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Rick's List
Chile Devastated; Arizona Senate Race Turns Nasty; Killer Whale Probe; What's Next for Killer Whale?; White House Social Secretary Quits
Aired March 01, 2010 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Have you seen some of the ads going back and forth between J.D. Hayworth and John McCain? We have got our hands on a couple of them, and I'm going to show them in just a little bit. And we're also going to have this coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Here's what's making today's LIST.
The supermarket has been completely destroyed.
I'm taking you into the heart of the earthquake to translate for you what the news is there now.
Marie Osmond's son commits suicide. Why? Tragedy for an iconic American family.
Do you have any idea what a hospital charges you for a toothbrush, alcohol swabs, a pair of latex gloves?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any bill that's under $100,000, they don't look at the details.
SANCHEZ: One question: Why?
The lists you need to know about. Who is today's most intriguing person? Who is on the list you don't want to be on? You will find out as our national conversation on Twitter, on the air starts right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: So, we have tons of reaction that's coming in on everything having to do with reconciliation, what the Democrats are going to do. Have the Republicans been involved enough?
We're also following, yes, the situation with the president of the United States, the fact that his cholesterol is high, and everybody seems to be wanting to know something about why he's still smoking.
But the big story that we're following right now is still in Chile. I'm going to taking you through a series of videos. Here's the situation there now. It's very difficult in Chile, because there does seem to be an emphasis on looting -- and look at these pictures. People are actually going into a store, and then, after they get in the store itself, they start throwing down some of the items. Now, Obviously, there are some questions here about whether these are necessities. After all, people have been going without food and without electricity, and that's a difficult thing to have to do.
But, obviously, there are questions about excess. There's a question of brutality. There's a question of violence. And that's what we're hearing as well.
As we look at these pictures, I'm going to be translating for you the information as it's coming in from our sister network, CNN Chile, where we have our correspondents standing by.
Roger, let's go to the next piece of video, if we possibly can. I want to show the viewers exactly what we have now. And That's what we have been saying here.
This is...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: This is a woman describing what the situation is like there. She says -- she says: "They just dropped a bum in that area over there. They gave us permission."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: They...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "The government gave us permission to go in and -- from the stores -- and get whatever we need, as long as they're just necessities. But, then, all of a sudden, some other people showed up, and the situation got violent."
That's what she's describing on that scene. That just came in moments ago.
Now, here's the problem. As it's being described by many of the voices that we have heard there, as some of the pictures that we have seen, it looks like security is the big problem right now in Chile. And, as night falls, within the next couple of hours, it looks like it could be even worse.
Well, here's a fire that we just saw a little while ago. This is in -- Angie, this is in Concepcion?
All right, let's -- let's roll the video and see what information we can pick up. All right, let's back it up. That's all right. If we can back it up -- is that a live feed that's coming in right now? All right, that's all right. Take your time.
Is it back on, Rog? That's all right. I -- I think the viewers will understand that we're doing this raw. This is video coming in right now from some of the areas. This is the mayor now of Concepcion. All right. We have got -- we're back tot fire.
Any sound on this, Rog?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right, this is the mayor now. All right, this is interesting. This is the mayor of Concepcion. Let me translate what she says, because it's important.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "They have looted a supermarket in my town. The -- the looting -- the looting is somewhat less dramatic than yesterday, but now people are looting the -- the -- the people in trucks that are trying to distribute water. The homes of our firefighters are being looted.
"Now, the firefighters say, forget it. We're not going to work. We're going to have to stay at home and protect our property. And I am calling out to the government, please send us a contingent of security officials. They keep telling us they're going to send 600 or 700 people, but we're five hours away from nightfall. This is going to be a disaster.
"We need people to come to this town, or else people are going to start defending their own property. And you can only imagine how difficult that is going to be."
Now, we have got sound. This is interesting, because the mayor kind of makes the point there that things, she's afraid, are only going to get worse. There are reports that people are now arming themselves in certain -- we have got that tape. Let's -- let's go with this tape of people talking about defending themselves, defending their own homes, and defending their villages from outsiders who are coming in to loot and steal from them. Do it, Rog.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "Yes, I am -- we have seen -- we have seen people coming around. They have been breaking glass. They're using tube and metal. We are starting to lose hope" -- esperanza.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "What are you doing to try and get the people out of the buildings, the bodies?"
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "We are going inside there and seeing some of the people in the area, but -- all right. Let's pick up this guy right here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "People in our town are getting ready, because they say there's a gang is coming," an (SPEAKING SPANISH).
"The -- our -- my neighbors are preparing themselves for..."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "I have seen some officials here, maybe one or two trucks with some military officials, but -- but we're going to do whatever it takes to protect our own communities. We're going to arm ourselves. We are disposed, we are prepared to do whatever we have to do. And my name is (INAUDIBLE)."
