Return to Transcripts main page
Rick's List
Snow Slams South; Winter Olympic Athlete Dies; Jaycee Lee Dugard's Journals Released
Aired February 12, 2010 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Here's what is making the LIST right now.
Airport body scanners, an American Muslim group says they're ungodly. So, they won't be scanned?
And it's winter break in many parts of the country. Kids are out of school, but they can't go anywhere. More than 1,000 flights canceled. Roads are closed. We're in the pit, dedicating a CNN team to the info you need.
The lists you need to know about. Who's today's most intriguing person? Who's on the list you don't want to be on? You will find out as our national conversation on Twitter, on the air continues.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez.
A big part of the LIST right now is going to be about the weather.
And a sad part of the story is, just moments ago, we received news of the very first reported fatality as a result of this weather, just outside Montgomery, Alabama, where a mother was driving with two of her little girls. And she lost control of the vehicle, slammed into a pond. One of the little girls has died.
These are pictures of all the different areas that are going to be affected. And there's lots of them. You see there parts of Atlanta, parts of Montgomery, Alabama.
And what else are we seeing there, guys?
It's another shot of Atlanta on the other side. There are cars right now where the average speed trying to make it home, it doesn't -- it's not every day it snows in the South, right? There are cars right now that are going less than five miles an hour on these freeways. This is I-285 around Atlanta.
This is the loop near Dunwoody. And it's 4:01 right now, right, one minute after the hour of 4:00 on the East Coast. Rush hour really doesn't even start until 5:00, but I guess this is rush hour, because people are being let out early. Here's the danger here, by the way. And this is what Chad Myers was explaining to us just a little while ago. The danger here is -- and I'm talking to you if you're in Alabama, if you're parts of Georgia, if you're in parts of Louisiana, maybe some parts of Texas and Mississippi, parts of South Carolina.
The danger is that, as bad and difficult as it is to drive right now, it will be worse later, when the temperatures get lower and those -- that snow turns into ice. That's when it's going to get possibly a lot worse. So, as bad as it is now, it could be worse.
Let me just give you some numbers, if we possibly can. Record 12.5 inches, that's in Dallas over the last 24 hours. The system's gone through Alabama, parts of Georgia. The roads obviously are very, very affected. So are airports. That's Dulles Airport right there. That's in Dallas, I should say, Dallas/Fort Worth, right, VFW (sic)?
That's -- apparently, for the most part -- well, I don't see any planes moving there. They're saying they might start to be able to -- VFW -- I misspoke -- they might be able to move some planes in and out of there in a little bit, but, right now, it's probably very bad.
The Atlanta Hartsfield, where, as you know, people always say, even when you die, you will have to go through Atlanta. Well, today, you can't go through Atlanta, even if you're -- died, because guess what? Atlanta for the most part hardly has any flights in the air. I think something between 1,100 and 1,200 are canceled. And that is just Delta Air Lines.
You know, there are many other airlines that are flying out there that are canceling or moving their flights as well.
OK, a lot of information to take you through, a lot of news to get through.
Let's start right now by going to my colleague Don Lemon. He's in the pit following things for us. That is where everybody is getting as much information for you as we can, all the researchers here at CNN.
Don, take it away.
DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Rick, I got a bunch of new stuff for you.
I'm going to update, sadly, the death that we told you about just a short time ago. I also want to tell you, real quickly, we're working on something new here. I-75 in Atlanta (INAUDIBLE) we're hearing that there's been a bad accident. And our desk is working getting more information here.
Carin (ph) -- Carin is working to get more information. This is I- 285. But you know Atlanta. All the interstates are connected here, 75, 85, and you have the 285, the thing that loops around Atlanta.
And look at the traffic right here in this thing. You have it up on the side here. This is the same shot that we have up next to me. It is not moving. And you would think, oh, not a lot of snow. Well, we don't get a lot of snow here. We have been telling you about -- so we're working on that.
Rick, as soon as we get more information on I-75, that accident, we are going to give it to you.
SANCHEZ: Don? Hey, Don?
LEMON: Yes, sir.
SANCHEZ: I'm just going so interrupt you for just a moment.
LEMON: Yes.
SANCHEZ: I was told as well -- I told you the Delta numbers a little while ago.
LEMON: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Something like 1,100. we just now got verification, American Airlines just reached out to us.
LEMON: Yes.
SANCHEZ: They say they have now had to cancel 515 flights.
LEMON: Five hundred and fifteen today. Five hundred and fifteen today, and 33 AirTran.
SANCHEZ: Right.
