Return to Transcripts main page
Rick's List
Special Report: Attack In Austin; IAEA Suspects Iran Working on Nuclear Warhead; Jailed Missionaries Return Home From Haiti With Message
Aired February 18, 2010 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And welcome back, everyone. I'm Rick Sanchez. We will be taking you through a bevy of stories that have been taking place.
In case you haven't heard the big story that's coming out of Iran right now, it looks like, and has CNN confirmed, that nuclear officials are saying that it appears that Iran may be trying, in fact, to use -- and let me make sure I use the right words -- may be working on secretly developing a nuclear warhead for a missile.
Let me be -- let's -- I will give that to you again. Iran may currently be working on secretly developing a nuclear warhead for a missile. That's what the IAEA director general is saying. And we have been continuing to follow up on that report, and we will do so some more coming up here at 4:00.
The other big story is Haiti. Those eight missionaries have arrived back in the United States, and now have traveled from Miami to Kansas city. Their lawyer has been speaking for them. Their message is quite clear, but not directly from them. And we are going let you hear what they had to say.
And, of course, the big story is this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): This is a RICK'S LIST special report: "Attack in Austin."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yelling, look at that plane, look at that plane.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw something fall out of the sky and then a big fireball kind of shoot out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The building shook. And then the roof came in. And it felt like stuff fell on top of us, all kinds of stuff fell on top of us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just saw a big plane.
SANCHEZ: An intentional attack on a government building. Who is this pilot? Why did he do it?
This is a RICK'S LIST special report, "Attack in Austin" starts right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And what a story this has been, folks.
Brooke Baldwin is joining me to take you through some of this as it developed.
But, first, we got the reports of this fire that was taking place in a building in Austin. Let's go to those pictures, if we can, Roger. I want to take the viewers through what happened. And, really, it came in waves or steps.
Firs, there was the information that there was a fire in this building. And then there was information that it may have been a plane that actually went into the building.
As we looked and the story involved, we started to realize, how could plane hit a building right smack dab in the middle? We have heard in the past where planes have clipped buildings, but to actually hit right smack dab in the middle, it almost looks like it was intentional.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right.
And federal officials really helped connect the dots for us. So, we have been reporting through the day that, not only do we have this story, which is the pictures we are looking at, this fiery explosion at this building in Northwest Austin; you also have a home that was, according to these officials, intentionally set on fire in Austin.
We are not sure as to the relationship between Joe Stack and the individuals, at least at my last check, the woman and younger the girl that was found in that home.
SANCHEZ: No, but the -- but the bottom line is, it does appear that Joe Stack did --
BALDWIN: There was a connection between -- he --
SANCHEZ: The man who put the plane into the building is the same man who starred the fire in that house.
BALDWIN: At that house.
SANCHEZ: Right. And that's --
BALDWIN: Correct.
SANCHEZ: Now, there's also questions as to not -- whether there were children or a woman in the house at the time --
BALDWIN: And the relations, right.
SANCHEZ: -- and whether they were able to get out. But, beyond that now, and, as you know, and as Lou Palumbo, our guest, knows who is about to join me, he also left behind a suicide letter. And the suicide letter is right here in my hands. We were the first to report it after we found it in a Web site that was administered by him.
Lou, as I read the letter, it is obviously -- it is obvious that he had problems with the government. And he had problems specifically with the IRS.
What does it say to you, as a law enforcement officer, when someone sits down and writes something this -- let me who you -- Robert, show this to the viewers, if we can.
I got a bad angle. Hold on. Let me try this side. Look at this.
BALDWIN: Five pages.
SANCHEZ: Six.
BALDWIN: Six pages.
SANCHEZ: Six -- well, if you count the last one. I mean -- and he says in there, "This is going to be hard for me to write because -- it is not very artfully written, but it is very thorough. You give him that.
Lou, to you.
LOU PALUMBO, FORMER NEW YORK POLICE OFFICER: Well, obviously, a cause for great concern. I mean, he went through a pretty extensive exercise in constructing that letter, and was pretty well explained in how he felt.
Whether or not his feelings were valid or accurate or true, I wouldn't say is irrelevant at this point, but, obviously, he -- he had some issues which were directed towards many people.
I think -- I think the -- Rick, you know they say there's no such thing as single causality. If you read this letter, you know, he strikes out at -- at a number of entities involved in our government, a president, his wife. I just think this guy was just waiting to explode.
And --
SANCHEZ: Yes, but the central core -- the central theme of his argument seems to be the IRS. I mean, he's upset with the IRS. He feels like he has been cheated. He feels like they have changed the laws, specifically back in 1984, that 1906 statute or section of the Tax Reform Act of 1984, he said cheated him out of money, as it did many other Americans.
This guy had a cause. This guy was angry at one particular group, and he was going to get back at them. And it just so happens that that building that he smashed the plane into had 190 IRS workers in it. Pretty direct, isn't it?
PALUMBO: Yes, I would say so. I think he was making the ultimate statement.