SANCHEZ: Here's another -- here's another resident. See, this is the sense...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "We haven't seen enough police and we haven't seen enough military people. So, we're organizing ourselves. We're organizing the population."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "If with see people who don't fit here, strangers, (SPEAKING SPANISH), then..."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "What about you?"
"The only way we can defend -- that only way to defend outside is to do it ourselves. We're going to help ourselves in any way we can."
Look at the weapon that guy is holding.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "We're not going to let the delinquents come in here. I'm going to protect my son and I'm going to protect my house. Carlos Chandia (ph). I'm a doctor. I live at the end of the block. We came here to protect my mother-in-law's house."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "The -- the -- the biggest problem for us is not so much the water or the food. It's the insecurity."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ: "We have been trying to get the military officials over here. We are all armed now and ready to defend our community. There's a lot of panic. And we don't know what's going on. There's a lot of children on this -- we -- we don't know exactly what the instructions are, whether we're allowed to open fire against gang members and delinquents."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "But I can't go to work. I'm not going to the hospital. I am a doctor, and I could be helping, but I need to be here protecting my home and protecting my family. The situation" -- so, there you go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "He's trying to describe the situation."
Go ahead, Rog. That's -- that's a pretty good sense of what's going on there now.
So, these are the pictures. This is what's going on today in Chile. And, as you can see, CNN, as you might expect from us, as usual, we have some of the most vast coverage, because we have got a bureau in Santiago, and we have got a sister network there, CNN Chile, that covers this.
And then we have CNN Espanol. And we have got relationships with some of the different networks there, as well as our own correspondents. I think we have seven correspondents down there now filing information and filing stories.
So, what I will do for you over this next hour, if you will stay with us, is, I will -- I will just dip in from time to time. I will bring you the information. I will let you know what's going on. I will translate to try and get the information as it's being -- as it's being produced.
And, together, we will follow along to see how this situation ends up. It sounds like, from everything that we're seeing, that the big concern is their security. People are concerned for their lives, concerned for their property.
Also, this. Yes, this is amazing as well. This is what happens when hurricane-force winds meet high tide...
(COUGHING)
SANCHEZ: Pardon me -- along the coast of Spain and France. The destruction is almost as bad as the tsunami that hit coastal Chile after the earthquake.
These are compelling images that are coming in as well. And I'm going to show them to you. I'm going to show them to you. I'm going to let them play for some -- for a little bit, so you can get the full scope of the damage that's being caused in parts of Europe. That's ahead.
And it's always been about family for Marie Osmond, in fact, for all of the Osmond, ever since she became a star with her singing brothers in the 1970s. Now, have you heard about what's going on today with the Osmonds? She's coping with a family tragedy. Her teenage son has committed suicide.
We're going to bring you the latest on this story and all the reaction that we have coming in, in this next half-hour.
And it's getting nasty in the Arizona Senate race -- you know the one -- that could end John McCain's political career? J.D. Hayworth? Is it possible? Most experts say no, but we have gotten our hands on some ads that we want to show you that kind of tell the story, as they usually do.
Stay right there. I'm Rick Sanchez. This is the LIST. And we're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: The place where Chile has been hit the hardest by this earthquake and the one that is hardest to get the information from is the coast, because, remember, the earthquake really hit along the coast there, which is why we have been talking about tsunamis on Saturday throughout our coverage.
But it's hard to get to those villages on the coast, because they're remote and because many of the roads have been torn up. You can't get to them.
I know somebody who has gotten there, usually the most intrepid reporter on all of CNN's staff. It's Karl Penhaul. He is standing by now to us into a place that most people haven't even seen yet.
So, Karl, get on with it. Look forward to this.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is the town of Talcahuano, a fishing village. And you're right that government aid workers have not seen this place so far, according to the habitants. They say they're in desperate need.
But I just want to give you a little bit of a scene-setter. This is Main Street in Talcahuano. And look at what's on Main Street. That's a 70-ton fishing vessel. In normal times, that is fishing for sardines. And, before this earthquake, that was anchored about 600 yards out that way.
But then what happened with this earthquake, according to the fishermen and according to the local inhabitants, is that, about an hour after the earthquake, two tsunami waves swept ashore, more than six, six-and-a-half-feet high, they say, and that's what it brought ashore.
Now, the people, being fishermen and having had experiences of a horrible earthquake back in 1960, they ran straight out of their homes and headed for higher ground. And they say, as they were heading to higher ground, members of the Navy and, they say, also firefighters were there with megaphones saying, hey, go home, there's no problem, there will be no tsunami wave.