LEMON: I had that bit of information. Just as you threw to me, Carin whispered that into my ear, 515 flights from American, 33 from AirTran, and then we have 1,100 from Delta today.
Before I get to Carin -- I mean, Carin, you just got off the phone, right, with the state trooper where we talked about this -- this family that was out on the road. And we're being told that it was a mom and two boys, a 2-year-old and a 4-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. Right. I just got off the phone with the state patrol. And, sadly, he told me that one of the boys did not make it. He was pronounced dead at the scene.
LEMON: The 4-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 4-year-old. The 2-year-old and his mother were both transported to a local hospital, where he believes the 2- year-old was pronounced dead. The mom, he is not sure if the mom was actually admitted.
LEMON: Yes. So, we're hearing -- you know we said one death earlier, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Wow.
LEMON: So, we may be -- there may be two deaths.
But I'm going to leave Carin here. We're going to work on some other stuff.
I want to go over to our Chad Myers here, go right here through the Weather Center in the CNN newsroom.
And Chad is going to -- hey, Chad, do you have a Google Earth where you could show us exactly where this accident took place? I'm going to -- as Chad is pulling that up, I'm going to tell you the accident...
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: I really tried to find Bullitt (ph) Road in the...
LEMON: Yes.
MYERS: ... Montgomery area, and I don't have it. So...
LEMON: It is Bullitt Road.
MYERS: Yes.
LEMON: It's Alabama State Route 110 near Bullitt Road.
MYERS: Yes.
LEMON: Three people in the car, mother and two children. We're hearing the 4-year-old has died, and possibly the 2-year-old has died as well. Waiting to get confirmation on the 2-year-old.
Chad Myers...
MYERS: And on the copy that I had, they're still trying to figure out whether weather was a factor or not...
LEMON: Yes. Yes.
MYERS: ... whether the roads were icy, whether they were just wet, whether the driver just kind of lost...
LEMON: Lost control...
MYERS: ... control.
LEMON: ... and went off into a pond.
(WEATHER UPDATE)
SANCHEZ: Meanwhile, we have just been handed some new information.
CNN is now able to confirm -- the Georgian Embassy in fact has confirmed to CNN that the luger we had told you about earlier -- his name is Nodar Kumaritashvili -- has passed on. He was 21 years old. Medics tried to perform CPR on him. While practicing one of his luge performances, he slipped off the actual ice, went off the rail, and hit against a pole that was not buffered, and, as a result, lost his life there, so the very first fatality. And, as you know, the opening ceremonies for the Winter Olympics in Vancouver, Canada, is tonight.
Here is what else we're going to follow for you. Until now, we could only imagine the horrors that Jaycee Dugard endured, kidnapped, held captive for years, impregnated by the man who allegedly took her.
Her journals have now been released, and they give us the very first glimpse, her story for the very first time of what her nightmare was like for 18 years. We will tell you why they were released. There's a legal reason for it.
Also, how is former President Clinton doing? Well, almost 24 hours ago, he was breaking news. Today, we have got a development.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We have been reporting to you over the last 35 minutes or so about the death of one of the Georgian luge performers who was going to be part of the opening ceremonies tonight at the Olympics in Vancouver, Canada.
It's confirmed now by us, again, that, in fact, he did lose his life while he was practicing today. We have actually looked at some of the video. It's pretty horrific to look at.
We want you to know that a lot of folks there at the Olympics are weighing in. And how this will affect the opening ceremonies tonight is still unknown, but we know there are plenty of heavy hearts.
Here's a tweet just a moment ago from Brad Spence. He's a Canadian Olympian. He says: "My thoughts and condolences go out to the family and friends of Georgian luger Nodar Kumaritashvili. What a tragedy."
No doubt we will be seeing a lot of sentiments like this explained, and, obviously, it will have some effect on the opening ceremonies tonight. We will continue to work that story for us, as you saw what -- that report we filed live from there, again, about 35 minutes ago.
Meanwhile, this is something else that we're following, because during our show yesterday is when the news broke -- you saw when we covered it -- about President Clinton. Here's where that story is right now.
All right, you see that motorcade right there, right? That's Mr. Clinton returning home to suburban New York after a night in a hospital in Manhattan. The president is OK. You know about his recurring heart trouble, two operations.
Well, this week, he suffered some chest discomfort. He had a clogged artery. I'm going to show you what they did. You have heard about stents, right, stents? Here's, basically, how they work. A balloon goes in. It pops the artery open and positions this stent in place, so things will be able to get through.
