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Rick's List
Victory For Gays in the Military?; Investigating Buffalo Plane Crash
Aired February 02, 2010 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROCK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Here's what's making THE LIST.
Did you see the president's town hall?
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I've got to be honest with you, there are no magic wands that makes economic problems that were years in the making disappear overnight.
SANCHEZ: More pushing back from both sides. You'll see it.
OBAMA: I will work with Congress and our military to finally repeal the law that denies gay Americans the right to serve the country they love because of who they are.
(APPLAUSE)
SANCHEZ: Military leaders say, not so fast. Today, what will the policy be? We're joined by this gay soldier who says he should be allowed to serve his country, and the critic who says no, he shouldn't.
And because it's Groundhog Day, thought we would share this happy pairing. What is that? We'll tell you.
The lists you need to know about. Who's "Today's Most Intriguing Person"? Who's on "The List You Don't Want To Be On"? You'll find out as our national conversation on Twitter, on the air continues.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: I'm Rick Sanchez.
Here is what else is making THE LIST for you right now. You saw those stories that we're telling you we're going to be covering for you.
We're also covering a development out of Iran, where the Iranians seem to be willing now to strike some kind of deal where they're willing to release those three Americans who were captured hiking in the mountains.
There's some question, according -- this is according to the Associated Press, by the way -- there's some questions here as to exactly -- exactly what this quid pro quo, if it is a quid pro, quo is.
There's the Americans there. Those are Shane Bauer, Sarah Shourd, and Josh Fattal. They were hiking in the Northern Kurdistan area. Their families are telling us, look, they did nothing wrong.
But we now are able to get a little bit more of a clarification. You saw my discussion a little while ago with Gloria Borger and with David Gergen. I just frank -- frankly told you, and they were as curious as I was, as to what this Associated Press report meant by the words they're willing to exchange -- the Iranians are willing to exchange these three hikers which they have for Iranians currently serving in American prisons.
There's Ahmadinejad, the president. That's what he said. Come back over here, Robert, if you would, now, too. I want to show you something. This may clear that up a little bit. Let me see if I can find that passage. This is a translation provided by CNN translators, which we have asked to go through what Ahmadinejad was saying.
Here's that part. See right there where it says -- "And even they have abducted" -- pardon the syntax issues here -- "And even they have abducted some of our citizens in other countries and are holding them in the U.S., and they even pressured countries to arrest our citizens and hand them over to the Americans. This is not very good, and for the time being there are no negotiations taking place. We don't like anyone in jail or in prison, but these people have violated our borders and it's a defined penalty."
Now, he brings those up, Iranians who apparently have been arrested in other countries, but the Americans had them arrested. We're not sure exactly what he's talking about, but that's his language, as -- as syntax-problematic as it may be. Obviously, if we get more information, combining out own resources with the Associated Press report we received just a little while ago, we will share it with you and drill down on that.
Now back to the stories that we have been following once again.
I want you to watch this. This is, again, Judd Gregg, senator from New Hampshire, literally getting in Peter Orszag's face. I want to show it this time to Jessica Yellin, who is going to be joining us on the backside. She may have an interesting take on this, as well as David Gergen's was.
Let's watch this together one more time. It is passionate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER ORSZAG, DIRECTOR OF OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET: The purpose of TARP was to address problems in our financial markets. One of the lingering -- and it has been remarkably successful in bringing credit spreads back down to normal levels.
One of the lingering problems in the -- in our financial markets, however, is access to credit for small businesses. It's why, in this budget, we're... SEN. JUDD GREGG (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: No, no, no. You can't make that type of statement with any legitimacy.
ORSZAG: OK.
GREGG: You cannot make that statement. This is the law.
ORSZAG: Small businesses are not suffering from...
(CROSSTALK)
ORSZAG: ... lack of...
(CROSSTALK)
GREGG: Let me tell you what the law says. Let me read it to you again, because you don't appear to understand the understand the law.
The law is very clear. The moneys recouped from the TARP shall be paid into the general fund of the treasury for the reduction of the public debt.
It's not for a piggy bank because you're concerned about lending to small businesses.
(CROSSTALK)
ORSZAG: ... require this legislation.
GREGG: And you want to get a political event when you go out and make a speech in Nashua, New Hampshire. That's not what this money is for. This money is to reduce the debt of our children that we're passing on to our children.
And you ought to at least have the integrity to be forthright about it and say that's what you're doing. You're adding to the debt that our kids are going to have to pay back when you're claiming at the same time...
ORSZAG: Senator, with respect...
GREGG: ... that you're being fiscally responsible.
(CROSSTALK)
GREGG: Let me ask you another question, because, clearly, we're not going to agree on this, and you are not going to follow the law.
Secondly...
(CROSSTALK)
ORSZAG: Sorry. I do -- Excuse me. We will be following the law. This would involve legislation...
(CROSSTALK) GREGG: Well, then you are not going to be able to do it unless Congress...
ORSZAG: Yes.
GREGG: ... gives you the authority to do it.