They chose not to listen to the authorities, and you can see real damage caused by those waves about an hour after the earthquake was. Look down this street. That is the kind of damage. We have got hundreds of yards of fishing nets that have been dragged to shore. We have got the debris of buildings that have been destroyed, the facades, the fronts of homes have been just washed away.
And there is thick sludge here as well. You can see some of these people very kindly waiting in the background for us as well. These are people who have been working in the course of the day to fish out their possessions from what are left of their homes, from what's left of the sludge, some mattresses there, because they have gone to a different place now to live. They're living in higher ground, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Karl, I'm wondering -- and I ask this without the scientific knowledge, I suppose, that some people would have -- but I remember, Saturday, people describing this. They said (SPEAKING SPANISH). They kept saying that. "It looks like the town fell into the ocean."
Maybe they were just describing that, because of what the stories that have been told to them about the coast. But is there -- is there any sense that part of the beaches or part of the coastline has been depleted by this earthquake?
PENHAUL: It's very difficult to get the full, broad picture, because, as you were saying earlier on, a lot of those routes are now inaccessible, or certainly very difficult to pass.
But, even in this town, the coastline, the beach line has changed so much, and -- and bits that shouldn't be here, such as these ships, are in the wrong place. And, so, for that very reason, people are saying that it -- it -- it seems like part of the coast has been washed away, or part of the land has been washed away.
But it's certainly a -- a very big deal for these people, who live by the sea. They are fishermen. They know the lay of the land, and they say, thanks to goodness they didn't listen to the advice of authorities and go back home, because they say that, if they had done that, hundreds would now be dead, Rick.
SANCHEZ: That's amazing.
And, unlike the United States, where we concentrate our populations on the coasts, and you would find a zillion condos up and down the beaches there forming these megalopolises, as we tend to call, there, in Chile, these -- these -- these fishing villages, as you describe them, they're not very populated, thank goodness, right?
PENHAUL: They're not huge. I mean, the town of Concepcion, which is about a half-an-hour's drive away, is much bigger.
But they call it that the greater Concepcion (AUDIO GAP). That's the big Concepcion area. And (AUDIO GAP) hundred thousand people. Now, that includes these much smaller fishing villages. But the people here, you know, there are a lot of houses here. And you can imagine that it would have done huge damage, both the earthquake and those tsunami waves, if people had stayed in their homes.
But, as I say, because they live by the sea and because they have had past experiences, they followed their gut instinct, and -- and they headed up.
And I will -- I will show you here, and we will zoom around here. They headed up to this green hill over there covered by trees. They ran out. Now, they had an hour to do so, because the earthquake hits, and the first wave comes about an hour later, so they all run up that hill to get out of the way of these two- and three-meter waves that were lashing onshore, and bringing everything.
But all this was going on in the dark, Rick. And I said to one of the guys here, I said, what was it like? He said, I couldn't see anything. It was black as night as you can imagine. There was a fog out there as well.
He said, what we heard was ships being washed through the town...
SANCHEZ: Wow.
PENHAUL: ... rattling against the buildings, rattling against concrete buildings. And then what followed were shipping containers.
There are scores of shipping containers strewn around here as well. And they heard them rattling against the buildings. Some of the buildings, you can not only see the tide mark of the tsunami wave, but you can also see holes and gashes that have been made by the boats banging against the fronts of those homes, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Wow. I figured, if somebody would be able to be the first to get to one of these coastal towns, and tell us exactly what's been going on there, since all of us have been wanting to know, it would be Karl Penhaul. And he's proven me right.
Karl, good job. Good reporting. My thanks to you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: At the store, how much does a bottle of Tylenol cost? Ten dollars for 100 pills. Well, we know of someone who, at the hospital...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: This is unbelievable.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COHEN: ... was charged $140 for one Tylenol.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: One Tylenol, one hundred -- this is unbelievable, folks. And that's just one example of the outrageous way that hospitals are covering their costs at your expense. Elizabeth Cohen is going to be here in just a little bit, and, in fact, she's joining me with more billing horror stories, and why.
Also ahead, Senator John McCain is talking up a storm, and we're listening very closely. Did you hear him over the weekend? Is Senator McCain playing it safe, or is he trying to make a more concerted appeal to conservatives?
And how about that J.D. Hayworth? Stay there. This gets -- fun?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Man, you guys are jacked up about this show. I'm looking at my Twitter board over here, and it's about to explode, there's so much information. Everybody wants to get in on the report that Elizabeth Cohen filed just a little while ago about the president and the smoking. Everybody seems to have an opinion.
We will be talking to those -- or sharing some of those comments in just a little bit.
