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Rick's List
Breaking Down Toyota Execs' Testimony; Whale Kills Trainer at SeaWorld
Aired February 24, 2010 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: All right, let me bring Mike Quincy into this.
Mike Quincy with "Consumer Reports," you're as -- as renowned an expert on -- on cars as anybody we can reach out to.
What the hell was just going on there? What was that all about, her Camry --
MICHAEL QUINCY, AUTOMOTIVE CONTENT SPECIALIST, "CONSUMER REPORTS": Well --
SANCHEZ: -- and whether it's made here or there?
QUINCY: -- I really think, you know, you're getting to the point where you're almost arguing about arguing.
The -- what the -- what the Toyota executive was trying to say was, a lot of -- the majority of the parts are sourced in the United States. The car is physically built in the United States. He's not making a comment that the American workers aren't any good.
And she's completely twisting this around. She's missing the point. And when she says something like, well, can you guarantee that this car will never be recalled, there isn't an auto executive in the world that could ever say that about any of their cars.
SANCHEZ: But -- yes, but let's get down to the nitty-gritty here. What she's really concerned about is, is there a possibility -- here's what she's really saying. And I think she speaks for the American people when she says that.
Is there a possibility that, while I'm driving my Toyota, my gas pedal is going to get sticky, as Mr. Toyoda referred to it, and I might not be able to stop my car?
QUINCY: That could happen with any car, Rick.
I mean, there are thousands of cars that get complaints about unintended acceleration. Right now, we're focusing on Toyota, but it's not the only manufacturer in NHTSA's database that has complaints about unintended acceleration. But, again, no auto executive could guarantee, oh, this will never -- I can guarantee it will never happen.
Nobody can do that.
SANCHEZ: But, Mike, the -- Mike, look, this thing has happened to Toyota. They're in the middle of this quagmire, if you will. They're the ones who are dealing with the complaints. And they're the ones who are having horrific read to the -- and detailed to the American people about mothers and fathers who were driving their cars with their children inside and they couldn't stop them.
They're the ones who have to be able to give some kind of assurance. And, so far, aside from naming some executive who's going to handle product safety, I haven't heard any kind of assurances. Is that because they don't have any kind of assurance?
QUINCY: Well, the fact is, Rick, that, according to all the data and the statistics, the odds of this happening to your Toyota are very, very small.
And it isn't to -- to degrade any of the -- the horrible experiences that the people who have had and -- and any death lost to sudden acceleration is horrible. Nobody is going to deny that. It's a serious problem, but it is a very rare problem.
But -- but, again, from the best manufacturers down to the worst manufacturers, they cannot guarantee that a vehicle will never have a recall.
SANCHEZ: OK.
Let's go to Roland Martin. He's -- he's -- he's -- following this discussion as well, has been watching the apology from Mr. Toyoda as well.
Roland, you say what?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Rick, it's important for us to separate the two different things that was taking place for Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton.
First of all, her initial comment, she talked about the safety issues. Now, I always think as a consumer. I have owned a 4Runner. I have owned a Corolla. When I bought my Navigator two years ago, I literally -- literally was that close to buying a Toyota Sequoia. Why? Because of their safety record.
So, her initial comment was like, look, people like me, we didn't care about the price. We didn't care about anything. It was about safety.
Toyota's greatest currency has been its safety record. Remember the day, Rick, when nobody wanted to buy a used car? When Toyota began to service their Lexuses and those other kinds of car, they took the used car market to a whole new level.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MARTIN: People all of a sudden said, wow, we can trust that. And, so, it's -- it's -- the real issue for Toyota -- Toyota and why the CEO is here, the founder's grandson, is because that is their currency. They were able to surpass --
SANCHEZ: Uh-huh.
MARTIN: -- Ford, Chrysler --
SANCHEZ: You make a --
MARTIN: -- GM because of safety.
SANCHEZ: You make a great point.
By the way, your car may be used. Mine is pre-owned, in case you were wondering.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: OK. Same thing.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: Same thing.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: Hold up. It's called not new.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Mike Quincy standing by, look, Roland, makes a good point.
MARTIN: And, actually, Toyota changed that.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Toyota called it pre-owned.
SANCHEZ: You're right.
MARTIN: That was interesting.
SANCHEZ: We're down to 10 seconds, Mike Quincy, just before we let you go. And we're going to bring you back in a minute.
But is Roland right? Has their safety record been hampered? And was that in not, many ways, as Mr. Martin points out, that their bread and butter?
QUINCY: Definitely, there's -- they got a -- they got a black eye on this.
However, you have to look at the whole picture of safety. And that includes crash tests by the government -- done by the government -- and The Insurance Institute. Toyotas have an excellent record for crash tests.
SANCHEZ: All right.
QUINCY: And, again, a recall isn't -- isn't the end of the world.
SANCHEZ: All right. Let's stop it right there. We are going to take a break. We're going to come right back.
By the way, folks, there's a story that's developing right now. It's as bizarre and as curious a story as I have reported in all my years doing news, that the killer whale at SeaWorld at Shamu Stadium has killed its trainer, interestingly enough.
And we're trying to get more information surrounding the circumstances of this thing, how it happened. But that's a live picture you're looking right there of the whale in question. It's a heck of a story. And more details are coming in. We are going to bring you that as well, as we monitor the Toyota hearings.
And there's a lot of other stuff going on as well.
This is THE LIST. We list things for you. We bring in opinions. We will share it with you. Stay there.
I'm Rick Sanchez. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
I want to take you to the White House now.
Gary Locke is our nation's commerce secretary. He's standing by and good enough to join us now with information about what is going --
Have you been monitoring these Toyota hearings?