ORSZAG: Exactly.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Yes. That is how laws are made usually. Congress passes them.
GREGG: Did the senator from Vermont make a statement? Well, the senator is wrong. This is the law as it stands today. There is no law on the books.
SANDERS: And Congress can amend the law.
(CROSSTALK)
GREGG: There's a law on the books, Senator.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: And then those two guys argue. It -- you know, it's enough to have popcorn fall out of your mouth when he goes in there and says, no, no, no.
In fact, Roger, I want you to re-cue that just at the very top. I -- audience, watch the guy just behind the director of budgets, Peter Orszag. He's eating popcorn. Now, watch when he gets interrupted what happens. Look at the guy in the background there. Watch.
I just kind of want you to watch this. Watch what happens when he says, no, no, no. Stay with me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ORSZAG: ... access to credit for small businesses. It's why, in this budget, we're...
SEN. JUDD GREGG (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: No, no, no. You can't make that type of statement with any legitimacy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Jessica, I didn't know what that was. I didn't know it if was a lozenge or popcorn. It's enough to make you, like, I don't know, it spit stuff up when these guys start screaming at each other.
Look, bottom line is, though, as we look at this, you know, isn't this the kind of fight that Democrats want, because it puts them arguing for the little bit -- the small business man, right? This kind of plays to their favor politically? JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. If ever there were a time this White House would say, bring it on, this is it, because now they're standing up for Main Street.
And if -- if -- look, to be fair to Judd Gregg, as your conversation earlier pointed out, he's trying to focus on paying down the debt. But he's still going to have to answer the question, why was it OK to give this money to Citibank and Bank of America and J.P. Morgan, but not OK to give it to my local loan officer in my town who's going to help the small businesses that I do business with stay and -- stay and -- functioning?
And this is a Main Street vs. Wall Street argument. It's a sweet spot for this White House.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you something. I keep coming back to this, but I'm seeing this trend over the last week. You and I talked about it yesterday. I just talked to David Gergen about it, as well as Gloria Borger, interesting take from David Gergen, by the way, saying that Judd Gregg is probably a little bit bothered by the fact that the president is in his home state politicking.
YELLIN: Yes, hometown politics.
SANCHEZ: Yes. That was an interesting take. I hadn't thought of that. We will leave that aside.
Do you see this White House being -- we talked about this yesterday -- they're more aggressive, maybe more assertive. They're pounding the Republicans a little bit more. Do you believe that they have concluded that bipartisanship, which some argue they tried too much, is just a loser for them, and now they're going to smack them in the mouth?
YELLIN: No.
I think what they have -- they -- they're doubling down now on showing that they're going to try to work with Republicans, they're going to try to find common ground, and look like they're trying very hard to build consensus, but then pick fights where they think it's a winner.
So, in other words, instead of haggling with the Republicans for months and months and months on a health care bill, lay down the law and lay down the line, and say, look, here, we're willing to adopt some of your ideas, for example, on Wall Street reform, and, then, if they refuse to come on board at that point, then the White House has to cut bait and pick a few fights with Republicans to prove their argument that the Republican are being obstructionists.
Do you see the difference, the distinction I'm making?
SANCHEZ: Yes. Yes.
YELLIN: Which is trying to work with them, but then having the courage to say, we can't, it's not going anywhere, and trying to make the Republicans the enemy. SANCHEZ: That's a different strategy, and it's an interesting strategy.
YELLIN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And I'm glad you brought that to our attention.
But, for some reason, your satellite is taking some hits, so we're going to let you go and maybe catch up with you a little bit later.
I mean, we're fine. We got everything you said, but from time to time you just kind of looked like you...
YELLIN: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: ... were getting a little hash or something on the screen.
Thanks, Jessica. Appreciate it.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: And this:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last 355 days have been a living nightmare, a living hell, and I deeply regret your pain and your loss. Our job at the Safety Board is very clear. We are here to find out what happened, so that we can try and prevent it from happening again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: What a story this is. What exactly did happen that caused last year's deadly crash in Buffalo? Are any changes under way to make flying on commuter planes safer for you and for me?
How different is flying on a commuter plane than flying on a big airliner, for example? It's different. Our Brooke Baldwin has been drilling down on the answers for this. If you fly, you are going to want to see this.
Also, the secretary of defense says it's time to rethink don't ask, don't tell. What do the military rank-and-file say about this? What if you were already tossed out of the service? We are going to get reaction from it. Dan Choi is going to be joining us here in just a little bit, who has led the charge to end this policy.
And a lot of your tweets and tweets from newsmakers as well.
You're watching THE LIST. It's nine minutes after 4:00. Come on back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: As we show you this next report, I want to see if you recognize something.
Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. This is RICK'S LIST.
A person's mojo is an elusive thing. You learned that from Austin Powers. My kids remind me all the time. One day, you have got it. The next day, it's -- poof -- gone.
President Obama is trying to regain his mojo -- so we're told by some of our pundits -- and some political capital at town hall meetings like today's event in New Hampshire. Just how off his game has the president been, or on?