But I'm so glad you're here, our dear medical correspondent, because Elizabeth has also filed a story I want to tell you about. This story is about how screwed up our health care system is. And, so, it's so uncontrollable that they have to, like, rob Peter to pay Paul.
And, as a result, when you go to the doctor, you might see on your bill -- and you, of course, don't even look at it half the time, because your insurance company pays for it. But you will see that they charged you $140 for a -- for a Tylenol, et cetera.
COHEN: Right.
SANCHEZ: She does a show-and-tell that I want you to watch. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COHEN: When you or I go shopping for a toothbrush, how much do we pay? $2, $3, maybe $4. Well, guess what one hospital once charged a patient for a toothbrush? $1,000. Can you believe it? $1,000 for a toothbrush.
Well, you know who ends up paying for that? You and I. We end up paying for it. It comes out of our pocket in one way or another.
And that's not the only crazy hospital costs I have run into. Come on, come with me.
(voice-over): And at the store, how much does a bottle of Tylenol cost? $10 for 100 pills.
(on camera): Well, we know of someone at the hospital who was charged $140 for one Tylenol. Can you believe it? $140 for this.
Now, here's a box of disposable gloves. When you buy them here at this store, they come out to 24 cents a pair. But I know of a hospital that charged $53 for a pair of gloves. That's right, $53 for a pair of disposable gloves. What the heck is going on here?
So, I'm here in the home office of a medical billing advocate. This is Cindy Holtzman and she helps people go through all of these crazy charges. And she has all sorts of examples.
I have got to tell you, Cindy, this is one of my favorite ones. This is just like a little alcohol prep swab. We've all had these. How much did a hospital charge for this one?
CINDY HOLTZMAN, BILLING ADVOCATE: $23 apiece.
COHEN: $23 for this little tiny piece of cotton.
HOLTZMAN: And on one bill there were 44 of them. It becomes very expensive.
COHEN: Oh, my goodness. But this isn't even the craziest thing you've ever seen. Tell me about one of your crazier charges.
HOLTZMAN: Well, recently I had somebody that was charged for 41 IV bags when she went to the E. R. for a two-hour visit.
COHEN: Oh, yes, you heard that right. A woman went to the emergency room with a migraine headache and they gave her one bag of saline and then they charged her for 41 bags of saline to the tune of $4,182. Now, the really crazy thing about this is that her insurance company actually paid this bill. They didn't even question it. So why did her insurance company pay for this when it was, obviously, wrong.
HOLTZMAN: There's not many people working at these companies any more. They're very busy and usually any kind of bill that's under $100,000, they don't look at the detail.
COHEN: So, they just write a check?
HOLTZMAN: They just write a check.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: That's a -- such a well-told story...
COHEN: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: ... and so simply told. You just -- here's bottle. This is what it costs. There's -- what are -- what are the hospitals saying about this...
(CROSSTALK) COHEN: All right. The hospital that charged for $4,000...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Yes.
COHEN: ... you know, a $4,000 overcharge, they did fix it when the patient brought it to their attention, but they wouldn't talk to us about it.
And then the insurance company that just said, oh, we will pay for that, even though it was wrong, they also wouldn't talk to us for this story.
SANCHEZ: Well, why do they have to charge so much for these things? I know, in some cases, it's a mistake, but they generally need to charge somewhere, right?
COHEN: Well, I mean, I think a lot of hospitals would say, look, we provide a lot of uninsured care. I mean, people come in here and get entire surgeries and stay for weeks, and we don't make a penny off of that.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But that -- that's an -- that's an interesting point that you make, because a lot of people out there are saying, well, we don't need health care reform. I have got my health care, and it's fine, and -- well, you're actually, right now...
COHEN: You're paying for it.
SANCHEZ: .. you're paying for...
COHEN: You're paying for it, right.
SANCHEZ: ... all the people out there who are uninsured.
COHEN: Right.
SANCHEZ: If there's 30 million Americans who are uninsured, they're called indigent care. Every time they walk into a hospital and say, I have got this, I have got that, they have got to take care of them. And then they put a surcharge on your bill and my bill who do have insurance.
COHEN: Right. You're paying hundreds of dollars a year, if not thousands of dollars a year, to pay for people who don't have insurance, because, well, they charge ridiculous rates for all sorts of things to make up for it.
SANCHEZ: Right.
COHEN: Yes, it really is -- incredible.
SANCHEZ: Now, whether they should be doing it by charging $140 for Tylenol is questionable.
COHEN: That's right. That's right.
(LAUGHTER)
COHEN: And, as you said, some of this is just a mistake.
SANCHEZ: Right.
COHEN: And what has been interesting is, when patients challenge them on this...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
COHEN: ... they do tend to correct it, because they get it. They're like, oh, sorry. We made a mistake. Let's fix it.
