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Rick's List
Health Care Reform: Counting the Vote
Aired March 19, 2010 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Not only can we afford to do this; we can't afford not to do this.
MICHAEL STEELE, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: That's a lie.
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: Republicans can't beat this bill, but the American people can.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: When we bring the bill to the floor, we will have a significant victory for the American people.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Kill the bill!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For way too long, far too many Americans have had their health and wellness suffer because they are uninsured.
SEN. SCOTT BROWN (R), MASSACHUSETTS: While it's certainly important to provide care for those people, I believe that individual states could do it better.
OBAMA: We are going to do something historic this weekend.
ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of RICK'S LIST, "Health Care Reform: Counting the Vote."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And that's exactly what we're going to be doing. Hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez.
We have got so much information for you, so much counting to do for you, who's in, who's out, as we move along, and as we also have a lot of smart folks who are going to be talking to you, Brianna Keilar, Jessica Yellin, Tony Blankley, Michael Steele, Congressman Barney Frank, Congressman John Boccieri, Maria Cardona, Mark Preston, Jeff Toobin.
And, of course, we have got stakeout shots set out right now, where we're going to be watching for you, where we expect to bring you the news as it happens, when congressmen or congresswomen go to the microphone to announce their intention to vote for or vote against this bill. So, we're at the point in this coverage now where things might be happening, and, as they do, you will be able to see them.
As a matter of fact, we talk about lists all the time, right? Well, let's talk about some of those lists, if we possibly can. Look, this is maybe one of the most important lists of all. This is a list of eight people who have moved on this measure today right there.
And there's one that may be moving in just a little bit. So, I'm going to take you through the eight people who have gone either from no to yes or undecided or undeclared to no or to yes. This is important, because that's what is going to decide ultimately whether this thing moves or not.
And, look, you can overthink this thing all you want, folks, but this is essentially how I have been able to break this down for you. I think you can see the numbers right there -- 216 is what they need to get to, right? That's real simple, right? We don't need to overthink this, right?
Let's count the nos. Only -- look, and don't think, well, why are you counting the nos? Why aren't you counting the yeses? We're counting the nos, right, if you're going to look at Congress, because this side right now because of the complexity of the yeses, is easier to count than the yeses, right?
It makes no difference. The goal is you want to get to 216. If you figure these are the opponents, there's 207 opponents right now saying now. They still need nine more to get to 216. If they get to 216, in other words, if they get those nine, that means that they're going to be able to block the measure, block the measure for now, keeping the folks who want health care reform from being able to pass it.
So, let's go through that one more time. Then, of course, there is the president of the United States. The president of the United States, as you know, is determined, he says, to get this done. But maybe not since the campaign have we seen a president that sounded like this president did today in Virginia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: If you believe that it's right, then you've got to help us finish this fight. You've got to stand with me just like you did three years ago and make some phone calls and knock on some doors, talk to your parents, talk to your friends. Do not quit, do not give up, we keep on going.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: We are going to get this done. We are going to make history. We are going to fix health care in America with your help.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: God bless you, and God bless the United States of America.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right. Welcome back. What I want to do now is -- sorry. What I want to do now is go back to this list. And I was talking about this list just a little while ago, right?
Here we go. I apologize for having to take that thing out of my ear, by the way, but I'm -- it's interesting. What I'm hearing is myself, but five seconds later.
These are the folks who moved today. Baron Hill went to undeclared. Zachary Space went to undeclared. Jim Costa went to undeclared. Stephen Lynch went to a firm no. Charlie Wilson went to yes. Dina Titus went to yes. Carol Shea-Porter went to yes. John Boccieri a few hours ago went to yes.
Then there's Henry Cuellar of Texas. He remains undeclared at this point, but I have just gotten some information. As we move through this newscast -- and, again, folks, a lot of this stuff is going to be fluid. We are going to move as we go and as we get the information.
Brianna Keilar is standing by right now.