Let's check with Jon Stewart.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE DAILY SHOW WITH JON STEWART")
JON STEWART, HOST, "THE DAILY SHOW WITH JON STEWART": As you know, it's been a little bit of a rough ride for the Obama administration over the past few months. Unemployment remains high. They have suffered multiple special election losses.
And, from what I understand, they have even lost Jon Stewart.
Oh, my God!
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: Oh, my God! They have lost Jon Stewart. And, as Stewart goes, so goes an incredibly small, yet, for some reason, demographically valuable, segment of our population.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
STEWART: Thank you.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
STEWART: Hey, keep being gullible to advertising.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: You know how President Bush suffered when he lost Jon Stewart.
I mean...
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: ... that guy was run out of office after only eight years.
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: But, even with President Obama's troubles, nobody was prepared for this. Obama joins GOP?
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: What? God, what a front-runner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: There you go. By the way, some of the banners that shocked Jon Stewart came from us right here on RICK'S LIST. We had a -- a little fun with the president's speech at the GOP retreat last week.
But, for anybody who might have been remotely confused, the president remains Democrat, with a capital D.
Coming up: This man became the face of don't ask, don't tell, so you know that Dan Choi has a lot to say about today's decision to review this policy. It's an important discussion that many Americans are having. In fact, he had an exchange with a member of the Armed Services Committee right after the hearing. We're going to talk to him live in our next half-hour. And we are also going to talk to somebody who opposes his point of view.
Also, imagine going head to head with your ex in public. The stakes couldn't be higher. A win could change your life forever. A person who made a pretty impressive list this morning makes our most intriguing list this afternoon.
We have got a lot coming your way. And don't forget we're trying to get all the latest out of Iran, breaking news there. Stay with us.
THE LIST returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Time for a Twitter alert, first, what some of you are saying about what we're talking about, and then what some very significant officials in Washington are saying about what we're talking about. It's called don't ask, don't tell, essentially a homosexual ban in military.
Listen to this: "Don't ask, don't tell seems more like a frat rule than a policy. End it."
And right under that, we hear, "If you're good enough to die, then that other stuff shouldn't matter period."
And Joe Lieberman just tweeted. Here's his position on don't ask, don't tell. He says, "I have always opposed don't ask, don't tell and look forward to working with the administration and military to repeal this unjust law" -- Joe Lieberman coming in against the don't ask, don't tell policy. All right, also this. She is one-half of what some Web sites are calling the Oscar...
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: ... the Oscar death match. Does this sound intriguing? We thought so, too.
So, here's MIP. Who we talking about? Well, she modeled in a gap ad and directed "Point Break." You know that movie where Keanu Reeves plays an FBI agent pretending to be a surfer so that he can catch Patrick Swayze and his surfer gang?
You remember. It's the movie where there wore Reagan, and Nixon, and LBJ, and Carter masks to rob banks. Right. Well, now she's going head-to-head with her ex at the Oscars. Have you seen her thriller about a bomb squad that searches out and destroys roadside bombs in Baghdad? This is a great new movie out there. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE HURT LOCKER")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Forty-five seconds. You have 45 seconds, Sanborn.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Go!
(SCREAMING)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Everybody, get back!
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Go, go, go!
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Get back!
(SCREAMING)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Come on!
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: We got one.
(SCREAMING)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Go! Get back!
(SCREAMING)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Get back!
(SCREAMING)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: There's too many locks. There's too many. I can't do it. I can't get it off. I'm sorry, OK? You understand? I'm sorry. You hear me? I'm sorry. I'm sorry!
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Get down now!
(SCREAMING)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Get down!
(SCREAMING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Oh, my God, what a movie.
One of the most intriguing persons of the day is Kathryn Bigelow, who just became the first woman named best director by the Directors Guild. Yes. And, this morning, her movie "The Hurt Locker," which is what you were just watching right there -- everyone is talking about it -- it got nine Oscar nominations, nine, hardly out yet, same as her ex-husband James Cameron's monster hit "Avatar."
Husband vs. wife makes wife, Kathryn Bigelow, our most intriguing person of the day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL O'HANLON, SENIOR FELLOW IN FOREIGN POLICY STUDIES, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: There are lot of 18-year-old, old-fashioned, testosterone-laden men in -- in the military.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Is the military really ready to end don't ask/don't tell? Looks like they're moving in that direction, based on the hearings we were following for you today and the announcements subsequent to that.
We are going to put that question to a service member who was kicked out for being gay and the man who also helped draft this controversial policy. He's going to tell us why he thinks it would not be good to repeal it. This is an interesting debate. Americans are having it. We're going to have it.
This is RICK'S LIST. I'm Rick. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
You know the policy. It's called don't ask, don't tell, but what if somebody else tells on you? You didn't do it. Somebody else did it. Should a service member who wants to fight for his country, loves his country, be allowed to do so if he's gay? Should the military force others to accommodate them?
Two good questions, right? Well, today, the Senate Armed Services Committee started looking into changing this policy somehow.