GARY LOCKE, U.S. SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: Well, actually, I have -- I have just watched, just like you have.
But safety is the number-one concern for all of us. And the -- people from Toyota, along with Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood, have been testifying all day on the Hill.
SANCHEZ: Well, are you concerned -- are you concerned about -- about the secretary -- not so much about the secretary, but the Department of Transportation, and maybe what they should have done, highway safety commission, to make sure that these things were -- were -- were checked on and were -- were -- and that we were having conversations with Toyota to say, hey, you have got a problem here; you have got to fix it?
I'm not sure that was expressed early enough.
LOCKE: Well, obviously, the hearings are ongoing still, and it's going to be a topic of discussion and controversy and inquiry for several more days.
But the number-one thing is that we need to make sure that any American driving a Toyota feels safe, and that the -- the recall is comprehensive enough, and that the cars are immediately fixed, and that whatever problems exist are taken care of.
SANCHEZ: You have got a meeting coming up. As soon as you're done talking to me, you are going to walk into the White House and have a meeting with the president. What are you two gentlemen going to be talking about?
LOCKE: Well, we're going to be talking about how to restore this economy, and how to support businesses, because, as the president said earlier today to the Business Roundtable representing the large companies all across America, if businesses succeed, America succeeds.
And we need to work together --
SANCHEZ: Mm-hmm.
LOCKE: -- to ensure that, as -- that the companies are strong, competitive, especially in this global competition that they face, and that they're able to put Americans back to work.
And one of the strategies is to help American companies sell more of their American-made products and services around the world.
SANCHEZ: Well, I will tell you what you need to do. You need to create jobs for people, I mean, somehow. Isn't this whole thing about jobs, jobs, jobs? And there's a couple of ways you can do that.
I mean, you -- the government can hire people, in a Rooseveltian style, where you create public works of some kind, but then it's basically my tax money being used to pay somebody to do something. Or you can increase unemployment benefits and pay people longer to be out of work.
Or you can do what you guys seem to be doing, which, by the way, is more a conservative idea than it is a liberal or Democratic idea, which is to find a way to reduce people's taxes enough so that they can hire more people.
That's what your jobs plan is about, isn't it?
LOCKE: That's right. That's exactly what the president has proposed, by way of tax credits for companies to hire more people.
And the Senate, just a few hours ago, passed, on a very strong bipartisan basis, a jobs bill that gives tax incentives for medium and small businesses to hire people by forgiving them having to pay Social Security payroll taxes for the next year.
The president has also proposed a $5,000 tax credit for every new hire, as well as incentives for investment in small businesses and allowing companies to expense some of their capital expenditures. What the president said to the business leaders is that he hopes to sign, this year and next year, some $70 million in tax breaks for businesses to encourage them to hire people. I mean, people that they're going to hire, let's try to give them an incentive to hire them sooner and to make those purchases of equipment --
SANCHEZ: Yes.
LOCKE: -- that will then ripple throughout the economy and put other people to work in other industries.
SANCHEZ: You know, and it's interesting. I -- I caught you guys on this there at the White House. When the president spoke about this, and introduced this plan, his -- his palaver, his language, and the order in which he put the words was interesting.
He said, I'm creating a tax cut so that small business employers can hire more workers. He didn't say, I'm creating a jobs bill. He said, I'm creating a tax cut.
So, you know, I'm not sure that was a coincidence, was it?
LOCKE: Well, I do know that the president believes that government cannot solve these problems. We can be a helpful facilitator. But, really, the job creation will come from the private sector.
And we need to -- and the president said to the business executives today he wants to work with them, because --
SANCHEZ: But it's coming through tax -- it's coming through a tax cut. It's essentially a tax cut for small business guys and gals, so that they can hire people. That's what it is, isn't it?
LOCKE: It is.
And companies that are thinking -- and even large companies that are thinking of hiring people, we want to provide the incentive for them to hire even sooner, or to increase the hours that people are working --
SANCHEZ: Huh.
LOCKE: -- and so -- or even give people pay raises, so that the president has proposed that any increased Social Security taxes that would come from increased hours, bringing people from half-time or three-quarter-time back to full-time or giving them a pay raise, that they will not have to pay the increased Social Security taxes that come along --
SANCHEZ: Yes.
LOCKE: -- with that higher payroll.
So, we have these incentives, because we want the private sector to create these jobs. And that's where the -- the job growth will come from. And the president, of course, did enact, through the Recovery Act a year ago, a tax cut for 95 percent of all Americans, which is about $150 billion in tax relief, living up to his campaign promise to provide tax relief for middle Americans.
That extra money in those pockets means that they can buy groceries, buy clothes, shop at supermarkets.
SANCHEZ: Well, we get it.
LOCKE: And that stimulates even more business throughout the economy.
SANCHEZ: The commerce secretary of the United States, Mr. Gary Locke, we thank you, sir.
And, please, I know you're heading into that building behind you now that we refer to as 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Our regards to the president. And tell him we're waiting here to have a -- an interview with him as well.
LOCKE: I will. I will pass that along.
SANCHEZ: Tell him he's on THE LIST, by the way.
LOCKE: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: He made RICK'S LIST. He's officially on it. And so are you, sir.
LOCKE: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: All right.
Let's bring you up to date now on what is going, the very latest information that's coming in from Orlando, Florida. Many of you -- sometimes, we choose stories based on their relatability. And this is certainly a story that has a reference point for so many of us, because many of you, as you're sitting there watching, have been to this place. It's Sea World.
It's a huge tourist attraction right next to Disney World, where, you know, we take our families. We have a great time to see it. And, while we're there, we watch the killer whale show at the Shamu Stadium.