They put two of these in to keep that artery open in the case of the former president. The former president is 63 years old. He keeps a brutal schedule. He's been especially busy since the earthquake in Haiti, to which he's -- to which he's been appointed as a special U.N. envoy.
And here you see him in Haiti with CNN's Sanjay Gupta. And, this afternoon, Mr. Clinton has released a statement through his press secretary. It relates to the earthquake that hit Haiti a month ago. The former president says, people there are still in urgent need of all the basics. He adds that money from small donors is especially impressive, and $7 million has already been allocated to provide medical care, food, water, and shelter, and education.
We thought you would want to know.
Up next: It is a rare glimpse into the life of a kidnap victim. Jaycee Dugard's journal entries from her 18-year ordeal are finally made public. We're going to share some of them with you, and you will be able to hear what her perspective was while she was being kept by this captor behind bars, essentially.
Also, his family has always been very intriguing. Today, he's making the list solo for a decision that ends a winning streak most of us would envy. Who are we talking about? Stay with us. We will tell you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Do you remember Jaycee Dugard? It's a story we haven't touched on in quite some time, abducted at age 11, held in captivity in a couple's backyard for 18 years.
Well, you're not going to believe this. There's information on this that we hadn't heard before. Her diary entries from that time have just been released in court papers.
She actually felt sorry for her accused captor, Phillip Garrido.
I'm going to talk to our legal analyst, Lisa Bloom. She's coming up here in just a little bit, because this is a head-shaker.
But, Lisa, let's go through some of this together, so the audience gets a chance, the viewers get a chance to take some of this in, and then you and I will talk about it.
Let me start with this.
She wrote in 1993, when she was just a young girl, she said: "I got a cat for my birthday from Phil and Nancy" -- talking about Phillip Garrido. "They did something for me that no one else would do for me. They paid $200 just so I could have my own kitten."
This is a woman talking about her abductor.
Jaycee's lawyers say they don't wand the Garridos and their legal team having any contact with Jaycee.
Now, this is interesting. The reason that this information is being released, Lisa, is because Garrido's lawyers want access to this little girl. They're saying, we should have a right to interview her. We want to talk to her.
And the other side is saying, no, because he has -- he has such ownership over her. I mean, he has developed this -- this feeling over her where she actually almost talks about him as if he wasn't a bad guy. Yet, we all know what he did, right?
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's right. There's a lot of different factors going on here, Rick.
I have represented a lot of abused women and children. And especially in the case of children, they tend to identify with their captor, even feel sorry for their captor. And you can see in some of the excerpts, the one that you just showed, that she felt appreciative that they bought her a cat.
That was obviously very manipulative on their part to gain her love, to gain her trust. In other portions of the writing, she talks about yearning to be free. These are all very typical, understandable emotions from a child who is abducted.
Now, let me just talk to you about the motion briefly, because this is important. Of course, any criminal defense attorney wants a chance to interview the victim before trial to see what the victim is going to say.
SANCHEZ: Right.
BLOOM: But they don't necessarily have the right to do that. And under California's very strong victims' rights protections, Jaycee Dugard has said clearly through the prosecutor she wants nothing to do with Phillip Garrido.
That should be the end of the story. Yes, they have a right to subpoena her at trial, have her come and testify, cross-examine her at trial, but, pretrial, they have absolutely no right to talk to her once she's made that intent clear.
SANCHEZ: Well, here's the point. And I think most of us watching right now -- and, look, man, I have got to tell you, I have a daughter, so for me and for everyone else watching who's a parent, it's hard to almost tell the story objectively, what -- what...
BLOOM: Yes.
SANCHEZ: You take someone's kid. You lock them up for 18 years. You have sex with them repeatedly. You impregnate her twice. And here I am with a lawyer on CNN talking about his rights?
I -- you know...
BLOOM: Well... SANCHEZ: But, anyway, I digress.
She says in one of these journals how she felt bad for him, and she needed -- that he needed to understand, she writes, that, if she ever gets out, he would never -- she would never do anything to hurt him. She just wants a little space.
That's amazing. I mean, is this Stockholm syndrome at its -- at -- at its most classic point?
BLOOM: Yes, it's very sad, but it's typical behavior.
I mean, the only way that he could have kept her for those 18 years was by controlling her mind, because, of course, she could have escaped numerous times, if she had chosen to attempt it. Instead, she took on the burden of taking care of him.
She felt sorry for him. She didn't want to hurt him. And now we're learning today, Rick, that they had a plan, if the police ever came, that he was to contact her through her attorney. And that's apparently what he's tried to done -- to do.
And Jaycee Dugard -- I mean, it really speaks volumes about her -- since she's freed, has said, no, I want nothing to do with him.