He was prepared to make a statement, at the expense of his life. And I think a little bit about what we were seeing at -- in this incident was he was kind of cleaning house. Obviously, there was some domestic strain, which is evidenced by the fact that was burnt -- burnt his home.
And, then, while on this warpath, so to speak, he directed a lot of his anxiety and frustration and his malcontent towards the Internal Revenue Service.
The thing I would like to speak to, just for one brief moment --
SANCHEZ: Please.
PALUMBO: -- we brought up the significance of velocity. and this aircraft and striking the building.
And it is kind of interesting. One gentleman's observation was that the plane flew in at what he considered to be an excessive rate of speed. The -- that impact that would have with the projectile -- and that's exactly what this plane represented at this crossroad -- it wasn't an instrument of air travel. It became a projectile, much the same way you would in discharging a firearm.
The faster you move a projectile doesn't always, how would you say, correlate to penetration. If this guy was smart enough to realize that the mass of that plane at a slower speed would have translated to greater penetration in the building, he probably would have caused more damage.
And the other significant point to bring out is the exact point of impact. For example, if he struck this building in an area where there was an I-beam as part of its construction, it obviously helped slow down the penetration factor, and the penetration factor here would have probably caused significant amount more damage to the building and probably translating to greater loss of life.
SANCHEZ: Well, let me ask you something, Lou, before I let you go.
Roger, put up those pictures of the damage of the building, the damaged building, once again. I heard Doug (sic) Feith say to us, in fact, all three of you, me and him and Brooke as well, when we were having this conversation, that, given his experience as an investigator of crashes, it looked to him like there had to be something other -- that there was possibly something other than just the 40 gallons of fuel on that plane. This is a massive fire and it really has destroyed a large portion of this building.
As an investigator, what's your take on this?
PALUMBO: You know, I would have to support, you know, Greg's, how would you say, perception of -- of a possible scenario.
If you look at the extent or the spread of the fire throughout this, you know, it is very likely that he not only had the fuselage full, but he may have had additional igniters on the aircraft as well.
You know, and, again, at this point, it is conjecture, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Right. No, I understand. I understand.
PALUMBO: And this is going to ultimately be determined.
Yes, but I think --
SANCHEZ: Yes.
PALUMBO: I think it is highly probable. I think this guy probably went through an extensive plan here, rather than just to randomly fly a plane into the side of the building. I think he had a purpose in doing it.
I think he wanted as much bang for the buck. I think he wanted to cause as much damage and loss of life directed towards IRS as possibly he could.
SANCHEZ: One final --
PALUMBO: And I think that's a very plausible --
SANCHEZ: One question before we let you go. I -- I -- you are certainly welcome to stick around. I'm curious, for my family, for my fellow citizens, how easy it is to do something like this without getting caught.
Are there -- are there enough safeguards out there to stop a guy from getting on a plane, helicopter, anything that flies, and -- and flying it into a building?
PALUMBO: You know, interestingly enough, Rick, part of what my -- my business lends itself to is threat assessment.
And we make these assessments or evaluations based on our client base, which deals with the entertainment industry, corporate America, and even government. You know, we have a -- a leg up, in a sense that people who are not of sound mind have this propensity to have dialogue in -- in different forms with our protectees.
And that enables us, in essence, to, how would you say, intercept an act of aggression towards them.
SANCHEZ: Right.
PALUMBO: You know, if you look at this instance, Rick, and even this one with this professor in Alabama, she had far more telltale signs of volatility and potential threat and danger that -- than this individual did. He constructed a letter. She was involved in assaults in restaurants, a focal point of an investigation involving a family member. It went on and on --
SANCHEZ: So -- so, maybe we are not --
PALUMBO: -- and we still didn't connect the dots.
SANCHEZ: So, maybe we are not so good at connecting these dots, as a society, never mind law enforcement.
PALUMBO: Well, the thing is, quite frankly, I mean, it's -- I would say, to be fair to law enforcement and to our culture, I think it is almost impossible to connect these dots.
You would have to form an agency, just trying to monitor correspondence and people's behavior. And I just think it's -- it is a little bit of a stretch.
SANCHEZ: I will tell you, maybe the only place there are still communities left where people talk to each other every day is social media, on Twitter, on Facebook, on MySpace. That's where people actually share their convictions and their thoughts with others.
Maybe, as we move forward, law enforcement will find a way to use that to check on certain individuals. It might not be a bad idea, respecting, of course, the right to privacy. Let me add that, before I get yelled at by somebody.
Lou Palumbo, thanks, my friend.
We are going to be right back with more, including some of what you will see here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Look at these pictures.
This is some of the situation that was going on earlier today there in Austin. I wasn't quite sure if we were going to be hearing from Shannon Piehl.
Do we hear, Angenette (ph), Shannon Piehl's voice here? No, we don't, huh? OK.
So, I guess these are the very first pictures that were taken by Shannon Piehl just as the accident occurred. That's that federal building there, or the building that houses so many federal offices there, outside of Austin. And you can see the fire is just now beginning.