And, Brianna, I understand, if I'm hearing correctly -- let me put this thing back in my ear again -- if I'm hearing correctly, that you have Henry Cuellar with you. Is that right?
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I do. And he's one of the rank-and-file Democrats getting a whole lot of attention, maybe more than they are used to getting, Rick.
Congressman Cuellar, is it true that you are -- are you actually avoiding calls from the White House? Is this true?
REP. HENRY CUELLAR (D), TEXAS: Well, I certainly want to make sure that I make up my mind based on my district, because, at the end of the day, that's the district that I represent. As a family man, I got two kids, two young daughters. I want to know how that affects families that have insurance and don't have insurance.
KEILAR: But you have gotten calls from the White House that you haven't returned, right?
CUELLAR: That's correct. And, simply, with all due respect to the White House, this is a decision that I want to make, talking to my constituents, as to what's in the best interests of my district.
KEILAR: Now, you have been described by local reports as leaning yes. After those CBO numbers, the price tag and the numbers about deficit reduction of this bill came out, you said -- quote -- "that it looks very promising."
And when the House passed its health care bill in November, you voted for it.
CUELLAR: Right.
KEILAR: So, what does that mean? I mean, how are you undeclared still about this?
(CROSSTALK)
CUELLAR: Right.
Well, first of all, what I supported was the House bill, which was very different from the Senate bill. The Senate bill, as you know, had all these special deals, which I totally disagree with. The CBO, as a Blue Dog Democrat, the CBO numbers talking about eliminating the deficit in the next 10 years to $138 billion, that's promising.
But the other thing is, back in November, I was told, read the bill before you vote on it, and I'm reading the bill.
KEILAR: But the reconciliation bill would strip that special deal out, or at least give it to every state. Does that make you feel better?
CUELLAR: Yes, that makes me feel better. But I still want to read the rest of it, because, remember, this is probably one of the most important votes that we will have in our history. And I want to make sure I do the right thing for my congressional district.
KEILAR: When you get to yes? How long until does that take?
CUELLAR: Well, I'm still doing the reading, but I have been talking about border security. We have had a classified hearing. I'm getting there.
KEILAR: OK. All right, Congressman Cuellar, thank you so much for your time.
CUELLAR: Thank you so much, Brianna.
KEILAR: I know you have to run. We really appreciate it.
But, Rick, just as an example, you can see there, getting a whole lot of attention.
SANCHEZ: Do we chalk him down on this list as leaning yes?
KEILAR: Yes. He didn't disagree with that, did he? No, so I think what you heard coming from (AUDIO GAP) how this is very promising. He voted yes for health care before.
I mean, the signs are there that he's leaning yes, but what he also told me off camera is that he is getting a ton of text messages from his constituents, and he's trying to figure out exactly where they are at as well, because even though a lot of members -- you heard he's still reading the bill, Rick. It's 153 pages. It's not as long as some of these other bills, but what the next step is for a lot of these members is to, then, sort of get the temperature check back home. SANCHEZ: I tried to read it last night when it first came over, and I ended up with an enormous headache. This thing is written -- it is. Did you try and read it? It's legalese. It's like, where's the English in this thing?
(LAUGHTER)
KEILAR: Yes, I tried to read a little of it, and this is actually what some people say when there are these calls for reading the bill. There's sort of a joke up here on the Hill that, even if you read it, do you really understand it?
SANCHEZ: No.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: It was it was to amend section five of paragraph G, to then strike this and that according to this. And I was -- and, finally, you do -- and I shouldn't be so facetious. You do eventually get to some meat and then you get an understanding of what it is that they're doing.
But there's so many procedural things, so many strikes, so many motions, so many changes that it's hard to understand if what you're reading at any particular moment is the meat or something that no longer matters.