It's just that nobody hardly ever challenges them on it.
SANCHEZ: Did you send the president a tweet yet about his smoking?
COHEN: No, I didn't.
SANCHEZ: You should.
COHEN: But I should. You're right.
SANCHEZ: You should.
COHEN: That's a great idea.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
COHEN: I'm going to do that.
SANCHEZ: You said it on the air. Might as well put it out there, by...
COHEN: That's right. Right. You are right.
SANCHEZ: ... by golly.
COHEN: Right. I should be -- I should have the guts to say it to his face, as it were.
(LAUGHTER)
COHEN: You're right.
SANCHEZ: Thanks for joining us.
COHEN: Right.
SANCHEZ: Elizabeth Cohen.
Up next: this -- all eyes on Chile, but guess what? Spain and France have also been trying to cope with a natural disaster of their own. We have got the pictures to prove it.
And we're going to be right back with that.
I'm Rick Sanchez. This is the LIST. So glad that you're with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Governor David Paterson, he's jeopardizing the Democrats' hold on power in New York with his string of scandals and questionable judgment.
There he is. You saw him during our show. He came out and said, I'm too far down in the polls, this is too much of a difficult situation and I'm not going to run. So that's interesting.
We're going to give you the reaction in just a little bit to all of this.
Stay right there.
I'm Rick Sanchez. This is THE LIST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: You know the story. We broke in yesterday and brought it to you, the killer whale that decided yesterday that it was going to kill its trainer. It was a bizarre story.
SeaWorld came out today and talked about their investigation. And the interesting -- the really interesting part of this story is we later found out that this whale had already killed two other people in the past, that they generally didn't use it in their performances, their shows. They kind of kept it in the back, but they did do some things with it.
What did they do and what are they doing now? And what really happened?
That's why Brooke Baldwin is here. She's going to take us through this story.
What's going on?
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there are so many questions, and I know the days are kind of blurred.
It actually happened on Wednesday. And then today, you're right, SeaWorld, the president, came forward and he started talking about what exactly happened.
But first, we just got some pictures in. I want to get these to you. These are from one of our iReporters who wants to remain anonymous.
But you're looking -- and this is Tilikum. And as we hopefully can get through some of the pictures --
SANCHEZ: Tilikum is the name of the whale.
BALDWIN: Tilikum is the name of the whale, Tilly for short. And Dawn Brancheau was a 40-year-old trainer, one of the most respected trainers. There she is minutes before this whale essentially took her under.
Let me back up and tell you that the news out of today's news conference is the fact that these shows at the famed Shamu Stadium in Orlando specifically will resume tomorrow at 11:00 in the morning. But here's the big change.
The trainers will not be in the water with any of these killer whales pending this investigation that's undergoing right now. And, of course, this protocol review.
Now, the SeaWorld president will not say -- he was asked -- he will not say if Dawn Brancheau violated any rules, but says changes will need to be made.
Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM ATCHISON, PRESIDENT & CEO, SEAWORLD PARKS & ENTERTAINMENT: You know, at the end of the day, this is a terrible incident. As I mentioned earlier, I knew Dawn very well. Very well personally.
She was an amazing, dynamic woman, and a very, very talented trainer. So, the fact that this incident occurred for the first time in our 46- year history and occurred with such a talented individual, absolutely, we have to look at everything we do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right. There's a lot of questions as to how this woman died.
Do we have a better idea? Because yesterday you and I were going back and forth on this thing.
BALDWIN: We do. Well, officially from, you know, Orange County Fire and Rescue, they listed it as multiple traumatic injuries and drowning. But what really did happen?
Actually, her mentor has seen this video. Here's the video. And Dawn, at one point, she gets down into this four-inch deep water, so she's not actually swimming with Tilly, but she is really close. And this trainer explains when she made -- there she is, right next to this whale. And right here is where she made this fatal mistake.
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THAD LACINAK, FMR. HEAD, SEAWORLD ANIMAL TRAINING: She wasn't obviously watching what she was doing with her ponytail. And her ponytail drifted into the water, and Tilikum, who was laying on his back while she was rubbing him down, he grabbed her ponytail and pulled her into the water. That's as simple as it gets.
Dawn, if she was standing here with me right now, would tell you that that was her mistake.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: We have heard from members of her family. In fact, even her sister --
SANCHEZ: Ponytail?
BALDWIN: Ponytail got in the way. And we don't know if that was part of the protocol, that you're supposed to have short hair, long hair. Again, that's part of what they're going to be looking at, and that's a change we may see.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
BALDWIN: But she didn't have children. Apparently, her sister said the whales were considered kind of her children. She had 16-plus years working with these massive mammals. She called it the greatest job on earth.