Well, let me tell you what's going on at -- at -- at SeaWorld. It's interesting that a killer whale has apparently killed its trainer. The information that we're getting into -- into us right now is that somehow it -- it -- it grabbed the trainer around the waist and started shaking her.
Now, we're not sure if she took the trainer under water or not. That's some of the information that we're still trying to get for you. And, as we do, we will be sharing it with you in just a little bit.
Stay right there. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. Drew Griffin is joining me now.
There's another developing story that I want to bring you. Drew Griffin of our Investigations Unit has some breaking information.
Now, this is interesting. I think you might recall -- and let me catch you up -- there's a hit squad that walked into a hotel in Dubai and killed a Hamas leader who was staying there. Remember this video? Everybody was talking about the video. Everybody was talking about the fact that it may have been Israeli agents, who often do this, and do it quite well, as a matter of fact.
Well, there's new information to this -- to this mysterious story. By the way, that video you're looking at right there, that is surveillance cameras from inside the hotel that recorded these 11? Was it one or 10?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Eleven.
SANCHEZ: Eleven people who mysteriously showed up, the guy was killed, and then they mysteriously disappeared. Who are they? Where are they from? What connections do they have?
That's where I bring in Drew Griffin.
What do you got?
GRIFFIN: Even -- even that woman there is one of them.
Interestingly enough, 15 more people now added to the Dubai wanted list, a total of 26 people to kill this Hamas leader and arms dealer.
SANCHEZ: Wow.
GRIFFIN: And now we're learning, in more mysterious fashion, they paid all their tabs with credit cards that were prepaid, issued from a company in New York, through a bank in Iowa.
SANCHEZ: Iowa?
GRIFFIN: Right -- with a branch in Tel Aviv. The company in New York has a branch in Tel Aviv, very, very suspicious, all leading towards a possible Israeli connection, right?
But our sources are telling us maybe not. Maybe this was a ruse. The Israeli Mossad doesn't operate this way. We wouldn't even know this was going on. And one of these international security consultants I talked with said, you know what? Mossad doesn't need 11 or 26 people to take somebody out.
So, it's a very mysterious case.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: You mean someone is trying to make it look like Israel --
GRIFFIN: Perhaps.
SANCHEZ: -- did this?
GRIFFIN: Perhaps.
SANCHEZ: Right. Yes. Yes. We can't nail this down at this time.
GRIFFIN: That should be in the realm of possibility.
But Dubai now has 26 people on the list of people they want to talk to. And it should be pointed out that all these people in this video that we have seen are following the person they're going to kill, are staking him out, have all use passports that have now been determined to be fake.
SANCHEZ: You know, I don't know. It's -- you -- these things can always go one way or another. I have been covering these kinds of things in my own community, being a Cuban-American who followed politics in Miami.
And every time somebody said it was a Castro spy, somebody else came forward and said, no, it was somebody trying to make --
GRIFFIN: Right.
SANCHEZ: -- him look like a Castro spy.
GRIFFIN: Right. Right. Right.
SANCHEZ: So, these things happen all the time.
But we do know this. This was legitimately a Hamas leader who was the enemy of Israel?
GRIFFIN: Well, he was a Hamas leader who was the enemy of Israel.
SANCHEZ: Right.
GRIFFIN: Leaders in Hamas have said -- I mean, in -- in Israel have said, hey, no harm, no foul. Tzipi Livni has said, hey, a dead terrorist is a good terrorist, literally.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
GRIFFIN: So, there is no love lost between this man and Israel.
He's also, though, Rick, an international arms dealer --
SANCHEZ: Yes.
GRIFFIN: -- which brings in a little bit more --
SANCHEZ: Great point.
GRIFFIN: -- of the intrigue and the dastardly deeds that may have befallen this man. His name is Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.
SANCHEZ: Interesting point.
GRIFFIN: And he also was traveling, which was interesting to the sources we talked to, without any bodyguards, which was telling to the people who have investigated cases like this.
SANCHEZ: Hmm. And the way he was killed is really interesting as well. And we're not going to get into any of that, but you can find it on Drew's reports on CNN.com, by the way. It was pretty meticulous and pretty well-planned.
Thanks for the information.
GRIFFIN: You bet, rip
SANCHEZ: The stuff about Iowa is what I find to be very intriguing, by the way.
GRIFFIN: And -- and -- and the banks are cooperating --
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: A bank in Iowa.
GRIFFIN: -- with authorities.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: OK. Thanks, Drew.
All right, the very latest on what's going on with Toyota. This is the grandson of the founder of Toyota, Akio Toyoda. And he apologized. And, since then, he has been getting hammered by many of those members of Congress as to what he's doing about the problem of the -- as he said, the sticky gas pedal problem.
We're going to be right back. Stay right with us, because we have got a lot of information to take you through.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right, the very latest information that we're getting out of SeaWorld now is that they're going to be holding a news conference probably within the next nine minutes or so. So, hold tight.
You know, we have been trying to get as much information as we can out of this, because it's a curious story. Why would this animal that had apparently a relationship with its trainer for so many years suddenly become aggressive and kill the trainer, and in a very violent way, according to the initial reports that we have gotten so far?
So, we don't know how many people were there. We don't know how many guests witnessed this as it happened. Obviously, we're going to probably get a lot of those answers in just a little bit. And we're also trying to see if we can get a guest on this as well who can take us through it, somebody like, you know, my friend Ron Magill down there at -- in South Florida, who's a wealth of knowledge when it comes to training animals and why they sometimes snap, like apparently this animal has done.