So, while she may have been mentally captive to him all of those years, now that she's free, in her late 20s, she's making it very clear that she is free now, she is free at last, and she wants nothing to do with him. And the prosecutor is sticking up for her.
SANCHEZ: Mentally captive, that's an interesting -- that's interesting -- interesting word choice that you use there. He...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: She was mentally captive to him. And because she was a child, right -- how old was she when -- when he -- when he allegedly took her?
BLOOM: Eleven.
SANCHEZ: She was 11 years old. That's -- that's very plausible, right?
BLOOM: Absolutely.
As I say, I have represented many child sexual abuse victims, and this is very common.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
BLOOM: They go along with what's happening. We don't say they consented, because, of course, an 11-year-old can't consent.
We don't call it sex. We call it rape, because an 11-year-old can't consent. SANCHEZ: Exactly.
BLOOM: We say that she submitted in her later years. She didn't consent, because he had so much power and control over her.
I mean, literally, she believed her entire life rested upon pleasing him, so that's what she tried to do.
SANCHEZ: And, by the way, if I -- if I forgot to say it while we were talking about him -- it's almost difficult to say in cases like this -- everything we have discussed thus far are alleged allegations, based on how we allow people to be represented in our system of justice, although, in this case -- leave it at that.
Lisa, thanks so much for being here with us. Always a pleasure.
BLOOM: Thanks, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Up next: our most intriguing person. The last name won't surprise you, but his announcement just might.
Should you get a pass from some admittedly revealing airport security scans just because of your religion?
Well, you see that right there on the screen? Yes, those are those body scans that we have been talking about. There's a Muslim organization that's issued a fatwa against those body screens. And they say it's ungodly; we shouldn't have to go through that.
It's an interesting question, interesting legal question. We are going to look at it here in just a little bit.
In the meantime, as we go to break, we're following all the weather that's going on all over the country. This is Mobile, Alabama. When was the last time you saw this much snow in Mobile, Alabama?
Folks, those roofs you're seeing, they weren't painted white. That's snow.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: He's got one of those family names that's instantly recognized. His entire family tree is intriguing.
But, right now, I'm focusing on him. This is "Most Intriguing."
That name of his, it no doubt helped him get elected as a state representative when he was just 21 years old. And he has never lost an election since. He's 42 years old now, and he is dropping out of the political game. That's right. He's just decided enough is enough. He says this to the people of his state, Rhode Island -- quote -- "Having spent two decades in politics, my life is taking a new direction. I will not be a candidate for reelection this year." Oh, yes, back to the name. When he retires, the United States will see Congress without a Kennedy for the first time in 50 years. He is Patrick Kennedy, the baby boy of Teddy and Joan, soon to be former congressman, and definitely one of the today's most intriguing.
Still ahead, don't like what's on TV? Well, you could change the channel, or you could do this: Smash some sets. The story behind the destruction is coming up in just a little bit. Why did he do that?
And we're going to bring Chad Myers back in to let you know what's going on with the storm. These are some of the latest pictures going on right now.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: So, there's Chad. He's working. But, soon, he will be driving. And it will be about two to three miles an hour that he will be doing on the road on the way home.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: That's one of the roadways he might be on. We will tell you what's going on all over the South, in fact, all over the country, weather-wise, as we prepare for a big weekend.
Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
There is breaking news, and it's taking place in Afghanistan. We can now report that the offensive in Afghanistan has begun.
This is described as one of the largest offensives that we've seen in Afghanistan in eight years, essentially since the war started, something like 15,000 troops that are all going to be converging into one area. One of the reasons this is particularly significant is it's very possible that we'll be seeing some casualties results of this.
Fred Pleitgen is standing by right now in Afghanistan to bring us up to date on what's going on.
All right. Let's go through this a step at a time, Fred.
First of all, what is this operation? Who is involved. And what is its aim?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Rick. This operation is called Moshtarak, and we have now been cleared by the U.S. military in Helmand to report that this operation should now be under way. It essentially has been flagged by the U.S. military as being the largest offensive against the Taliban since the war began in 2001. And basically what they're trying to do is they're trying to clear the Taliban out of what they say is their largest urban stronghold that they still hold in Helmand province. This is a very, very important place because it's one of the most volatile regions in Afghanistan, and it's also home to large poppy- growing areas. And, of course, that is the way that the Taliban essentially make their money, which they then use to buy weapons to kill American soldiers here in Afghanistan.