KEILAR: Well, and Democratic leaders have been having briefings on exactly what it does mean. And even though, Rick, when you and I take this home and its our bedside table reading, we don't have the help of a staff that is familiar with this language that they can kind of point in the right direction.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
KEILAR: So, they do have that. But, at the same time, they are trying to find out exactly whether their constituents are going to be OK with this, because so many of these Democrats are in very vulnerable places, where they're in these Republican-leaning districts, and that temperature check's very important.
SANCHEZ: "Counting the Vote" is what we're calling this, by the way, and we're also learning that there's some fine print that includes details on Medicare payouts to states that might cost support of some of these members who were expected to favor the bill.
Think about that, folks. Just as we're at the point where we're getting ready to vote, we're getting some folks in Congress who are telling us that they're concerned about the fine print in the details on Medicare payouts to states. And I have got a couple of guys here -- well, I will read you more about what they have to say in just a little bit.
Again, we expect that there are some folks who might be going to the cameras and announcing what they're going to do. This is congressmen and congresswomen who might be changing their positions, or perhaps firming up their positions.
We have got a lot coming your way. And I want to be able to take you, once again, on what the news is today, who's made what decision as far as yes or no is concerned, where we are with the bill as we move forward. And I'm also going to be joined by Craig Crawford in just a little bit, who's been studying and drilling down on this thing for the last couple of weeks as well.
There's Craig now with the colorful tie. We will be right back. Stay with us. This is RICK'S LIST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ANNOUNCER: You're watching a special edition of RICK'S LIST, "Health Care Reform: Counting the Vote."
SANCHEZ: Welcome back, folks.
We're getting down to the nitty-gritty of this thing, and some of the folks in Congress are now coming forward and deciding whether they are going to vote yea or whether they're going to vote nay, and we have got a lot of movement on that.
And as we do that there was -- it seemed like today there was no one who was quite as committed to this thing or as enthusiastic -- and it's not to say that the president hasn't been enthusiastic before, because he certainly has been. But this was almost a different type of President Obama.
I want you to hear from the president once again. This is going to be the president, by the way, talking about why this bill is important. He is saying that because this is such a far-reaching piece of legislation, he describes it as the character of America.
This is cut one, by the way, Roger.
He says this is a character vote for the American people, a debate about who we really are as a country. It's an interesting perspective, as delivered as enthusiastically as we have seen him since maybe the campaign trail. Let's watch this together. And then I'm going to go Craig Crawford on other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: It's a debate about the character of our country...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: ... about whether we can still meet the challenges of our time; whether we still have the guts and the courage to give every citizen, not just some, the chance to reach their dreams.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: By the way, we have just gotten information as well about what the president's going to be doing this weekend. Interestingly enough, the president has decided he's going to bring the entire Democratic Caucus to the White House this weekend. Will it be a pep rally? Will it be an opportunity for some more arm-twisting? What will it be? And what will the Republicans do in turn?
Craig Crawford's been joining this situation.
Craig, what do you make of this last-minute maneuvering that's going on?
CRAIG CRAWFORD, COLUMNIST, CQPOLITICS.COM: Well, you know, the thing about Barack Obama, going back to the campaign and watching him today, he was in campaign mode.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
CRAWFORD: He sounded like the Obama of the presidential race. And the thing about him in so many different areas, in campaigns and in governing, he's what they call a fourth quarter player, the closer. He kicks in at the end.
The problem is, of course, he's up against a lot of fifth quarter players who wait until the game's over and jump him in the parking lot, but he is -- he is definitely in kick-it-in mode and closing mode.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Well, Craig, what do you make of the movement today? And let me share this with our viewers once again just so get caught up.
Angie, I don't know if we have got this graphic or not, but if you could help our viewers. Either way, I'm going to read the list. Here's what we at CNN have been able to follow along with today, Craig.
And for those of you at home who are now following this to see which direction the votes are going, let me give them to you. Baron Hill of Indiana has moved from not responded to undeclared. Zachary Space of Ohio has moved from not responded to undeclared, Jim Costa also to undeclared. Stephen Lynch of Massachusetts is now a firm no, a firm no against the measure.