In the meantime, let me bring you up to date on what's going on with Toyota Motor Company. This is the grandson of the founder of Toyota. For the last, oh, hour-and-a-half, he has been addressing potential buyers of cars in the United States and those who already owned Toyotas and telling them that they're doing everything that they can possibly do to remedy this situation, although no surefire answers have been given as to whether or not there's a fix or not.
Let's just dip into this for just a couple of seconds here and hear what they're saying.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
REP. MARK SOUDER (R), INDIANA: -- before the trial. Now, I'm not saying that you're not guilty. I'm just saying, it seems, by hauling you in here and the way we have handled this, and by going through a lot of internal memos, there's a lot yet to be decided. And -- and I'm trying to get to the truth.
I represent an auto area. We make parts through my whole district. We are -- Fort Wayne, Indiana, is the proud home of the Silverado and Sierra, who is in competition with you every day. So, my goal is sell GM products and Ford and Chrysler. But, also, I have suppliers to you.
One at -- in this district is CTS. It's right at the edge of -- of my district. That these two pedals have distinctly different problems --
SANCHEZ: These are the kind of questions that we have been hearing. And he's not the first senator, by the way, to take up these two pedals and say, why is it -- pardon me -- congressmen -- to take out two pedals and say, why is it one of them is made over there one of them is made over here?
Mike Quincy, is that a big deal? Is that a bone of contention in this case?
QUINCY: Well, I think you have to understand, Rick, that, for all the cars that are produced, both in the United States and around the world, the suppliers come from -- from everywhere. They might come from Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, whatever.
And all the -- all the suppliers don't necessarily interact with each other. And the fact that you can put all of these different parts made by all these different other companies into the same car, and the car generally runs, it starts up in all kinds of weather, all kinds of different drivers, it's amazing it works as well as it does.
SANCHEZ: But -- but --
QUINCY: But suppliers come from everywhere. SANCHEZ: Mike, just answer me this. And you -- you know more about cars than I do. You know more about cars than most of the people who are watching us right now.
Why would they come here and face the cameras and face these congressmen, and be essentially blasphemed by them, if they don't have a surefire answer for them that they can guarantee that they can control this situation? Because I haven't heard that.
QUINCY: Right. Well, you know, Rick, I'm -- I'm not a -- a business psychology expert.
But, from what I can see, if -- if -- you really -- if Toyota does not show up from the home office in Japan, they -- they -- they lose even more face than they probably already have. So, they have to come in, and they have to face the music.
But, again, a few years ago, we were talking about Ford and the Explorer and Firestone tires, and there was a lot of finger-pointing through that also. Again, I'm not trying to minimize the impacts and the tragedy that happened with these Toyota cars and the recalls.
But this is -- this is just one of many kinds of situations that we have seen in -- in the past.
SANCHEZ: And it just blows -- well, it seems to have blown up on them.
Kyung Lah is standing by in Tokyo. She has been following -- Kyung, how big a decision was this to send the grandson of Mr. Toyoda himself to the United States to face the heat?
KYUNG LAH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A very big decision, because he didn't really intend on going.
What he wanted to do is to send Inaba. He said this multiple times here in a number of press conferences, saying that he didn't feel that he was the one who was best prepared to answer the questions. And, if you listen, it appears to be the case that Inaba is the one who really knows the ins and outs of what's happening in the U.S. operation.
In Japan, the way Japanese corporations are organized, the -- the head of the company really doesn't know the minutia. He may not even be aware of significant problems that may exist in -- in the particular company.
So, what we're hearing is that they're going to try to reorganize the structure of Toyota to try to address some of those concerns, and understanding that perhaps the way a Japanese corporation works in a global community, in a global business environment, just doesn't work.
SANCHEZ: How embarrassing --
(CROSSTALK)
LAH: -- also want to point out, Rick, that we will really -- SANCHEZ: How embarrassing is this for this man, who you wrote to us and said is not at all public?
LAH: He is certainly --
(LAUGHTER)
LAH: -- feeling something different today. This is someone who doesn't really have any photos of him available with his family, as a child. We couldn't find anything. There are books about the Toyoda family, but we couldn't any significant pictures of him, even with his -- his own father or his own grandfather.
This is a family that's exceptionally private. He's grown up in a community with a name that's very important, so he has had to make sure that he behaved very properly in Japan, a culture that really does care about how you behave publicly.
SANCHEZ: So, is he --
LAH: So, this is something that is certainly very different for him.
SANCHEZ: So, is he freaking out? He's in -- in the United States, totally different customs. He has these congressmen all but yelling at him, and accusing him of screwing up, telling him that he should be "embarrassed" -- quote, unquote.
This must be a heck of a moment for him.
LAH: But certainly something that he can probably handle, because he is Japanese. He is the president of a global company. He certainly has felt heat before.
And he is well-practiced in trying to handle different issues. This is something he's been groomed to do. He -- he is the -- the -- the first son of the -- the -- the grandfather. And so what we're seeing is someone who really was groomed for this position, who grew up to do this and to handle this.
But it doesn't take away from the fact that this is extraordinarily difficult for anyone, especially if you're Japanese, if this isn't your first language, and you're trying to answer questions in an American style. This is all completely new and different.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Yes, yes. I -- you could almost tell. You can almost tell.
Roland Martin is watching this as well.
Roland, do you agree with me? Because, again, I'm not a car expert, but I have not heard -- although I have heard contrition, I have not heard an explanation of what they're going to be able to do with these people who have -- for these people who bought these cars.
MARTIN: Well, actually, you have. What you heard is, you heard them repeatedly say that: We have made recalls. We are applying the fixes. That's what we're doing right now.
SANCHEZ: What fixes?