So we have now been cleared by the U.S. military to report that this operation is under way. It is now -- let me just say this real quick. It is now 2:00 a.m. here in Afghanistan, so what you'll be seeing right now in that operation is a nightly assault on that town in Marjah, trying to win back that town from the Taliban -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: So is this infantry? Are we going in on the ground? Is it from the air? We've only got you for 20 seconds or so before we lose you, but give us what you've got.
PLEITGEN: Well, it's readily several inroads, Rick.
What's going to be happening is that some of these Marines are going to be air-assaulting into that area. Others are going to be going in on the ground.
One thing that the Marines have been showcasing time and again, before this offensive and others as well, is they have new vehicles called assault-breaching vehicles, which, what they do, essentially, is they plow through fields that are riddled with improvised explosive devices. Of course, one of the things that we've been saying leading up to this offensive is that it's been well publicized by the U.S. military. They have been saying they are going to come and take back this town of Marjah, and that of course has given the Taliban plenty of time to plant improvised explosive devices, landmines and other bombs in the ground there.
So, when these Marines move on foot, when they move on the ground forward, they are going to be leading the way with these assault- breaching vehicles to clear a path into that town to then establish a foothold in that area and take that town as fast as possible back away from the Taliban -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: Fred Pleitgen, great job bringing us up to date on that.
Once again, the news, for those of you who are just now joining us, the assault has indeed begun in Afghanistan. That means some 15,000 or so troops are going to be moving into one particular city in Helmand province.
We have on the phone now Mark Moyer. He is a security expert at Marine Corps University. And he's good enough to join us to bring us up to date on what his perspective is on this.
Professor, thanks so much for being with us, sir.
MARK MOYER, SECURITY EXPERT, MARINE CORPS UNIVERSITY: Hi Rick. Thanks for having me on.
SANCHEZ: How do you see this assault? It's being called the biggest in the last eight years.
Describe it to us. Describe how you would see this thing perhaps making a difference, something Americans would love to see in Afghanistan.
MOYER: Yes. Well, I think it is imperative that they go into Marjah. That's really the last sanctuary, area that the enemy has within Afghanistan.
And a sanctuary really gives the insurgents a lot of advantages, because they're doing things there that are much more difficult to do out if you're on the run. They have just set up several opium factories there. They have IED-making facilities, which, as you know, IEDs are the number one killer of American forces.
SANCHEZ: And again, just let me remind the viewers, this is in Marjah, right? And Marjah is in the Helmand province. Right?
MOYER: That's right, yes. And we've cleared most of the areas in Helmand, and this is their last holdout. A lot of the troops from elsewhere have moved there.
So this is really a momentous showdown. It's still up in the air as to how many of them are going to stay and fight and how many of them are going to try to escape. But we've now cordoned off the area, so there's clearly going to be some major fighting going on.
SANCHEZ: Our viewers are probably scratching their heads as we report this. In fairness to them, this has been a very long war. At times it has looked like it's not perhaps as strategically organized as it should have been. And many would wonder, oh, right, Professor. So which assault is this and how will it be different from the one that Rick Sanchez told me about a month ago, or a month before that, or a month before that?
Can you answer that for me?
MOYER: Yes. We've seen this same problem in Iraq before.
What you had was, early on, we did not have enough troops in Afghanistan, so we would take one area, the insurgents would go to another area, and then we would move there, then it became a what can a Whac-a-Mole game. We now, with the addition of troops, are going to be able to hold key areas at the same time and make things much harder for the insurgents. That's what we did in Iraq in 2007.
SANCHEZ: Professor, hold on, if you would, for just a moment. We've got Barbara Starr joining us now from the Pentagon. She's going to join in on this conversation. It will be the three of this discussing this. But let me get to Barbara so she can share with us both whatever new information she may be able to get for us.
Barbara, hello to you.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Rick. Well, I think as we have been reporting, the U.S. military now saying that the news media is cleared to report that this operation is under way. When you talk about what is different, how many times have we sat here and talked about a new offensive in Afghanistan?
SANCHEZ: Exactly.
STARR: You know, a new offensive in Helmand province. Commanders have been briefing the media behind the scenes for the last several days. They wanted the media to know about this. They wanted to get their talking points out.
Their major talking point? They will say what is different here is Afghan troops, Afghan security. That, for the first time, they have a sufficient number of Afghan forces fighting alongside the Americans and the British, that it will have a very Afghan military face on it, and that the Afghans will be able to move in with their government and their people and provide the security across Marjah that is so critical.