It was an alarming situation there in Austin just as it happened. Immediately, they cleared the streets. And a lot of other things happened after that. In fact, there were two jets that were put up by the U.S. military just in case, in fact, this was declared as some kind of act of terrorism. There will be more that we will discuss about that.
But what it turns out to be, as you probably know by now, is a man who chose to burn his own home and then drive his -- fly his plane, I should say, into this building, because he had a -- a -- a problem with the IRS. So, he flew his plane into a building that had 190 IRS workers there.
One person unaccounted for, two persons taken to the hospital, and it' a story that we're going to be staying on top of.
But the other big story that we are following for you right now is coming out of Iran, where there seems to be information about Iran perhaps trying to develop a nuclear warhead for a missile. This is according to the IAEA, saying Iran may currently be working on secretly developing a nuclear warhead for a missile.
Those are important words.
Let's go to Matthew Chance. He's following the story for us from there.
Matthew, what do you know?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is the latest report, Rick, that has been issued by the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog agency, the IAEA. And it's the strongest-worded warning yet about the nature of Iran's current nuclear work.
I think we have to be clear. It doesn't cite a specific bit of evidence showing that Iran is developing nuclear weapons. There is no smoking gun, as it were. But it does cite a whole load of -- of -- of things that it says basically raise concerns that it is developing some kind of -- of missile technology.
And -- and what it is looking at is the current activities now, the fact that Iran has decided to enrich uranium further to 20 percent, the -- the fact that it has failed to answer questions about the nature of the past activities into the nuclear program, and the fact it has refused to give IAEA inspectors the kind of immediate access to the nuclear sites in Iran that it wants -- all this leading the new director general of the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog agency to conclude that there are concerns about the -- the current activities of the Islamic Republic, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Is it possible that, because there is a new director general in this agency, that we are seeing more of a hard-line position, maybe more scrutiny of Iran that we saw before?
CHANCE: Yes, I think that's certainly a possibility. This is the first report by Yukiya Amano, who is the new director general, succeeding Mohamed ElBaradei, of course.
And he does appear to be adopting a much more hard-line tack when it comes to Iran. Having said that, the Iranians have been showing that the kind of pattern of defiance, as well, that, in the last few months, since Mr. Amano took over, they have taken this step of enriching uranium, against the U.N. Security Council resolution, to the point of 20 percent.
They have -- they have done various other things as well. And -- and, so, I think it's -- it is almost inevitable that the IAEA should be much harder now on its interpretation of what's going on inside Iran. But we will see what the futures reports hold, Rick.
SANCHEZ: And that 20 percent seems to be the -- seems to be the magic number that everyone seems to be talking about in this case, the difference between enriching uranium for energy use or enriching uranium perhaps to use as a weapon.
Matthew Chance, my thanks to you for coming on board and taking us through this important story that we are following right now.
Brooke Baldwin joins me to you to bring us up to date on the story coming out of Austin.
BALDWIN: Right.
SANCHEZ: I guess, you know, the question is, who was Joseph Andrew Stack? I mean, who was this man?
BALDWIN: He's someone who clearly, after reading the suicide note, all six pages, you saw he has longstanding grievances with the federal government, specifically the IRS, because we see the pictures.
He crashed his plane into that building with the IRS offices. We just got in a statement from the IRS. I want to read it to you right now. This is from -- coming from the IRS commissioner.
This is Doug Shulman, writing in: "Like most Americans, I'm shocked by the tragic events that took place in Austin this morning. This incident is of deep concern to me. We are working with law enforcement agencies to fully investigate the events that led up to this plane crash. My thoughts and prayers go out to the dedicated employees of the IRS who work in that Austin building. We will immediately begin doing whatever we can to help them during this difficult time."
One last line I want to read: "While this appears to be an isolated incident, the safety of our employees is my highest priority. We will continue to do whatever is needed to ensure our employees are safe."
We read a couple of the lines from that suicide note from this 53- year-old. And he very clearly says in this note, "While very few working people would say they have not had their fair share of taxes, as can I."
A lot of reference --
SANCHEZ: But hold on. Hold on. This is what I think is really interesting. And we have been getting a lot of tweets and a lot of information about this. And many of you at home have been chiming in on this.
Stay with me here for a minute. I'm going to read to you part of the letter that he wrote, because this is salient to something we are going to have coming up here in just a little bit.
Are you ready? Let me get this thing out. Let me put on my glasses to make sure I don't screw it up, first of all.
BALDWIN: The Tax Reform Act of 1984, is that where you're going?
SANCHEZ: 1986. It's actually section 1706.
He writes: "I return to the early '80s, and here I was off to a terrifying start as a 'wet-behind-the-ears' contract software engineer. And, two years later, thanks to the fine backroom midnight effort by the sleazy executives of Arthur Andersen, we saw the passage of 1986 Tax Reform Act with its section 1706."
BALDWIN: Mm-hmm.
SANCHEZ: Now, this seems to be the bug up his craw. This seemed to be the problem that he was really having.