Charlie Wilson of Ohio has moved to yes. Dina Titus of Nevada has moved from undeclared to yes for the bill. Carol Shea-Porter, New Hampshire, has moved from undeclared to yes. John Boccieri of Ohio, we heard him this morning. He went from undeclared to yes. So, that's four yeses in a row. And you just heard that we talked to Tony (sic) Cuellar a little while ago. He's leaning yes.
What do you think of the movement in and other itself, before you tell us who the people are and why they are moving in what direction?
CRAWFORD: Well, it depends on two or three factors. You have the abortion coalition, or the anti-abortion coalition, who are upset that the stricter measures in the earlier House version are not in this. And so the House is promising a separate vote on that. That's all we need is another separate vote. SANCHEZ: Well, let me stop you -- let me stop you there.
CRAWFORD: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Because you know what you just said? What you just said is that there's a possibility that some of the guys who aren't crazy about this legislation will vote for it on the promise that, after it passes, this president will do things to give them what they wanted, almost like if you signed a contract with me, let's not put it on paper now, but I guarantee you I'm going to give you that cushy parking spot.
(CROSSTALK)
CRAWFORD: I have a feeling it's going to be a measure that's designed to fail, but allows these abortion foes to go on the record, so that they can go back to their districts and say, I voted against -- for better, stronger abortion measures. And that's what they're looking for is just to get on the record.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But as this bill stands right now, you can't pay for an abortion...
CRAWFORD: Right.
SANCHEZ: ... using any federal money. That's what the Hyde amendment says. I frankly don't understand, and I still wish someone would explain to me how it is that in our present system abortions are paid for. The ones many of the opponents want to keep, it's paid for now. It's paid for by most insurance companies in the country. When the government comes in, they won't be paid for.
(CROSSTALK)
CRAWFORD: Yes.
SANCHEZ: So, how can you be against a reform and say you're for -- say you're anti-abortion?
CRAWFORD: It's kind of similar to the immigration arguments about this bill. There are a lot -- the worry is among these voters who are so adamant about pro-life is that any legislation that ever even touches the issue of health care, they want to be sure there's another restriction put in.
SANCHEZ: Good for them.
CRAWFORD: And the Senate did weaken the restriction, and the House is not strengthening it back to what it had, and hence the separate measure.
SANCHEZ: Well, we tried to get -- look, I have tried to get Congressman Stupak on here probably 10 times. And he -- I don't know why. He won't come on. He won't come on. Look, I just want to ask him, would you please explain to me what your position is on this?
But you know what I respect? I respect the fact that they're sticking to the language, because they think, once you open up the hole a little bit, others will want to drive through it. I think that's probably where they're going.
CRAWFORD: Yes, that's it. And that is the way it is with the immigration debate also within this bill.
SANCHEZ: Hey, can you stick around, Craig?
CRAWFORD: Certainly.
(CROSSTALK)
CRAWFORD: I have got the bill right here. I will just keep reading it.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Oh, you get it.
All right, folks, stay with us. This is a special -- this is a special edition of our show that we're doing for you. Jessica Yellin is coming up for us as soon as we come back, and she's going to be taking us through some of this conversation as well. And you know she's been making probably a zillion calls to get even more information that she's going to share with you.
You're watching RICK'S LIST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
There's a series of lists that I'm going to be taking through, all the different sound that we're getting from the president today. The president today was very different from how he's been in the past. Let's just leave it at that.
And we're also going to be showing you lists of the news that's moving today.
And then we have the list of the folks who are going to be talking to us.
And we have the list, of course, of the people who are changing their positions so far. I'm going to be sharing that with you, and where they are, and we expect that that could change during this newscast. We expect that there are congressmen who are going to come out, stand in front of the microphones and possibly take you through their new or stayed position.
But, before we do that, I know a lot of you are getting home from work right now, so let me just draw this out as best as I can, right? Basically, you have here Congress, right, divided by one side or another. This is pretty much where it stands right now, as we measure it, 207 nos.