MARTIN: Understand that --
SANCHEZ: What -- wait, wait, wait. Time out. What fixes?
MARTIN: No, but, Rick, Rick, Rick, Rick, Rick, Rick, Rick, again, you want to go through a mechanical chart in terms of exactly what it is. You have heard, first of all, software repair. That's one of the things that we have heard.
We have heard Toyota talk about in terms of how the -- the replacing of the mats. So, we have heard those different things. But, understand, a couple of things are happening --
SANCHEZ: Replacing of the mats?
MARTIN: -- that --
SANCHEZ: Roland,, come on.
MARTIN: Rick, Rick, Rick, Rick, that's what they're saying. Follow me here.
A couple things are happening that we have to admit to, OK? Here, you have Toyota that has supplanted the Big Three as the number-one automaker in the United States.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MARTIN: What you have is a company that has long dominated on safety.
When Chrysler and Ford and GM went through all of their safety issues, people ran to Toyota. So, what you also have to -- so, remember when you asked, well, what are these members of Congress saying? The reason they're making a distinction between what is made in Japan and what is made in America, because they are trying to divorce the issue, in terms of trying to say, well, this is really this big Japanese company, that -- that you have made these mistakes.
That's why the Toyota guy, the head, CEO of North America, said, wait a minute, Toyota, that particular hybrid made here in America.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MARTIN: The Toyota representatives are trying to make it clear that, look, don't try to make us out to be the big bad Japanese company. We are also an American company.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MARTIN: There's a dance going on here, because you have members of Congress who want people to buy American. And so, if, all of a sudden, you create this sense that Toyota now is also in trouble -- look, Ford has already jumped on this. GM has jumped on this. SANCHEZ: Yes, but -- but --
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: They're --
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: -- this is an opportunity.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: So, don't -- don't just minimize what's also the political dance going on, beyond the safety issues.
SANCHEZ: Well, some of those competitive businesses -- advantages are -- are to be expected.
The question is, nationalism and business --
MARTIN: Well, this is a -- but these are political people, though.
SANCHEZ: Wait. But nationalism and business expectations and politics aside, I think what our viewers want to know, the people who watch me every day are expecting us to tell them is, great, Toyota just stood before Congress. Did they say they had a fix for my car?
And I haven't heard them say that they have or truly understand -- they've got a lot of estimates. They've got a lot of people looking at it. They've got a lot of possible solutions. But I haven't heard them say we know what's causing this and we're going to fix it for you.
MARTIN: Well, Rick, that means that if you likely haven't heard that, they're still trying to determine it. But also let's just be honest. For the past hour, we haven't been listening to the testimony.
SANCHEZ: Oh yes we have.
MARTIN: No, no, no.
SANCHEZ: Hold on. Hold on.
MARTIN: While you and I have been talking, other folks have been listening. My point is -- my point is, if you cannot make a definitive statement that we have found the absolute problem, then you don't throw something out there unless you have that.
SANCHEZ: I agree.
MARTIN: So what you say is we're doing this, this and this. So, unless you have it, don't expect to hear the answer.
SANCHEZ: Point well made and point well taken. We're in agreement.
We're going to be right back. We're following this news conference. And moments from now, we're going to be taking you live to SeaWorld in Orlando, Florida, for a news conference from fire and rescue officials and some of the emergency responders who were there when one of the Shamu killer whales killed its trainer. A lot of mysterious circumstances around this, as well, and we're going to take you through it.
My thanks to my colleague, Roland, for his passion, by the way.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: OK. Following so many things.
Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Remember -- as a matter of fact, let me bring Brooke Baldwin back into this.
Remember when you and I were having this conversation a moment ago and I said I've been to that place so many times? One of my favorite things to always do was to go to the killer whale tank.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Shamu SeaWorld.
SANCHEZ: Before the show started.
BALDWIN: Right. The point was there must have been people inside there before the show even got started.
SANCHEZ: Watching, exactly, and getting the best seats in the house, et cetera, et cetera.
BALDWIN: Exactly.
SANCHEZ: Guess what? We have got sound coming in now from a woman who actually watched this.
BALDWIN: Oh God.
SANCHEZ: Let's pick that up. She's going to describe what she saw when the whale killed its trainer.
Go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We walked down. There were a lot of people there. There was a trainer standing by the window just talking about the whale. And people were asking questions, how much does he weigh, things like that.
And then the whale, like, floated upside down and the trainer downstairs said, oh, yes, he's -- you know, they're giving him a belly rub, he really likes that. And I could tell it was sleeping (ph) because you could tell by the huge, huge fins.
And the trainer downstairs then called out to the trainer upstairs, OK, so-and-so, we're ready. And then Tillicum just took off like a bat out of you know where, just took off really fast. And then he came back around to the glass, jumped up, and grabbed the trainer by the waist and started shaking her violently.
And her shoe -- the last thing I saw was her shoe floating. And then sirens immediately started.
And then everybody -- not the trainer, but the other people that kind of stand around the glass area started telling us that we need to get out, get out. The sirens were going off. People were running out.
I've never seen so many SeaWorld employees come out of the woodwork -- people in suits, people in dress clothes. And they were just yelling at us that we needed to get out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: What a scene. Can you imagine?
BALDWIN: The shoe -- the image of the shoe just floating.
SANCHEZ: Well, and remember we were trying to figure this out just a little while ago. Exactly what did he do with the woman, the trainer, after he started grabbing her and shaking her?
And it sounds -- Elizabeth Cohen is out here, too. She's joining us for a segment that we're about to do. It sounds like he not only took her in its mouth, grabbed her by the waist, and then started shaking her, but then took her under. And she may have very well died from a result of drowning.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. And you have to wonder, was he just playing with her or was he trying to harm her?