I have two guests, men who represent opposing sides on this issue.
But, first, let me frame the story for you with the help of our Pentagon correspondent. Here's Barbara Starr.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president made his intentions clear.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This year I will work with Congress and our military to finally repeal the law that denies gay Americans the right to serve the country they love because of who they are.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
STARR: But the stone-faced Joint Chiefs of Staff didn't react to the sensitive matter. We now know more about what they are thinking.
A senior Pentagon official tells CNN the Chiefs are expected to support the president, but they will tell him to what extent they believe allowing gays to openly serve will hurt morale and readiness of the force. The official says of the Chiefs, "All they want is a little bit of time to come up with their ideas on how to implement a change in the law, if it's approved by Congress." As a first step, Defense Secretary Robert Gates is expected to call for no longer discharging people who are outed by others. Over the last 12 years, nearly 11,000 people have been discharged from the military for being gay. Defense officials privately say the appetite to enforce the law is declining.
Many say the debate now is how to live with the change.
MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: One school of thought says just do it, it won't be that big a deal.
STARR: Existing regulations governing sexual behavior may be enough to allay concerns about living in close quarters, but that may not work for everybody.
O'HANLON: We can talk about this delicately or we can just be fairly direct. There are a lot of 18-year-old, old-fashioned, testosterone- laden men in the military who are tough guys, they're often politically old-fashioned or conservative. They are not necessarily at the vanguard in many cases of accepting alternative forms of lifestyle.
(on camera): But many believe the young troops in the field on the front line are more concerned with staying alive in the war than the sexual orientation of their buddies, and that the real challenge is convincing the older troops that the time for change has come.
Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Have you ever wondered how other countries deal with this issue? We did. We found out that 15 of the 28 countries in NATO, 15 of 28, do allow gays in the military. That includes the U.K. It includes Canada. And it also includes Germany. Just thought you should know.
Coming up: He's an Iraq war vet pushed out by don't ask, don't tell. That's lieutenant Dan Choi. He asks, "Why can't I defend the country that I love?" That's his question. Do you have an answer for him? "The country that I love."
He joins me live, as does a guest who disagrees with the lieutenant. And he's going to take us through his arguments.
By the way, the lieutenant has been sending some tweets here I'm going to be sharing with you as well. We will see those.
When we come back, though, see that thing right there? That is not Punxsutawney Phil, is it? Or maybe Punxsutawney Phil is like doing the McGwire juice or something. We're going to tell you why we just had to make room for this creature. That's coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
Ah, Groundhog Day, yes, Punxsutawney Phil. He did see his shadow, by the way. And that means six more weeks of winter.
Let's do "Fotos."
Buda, Texas. Imagine the shadow this guy would leave. Look at the size of this thing.
You see that, Brooke?
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: This is a capybara. And it...
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A what?
SANCHEZ: A capybara.
BALDWIN: OK.
SANCHEZ: Yes. It can grow up to, oh, 232 pounds. Can you believe that?
BALDWIN: This is a rodent?
SANCHEZ: Yes, big rodent. Caplin is his name. He weighs just a whopping 100 pounds, by the way, but he's a pet. He's a family pet...
BALDWIN: Not my pet.
SANCHEZ: ... in Texas. Its owner says he loves...
BALDWIN: Look, it has a leash on.
(LAUGHTER) SANCHEZ: Look at him next to like a little guinea pig.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: He loves to climb on the owner's lap, she says. But he's just too heavy and she can't take it for very long.
BALDWIN: I can understand that.
SANCHEZ: In South America, they're hunted for meat. And we're told it tastes like pork. Just thought you should know.
BALDWIN: Ooh.
SANCHEZ: You should dry it, and salt, it, and then shred it, and then you season it. I'm just saying.
BALDWIN: I don't think so.
SANCHEZ: Why did we even have to bring that up, right? I don't know.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: To Liberty, Missouri. Lose the banner and look at the lower left of your screen, Roger Dodger. This is surveillance video.
A couple of -- is checking out the decoration jar. They want to help out in the Haiti disaster relief fund, right? Wrong? That's a really bad play on who took the cookie from the cookie jar, right? I mean, take a look at these two again. They get their food, and then the man is seen swiping the money from poor people who have just been through an earthquake.
BALDWIN: They're stealing the Haiti donation jar?
SANCHEZ: It sure does look like that, doesn't it?
BALDWIN: Oh, my goodness.
SANCHEZ: Does it get much lower than that?
BALDWIN: No.
SANCHEZ: Let's go to NASA now, where they just recently unveiled this. It's a new way to get around. It's a personal aircraft and it's electric.
It takes off like a helicopter, or hekipuchopter (ph). That's what my son used to say when he was little.
BALDWIN: Say what?
SANCHEZ: A hekipuchopter (ph). You know kids.
It flies like a plane and can cruise at 149 miles an hour. And get this -- there is a boost mode which will hit twice that speed, and it's quiet. Don't look for this any time soon as it's still in the testing stages.
Jessica Yellin is back, this time talking about politics in Illinois.