So, we have been attempting to find out, because we have heard from a lot of folks out there about this act -- and there's a lot of Americans who actually think it was an unfair act back by the IRS. So, we have gotten a hold of an expert. And he's going to be taking us through this to explain the anger that some Americans have about that particular act and some of the things that go on with the IRS. It might be a good day to do it. So, we will -- we will -- we will attempt do that for you.
In the meantime --
BALDWIN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: -- as we go to break, let's do this. Let me show you what happened just as this accident took place in Austin in one of the original reports with what people were saying. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY CULLEN, EYEWITNESS: Then the windows began to fly out of the building. There must have been a lot of shock inside, a shockwave.
The windows flew out. And there's pink insulation pads flying all around. Imagine this. Then the venetian blinds start to wave out. They go out with the shockwave. Then the fire started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back to the LIST. I'm Rick Sanchez.
This has no doubt been the story of the day. And we have been following it for you. And, as soon as I saw it, interestingly enough, the very first person I dialed on the phone and reached out to was Tom Fuentes, former FBI, who is good enough to join us now from our Washington bureau.
And, at the time, Tom, it is interesting, because the very first thing I said to you was, Tom, my gut tells me that this thing is intentional. This is no accident. And the fact that there were government workers housed in that building tells me that they may have been targeted.
Turns out that it is pretty much the case, isn't it?
TOM FUENTES, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, it is.
SANCHEZ: That's interesting, the way this thing has worked out.
Now, I'm -- I'm wondering, Tom, what kind of conversations are going back and forth today between FBI guys and other government agencies as to what they are going to do as a result of this attack or what they do to get more information on what this guy was doing?
FUENTES: Right.
SANCHEZ: And maybe the most important question of all, Tom, is whether he was working alone.
FUENTES: That's always the key question in any act, whether it is a major crime or terrorist attack.
The conversations occurring, the special agent in charge of the FBI's San Antonio division, the leaders in the sub-office out of the Austin resident agency, the chief of police of Austin would all be having discussions, because each agency has jurisdiction. The -- this is a violation of Texas law, attempting to kill citizens, attempted murder.
It is a death investigation, his own death, the pilot's death. It is also a federal violation to attempt to kill IRS employees or other federal government employees like that. And, in this situation, with the manifesto that he left on the Web page, if, in fact, this was ideologically or politically motivated to make a statement in committing this act, then it is domestic terrorism. So, you have --
SANCHEZ: You know, it's --
(CROSSTALK)
FUENTES: -- all -- all of the above.
SANCHEZ: Well, it is interesting that you would say that, because, you know, we here at CNN are shying away from using the terrorism word in this case, because, right now, it does appear to be the actions of one lone man with a serious grudge against one agency.
And at what point -- let me ask you, at what point do you bring that word into a discussion like this? Let's suppose, instead of being the IRS, it was a man who was angry at his homeowner's association, or, you know, a city official somewhere, and then he went after him. Is that terrorism as well? FUENTES: No. If the act is motivated to make a political statement, out of ideology, or a religious statement, then that separates it from just a routine crime -- if murder is a routine crime.
SANCHEZ: Well, Lou Palumbo --
FUENTES: So, it is the intention of the individual. And, in this case -- normally, you may not know that intention. You have a person who is dead, and you wonder why he did it.
But, given that it appears he left a major note on his computer saying why he did it, and that he was motivated to make an attack on IRS, that does make it domestic terrorism.
SANCHEZ: Well --
(CROSSTALK)
FUENTES: It doesn't have to be major conspiracy to be terrorism.
SANCHEZ: Well, my goodness, let me read you the last part of his letter once again.
Let me see if I can find it here, Brooke. Yes, here it is.
I'm going to read you the last part of his letter. You tell me if he wasn't targeting a specific -- a specific group for political purposes.
"Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let's try something different. Take my pound of flesh and sleep well."
That's how he ends his letter, his -- I guess his suicide note. And that seems to be written by him, because it came from his Web site. And, when I called it, it was -- it looked to be that he was answering the phones there, although, obviously, it was a recording.
Lou Palumbo, chime in here.
Given what we know, does this look to you like something that the law enforcement officials will look at as a potential act of terrorism, domestic terrorism?
PALUMBO: Yes. Yes. Ultimately, you know, the FBI, which is cutting edge of the investigations and law enforcement in our country, they will come to a determination that this was, in fact, a form of domestic terrorism.
I think all that the indicators are there, based on the language included in that letter. I don't think there's any equivocating what his intent was, who he focused it towards, and his level of disdain to the extent of being prepared to sacrifice his own life.
SANCHEZ: Well, it sounds like what you guys are saying is -- and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like, Tom Fuentes, what you guys are saying is, if everything in that letter is true, and if everything that we know right now is true, and he intentionally flew his plane into a certain part of that building where he knew there were 190 workers or so who were government workers with the IRS, and he had a political beef with the IRS, then you guys would probably end up filing a report that we will talk about a month from now saying this was domestic terrorism in the FBI, right?