SANCHEZ: That's the interesting question, and it's not something we know, but it's something that people who study these kind of things actually know an awful lot about.
We're going to hopefully to get --
BALDWIN: Animal behavior.
SANCHEZ: Exactly -- a guest on.
Look, they're animals. Do they snap from time to time? I would venture to say yes.
A news conference coming up any moment now. And we're going to pick that up for you, a news conference from rescue officials there.
There you see the cameras are already set up, the podium, all the mike flags from all the different stations. A news conference from SeaWorld in Orlando coming your way in just a moment while we also monitor the situation with the Toyota officials talking to one of the congressional hearings. And they're getting slammed during this thing, as well.
Let's stay with this for just a moment.
All right. Have we got them coming out? OK. Here we go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody ready to go? All right.
SANCHEZ: I think we are. Let's take it live.
Go.
First of all, I'm going to introduce -- this is Mr. Dan Brown, and he's the park manager for SeaWorld of Orlando.
Are we good to go?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Basically, at about 2:00 today, Orange County Sheriff's Office and Orange County Fire and Rescue responded to a report of an injury at the Shamu Stadium. Units got on scene and realized that the victim in this case was deceased.
What apparently happened was we had a female trainer back in the whale holding area. She apparently slipped or fell under the tank and was fatally injured by one of the whales. We're on scene, along with forensics, our homicide investigators, and we're conducting a death investigation.
QUESTION: Jim, could you tell if it was an accident or if this was an attack?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, what you all need to know at this point is there's no sense of foul play. Right now this appears to be an accident. As far as the details --
QUESTION: The accident that she fell in, or did the whale accidentally --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We haven't gotten that far. That's why we have death investigations. That's why we have homicide investigators on the scene.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did this female trainer work with this whale on a regular basis?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. The information -- basically, what I've given you is basically all I have.
Obviously, we've got real great concerns for the family of this young lady. I can tell you that she's -- I believe she's 40 years old and she's a female. And she is, as I stated earlier, one of the trainers.
So what I'd like to do is give you Mr. Brown and -- QUESTION: How will the sheriff's office investigation proceed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll tell you that.
DAN BROWN, PRESIDENT, SEAWORLD ORLANDO: Hi. I'm Dan Brown, president of the Orlando parks. And I have a short statement to read.
With me is Chuck Tompkins (ph) and Kelly Clark (ph), who head up our animal training department. A short statement. We won't take any questions. As soon as we know more information, we'll certainly get back to you.
It's with great sadness that I report that one of our most experienced animal trainers drowned in an incident with one of our killer whales this afternoon. We've initiated an investigation to determine to the extent possible what occurred. There are no other details to share at this point, but we will make our findings known in due course.
I must emphasize this is an extraordinarily difficult time for the SeaWorld parks and our team members. Nothing is more important than the safety of our employee, guests, and the animals entrusted to our care. We have never in the history of our parks experienced an incident like this, and all of our standard operating procedures will come under review as part of this investigation. We extend our deepest sympathies to the family and friends of the trainer, and we'll do everything possible to assist them in this difficult time.
So, as soon as we know more about it, we'll get back to you.
Thank you. Thank you.
QUESTION: Dan, can we speak with you guys about the trainers here? We want to learn more about these trainers. Were they --
BROWN: It's still early. Please bear with us. We've just lost a member of our family.
We'll get back to you as soon as we have more information. OK? Thank you.
QUESTION: What do you want your guests of the park to know?
BROWN: We'll get back to you when we have more information.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me leave you with this -- and this is typical. The sheriff's office conducts death investigations, and right now this appears to be an accidental death. It's a tragic death, and we have the appropriate folks on the scene.
They'll conduct that investigation and will determine exactly what happened. But beyond that, that's all I have for you.
QUESTION: Jim, when you say the trainer slipped, can you expand on that please? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I can't. I've basically given you everything I have.
Now, what we will have for you at some point, hopefully later this evening, is I believe we will be able to provide you with the identity of the victim.
So that's all we have for you right now, but we'll get you information as it becomes available.
QUESTION: Do you know if this is concerning a show at all?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's all I know.
Thank you.
SANCHEZ: All right. There you go. Finally walking away with really almost a sense of confusion of what actually had happened here.
And let me bring Brooke back into this.
I look at you because I thought the first report that was filed, that we read, that came to us from local officials, including a television station there in Orlando --
BALDWIN: Was that she was grabbed.
SANCHEZ: Was that she was grabbed while she was not in the water. But now the story we hear -- and you saw the reporters there tussling with that, as well -- was that she slipped and fell into the water.
BALDWIN: She slipped and fell. And he's saying accidental. It's so early, but now I'm further confused. I think a lot of people still are, and they're obviously still digging.
SANCHEZ: We learned from that, as well, from members of the park itself there at SeaWorld that she was one of the most experienced trainers there at the park. So you would think she had a long- standing relationship with that particular killer whale.
What do we know about killer whales? What are the chances that killer whales would ever behave this way? You know, obviously they're wild animals.
Do they just all of a sudden snap? That's where the gentleman to my left comes into the picture, and he's going to be joining us in just a little bit.
Billy Hurley is with the Georgia Aquarium, certainly one of the most renowned aquariums in the United States. It's a sight to behold, that thing. And he's going to bring us up to date on what the animal's behavior could have been, what possibly could have caused something like this. He's going to basically give us the lowdown on an experience like this.
So stay right there. A lot of breaking news. I'm Rick Sanchez. This is THE LIST. And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. Let me catch you up.
We've got some live pictures. We've now had a news conference, and we had a description from a woman who saw it.