These are the people who are opponents of health care reform, right? Well, they need to get to 216. How many yeses on this side? We really don't know. It's a little harder to count, right? So, they have 207. How many do they need to get to 216? They need nine. Somehow, if they can get nine more, that means that they will be able to get to that figure, and that means these guys lose.
That's if they do a vote, of course, right? That's before we even start talking about something called deem and pass, which we're going to be talking about in just a little bit.
Let me just check in real quick with my colleague here Steve Brusk.
Steve, as we stand right now, and I just shared the eight with our viewers a little while ago, no additions, no changes, right?
STEVE BRUSK, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL EDITOR: Not yet. At this point, status quo. We're still working the phones in the Washington bureau, trying to get a true head count. We know it's close. It's going to...
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: It's going to go down to the wire, isn't it?
BRUSK: This time tomorrow, we will be saying the same thing. It's going to be close.
SANCHEZ: Let's go to Jessica Yellin. She's standing by as well and she's following things for us there in Washington.
Jessica, what have you seen as far as movement so far today?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you see some people move to yes or some people move to firm nos, so that's why these number remains fluid, because each time -- because it still remains incremental, Rick. And the team on Capitol Hill that we have will be following this minute by minute through that vote on Sunday.
SANCHEZ: Hey, there's something going on here that I just read a little while ago. I don't know if it was Steve or Gary on my staff who gave me this. He said there's some kind of fine print that includes details on Medicare payouts that there are some guys who are complaining about.
For example, Representative Peter DeFazio of Oregon said he -- I'm going to read what he says. He said: "We spent months working this thing out. If we don't get this in the bill, we will never get it."
So, what are they upset about?
YELLIN: There's a lot, Rick, that they have to still -- that's not being included in the bill because they want to get it through. And there are some measures like that abortion language you were talking about that they could take separate votes on. There's even discussion of maybe having people have separate votes on a public option later just to let them be on the record. So, you're in the process of seeing things stripped, that things have been massaged in a way to get to yes. And different constituencies, you know, members are going to be upset about it.
SANCHEZ: Well, let's do this. I don't want to get too rudimentary, but you know what? We're talking about a process that most of us don't do every day, all right? There's people out there who are watching us right now who are lawyers or doctors or plumbers or whatever it is that they do for a living, and that's what they know. They don't study the legislative process.
YELLIN: Right.
SANCHEZ: So, as we know this right now, this thing could come to a vote on Sunday...
YELLIN: Right.
SANCHEZ: ... maybe 2:00, maybe 5:00, maybe 8:00 at night. Who knows, right? If they have the votes, if they have this 216 that I have been showing our viewers, right...
YELLIN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: ... if the Dems or the proponents of health care reform get those 216, fine, then they vote, right? What happens if they don't have that 216? Then what do they do?
YELLIN: Well, first of all, they're saying they won't hold a vote until they have those -- that 216. Nancy Pelosi reiterated that today. Steny Hoyer, her number two, has said that before.
The bottom line is, they do these head counts in advance so they know what they're going to get when they go to the floor. So, you're not going to see a vote until they are sure they have a yes.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Why can't they just deem it?
YELLIN: You still -- deeming doesn't mean that no one ever votes on anything. It means you never take a direct vote on that one Senate bill that so many House members don't like. You still do have to have members go and actually cast a vote.
SANCHEZ: I see.
YELLIN: So, there's no skipping that voting. It's just the procedure by which you make the vote is a little indirect.
SANCHEZ: But they prefer -- no matter what, they don't want to have people come back later and say, see, you had to use that deem thing, even though Republicans have used it in the past. Apparently they used it in 2005. They would prefer to do a straight-up vote and get 51 percent on this thing, right?
YELLIN: Yes, they just -- actually, at this point, they just want to get her done.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
YELLIN: They want to get it through, and their assumption and belief is that we are obsessed with process right now. We are really in the weeds, but that will pass. And the Democrats' belief is that if this passes, if the bill itself passes, the obsession with process will move on. They can talk about the substance.