And you know what's interesting, Jessica? This is the next big race after the Massachusetts race, and everyone's saying -- heck, Wolf Blitzer and I were talking about this yesterday. He seems to be suggesting, Wolf does, that Barack Obama has found his mojo after the beating that his party took in Massachusetts.
So now everyone is looking in Illinois and wondering, is this going to be part dos? Could this happen there again? Will this come into play, the folks coming out against the Dems, because they're the party in power and they're "spending too much"?
Your answer is?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It could. There is a lot of frustration with Democrats, but you keep saying this hour, and last hour, Rick, all politics is local. And the frustration with Democrats here has a lot more to do with what's going on here in Illinois than it does with what's going on in Washington, D.C., because don't forget Rod Blagojevich. Remember, our favorite governor?
SANCHEZ: Yes.
YELLIN: There is such a problem with corruption in this state, and Democrats control the governor's mansion, the state house, many local offices, most of the congressional offices. If you're annoyed with corruption in this state, you want to throw the Dems out, put someone new in. That means a good year for a Republican in this state, and it means President Obama's Senate seat could likely maybe go to a Republican this time.
SANCHEZ: So what you're saying is that, really, the Republicans don't need any help in Illinois trying to bring out a sense of anger in the populous in terms of what the Dems have been doing. Right?
YELLIN: Right.
SANCHEZ: And you know what? And it's not just Blagojevich, right? I mean, any historian of that part of the country will tell you that it's been going on for quite some time.
YELLIN: I was talking to the Republican leading candidate here, Mark Kirk, a House representative who's also in the Navy Reserve. He said his was in Afghanistan, because he serves in the reserves in Afghanistan. And he said he was talking to a politician in Afghanistan who said, "You're from Illinois? You people are more corrupt than we are."
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: I'm not sure if I should laugh at that.
YELLIN: That's not great advertisement. SANCHEZ: No, no, no. It's not. And it raised (ph) a lot.
YELLIN: But he meant to make a larger point, which is that they want to clean up government. I will make this point, Rick -- as much as Mark Kirk, this leading Republican, is running as a Republican, in my brief interview with him he used the word "Independent" five times, so the message is neither party is super popular. Everyone wants to be seen as an Independent, a reformer. And that's the theme we're going to see all year long, here and across the nation.
SANCHEZ: It's cool to be Independent these days. Everybody keeps bringing that word up. I'm not sure exactly what it means. I think it means different things for different people, by the way.
Jessica, as usual, good job. Thanks for taking us through this.
We're also going to have this coming your way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: History is repeating itself. We are seeing issues come up in this accident that we've seen before, and unfortunately it's taken 50 more lives for us to focus additional attention on these issues that have not been addressed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right. What we're talking about is this -- this is about a year ago. There was a Buffalo crash, a crash of a commuter plane in Buffalo. Are the standards, are the policies, are the rules that are used on commuter planes different than the ones that are expected from major airliners?
Those are the questions that are really coming into play here. And we've been drilling down on this for you. And we're going to bring you information on what they're saying about that.
Also, later, what happened when the president came to town? We're following reaction from today's town hall meeting in Nashua, New Hampshire, where at times it was, well, shall we say, aggressive once again in terms of the president's message about the opposing party?
We're going to get some fresh insight from Wolf Blitzer. He's standing by. We're going to come back with that.
This is THE LIST. I'm Rick Sanchez.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back to RICK'S LIST.
There's breaking news coming out of Los Angeles having to do with Michael Jackson.
The man on the scene is CNN's Ted Rowlands. He's joining us now by telephone. Ted, what do you know?
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rick, Dr. Conrad Murray, it appears as though the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office is going to make a move in this case and charge Murray within the next few days. According to Murray's lawyers, they are expecting to surrender within the next 24 to 48 hours.
Murray flew from Houston over the weekend to come to Los Angeles, anticipating the charges. His lawyer is also in Los Angeles here. Now it's just a matter of how and where they're going to take him into custody, or if they will allow him to surrender outside of the spotlight of the media.
That's what Murray's lawyers are trying to achieve at this point. They don't want that enduring image of their client, the doctor, being led away in handcuffs. But clearly, it looks like they're going to make a move in this case, charging Dr. Conrad Murray in connection to the death of Michael Jackson.
SANCHEZ: All right. And just to catch our viewers up, Murray is the fellow who allegedly medicated Michael Jackson. And wasn't he one of the last persons to be with Michael just prior to his death?
ROWLANDS: He was there while Michael Jackson was dying. He had administered, admittedly, propofol. He told authorities that he was giving Michael Jackson propofol, the strong anesthetic usually used in a clinical setting, in Jackson's home.
He was there as Michael Jackson died. It was his voice you heard in the back of the 911 call while paramedics responded to Jackson's home. He is the guy that obviously has been the focus of this investigation since Jackson's death.
SANCHEZ: OK. That sounds good. Thanks so much for that update.
Ted Rowlands reporting to us live from Los Angeles as soon as he found that information.