In fact, we dug up some video, thanks to our Orlando affiliate, WESH, this interview with Dawn from 10 years ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a tough job, isn't it?
DAWN BRANCHEAU, SEAWORLD: Yes, we really do go through a lot of physical exertion. You can see in the show, we do a lot of deep water work, breath holds. Very high energy behavior with the animals. Obviously, they're giving out a lot of energy, too, but we're working together and having a lot of fun as well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you doing here? Look at that.
BRANCHEAU: That's actually a sit-down, so I'm actually sitting on the nose of a killer whale, and she's blasting me up throughout the water. And those are some porpoise behavior. So you can see we're doing deep behaviors in the water with the animals, kind of accentuating the power and strength of the killer whale.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Here's the problem though. The problem is this killer whale has not killed for the first time yesterday. Two other times it has killed people.
BALDWIN: Two prior incidents, one at SeaWorld, one up in British Columbia. And, you know, one big question, what about the fate of Tilikum? The president of SeaWorld said a major part of our attraction at SeaWorld, a special member of the family, a member that needs special attention and will remain.
SANCHEZ: Even though it's killed three people now. Aren't they going to put it in a certain setting, a special setting, something to make --
BALDWIN: For now, it's in its own holding pool, but later on, we don't know. That's part of this investigation.
SANCHEZ: I'll tell you, there's a lot of questions left here --
BALDWIN: A lot of people are talking.
SANCHEZ: -- because of this. And, you know, one of them has to do with this whale. I mean, if you have a dog and it bites all your neighbors, they put it down.
BALDWIN: But some people would say this is not a dog.
SANCHEZ: Let's do this -- stick around. All right?
BALDWIN: OK.
SANCHEZ: SeaWorld, as you just heard, wants to keep the killer whale. A little unsure about exactly what they're going to do. They say it's the for the animal's best interest. That's up for debate.
In fact, when can I come right back, I'm going to ask a representative from PETA how wild animals should be treated after attacks on humans.
And then later, the White House social secretary and close friend of the Obamas stepping down. Her decision or the president's decision? Is she a casualty of the White House party-crashing scandal?
That and a whole lot more.
Stay right there. THE LIST scrolls on.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Lisa Lange is with the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. We all know it as PETA.
Lisa, how are you?
LISA LANGE, VICE PRESIDENT OF COMMUNICATIONS, PETA: I'm doing well. How are you, Rick?
SANCHEZ: Good.
Hey, what do you make of this thing? What do you make of this whale of a story? Pardon the pun.
LANGE: Well, it's a tragedy that didn't' have to happen. And as you stated in the earlier block, this is an animal who has killed before. But it isn't just about this one animal. All of these animals in marine amusement parks suffer either physically, and always psychologically. Some of them lash out, like this animal has done several times, and many others have as well. And all of them suffer depression, lethargy, they suffer from living in concrete polls, which for them is the equivalent of a bathtub.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you --
LANGE: They're living in chlorine.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you a question. And obviously you make good points, and I think a lot of people respect how hard PETA fights for the protection of animals, which most people of course would agree with.
But if this were my pet -- or so many Americans have pets -- if this your pet, someone's pet, and it was ferocious, or aggressive, and had attacked a child or a neighbor, and any time you came near it, it growled and it threatened to bite, would PETA suggest it should be put down?
LANGE: You know, you have to really look at those on a case-by-case basis. I think that there are instances where an animal has to be euthanized if it's a domestic animal. It has to be euthanized because that animal is not safe to other animals and people. But in this instance, when we're talking about wild animals, they shouldn't be in captivity in the first place. And so if you want to remove the danger --
SANCHEZ: Yes, but it is. But it is.
LANGE: Right.
SANCHEZ: But that's why I'm making this analogy though, Lisa. I'm thinking to myself, if we tend to do that with animals and everyone says it's OK, shouldn't you do it with an animal that's killed three people, or should we at least make that a part of the conversation?
LANGE: Well, no, because we have an option here. And what has to happen not only with Tilikum, but with all the existing marine mammals in captivity, is we need to release them to seaside sanctuaries. And this is where SeaWorld needs to be spending its money.
These animals have literally done their time. And it is possible to do. It was done with Keiko, the Orca who was used in the "Free Willy" movies. He lived out the last five years of his life in a sanctuary and was able to swim free in Icelandic and Norwegian waters.
BALDWIN: But Lisa, if I may, I read up on Keiko, and of course we all remember "Free Willy," and everybody was debating, should we free Willy? They finally took Keiko from Oregon, out to Iceland, where it was kept in sort of this private area until they finally unleashed it.