SANCHEZ: Yes, and the process is important today, but we want to protect our viewers as much as we can from total confusion.
YELLIN: Right.
SANCHEZ: No, no, I'm serious. It's important that we give them the information. We are going to give them the numbers. We are going to give them the votes. We are going to give them the names of people who are going from one side or the other, but if you get too deep into the weeds, it's almost like your head starts to spin.
YELLIN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And, by the way, it's a Friday. Tomorrow is a weekend, and I don't want to do that to anybody.
Jessica, you are going to stay with us, right, throughout the show?
YELLIN: Yes. I will be there.
SANCHEZ: Yes, we're going to be here for -- yes, if you have got to make calls or anything, just go and then come back.
YELLIN: OK.
SANCHEZ: All right.
SANCHEZ: Jessica Yellin. I got Steve Brusk standing by. I got Angie in my ear telling me if there's any changes coming in from Washington. We have got correspondents who are standing by. We have got a ton of guests that are be joining us as well.
Here's what you're going to see on this show, Tony Blankley, Maria Cardona, Mark Preston. Congressman Barney Frank is joining us, more obviously with the chairman of the Republican Party, Michael Steele. Congressman Steve (sic) Boccieri has just called. He's going to join us on the show. He's one of the folks on that list who went the other way now. He's a yes. So -- and Congressman Joseph Cao is going to be joining us now. Congressman Joseph Cao is a Republican who would be the only Republican who could possibly vote for this at this point. Talk about an interesting interview. We're looking forward to that. Let's take a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SANCHEZ: All right. We're going to continue with our list, and this is one that we promised we would bring you every were. And, by golly, we're going to fulfill our promise.
He's an elected official, but you have got to be more than that to make the list of the most intriguing people in the news.
He's one of those relatively few conservative-leaning Democrats in the House of Representatives. They call themselves the Blue Dogs. And how he's going to vote on President Obama's health care is still anybody's guess today, so, yes, we're chasing him.
He voted no in November, but don't use that as a guide. Other Democrats have flipped, and the legislation's chances to pass now rest with a very small group of lawmakers. That includes this guy right here. Who is our most intriguing?
He's Tennessee Blue Dog Democrat Congressman Lincoln Davis. And the eyes and the pressure of the nation are upon him today, as there are a bevy of others. It could come down to his vote alone as to whether the president's plan becomes law -- Lincoln Davis, today's most intriguing person in the news.
Few things that we have done around here have gotten as much attention as the interview that I did yesterday with Chairman Michael Steele of the GOP. He just came out and said it. It was right after the news about the CBO's numbers being out, and I asked him about that. And he said, Rick, "Three words, it is a lie."
As we look at what's going on, on Capitol Hill, we will be sharing that interview with you in just a little bit. So, stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
As we move forward, I want to get your attention on something. Have you still got that shot up? See if you can get the shot up, if you would, Rog. Republican whip Eric Cantor will be coming out and speaking to reporters.
We believe -- we believe at this point that he'll be talking about the CBO numbers that came out yesterday that seemed to indicate there could be $1 trillion in savings in the deficit, but the whole thing will cost something like $800 billion the first decade, this reform package.
There's a lot of commentary going back and forth, from the right and the left, as to whether or not it's good or bad. We suspect that Mr. Cantor's going to come out and he's going to criticize the CBO report, as many Republicans have, including the chairman of the Republican Party.
Did you see Michael Steele with me yesterday? Let me show you that one more time. Here's me and Michael Steele yesterday talking about that just moments after the numbers had come out. It's an interesting discussion on health care.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Why do Republicans keep saying that we have the greatest health care system in the world? That is not true. It's like we're -- it's like we're treating Americans like little kids who can't handle the truth. Americans are big people. You could tell them, look, our health care system's in disarray. That's OK, isn't it?
MICHAEL STEELE, RNC CHAIRMAN: No, because it's wrong.