It will be Afghan security that will keep the Taliban at bay and help keep Afghan public opinion on the side of this operation. It remains to be seen if that really happens, if this shaky Afghan government can really pull it off, if they can really move in, provide security, provide the civilian side of this -- rebuilding, economic assistance, aid to the people, and, most especially, some kind of alternative crop to the farmers of this region so they don't succumb --
SANCHEZ: Hearts and minds.
STARR: -- to the Taliban and farm the -- right, farm the opium poppy, which is the cash crop here, which is the way these farmers stay alive. And it keeps the Taliban alive. So a lot of maybes here.
SANCHEZ: Let me let both of you address something real quick, because this is a question we always get when we report on tactical moves in a war, especially when it refers to U.S. Marines or any of our soldiers.
Look at this tweet that I just got moments ago. And this is a question that we'll get from a lot of viewers.
"Why do you guys divulge even that much about tactics and a strategy?"
Let's go to this one right here, if we possibly can.
See that one at the very top, BetoSando (ph)? "Why do you divulge all this information about tactics and strategy? Blue slips sink ships."
Clear up for the folks out there who think that we may be reporting something that the other side doesn't yet know what you know, either Professor or Barbara, either one of you that wants to chime in here.
MOYER: Well, I would say that -- go ahead, Barbara.
STARR: Well, let me just jump in for one minute, because what I can tell people is it came straight from General Stanley McChrystal that the U.S. military, the Pentagon, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs wanted this word to get out. This is an information -- what they call an information operation.
They have their messages, they have their talking points. They have been briefing the media for days. They wanted the media to know about this. They wanted the word to go out because so much in Afghanistan, Rick, is a propaganda war, if you will.
The Taliban use the Internet. They have their messages they get out, their videos.
The U.S. military has made a very key decision that it will partially fight this war online. They have been talking about this for days, and they want the information out. It is the young troops on the line, however --
SANCHEZ: So the information has been released -- right. The media is reporting this because the U.S. military has cleared the information to be reported by us.
And I bet, Professor -- I bet that whatever we're reporting is already under way in that city. We're not tipping anybody off, are we?
MOYER: That's right. And there was a lot of this debate over, well, should we have even let them know we're (INAUDIBLE). But the truth is, the Taliban has very strong intelligence sources, and they would have figured out that we were assembling troops there anyway. And they're very familiar with how we operate. So I don't think we've given anything away.
Another big part of why we divulged it ahead of time was that we wanted to clear things with the Afghans. And there was a big meeting yesterday between the Afghan interior minister and a lot of the leaders from the Marjah area, and the purpose of that was to explain to them what's happening, talk to them about how this was going to take place, get their input, because we were going to be depending on their cooperation going forward, some of those local leaders. And I think the hardest part of this is not the taking the city, but it's going to be holding on to it in the long term.
SANCHEZ: Professor, my thanks for you. My thanks for joining us and taking us through this.
Let me get back to Barbara.
Barbara, I know we've got a little satellite delay here, so I may have stepped on you at the very end there, and I want you to get a chance to say whatever you'd like to report to the viewers now.
STARR: Well, I just want to say I agree with everything the professor says. He is spot on.
Make no mistake, the Taliban know exactly what's going on. They are very strong down in this region. It is the young Marines, however, that you see on TV that, if you will, are going to bear any risk of this strategy. Here's the concern, Rick. While all of this buildup has been going on, what have the Taliban been up to? Have they laid IEDs, mines, roadside bombs, suicide bombers, ambushes? What have they really been up to in this region?
As these young Marines move through these farmlands across irrigation ditches, irrigation canals, past mud-walled compounds, they are going to be very concerned. They are under orders to protect Afghan civilians. If they take fire, they can defend themselves, but they must be extremely cautious about not firing back and possibly injuring civilians.
So, all of this is building up to be a potentially risky situation. The U.S. hopes that the Afghan civilians will not be harmed, that the Afghan civilians will come out and support all the troops. But it is those young Marines, the British troops, the Afghan troops walking the line that are going to be bearing a substantial risk in the coming hours.
SANCHEZ: I think we said that at the very beginning, and it underscores that threat, that they expect casualties. Exactly how many, we don't know at this point.
Barbara Starr, my thanks to you.
A story that we'll no doubt continue to stay on top of, and that is that the operation, Operation Moshtarak, has begun in Afghanistan.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(WEATHER REPORT)
SANCHEZ: All right. Seventeen million dollars in bonuses for the CEO of JPMorgan Chase. A $9 million bonus for the CEO of Goldman Sachs.
We've heard President Obama strike a populist tone in recent weeks, but listen to what he's saying in an interview. Here it is. This is from an interview in the new issue of "BusinessWeek."