What I probably should do at this point for those of you who are just now joining us is let you hear how this woman describes what she saw while she was there and this killer whale took the life of one of its trainers, a senior trainer, one of the most experienced trainers there on SeaWorld.
Roger, if you have that sound -- you do? Let's play it before we talk to Billy Hurley here from the Georgia Aquarium.
Take it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We walked down. There were a lot of people there. There was a trainer standing by the window just talking about the whale. And people were asking questions, how much does he weigh, things like that.
And then the whale, like, floated upside down and the trainer downstairs said, oh, yes, he's -- you know, they're giving him a belly rub, he really likes that. And I could tell it was sleeping (ph) because you could tell by the huge, huge fins.
And the trainer downstairs then called out to the trainer upstairs, OK, so-and-so, we're ready. And then Tillicum just took off like a bat out of you know where, just took off really fast. And then he came back around to the glass, jumped up, and grabbed the trainer by the waist and started shaking her violently.
And her shoe -- the last thing I saw was her shoe floating. And then sirens immediately started.
And then everybody -- not the trainer, but the other people that kind of stand around the glass area started telling us that we need to get out, get out. The sirens were going off. People were running out.
I've never seen so many SeaWorld employees come out of the woodwork -- people in suits, people in dress clothes. And they were just yelling at us that we needed to get out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right. That's a totally different story than what we were just given by police officials.
That woman just said that the killer whale, Talika (ph) --
BILLY HURLEY, SR. VICE PRESIDENT, GEORGIA AQUARIUM: Tillicum.
SANCHEZ: -- Tillicum, jumped up and grabbed the trainer by the waist, leaving the impression that she grabbed her and pulled her into the water.
BALDWIN: Took her down.
SANCHEZ: Police officials are saying the woman slipped into the tank, the killer whale was in the area, and then the killer whale somehow reacted.
Billy Hurley is joining us now. He's a senior vice president of the Georgia Aquarium, one of the foremost aquariums in the United States now.
Take us through what you're thinking as you're listening to this woman's story and the competing story from officials.
HURLEY: Well, obviously, it's a tragedy. Any human loss is a tragedy, and when you play with big animals and you work around big animals, you take the same chances as race car drivers or jet pilots.
You know, when you hear a customer or a guest relive an experience, their perspective may be a little different than those who were closer.
SANCHEZ: That's true. Yes, witnesses are never ironclad.
HURLEY: And the effect on them emotionally can be pretty significant.
SANCHEZ: Well, let me ask you this. Is there a possibility, Billy, that this animal just snapped? Do they do that?
HURLEY: Not generally. I think really what you're looking at is an animal who wants some attention from you. And if you're a large killer whale, grabbing somebody is a way to do it. If you're a dog, scratching your leg is the other way. And so, in this case, a trainer that this animal knows well, really close to the pool, maybe just wanted some attention.
BALDWIN: From what I understand, this has happened before. This whale, Tillicum, killed some years ago a 27-year-old man as a result of horseplay, as it was described. So possibly --
HURLEY: There is no --
SANCHEZ: Is there a pattern?
HURLEY: There's no doubt that an animal of that size can inflict extreme problems for a human when you're playing with them. If a dog or a cat is playing with you, it's not going to be the same.
SANCHEZ: You haven't seen my dog. It's a Rottweiler.
HURLEY: You know, in this case, Tillicum is certainly one who has a tremendous relationship with his trainers and plays with them, but can play, I guess in this case --
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Well, but, how is that possible? Because if you go to their shows and you watch it -- and, by the way, it's a pretty good show -- it's interesting. They do this all the time. She rides on his back. She goes under water with him. She swims with him.
BALDWIN: This is an 11,000-pound animal.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
HURLEY: Right.
SANCHEZ: Yes, but everything that -- it's not like the animal was not used to having someone fall on its back, it's not like it's not used to seeing her, it's not like it's not used to swimming with her or even going under water with her and then coming back up and doing that big dive finale that they always do.
Why would it suddenly do something different than what it always does?
HURLEY: Well, you know, it's really hard to tell you what an animal is thinking. It's a whole lot easier for me to look at the behavior and tell you where I think the behavior came from.
And in this case, you know, an animal trainer who's in the water playing with a whale, without primary enforcement -- that being food, or other secondary enforcers, or some more sort of organized training going around with the animal -- might have confused this animal a little bit and he might have thought, hey, this is just rough house playtime.
SANCHEZ: So the fact that this happened not during their performance, but prior to their performance, you think might be significant? That's what I just heard you say.
HURLEY: It certainly limits the amount of control one has. When you're training animals and working with food and other reinforcers, you certainly have a great opportunity to communicate with that animal and reward that animal for perfect behavior. If no reinforcement is available, and you're just hanging out by the pool and the animal thinks hey, I'm not getting your attention, and wants to get your attention by grabbing you is one way.
When you're 11,000 pounds, that's a tough way to go.
SANCHEZ: That's interesting. What may have been nothing more than him essentially, like our dogs and cats do with us at home, let me get your attention.
BALDWIN: Getting a little aggressive.
SANCHEZ: They'll either scratch you or they'll use their mouth, but with a killer whale, it could be the end of you.
HURLEY: There's no doubt about it.
SANCHEZ: Wow. Thanks so much, Billy Hurley, senior vice president, Georgia Aquarium, for coming in and putting this in perspective for us.
Our coverage of both Shamu and Toyota. The hearing going on right now in Congress is going to continue.
In fact, we'll play for you what's been said directly to the grandson of the founder of Toyota. To his face, folks. Some of it is tough to watch, even a little uncomfortable, obviously, for Mr. Toyoda himself.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: This is an interesting piece of sound I'm going to share with you.