We thank you. If you get anything else, Ted, let us know.
Has it really been almost a year since that horrible plane crash near Buffalo? Fifty people died when a twin engine commuter plane went in a house.
We're talking about it today because the NTSB is using that incident to frame up a report that the airline industry is probably not going to like. It's going to throw what is essentially a bright light on what the board sees as some major problems in the training, the safety, the pay scales and the physical demands that they place on professional pilots. But what we're talking about here specifically, though, is the commuter pilots and the commuter planes, and there's a difference between them and the guys with a lot of seniority, a lot of experience and a lot of flying hours on the bigger planes.
BALDWIN: And that's really the safety gap that this crash has highlighted. And, more or less, it's a paraphrase of what the chair of the NTSB said today during this meeting, which, by the way, is still going on some eight-plus hours later.
SANCHEZ: Right.
BALDWIN: She said this is essentially revealing this picture of complacency that lead to a catastrophe.
Real quickly, before I set up the sound bite, I want to just explain to you basically that the premise, the purpose of this meeting here, is twofold. One, to establish probable cause. They're still going through the minutia, but it's looking like, according to investigators, that it was not only an in-flight issue on behalf of the crew, but also pre-flight that led to this crash, as you mentioned, that killed 49 people in the plane, plus one on the ground.
But also, they're meeting and they're issuing these safety recommendations to make the airline industry much safer. But these recommendations, as you're about to hear, they are they are recommendation that the NTSB is very familiar with.
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEBORAH HERSMAN, CHAIR, NTSB: History is repeating itself. We are seeing issues come up in this accident that we've seen before -- training, pilot performance, record keeping, fatigue, sterile cockpit. These are issues that we have seen time and time again. And unfortunately, it's taken 50 more lives for us to focus additional attention on these issues that have not been addressed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Addressed by the regionals or addressed by the FAA?
HERSMAN: Issues that have not been addressed by the aviation industry, including the FAA.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Yes. And by the way, these are these short commuter flights, the regionals, as they call them, right?
BALDWIN: Correct. Right.
SANCHEZ: Just to be clear...
BALDWIN: And they have relationships, and in aviation terms it's called co-chairing. So, let's say, for this instance, this is Continental, and they had an agreement with -- what was it -- Con Air (sic).
SANCHEZ: So they want to make sure Continental pays...
BALDWIN: Colgan Air. Excuse me.
SANCHEZ: Yes. Let's say it's small airline B, big airliner A.
BALDWIN: Correct.
SANCHEZ: You've got to make sure if you're putting your passengers on that smaller airline, that they're doing the right thing by their passengers, and they're not texting on the plane, and that they're paid enough, and that they care, and that they've gotten enough sleep.
BALDWIN: And that's what they're looking into. And let me just blow through a couple of these points because I know we're running out of time.
One of the big issues is pilot fatigue. You know, you listen to these investigators talk about this particular instance, and this pilot, Captain Marvin Renslow, who had been seen napping in the crew lounge in Newark, which apparently had sort of been overlooked. But that is against policy.
The first officer, Rebecca Shaw...
SANCHEZ: She was texting.
BALDWIN: ... she was texting before the plane took off, in the five minutes. And also, she commuted from Seattle to New Jersey, which is fairly often in some of these commuter flights.
SANCHEZ: So she was going to be tired.
BALDWIN: So she was tired. She also had a cold.
Real quickly, let's take a look at just this one bit from the transcript that we pulled out just to illustrate this point.
Rebecca Shaw, she sneezes and says, "If I call in sick now, I've got to put myself in a hotel until I feel better." Renslow says, "That Airborne might help you out a little, and you could kill it with a bunch of OJ or vitamin C." Shaw says, "Yes, I've got a carton of orange juice to take home with me."
So, again, investigators pointing out fatigue is an issue.
You know, a couple other issues are the fact of pilot training. You know, transparency of pilot training.
It was clear that this pilot had fibbed, and Colgan Air had recognized that only after the fact. And they came forward saying, we wouldn't have hired this guy. But there are just all kinds of issues that are now coming on.
Long story short, they're coming out because of this. And hopefully the standards will be equal, the safety standards.
SANCHEZ: Right. To make people safe in the future.
BALDWIN: Exactly.
SANCHEZ: And by the way, I mean, God bless these guys.
BALDWIN: Absolutely.
SANCHEZ: They died, these pilots. You hate being critical of them in death and pointing out things that they may have done wrong.
BALDWIN: And they pointed that out today in the meeting -- look, they're wives, husbands, sons, daughters. Yes.
SANCHEZ: Right. I don't think anyone is meaning to be mean or critical of them, but it's important to know exactly what the policy should be.
Good stuff. Thank you. Appreciate it.
An about-face on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT GATES, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The question before us is not whether the military prepares to make this change, but how we best prepare for it. We have received our orders from the commander-in- chief, and we are moving out accordingly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: So, are they going to change this policy? Will they change it? We're going to get reaction from a military service member who has long opposed the policy. It's cost him his duty.