He says, "I know these guys. They're very savvy businessmen. And I, like most of the American people, don't begrudge people success or wealth. That is part of the free market system."
And then he says, "While $17 million is an extraordinary amount of money, there are some baseball players who are making more than that and don't get to the World Series either. So I am shocked by that as well."
Huh?
I'll tell you, the president says that he wants shareholders to scrutinize bonuses and let that serve as a restraint. But is that enough for people on Main Street that are angry over these numbers?
Joining me now is the former labor secretary and now University of California Berkeley public policy professor, Robert Reich.
Also, by phone, Harvard University economist and professor Jeffrey Miron.
My thanks to both of you.
Let me start with this baseball thing. You know, I'm taken aback by that because I know this -- baseball players didn't almost cause a near depression for the United States of America.
So Bob Reich, I'm not sure that that analogy works. Does it for you?
ROBERT REICH, FMR. LABOR SECRETARY: Well, Rick, also, baseball did not get a $700 billion or $600 billion bailout from American taxpayers. And the free market was pretty much suspended for Wall Street last year. And so when --
SANCHEZ: We just lost Bob Reich.
Do we have Jeffrey Miron still on?
JEFFREY MIRON, HARVARD UNIVERSITY ECONOMIST: I'm here.
SANCHEZ: Let me pick up with Jeffrey Miron, and we'll get him back on.
Professor, I'm looking at this and I'm wondering -- you know, to the point that the other professor was just making, it's not just that the guys who are getting the bonuses may have caused in many ways the problems that we have, that put us in this economic situation, it's that they're playing with house money, my money.
Right?
MIRON: Well, that's all true. I think that saying they caused the situation is a big sort of oversimplification. They certainly played a role and they certainly benefited from all the good times that came until recently.
SANCHEZ: Well, what would you call credit default swaps?
MIRON: Those credit default swaps in and of themselves are totally sensible. It's just a form of insurance.
What was not sensible was the federal government basically telling Wall Street, don't worry about this stuff, we're going to bail you out if things go bad. And they didn't say that quite that explicitly, but they said it close to that explicitly.
So, if someone is telling you that, then of course you're going to take lots of risks. They were being, as President Obama said, savvy businessmen and taking advantage of the (INAUDIBLE) they expected from the government, and lo and behold they were right.
SANCHEZ: Do we have Bob back? We don't?
All right. Hopefully we'll get him back in just a little bit.
Why do you believe the president is kind of going both ways on this? And, you know, look, we're not trying to be overcritical of the president, we understand politics, most thinking people do. But is there a reason to believe that because he's been, in many ways -- let's call it what it is -- a beneficiary of many of Wall Street's campaign donations, that to a certain extent he's compromised here?
MIRON: No, I wouldn't say that. I actually think that he's sort of trying to have it both ways, because I think he and his advisers realize that at this point, beating up on the banks, having the government more involved with trying to make the banks (INAUDIBLE) is not the right place to be.
We want the banks to get completely uninvolved with running specific industries, and our big mistake was trying too much to promote housing and being involved with the banks earlier. And so, on the one hand, he's trying to assuage the populist rage. On the other hand, he realizes that most of what we would do to assuage the populist rage doesn't make sense. What we should have done was let the banks fail when we had the chance.
SANCHEZ: You do? You think they should have been allowed to fail, that we shouldn't have bailed them out?
MIRON: That's right. I think that's the right way to shrink executive compensation. Let them end up owning companies that are worthless.
SANCHEZ: Wow.
MIRON: That's the market discipline, but we didn't do that. And we need to get back to that kind of discipline, and using all this populist stuff is not getting us to the right place.
SANCHEZ: And by the way, that decision to bail them out was not President Obama's decision. He inherited a large part of that decision, right?
MIRON: He inherited it, in large part, although he did vote in favor of the bailout. And he did appoint Tim Geithner, who was the architect of the bailout, to be his treasury secretary. So I think he partially owns the bailout, but, no, it was not his idea originally.
SANCHEZ: Well, what do you say to Geithner and Paulson and these guys who were on the record just a week and a half ago on our air saying that if we hadn't done what you say we should not have done, this country would have seen 25 percent unemployment and we would have been in a depression?
MIRON: I think that they're wrong, but I think that both sides of this debate have to agree that we have precious little evidence that allows us to be absolutely definitive on either side. We have very few cases where we had this many banks at risk of failing. And we don't have great precedent to look at.
But I think --
SANCHEZ: That's interesting.
MIRON: --- that if you think through all of the arguments, the consequences would have been much more short term and much less dire than the administration -- the Bush administration and Bernanke made it out to be.
