Black Sea.
Michael O'Connor is executive vice president of positioning, navigation and timing at the satellite telecommunications firm Iridium.
[16:50:02]
I'm guessing you're not surprised by all of this. We've had certain commercial aircraft that have had something -- or similar things happened
to them. How risky and dangerous is it when it does happen?
MICHAEL L. O'CONNOR, EXECUTIVE VP OF POSITIONING, NAVIGATION AND TIMING, IRIDIUM: Indeed. It can be incredibly dangerous. So first of all, thanks
for having me here. I'll just say that the incidence of GPS jamming and spoofing that are happening globally and are tracked globally almost
overnight have gone from fewer than a thousand per month to over 1,000 a day. So it's becoming a huge problem.
And of course, you know, these systems that are impacted are things that impact our daily -- everyday lives, right? Our reliance on GPS has created
a real vulnerability because attackers have figured out how to disrupt these signals by jamming and spoofing them.
QUEST: So when you have spoofing where you're making one thing look like something else, or this jamming, why -- how difficult is it for us to track
its source? You know, I think back to the Second World War and jamming of radio signals and all of that sort of stuff. How difficult is it for us to
know who's doing what and where?
O'CONNOR: That's a great question. It turns out that with GPS, GPS is a pretty weak signal, so it doesn't take very much power to jam it. The GPS
is coming from satellites that are 20,000 kilometers over the surface of the Earth. So what that means is by the time these signals get to us,
they're fairly weak signals, which means that, you know, a jammer does not have to transmit a lot of power to block the signal.
And what's even more dangerous is spoofing. So if an attacker can actually create a false signal that causes you to think that you're in a place that
you are not within your navigation system, that's even worse because it's, you know, very, very difficult to track that you even have a problem, let
alone where the attacker could be that's causing or being the source of that problem.
QUEST: So, you know, from your point of view, what can we do about it? And I'm guessing that if I had a Russian expert on the program, he would say,
well, the West is up to it as well. They're all up to it. And I suppose there's probably a little bit of truth in that, though, although you and I
will necessarily never know. But what can we do about it? Because clearly any agreement, any agreement not to do it would simply be broken.
O'CONNOR: I think that's the challenge, especially in a military or wartime environment. The good news is, as you say, industry has been aware of this
critical vulnerability for years, and solutions are now available that help -- can help improve resilience to navigation that can help augment and
support GPS. So just as an example, Iridium, the company that I work for, offers a GPS-like signal that comes over our 66 low Earth orbit satellites.
And that signals about 1,000 times stronger than GPS. So that means you do take a lot more power to jam that signal. It can really overcome jamming.
And it also has resilience within it based on cryptography. So it can also overcome spoofing. There are other, you know, other providers and industry
as well as in governments that are providing additional signals as well.
QUEST: Michael, anybody going on their summer holidays who's worried about all of this and the incidents are rare that we know of in a sense of
commercial jets. It has happened. The incidents are rare. Is this something people should be concerned about?
O'CONNOR: I think it's something that we as a society need to be building more resilience into our navigation systems. I think from a day-to-day
operations, you know, depending on where your flights may be going, like aviation systems are very safe and they have resilience and redundancy
built into them. But I will say that we need to change how we think about this as a society.
And I have no doubt that 2026 is going to go down in history as the year that we all learned that we can no longer ignore these threats of GPS
jamming and spoofing. We need to adopt solutions in the maritime industry, in transportation, aviation, and other places.
QUEST: Michael, I'm very grateful to have you on the program tonight. Thank you, sir.
Now, to a subject that you and I have talked about frequently over the last few weeks, let's assume your plane takes off because there's enough fuel.
And let's assume that you're not jammed or spoofed and you actually get to your destination. Bingo. Now your problems really start.
Travelers going through some European airports are waiting for hours at borders. We've talked about it because of the new E.U. entry system, which
fully became operational last month. Biometric data, fingerprints, photographs from non-E.U. nationals.
Now, Clarissa Ward was caught up in a massive delay in Portugal.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I want you to take a look at this line here in Lisbon airport to leave the country. It is quite
honestly astonishing and testimony to just what a disaster these new rules EES rules are regarding all passport holders who are not from the European
Union.
[16:55:17]
And British tourists have been warned that this summer they should be prepared to wait up to six hours upon arrival. I asked the people who work
here what happens if you're going to miss your flight, and they said, then you're going to miss your flight. So you can imagine how much money that is
costing the airlines. The airlines are asking for it to be temporarily waived, at least during the peak tourist summer months.
And you just see, like small children, toddlers, people waiting and waiting, missing flights, missing connections. So I just got to the gate.
Obviously I've missed my flight. The next one I can get on is in six hours' time, but this really isn't about me at all. This is about thousands and
thousands of people who are basically going through complete insanity. The system doesn't work.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUEST: Oh, this is red meat to the bull or whatever that phrase is. I'll have a "Profitable Moment" on this very subject after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Tonight's "Profitable Moment," I do not know how any transport minister in Europe at the moment can feel proud of themselves about the way
they are running their entry scheme under the new biometrics. So much so that Dover had to postpone it and lift it. Other countries have lifted the
scheme for British travelers simply because it is an unparalleled disaster.
People waiting -- you heard Clarissa's report. Let me tell you, in the last week, I've had a cameraman going through Frankfurt that just about missed
his flight. I've had a producer going through Schiphol in Amsterdam nearly missed the flight. I've nearly missed my flight. Wherever you're now going
in Europe, the delays are unconscionable. And my point is simple -- efficacy and efficiency are not mutually exclusive.
You've had years to put this in place. You've got the machines. You've got the biometrics. I even timed how long each person took. It takes about
three minutes at some airports. You've got flights, Ryanair, EasyJet, Wizz, Jet2.Com, all landing at the same time. No, the truth is very simple. It is
a shambles. People should be ashamed of the way they're operating it and frankly someone needs to be fired.
Right. Got that off my chest because that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for tonight. I'm Richard Quest in London. Whatever you're up to in the hours
ahead, I hope it's profitable. I'll see you tomorrow.
END