But then there are the reports that this animal was so used to being around humans, that it would actually seek out human activity, it would allow people to get on its back. And so, finally, it sort of died a quiet death, and there was a lot of debate to whether or not this animal should have ever been set free.
LANGE: Well, the only debate and the only questions came from the industry that makes money off keeping these animals in small swimming pools. Everybody else, and scientists included, agreed that he relearned how to catch fish. He swam free.
And yes, he did still check in with people. He had been in captivity so long, he enjoyed human companionship. But the beauty of this situation he had the choice. He was swimming in the ocean, he was able to catch fish again, he was able to swim with other Orcas. And that's what has to happen with all of these animals.
SANCHEZ: But, you know, here's the problem. Every expert that we checked with today -- and we called a bevy of them -- said if you put this particular animal back in the wild, you're basically killing it. He won't be able to survive.
LANGE: He wouldn't if you put him in the ocean tomorrow. It's a process. And they didn't just release Keiko to fend for himself.
They taught him in Oregon how to live with and how to hunt for live fish. This would have to happen with all these animals. It's an investment. It's an investment that SeaWorld owes to these animals right now.
That's the answer to this. They can't and they shouldn't --
SANCHEZ: And close the park. So you just say close the entire park down, no one should see animals performing or on display?
LANGE: Close the marine mammal portion of this, absolutely.
SANCHEZ: OK.
LANGE: The thing is, when it comes to kids, the better lesson is that these animals have families of their own and they deserve to live a life that's free. That's the better lesson to kids.
SANCHEZ: All right. Spoken like a true PETA representative.
Lisa, thanks so much. Appreciate you taking the time to talk to us.
LANGE: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: And thank you, Brooke, for taking us through that as well and for filing that report for us.
BALDWIN: Sure.
SANCHEZ: All right. Let's talk about this. A member of Obama's inner circle has stepped down. You're going to remember who we're talking about here -- Desiree Rogers.
Remember the party crashers, the ones who were allowed to go into the White House when they really shouldn't have, and someone should have been checking them at the door? The person who most agree allowed that to happen is the one who's stepping down.
Was she really let go?
Also, up next, champagne, cigars and gold medals. The women's hockey team thought celebrating like boys on center ice was a great idea. The problem is even boys probably would have gotten in trouble for doing this.
All right, ladies. You're fantastic, you won the gold medal. But then? Right? Right?
BALDWIN: I don't know. I don't know.
SANCHEZ: You're not going to commit?
BALDWIN: Wait for the video. Wait for the video.
SANCHEZ: We're going to have it in just a little bit.
Stay right there.
This is THE LIST. Let's scroll it on.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
Have you ever wondered what the Energizer Bunny would look like in an episode of "Cops"?
Let's do "Fotos."
To Fort Worth, Texas, we go -- rolling police chase. He's out, he's down, he's up, he's gone. Over the woods and through the river to grandmother's house.
BALDWIN: Something like that.
SANCHEZ: Something like that.
It turns out this fellow was wanted on a parole violation for a burglary charge. He eventually gave up.
I mean, it's like -- look at it. Now he's pushing the car.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Oh, no! Oh, down goes Frazier!
BALDWIN: And he's caught.
SANCHEZ: OK. More police action in a minute.
Meanwhile, this. Police take down a guy after a high-speed chase, throw him in the back of a cruiser. But watch this from another car's dash cam. The suspect gets out of the back, jumps in the driver's seat. And zoom, he's gone.
Watch it again. Still wearing handcuffs, he's out. He's back in.
BALDWIN: No, he didn't.
SANCHEZ: He floors it. It didn't last long. The guy wrecked that police car about a few minutes later, and added a couple of charges to the list. Police say the child locks weren't engaged on the back doors in the car.
BALDWIN: Shame, shame.
SANCHEZ: Oops.
All right. Speaking of the Canadian women's hockey team -- were we? We were.
BALDWIN: Yes, we were.
SANCHEZ: The players have some explaining to do because of these pictures. By the way, these are the most athletic, the most wonderful, the most incredible athletes I've seen. I was fascinated by them, watching them yesterday. But then I went to bed and they didn't.
BALDWIN: What about some celebratory cigars with champagne?
SANCHEZ: Yes. They came out with the champagne, the cigars.
BALDWIN: Come on.
SANCHEZ: This is after they had been given the gold medals. The stadium, everybody was gone. They got a rousing ovation.
They just didn't want the moment to end. So they sat out there and pretended to be smoking cigars, and they drank champagne, and now they could be in a little bit of trouble.
BALDWIN: Uh-oh.
SANCHEZ: The team apologized for any embarrassment they caused, saying they were caught up in the emotion of the gold.
Oh well. Gold medal fever, it wraps up today's "Fotos del Dia."