And a retired lieutenant colonel who defends the status quo. Both of those right here.
This is RICK'S LIST. It scrolls on.
I'm Rick Sanchez.
Thanks again, Brooke.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
A few minutes ago we showed you what is framing the debate over the military's ban on homosexuals in the military. That's the policy side. Now let's talk about the personal side, because that's what, really, it comes down to when people talk about this.
This is Lieutenant Dan Choi. He's facing being discharged from the Army National Guard for being gay. I mean, that's it.
I also want to introduce you to retired Lieutenant Colonel Robert Maginnis. He spent his last months in the military on a group looking at the military's ban on homosexuals. I think you can say that he is an expert on the policy itself.
So, Lieutenant Choi -- first of all, I'd like to thank both of you for being with us.
Lieutenant Choi, I'd like to begin with you.
Can you understand why some people might say it's important to not have gays in the military because there are people in the military who are simply uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with people they know are gay?
LT. DAN CHOI, FACES DISCHARGE FOR COMING OUT: No, I can't.
SANCHEZ: You've heard the argument before.
CHOI: I can't understand that rationale. I can't understand that argument.
There are already gay people in the military, and many of them are serving openly. But to apply our own fears and our sense of discomfort, perhaps, on the soldiers that are currently serving I think does an injustice to the soldiers.
Why would we assume that our soldiers, who are disciplined, who are capable, who are fighting two wars right now and doing it well, why would we assume that they would act solely based on fear and discomfort and somehow just lose it? I think if you assume that, you are betting against our soldiers, and the highest cost, of course, in all of this is you're forcing some soldiers to have to lie about who they are.
SANCHEZ: Lieutenant Colonel Maginnis, I read part of what you say, which is -- and I was astounded when I read this, sir -- you all but admit that part of the problem is that we're dealing with many men in the military who are in fact discriminatory when it comes to this.
You cop to that, right?
LT. COL. ROBERT MAGINNIS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, the Congress tells us, Rick, that we have to be a discriminatory organization. Only three in 10 Americans ages 17 to 24 qualify. So, you know, I've looked at the 35 pages of disqualifying criteria, and there are all sorts of things.
SANCHEZ: No. I mean, you believe -- and I read your report -- you believe that there are many men in the military that, by their very nature, young men, whatever it is that causes them to be this way, discriminate against gays.
Correct?
MAGINNIS: Well, empirically, I can't validate that.
SANCHEZ: But?
MAGINNIS: What I can tell you is that there are some. You know, clearly. And that's why we need to laud what Secretary Gates said today. He's going to take this issue, which we didn't do in '93, Rick. He's going to take it to the field and he's going to ask the soldiers and the families.
We should have done that back in '93, and maybe we wouldn't be here today. But I think that that's the wise sort of thing.
But I would recommend that the secretary take the product of the working group that we worked on, that was compelling to the U.S. Congress, a Democratic Congress, a Democratic president at the time, and they said, OK, we'll have a ban. If they had done the right sort of thing back then, I think perhaps we'd have a different outcome today.
SANCHEZ: But, look, I know we're putting you in a very difficult position. And I know you're trying to explain the policy to us. Let me just cut to the chase here.
Sir, why can't a man like Lieutenant Choi, who loves his country, has defended his country, and wants to continue defending his country, why shouldn't he be allowed to do that simply because he is gay? Why not?
MAGINNIS: Rick, you're asking me to justify an entire 200 years of what the U.S. Congress has directed the military.
SANCHEZ: So should we change it?
MAGINNIS: I see this as an analyst.
SANCHEZ: But should we -- do you believe as an analyst...
MAGINNIS: If in fact, Rick, you do your homework, as the secretary says he's going to -- and I trust the secretary will do this -- and it comes out and says, no problem, well, then, yes. However, if he does that work and it comes out differently, and the politicians muck it up, then that's a different issue, and we need to our congressmen accountable for what they do.
You know, that's why when you heard Mr. McCain say today, repeal by fiat, no. What the secretary ought to do is, with objective eyes, blind to, you know, the politics out there, go out and find out the facts, report the facts to Congress, and let them spin it and vote to it. That's what we ought to do.
SANCHEZ: Dan, to you.
CHOI: Well, I know we can go round and round in circles talking about policy and studies, but the bottom line is this -- and let me make this so absolutely clear. For me, this isn't about policies or strategies or how to implement, this is my career, this is my life, and my platoon and my job.
I want to serve in the military. I want to translate Arabic. You know, Bob and I and Rick, I know we all agree on one thing.
SANCHEZ: Right. CHOI: We want our military to succeed and to be strong. I just feel that by kicking out Arabic and Farsi linguists, by discriminating and forcing certain people to lie, it doesn't make our military stronger, it doesn't make our country stronger.
You can look at all the countries in the world if you want a blueprint who have repealed discrimination. Most of our NATO allies, Israel, all around the world, people are saying, how come America isn't ready to do this?