FUENTES: Right. That's true, Rick.
And I would like to add another cautionary note here, which I'm sure the commissioner of IRS is very concerned about. And that is, how many other people in this country are having difficulties with IRS audits or other investigations who may also be motivated to be copycat killers?
Now, there is a commercial. It airs on television it seems 100 times a day that says -- and it's from a company that will help you if you have a problem with the IRS. But, in the commercial, the spokesperson says, the IRS will get you.
Well, how many people hear that, and maybe that's going to drive them over the edge? Those are pretty inflammatory words just to drum up business.
SANCHEZ: Careful with what words you use when you are talking to large swathes of the American public, especially when we happen to be going through one of the -- the deepest recessions that we have experienced in quite some time, I suppose. And that's a point that you are trying to make, a good point, as a matter of fact. And I think most would agree.
Let's take a little break and let you know, as we go to break, I will be right back with both of these gentlemen and more information on this story, breaking news going on, not just in Iran, as I told you about earlier, but the situation in Austin is still developing.
Here's some tape from earlier today. Watch this as we go to break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- nothing I have ever seen here in Austin, Texas, before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our Matt Flener live on the scene there.
And you can see that brown dirt, that's where that retaining wall is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And -- and, unfortunately, Chris (ph), or whoever is back in the studio right now, I can't hear you, unfortunately.
But we do see lots of firefighters out here. The -- the highways are still open. Now, we can see people coming off of the entrance ramp from 183. They are going north on 183. Traffic south on 183 is still open.
Obviously, this would be a huge mess up here if they closed these highways. The highways are still open. But, wow, what a scene up here, really, lots of law enforcement personnel. We have probably seen in the upwards of 80 to 90 law enforcement personnel up here today.
We see lots of people standing around, milling around, as well, trying to figure out what exactly happened. Presumably, these -- these were people -- Mark (ph), you can see some of these people that are -- are here.
If you take a -- take a picture all the way over there across the highway, you can still see people that are outside. They have marked the area off with --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
We're about to bring you a development on this attack in Austin from a congressman who's just called in to our show. Let me set the scene for you.
I'm here with -- Brooke Baldwin is going to be joining me in trying to get information on this story. There you see the pictures of the plane that crashed into the building, for those of you who may just now be coming home from work.
Lou Palumbo is one of our law enforcement contributors who joins us to talk about what's going on with stories like this, as is Tom Fuentes, who's former FBI.
Gentlemen, stand by. We've got a congressman on the line who just called in to us.
This is Congressman Mike McCaul. He's Republican from Texas who's also -- and this is important -- a member of the Homeland Security Commission. He understands that they have now been briefed, and he's willing to share some of that information with you us.
Congressman, are you there, sir?
REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R), TEXAS: Yes, I'm here.
SANCHEZ: Tell us what you know.
MCCAUL: Well, we're getting ready to walk into a command post briefing, and we'll have another press conference before. But I'll tell you that the amount of damage done by one of the smallest private aircraft is really extraordinary. It almost brought down this entire building.
We know that the perpetrator of this had a vendetta against the IRS, wrote a suicide note, as you know, and talked about his grievances. Literally blew his house up before he left to go to the Georgetown Airport before he intentionally and deliberately flew the airplane into a federal building.
SANCHEZ: What does that tell us, sir? Does that tell us that this is going to be looked at by you and your committee as a potential act of domestic terrorism against an agency of the United States government?
PALUMBO: Well, I mean, it clearly was an attack against an agency of the federal government.
SANCHEZ: But is it terrorism? But is it domestic terrorism?
PALUMBO: Well, there's been no (INAUDIBLE) the police chief, FBI -- and there's no link to terrorism. You know, how you define an act of terrorism? I think anybody flying an airplane into a small building is -- you could define that as an act of terrorism. And it's amazing to me that we don't experience greater loss of life and injury out at the scene when you look at the damage this very, very small aircraft did.
SANCHEZ: As a member of the Homeland Security Committee, are you concerned about copycats? Are you concerned that maybe we have just found a new vulnerability where we could be attacked either by terrorists, domestic or foreign?
MCCAUL: Yes, I am concerned. It's a vulnerability we have been, you know, looking at for a while. My concern is a terrorist using the same -- being a copycat, using the same sort of method, could easily take a larger aircraft and fly it into the Capitol or the White House. This is a very, very serious concern.
SANCHEZ: Yes, I imagine it is. It sounds like something that should concern all of us.
But what can your committee do? And are you going to ask that very question, be taken up in committee today, and will you get back to us to let us know --
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAUL: Yes. Clearly, it's an issue that's going to come up. We'll be talking to general aviation about the issue. And, you know, even if we had screening at the private airport, it wouldn't have prevented this individual from getting in a plane and flying it into a building.
SANCHEZ: In fact, as I understand it, sir, he didn't even file a flight plan.
MCCAUL: Yes, that's correct. He did not. And he deviated -- literally, he bounced -- the plane bounced off a car and then hit the first floor of the IRS building. And there were about 100 gallons of gasoline that went throughout the building. That's why you see such widespread devastation.