We're going to be right back. Wolf Blitzer's going to be joining me.
Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Take a look at the tweets that I'm getting. This first one, man, they're all over me.
It says, "Opaque, not transparent." But then it says, "Leave the Orca alone. You're trying to get him killed. Stop it!"
OK.
The next one says, "How many times will the authorities let this whale kill people before it steps in and forces their hand?"
So, look, there's a lot of folks out there watching, and they all seem to have different opinions about this thing. But definitely a lot of folks are talking about that story.
Wolf Blitzer is joining me. He's going to be talking about a lot of things as well.
Let's start with -- hey, what do you know about this situation at the White House? Remember we covered this story, when those folks tried to get into the White House? And it appears that Desiree Rogers, who was, like, the social secretary at the White House --
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, social secretary.
SANCHEZ: She was kind of the one who screwed up, right?
BLITZER: Well, she is was in charge of the Social Office for the first lady. And she acknowledges she should have had representatives of the Social Office at the various gates when the Salahis made their way through.
They got their way through the first checkpoint. The Secret Service let them.
Had there been somebody from the Social Secretary's Office going through the list, they wouldn't have seen the name on the list, maybe they wouldn't have gotten through. The Salahis apparently said they were on the list, and so the Secret Service said they'll go to the next staging point where they assumed she had already been on the list on the first staging point, and they eventually got through, and that was that.
SANCHEZ: And now she's resigning, because essentially -- you wonder, though, is she resigning, or was the heat put on the Obama administration to say, you know what, adios?
BLITZER: I don't think a lot of people remember it. I think -- my own hunch is that she got -- she was upset in the fallout from all of this, the White House had basically decided to muzzle her. They weren't letting her go out and speak, and it wasn't that much fun for her anymore.
She's a very intelligent woman, very powerful, strong in her own way, did a lot of important stuff on the outside. And I guess it was just too many restrictions on her. In the end, she said, you know what? If they're not going to let me do this job the way I want to do the job and have some sort of visibility, then she was just going to step back and do something else, which, good for her. We wish her the best.
SANCHEZ: Yes. Exactly. Hey, good for her. She'll probably -- I mean, from all indications, she's a very talented and a very --
BLITZER: She'll do just fine. She's a very, very smart woman. I know her. And I'm sure she's going to do just fine.
SANCHEZ: Wolf Blitzer with "THE SITUATION ROOM" coming up in just a little bit.
We'll be looking forward to it, Wolf. Thanks so much for joining us with the info.
BLITZER: Thanks, Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right. Appreciate it.
We're going to be coming back in just a little bit. I want to tell you what's gone in Cuba. Folks in south Florida who are Cuban exiles are up in arms, and they're pointing their finger at the Castro brothers.
I'll tell you why as soon as we come back. It has to do with that guy and a hunger strike.
Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: I told you I'm going to make a commitment to follow most of these stories not so much from the Washington perspective, but from the "you" perspective. That's why I have RICK'S LIST. That's why I follow Twitter and I see what you all are saying to me throughout the show, all 130,000 of you.
Look at this one here, just at the very top.
I asked people, "Are your premiums going up?" Because I'm hearing premiums are going up all over the country on health care.
"Mine just went up 35 percent yesterday, and that's with $15,000 out of pocket exposure."
So stories like that continue to come in, and I'm going to continue to share them, because those are the stories that really matter.
By the way, two members of Congress want the president to know what's happened to that man that you see right there. That's Orlando Tamayo.
He died Tuesday night after a hunger strike in a Cuban prison. He was buried Thursday amid government crackdowns to stop antigovernment protests. Miami's exiled Cuban community is up in arms about this. He was one of 75 dissidents, Tamayo was.
Remember when the Cuban government picked up a whole bunch of folks in 2003 for actively working in defiance of the Castro government? The official charge, by the way, according to Amnesty International -- and we checked -- was contempt, public disorder and disobedience.
Now, Tamayo's mother says that her son was repeatedly beaten by prison guards. He went on a hunger strike on December 3rd.
How will this affect warming U.S./Cuban relations? Well, Republican Ileana Ros-Lehtinen and Mario Diaz-Balart say they want President Obama to "stand with the Cuban people and stop appeasing the Cuban regime with direct talks and unilateral concessions." So, these are two Republican lawmakers who are taking a shot at the Obama administration, saying it's going too easy on the Castro government.
Orlando Tamayo, interestingly enough, was a plumber and a bricklayer by trade. Dead, some would argue, for speaking out against the government.
There you have it.
It's been a good week, folks. Thanks so much for being with us.
I'm Rick Sanchez. RICK'S LIST returns next Monday.
Now off to my colleague and friend, Wolf Blitzer, in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