SANCHEZ: All right. Professor Jeffrey Miron, my thanks to you for joining us. I could have talked to you about this, and I had another 30 questions, but we'll get you back on and we'll go through these.
And our apologies to former labor Secretary Reich for that breakdown in the satellite there. We'll try and get him back as well.
Meanwhile, this question -- a fatwa against airport security scanners, a particular Muslim organization is saying they're ungodly. Think about this for a moment during the next minute and a half, and we're going to come back and talk to several people about it, including the guy who's putting on his microphone right here, right next to me.
Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
In the wake of the attempted bombing of a Northwest Airlines jet over Detroit on Christmas Day, there has been a rush to find better ways to catch passengers that are carrying explosives. An organization has issued a fatwa -- think about this -- a religious ruling saying that the body scanners violate Islamic teachings.
They wrote it this week, "It is a violation of clear Islamic teachings that men or women be seen naked by other men and women." The group says it fully supports the necessary measures for the safety and protection of all passengers, but they want the scanners to produce less-detailed images.
Can you even do this?
We're joined now in Phoenix by Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, and by security expert Mike Brooks, here with me in Atlanta.
Mr. Awad, let me start with you.
What is it that you think these folks want? What do they want that would even be different? How could this even be done?
NIHAD AWAD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS: Well, Rick, first of all, it is not a fatwa, because "fatwa" is becoming like a stereotypical notion about something negative. This is a mainstream body, very well respected in American, and issued a mainstream position on the issue of modesty. So they're concerned about preserving the use of -- SANCHEZ: OK. I get it. I get it. I get it.
But what do they want? What do they want? What do they believe could be done for them that's different than what would be done for other people who are going through the airport?
AWAD: I think they're not asking for anything that other organizations have not. For example, other civil rights organizations and privacy organizations are concerned about the use of naked images of people, ,or passengers, because, A, of privacy, B, it could be misused or abused if it's saved and used for other purposes.
MIKE BROOKS, SECURITY ANALYST: But it's not going to be saved and used for other purposes. It's going to be not there at the checkpoint. It's going to be in a separate room at the airport by two people who are not even going to look at faces.
They're looking for weapons. They're looking for explosives, improvised explosive devices. That's all they're going to do.
And it's not going to be captured anywhere. I mean, sure, civil libertarians will holler and scream about anything, but this is for the protection of the American people and anyone else who's flying on aircraft no matter what country they're from.
SANCHEZ: Give him a chance to respond though, Mike.
Go ahead.
AWAD: Including all of us. Today, I traveled -- I came from to Washington, D.C. to Phoenix, and of course I'm very concerned about my safety and the safety of other passengers. But what this body suggested is the alteration of software that only identifies the foreign objects or material attached to the human body.
SANCHEZ: OK. I like that. Can it be done?
But, you know, it's one thing to talk about, I'd like a million dollars, too. Can you do the test --
BROOKS: How long is it going to take? Is it going to be a quick fix, or is it going to take a number of years later?
SANCHEZ: But can you do the test without seeing a person's privates, for example? Let's just be straight.
BROOKS: It basically looks like your -- the outline of the body looks almost like a chalk mark.
SANCHEZ: But technologically speaking --
BROOKS: I'm not the scientist who developed this. You know, right now --
SANCHEZ: As far as you know, no?
BROOKS: As far as -- I don't know. I don't what other things can be done.
SANCHEZ: But, Mr. Awad, doesn't it just come down to basic understanding that at some points in our society we just have to trust certain things? Don't you trust your doctor when you go to the doctor to get a physical? Don't you have to undress?
AWAD: Yes. Again, even that opinion that was issued by this body talks about exceptions through necessity. So it is a reasonable approach. But my point earlier, that software is doable, that technology can be modified, again, to strike a balance between preserving the privacy of people and, at the same time, protecting the traveling public from any imminent threat.
BROOKS: And there are alternative measures, too -- physical pat-downs --
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Yes. But then that slows the system down and that's not --
BROOKS: Exactly.
SANCHEZ: Mr. Awad, you've been wonderful at explaining your point of view, sir. My thanks for coming on and taking us through that.
Mike, as usual, thanks for being with us as well.
BROOKS: Thank you, Rick.
SANCHEZ: We're a little rushed because of all the breaking news.
BROOKS: Yes, I understand.
SANCHEZ: And as we go out, we have got some interesting scenes coming out of Haiti. This is Haiti. I'll let you hear it for a couple of seconds, and then we'll go right into "THE SITUATION ROOM."