Welcome back, everyone, by the way. I'm Rick Sanchez, here in the world headquarters of CNN.
We're following a bunch of developing stories for you.
The one I want to tell you about right now though is this situation with -- and this is unprecedented -- the grandson of the founder of Toyota, a man who's very private, has come to the United States, walked into the halls of Congress, stood before a subcommittee of Congress, and apologized to the people of the United States for what's going on with his company. A very difficult time for him.
We're going to let you hear how he said it and why he said it in detail in just a bit. But first, let me let you hear what -- this is a Democratic congressman, Paul Kanjorski, of Pennsylvania, how he addressed Mr. Toyoda.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me just preface my remarks by saying we really need tort reform.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We should just forgive these companies and let them kill our people, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never mind. We just have a difference of opinion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right. That's not what I wanted you to hear.
In fact, even the explanation for that is way too long. But thanks anyway.
Let me bring in Rick Newman.
Rick Newman, I think the point that Paul Kanjorski was trying to make was, look, you've done a lot of damage to Americans. There's people out there who are concerned about their cars, there are people who have lost their lives. He said -- in fact, he said, "I'm embarrassed for you."
RICK NEWMAN, CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Yes. I can't --
SANCHEZ: This is a heck of a thing to say to the guy who runs Toyota.
Yes. I can't conjure of a sound bite to match what the congressman was likely to say. But, of course, they're putting these two executives and the CEO from Japan on the hot seat.
And Rick, I think we kind of know -- this is kind of a predictable ritual. The executives from Toyota are not there to say what a great company Toyota is. I mean, they're there to get flogged and to let the members of Congress have their say and --
SANCHEZ: Are they really? You really think so, Rick? You think they knew that they were going to be walking into the lion's den?
NEWMAN: If they didn't, they're foolish, because they should have watched the hearings for the Detroit automotive CEOs from a year ago, when they had to go to Congress with their own problems. It was a different problem, but when any CEO has to go before Congress to explain why their product or their services, if you are a Wall Street CEO, have deeply disappointed American consumers, you know it's going to go poorly for you. Absolutely.
SANCHEZ: Well, here's the problem. And I was having this conversation a little while ago with Mike Quincy (ph), and we had a bit of a disagreement on this. Why would you come forward if you don't really have a solution yet? Aren't you bound to look foolish and vulnerable?
NEWMAN: Well, I think Toyota feels that they do have a solution, and there does seem to be some difference of opinion on whether they actually do know what the problem is and how to fix it or not.
But what if they did not come -- I mean, part of the problem here is that Toyota has been letting everybody else tell its story. They've been letting the transportation secretary say we had to force Toyota to make these recalls.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
NEWMAN: Members of Congress have been leaking these documents that they got under subpoena, showing how they got around -- saved $100 million. I mean, one of Toyota's biggest problems is that they don't have a charismatic executive who can come out and say, OK, look, we blew it, and let me tell you how we're going to put this right, everybody. These are very awkward hearings, Rick.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Well, you know what? I'm just going to interrupt you because you just said that.
You know, one of the things they have been harping on or talking about or trying to sell us on is that they're now adding a new position at Toyota. He even used the term "American." We're going to have an American -- an American, he said, who's going to handle our U.S. product safety. "He's going to be our U.S. product safety executive," he said.
NEWMAN: And that's not very -- that's just not a very satisfying answer. It might actually be a good solution, but, you know, Toyota is a company run by technocrats.
It's an extremely efficient company, and they're just very logical people. And I think what's getting lost in the cultural translation, if you will here, is it would really help to have an executive with a little bit of swagger.
For example, you go to Congress, you do your penance, but there comes a time when maybe you fight back a little bit and you say, look, we understand we screwed up, but we have some really great products, we're going to make it right for our customers. And, you know, by the way, get off our case a little bit.
I mean, they're just not saying that. These are almost painful to watch in a way, Rick, with the translations. And clearly the Japanese executives don't really understand the context of a congressional hearing.
SANCHEZ: Rick, you're one of my favorite business guests that -- no, I'm not setting you up. I swear. I just want to know from you, as a guy who follows business trends as well as anyone in the country, how affected, how damaged is the Toyota brand, as far as you can tell, and what's it going to take to fix it?
NEWMAN: I think Toyota has two things going for it.
Number one, most car buyers don't watch congressional hearings. That's good news for Toyota.
Number two, Toyota still has millions of satisfied customers. I mean, most of its customers might be scratching their heads, wondering, what do I do about my car? But most of their customers aren't having any problem at all with their car that's unusual.
And I think, you know, a lot of dealers who are saying, we're wondering, where are all the people who are supposed to be rushing in to be getting these dangerous cars fixed? They're sitting at home saying I'll bring it in a few weeks. They're not all that worried about it.
So, I think Toyota needs the bad news to stop, and then they can start rebuilding the image of their company, which I think they're going to do.
SANCHEZ: Rick, good perspective from you. My thanks to you as well. Good to see you again. NEWMAN: Yes. Thanks for having me.
SANCHEZ: And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
You're not going to believe the new information that we just learned. You heard Brooke Baldwin mention this a little while ago, but we've now just not only confirmed it, but confirmed that it happened twice before.
This particular killer whale, Tillicum, has killed on two separate occasions prior to this occasion. And we're learning that it's because of that, that it wasn't used in performances. This is new -- was not used in performances.
This whale was kept in a pen on the side, and it apparently overreacted when it saw that trainer and took the trainer's life. What a story.
Let's go now to Washington. Wolf Blitzer's standing by. He's in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