SANCHEZ: Do you think he used an accelerant or something other than just the 40 gallons of oil -- pardon me, fuel -- that were on the plane? MCCAUL: Well, those planes can carry 40 gallons on each side, so it was about 80 gallons. The reports I've obtained are that it was gasoline. Now, a larger aircraft would have jet fuel, which would be even more damaging because it's more difficult to put out.
SANCHEZ: So, no question, you are on the record saying that your committee will begin having discussions about this particular act and the vulnerability of other acts like this, and you are going to come up with something, I suppose, to protect us, right?
MCCAUL: Well, that's within the jurisdiction of the committee. And of course that's absolutely what the committee will be doing. I'll be talking to Ranking Member McCain and (INAUDIBLE), and think it's an issue that needs to be addressed.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
Republican Congressman Michael McCaul of Texas.
My thanks to you, sir, for calling in and helping us out and giving us this information. Good luck. Please get back to us. If not, we'll be reaching out to you.
MCCAUL: Well, thank you. I appreciate it.
SANCHEZ: Gentlemen, what did you think of that? Lou, Tom? Is he on the money?
LOU PALUMBO, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: You know, I think his concerns are pretty genuine. I mean, if this was easy to carry out an act directed against one building, if someone got clever or creative, why wouldn't they do this with the White House or possibly the Capitol? And the next thing we have to discuss is, how you are going to install, or what mechanism will you put into play that will basically intercept anybody violating the air space of our Capitol or our White House, for example?
So, you know, this raises some real genuine concern. And I think they're going to go back to the think tank and they're going to start to explore the feasibility of this possibly happening again and what countermeasure they can institute to mitigate it.
SANCHEZ: Well, and it's -- you know, it is not just the Capitol buildings and the official buildings, but, you know, people watching this newscast are concerned for their husbands, their wives, their children who hang out at malls at certain times of the year that are just chockfull of people who would be in a vulnerable position. Not to mention stadiums and all kinds of events like this.
Are we vulnerable, Tom? Are we realizing our vulnerability here we hadn't considered in the past, Tom?
TOM FUENTES, FMR. FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF FBI'S OFFICE OF INTERNATIONAL OPERATIONS: Rick, we have considered it in the past. I mean, they could meet and they could discuss it and they could bat it back and forth. And at the end of the day, they will come to the conclusion that there's practically nothing that they can do to stop something like this. Just about nothing.
We have individuals flying airplanes all over this country, all day, as small as Piper cubs, crop dusters, you name it. And the amount of time that it takes for someone to veer off course and crash it is about five seconds. And how are you going to stop that? Even if you had jet fighters in the air, it wouldn't have been a time to intercept this plane once they realized once he was flying to low and he was aimed at a building.
SANCHEZ: It sounds like what you are saying it has to be preempted, almost as if we better know what's in this guy's head before he gets in the plane and starts flying.
We'll be right back with Lou Palumbo and Tom Fuentes after what is an alarming attack in Austin, Texas. Brooke Baldwin is with me as well.
And we're also going to be joined in just a moment by a gentlemen who's going to be taking us through this act that's described in a suicide letter, this 1986 Tax Reform Act, Section 1706. What's it mean? What's it about?
Well, this man who gave -- who killed himself today wasn't the only one that's upset about this. That gentleman you are looking at right there, across from me, he is upset about it as well. He's going to tell us why the act made so many Americans angry, what it actually means.
Stay right there. This is interesting conversation.
It's RICK'S LIST. We're scrolling on.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Talking about this attack in Austin, Texas. You have seen the pictures. You have seen that a man was so frustrated, or so he said, with the IRS in what appears to be a suicide letter that he left behind, that he literally burned his house and then flew his plane right smack-dab into the middle of this building that happened to have 190 IRS workers in the building.
Joining me now is Michael Crawford. He's a software engineer.
Let's just make sure we are clear on the record, because I don't want to put you in a precarious situation where you have got people angry at you. You obviously, in no way, condone this man's actions.
Correct, Mr. Crawford?
MICHAEL CRAWFORD, SOFTWARE CONSULTANT: I don't. And that is not the right way to solve the problem. But I read his essay just before I came to the station, and I have to say, my own hard experience as a software consultant is very much like his.
SANCHEZ: All right. We're talking specifically about something that happened -- or he was speaking specifically about something that happened in 1986. It was a Tax Reform Act. I believe it was called Section 1706. Is that right?
CRAWFORD: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And 1706 apparently did something. Let me describe what it did, according to the research we have done here at CNN and some of the other periodicals like "The New York Times" that have written about it.
They say, "The law is aimed at skilled workers, many in the high-tech industry, who sell their skills to service agencies, which then match them with clients such as banks and stock brokerages. A number of these professionals" -- engineers, designers, drafters, computer programmers like yourself, system analysts -- "are called self- employed consultants, and they lose their tax status under this new regulation."