SANCHEZ: We mentioned that earlier, that 15 of the 28 NATO countries, in fact, have got along with what is...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: By the way, gentlemen, we are out of time. A good, respectful discussion. My thanks to both of you for sharing your perspectives on this. And hopefully we'll be able to do a follow-up and continue this.
CHOI: Thanks, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Dan Choi, appreciate it.
Robert Maginnis, my thanks to you as well.
Meanwhile, we'll come back in just a little bit. And guess what we've got coming up pretty soon on the other side? We're going to be telling you who makes the top of the list of "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: My colleague Wolf Blitzer is joining me now.
Wolf, we're getting a lot of hey out if this meeting the president's going to have tomorrow. We've been hearing him talk about and to Republicans. Tomorrow, we understand you are reporting, that he's going to be meeting with Democrats.
Where and to whom?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, there's no problem with the president meeting with Democrats, he meets with them all the time. But coming on the heels of last Friday's really extraordinary meeting with Republicans in Baltimore, House Republicans, it's going to be important to see what the venue is, if the TV cameras are allowed inside, how much grief, if any, he gets from some of those moderate Democrats or very liberal Democrats.
You know, we're going to watching all of this very closely. I don't know all the details, where, when and how much access we're going to get, but I think the pressure will be on the White House and the Democrats in Congress to at least have the same ground rules that all of us had when the president met with the Republican leadership in the House last week. SANCHEZ: We know what the president needs to get the Republicans on board with, because we hear that every day, but I bet it's discretionary spending, where he might get a little pushback from his own party.
Is that right?
BLITZER: Right. He's going to get pushback from the liberal wing of the Democratic Party and the moderate, or conservative wing, of the Democratic Party. That's in the nature.
Democrats have pretty wide-ranging views on a lot of these issues, all the way from the far left to maybe all the way to the right. So it's a very diverse caucus right now in the House and in the Senate. It's one of the reasons that health care reform still hasn't passed, even though the president has this very, very lopsided majority, his party in both the House and the Senate, but he doesn't have that 60 votes needed in the Senate to get it done, assuming no Republicans are going to be on board.
SANCHEZ: But the big problem is the budget. I mean, the budget can make this president look like a big spender, and nobody, especially a Democrat, wants to be labeled as such. Right? That's what he's going to have to be dealing with, with both parties and the American people.
BLITZER: Yes. He's got huge problems right now in terms of getting the economy going on the one hand, creating jobs, and that's going to cost money.
At the same time, this debt, the national debt, the annual budget deficit is skyrocketing. And that's another set of problems. And how do you balance the two and walk through these difficult economic times is not easy, by any means, especially when you have a bitterly divided Congress and an almost equally bitterly divided Democratic Party.
SANCHEZ: Well, you can't say he's not out there. He certainly has been showing up the last...
BLITZER: He's got a tough job.
SANCHEZ: Yes. He's been showing up the last couple of days, I'll tell you.
Wolf, it's always a pleasure having this conversation just prior to your show. And I should let the viewers know that you're coming up in just a little bit here, in about, oh, three or four minutes in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
Wolf, we'll see you then.
BLITZER: All right, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Up next, Groundhog Day. And just like the movie, someone has a return appearance, with "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On." The big reveal is coming up. And tomorrow, caught on camera. Police seen using a stun gun on a high school student during a basketball brawl. Were police too aggressive here?
We're going to break that down for you. That's tomorrow.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Abbreviated show means abbreviated list. Here's "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On."
First on the list is William Barnison (ph). This is his entry on the State of New York's Registry of Sexual Offenders. That's right, convicted and imprisoned for raping children, girls 7 years old, or younger -- his neighbors.
He's classified a level 3 offenders. That's the highest risk the state assigns. In other words, those are the worst likely to reoffend.
If that doesn't alarm you, then get this -- he's out of prison and is reportedly working as a building superintendent in New York City. Building superintendent?
Note to residents there -- this guy has the keep to your apartments. One woman who lives there tells reporters that Barnison (ph) offered her a deal, rent money or sex.
But here's number one on "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On," a return engagement by James O'Keefe.
He's out of jail for that alleged break-in at Senator Mary Landrieu's office in New Orleans. You know, the one where he says he and his buddies dressed up as repairmen and tried to somehow get access to the phone systems for reasons we don't know? Instead, he and his buds were busted and now face up to 10 years in prison for illegal entry into a federal building.
Speaking on Fox News last night, James O'Keefe says he's not a criminal, he's an investigative journalist. In fact, here's what he said.
"I still stand behind the fact that investigative journalists have been doing this for years. 'Dateline,' CBS, '60 Minutes," they built their careers on this. So that's the tradition I'm following in some sort of new-age journalism."
Let me get this straight. Morley Safer, Ed Bradley and Mike Wallace would dress up as a pimp or as a telephone repairman and would be willing to face federal criminal charges? Journalists we've spoken to are roundly appalled by that suggestion, which, by the way, went principally unchallenged by the Fox News interviewer.
New-age journalist James O'Keefe topping today's "List U Don't Want 2 Be On."
Mr. Blitzer comes now from New York.