It sounds like that pretty well explained it. Suddenly, the IRS decided, sorry, we're taking away your tax status. That made a lot of folks angry, including this gentleman that flew the plane in there.
Correct?
CRAWFORD: Yes. What happened as a results of that act, in my understanding, is that it became very difficult for software consultants like myself and independent electronic engineers to work independently.
Instead, we have to go through contract recruiting agencies or brokers who take a cut of our pay, and the client hires the agency and the agency hires us. And rather than us determining our own destiny by running a business, it often ends up very much that what we are doing is enriching these agencies and --
SANCHEZ: We often hear -- and thank you for that very good explanation. We often hear Americans complain about the IRS, Uncle Sam, taxes, get your hand out of my pocket.
How many people would you say were affected by this law that were just as angry or upset or frustrated with the government for doing this?
CRAWFORD: Just right here in Silicon Valley, where live, I'd have to say at least a couple of hundred thousand. And several hundred thousand across the country.
And there have been many people who have urged Congress to change the law. But it just sounds silly to a congressman, I'm sure, to hear a software engineer talking about some arcane facet of tax law that needs to be changed. But what it is most important is that that law prevents people who want to be self-employed and to run their own businesses from determining their own destinies.
I want to also point out something that was very apparent from the gentleman's essay.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
CRAWFORD: The work of a self-employed software consultant, it is a very hard life. And at times, we can make very high hourly pay, but it happens all the time that, you know, the clients stiff us or the agencies are late, or we go months with no work at all.
SANCHEZ: Well, to read and to hear you, it almost sounds like the story of the little guy kind of feeling like he is getting put upon by the bug guys, who is in cahoots with the government. I know that's a simplistic explanation, but does that sum it up?
CRAWFORD: That's very much my own experience. And if you ask around on Internet message words where software engineers hang out, you will hear us all talking about it like that.
SANCHEZ: Wow. This is interesting. You know, it's funny how you get to work in a business, the news business, where you learn things that you never even thought of before.
Once again, this does not in any way condone his actions, nor are you, sir, as you stated earlier, saying that. But it's interesting to know what some of the frustrations are in this case, so deep rooted that it would cause this man to do what he did on this day.
My thanks to you, sir, for taking time to come on and take us through this.
This is RICK'S LIST, going a little beneath the surface. In fact, very much beneath the surface on this day as this tragedy happens in Austin.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Jeanne Meserve is joining us now.
No doubt, Jeanne, you heard my conversation just a little while ago with Congressman Mike McCaul. He says he's going into that homeland security briefing that they're going to have in a little while, and he told us here on the record that he's going to ask that committee to review all of policies involving flights and small aircraft flown around the country to make sure that we're not vulnerable in that regard.
What did you make of that?
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, that has been a very big issue for quite some time. Former secretary of Homeland Security, Michael Chertoff, had a lot of concern about general aviation aircraft. He, at one point, said the thing he most worried about was one of them carrying nuclear material or nuclear weapon into the country. So it's something they looked at very, very carefully, how to better get a handle on general aviation.
And there had been some stricter proposals. Last time I checked with the TSA, that was still very much a work in progress. There has been pushback from the general aviation community about just how tightly they wanted to be regulated.
SANCHEZ: Yes, I imagine that --
MESERVE: It's still a work in progress.
SANCHEZ: But, you know what's interesting is I was just having -- I don't know if you also heard the conversation I was having with Tom Fuentes, former FBI, and he said, Rick, once a guy gets it in his head that he's going to do this, and he's already flaying the plane, there really is nothing you can do to stop him. If you want to stop him, you have got to kind of get into his head before he gets wheels up, so to speak.
Right?
MESERVE: I would say there are exceptions to that. For instance, if he was trying to fly into Washington, D.C., where there is a zone around the city, where small aircraft are not supposed to enter. And if someone comes in, there is laser system that sends up warnings to them. There are aircraft, Coast Guard, helicopters that go up, and flash warning lights and signs at them.
And so, there are, in some instances, in a city like Washington, there is a way to give them warning and let them know what's up. And as you know, there's always a military option, although, fortunately, they have never had to go down that road.
SANCHEZ: What did the White House do today? How did they react to this? Because there is a moment there, once this incident happened, and then when we heard of that plane being diverted -- Brooke, from San Francisco to Denver --
BALDWIN: Denver to San Francisco.
SANCHEZ: Denver to San Francisco, ends up being diverted to --
BALDWIN: Salt Lake City.
SANCHEZ: Salt Lake City.
I mean, there was a moment there when we were all kind of puckered up a little bit, wondering what the heck was going on. Thank goodness it wasn't as serious as we originally thought.
But what was going on in Washington at the time? Can you take us there?
MESERVE: Well, you know, we reached out right away to the Department of Homeland Security and to the White House and said, can you tell us what's happening? And in fairly short order, they put out a statement saying we don't think it's terrorism. They also said we don't think it's criminal, something they have since retracted. But still saying they don't, in their view, view it as terrorism. And I know a controversial topic that you have been discussing. We do know that the president was briefed on this matter by his counterterrorism adviser, John Brennan. He was traveling today, but Brennan let him know exactly what was happening.
So, you know, they were concerned, they were worried. As you know, those two jets went up in Texas just as a precautionary measure to make sure everything was under control. But in fairly short order, they determined that this was an individual who was doing this.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: And y know what? You were all over it all day long. My thanks to you, Jeanne. I'm sure our viewers thank you for your hustle and your effort as well.
From the moment we knew that there was something going on, we could count on you to try and bring us all the information. You have.
You were going to add something else?
MESERVE: Rick, let me give you a little more. Can I give you a little bit --
SANCHEZ: You've got something else? Please. Please.
MESERVE: Just a little bit.
Yes, I just talked to a federal law enforcement official who said there is no indication that this individual was working with anyone else. Andrew Stack was working by himself.
The investigation is still very much ongoing. They have not drawn any firm conclusions, but of course they are looking at the matter of whether or not that IRS building was a target.
And we've had a statement from the IRS commissioner, Doug Shulman, who says, "The incident is of deep concern and we are working with law enforcement agencies to fully investigate."
So, clearly, that is, as one would expect, a very active avenue that they are looking at to try and determine why this happened -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: That's why we have a security desk and that's why we have Jeanne Meserve.
My thanks to you for your hustle and effort.
MESERVE: You bet.
SANCHEZ: And, by the way, as we go to break, here's more pictures and sounds of exactly what happened today on this attack in Austin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were in the FBI building next door with the online trading academy and the entire building shook. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw something fall out of the sky and then a big fireball kind of shoot out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A major wakeup call. You never know when something is going to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Wolf Blitzer is joining us now.
Wolf, I'm not sure we can peg-hole this guy. I have been reading his suicide note over and over again.
I mean, he's very critical of President George W. Bush, calls him a puppet. He seemed to be pro-health care reform, hated Wall Street, couldn't stand the IRS, was generally anti-government.
You know, interesting character, huh?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And don't forget, if you read it carefully, Rick, he hates the Catholic Church, the fact that -- he points out that the Catholic Church gets all these tax exemptions and they are so wealthy. So he has got this religious hatred of the Catholic Church in there as well. So, obviously a very disturbed individual if, in fact, this note was written by Joseph Stack.
SANCHEZ: Are you working at all during your show -- I imagine you are probably going to touch on it -- this conversation I was just having with Jeanne Meserve, with Tom Fuentes, and with Lou Palumbo, that we were having about, you know, this kind of worries Americans. Because, look, anybody on a plane out there, between the fuel on the plane and whatever the heck in their crazy mind they decide that they are going to put on that plane, incendiary devices or explosives or something, I mean, you have to start worrying about whether we can stop something like this.
And you heard Tom Fuentes, Wolf. He said, look, the fact of the matter is, once he is up in the air, it's really tough to stop it. Except for you guys in Washington. But the rest of us, we don't have that.
BLITZER: I suspect they will carefully study this incident, the authorities, and learn lessons and take steps to try to mitigate it. But you're right, once somebody is up in the air, and if he goes crazy or has an agenda, if you will, to kill people, it's very hard to stop that.
SANCHEZ: Well, these guys in general aviation, these very wealthy guys who, unlike you and I, have their own planes and stuff, they don't want the government checking in on them before they fly. They don't like putting out the flight plans.
I mean, I can understand that. But it may come down to more regulation just to make sure we have got a good deal. Doesn't that make sense?
BLITZER: I think you're right. It's probably going to happen.
If you go on a private plane, you don't have to go through metal detectors. You just show up, you walk up on the plane and they get out of there. And they like it, all these people who have these private planes. But I suspect these kinds of incidents, if they continue, that's going to change.
SANCHEZ: That's good stuff.
Wolf, look forward to your show.
Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
My thanks to you. See you a little bit later.
Meantime, I'm going to be back just to close things out with some final thoughts. And Brooke Baldwin is here by my side to take us through some of the information, some of the things that maybe we don't know about this character. I just forgot his name again -- Joseph Andrew --
BALDWIN: Stack.
SANCHEZ: -- Stack.
BALDWIN: Fifty-three.
SANCHEZ: Yes. Thank you.
We'll be right back. Stay with us.
This is THE LIST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And it's looking more and more like this was, in fact, a suicide mission with a man with a grudge, doesn't it at this point, Brooke?
BALDWIN: Right. Flew his plane into this building there around 10:00 Central Time this morning. And then later we learned he set his own home on fire. We know that there was a woman and a small child in that home. They were able to get out from what we understand.
SANCHEZ: Thank goodness. Thank goodness.
BALDWIN: But he left a suicide manifesto. Still, a lot of questions as to his motivation.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
You know, Wolf Blitzer is going to be taking us through some of those. That's coming up next in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
Thanks for being with us these last two hours, all of the stories that have been breaking, all seemingly at the same time.
I'm Rick Sanchez. I'll be looking for you again right here, tomorrow on THE LIST.
Here's Wolf.