SANCHEZ: You think we got the best health care system in the world?
STEELE: Excuse me. Rick, when you get sick, do you get on a plane and go to France for health care?
SANCHEZ: No, but if I lived there I would probably get --
STEELE: No, I'm going to answer your question.
SANCHEZ: Go ahead, I'm sorry.
STEELE: Do you get on a plane and go to Canada? No, because those folks are coming here for the health care system. When you have 85 percent of the American people say I like what I got, everybody acknowledges what the problem is, it's one of cost and it's one of how do you begin to bring into the system some 12 million to 15 million people who are legitimately outside of the system?
Now we're back up -- I see the president and the Congress are now talking about 30 million people. Well, the president himself has brought the number down in the state of the union address, but now it's back up to 30 million --
SANCHEZ: But, Mr. Chairman --
STEELE: -- for I think nor cynical purposes they are trying to get this bad bill passed.
SANCHEZ: According to the calculations that we did and according to the calculations that the Democrats are announcing today, it's going to save in the deficit for the United States citizens $1.2 trillion. Do you believe that's not true?
STEELE: I got two words for you -- three words.
SANCHEZ: Go.
STEELE: "That's a lie."
SANCHEZ: OK.
STEELE: It will not. It will cost us -- it will cost us trillions of dollars.
SANCHEZ: You're arguing with the CBO. You're arguing with the CBO, you know?
STEELE: Let me tell you about the CBO?
SANCHEZ: Go ahead.
STEELE: Since they've been taken down to the woodshed at the White House, you can't believe the numbers.
SANCHEZ: It that fair to criticize the CBO when during the Bush administration the CBO numbers were represented and respected almost every time they came out with numbers on both sides? Now all of a sudden the CBO is not to be believed.
STEELE: But President Bush never called the director of the CBO down to the White House to get the number out of him that he wanted. President Bush never made the CBO the centerpiece of his legislation in order to get things passed. They put in the real numbers and came up with an honest assess.
SANCHEZ: You are saying the president of the United States has crumbed the CBO with a personal phone call or a visit? Come on, now.
STEELE: I'm just saying that, look, this whole process has not worked on behalf of the American people, and the reality of it is that when you look at the bottom line here, the taxpayers, the middle-class, are going to have a heavier burden to pay once this thing passes and, lord help us if it does.
SANCHEZ: I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this discussion with you. I thank you, sir, for taking the time.
STEELE: Hey, man, good to be with you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: All right. The Democrats are trying to make sure this thing gets passed. The Republicans are trying to make sure it doesn't. And here's Eric Cantor to tell you about that.
REP. ERIC CANTOR, (R) MINORITY WHIP: -- trickery that is involved with this really has, I think, really manifested itself in their difficulty in getting the votes. I mean, we're here right now, we know they don't have the votes for this bill.
And, you know, listen, it's very straightforward. We know that we need 38 Democrat no votes in order to defeat this bill. Publicly right now, there are 33 stated no votes on the Democrats' side.
We also know that there are 12 members of the so-called Stupak group that are standing firm against the attempt to allow for government funding of abortion, and we also know if you add that 12 to the already 33 Democrat no votes, there's no way they can pass this bill.
But we also know that there are many other swing districts on the Democratic side of the aisle that are in play, so we are fighting hard to make sure we're doing everything we can to fight this bill. And, again, this type of fiscal chicanery does not give the public a lot of confidence in what the Democrats are about.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Dave Camp from Michigan. They're hiding the true cost of this bill. And they're hiding the impact this legislation will have on the deficit.
SANCHEZ: That's interesting, because of -- come back to me, if you possibly could. And I just want -- I just want to be able to have our numbers checked as we say this, because I want to be consistent as we move forward.
By CNN's count, the number that Eric Cantor just shared is -- I'm not going to say he's incorrect. He may have new information that we don't have. But it's different.
Just for the sake of consistency. Steve Brusk (ph), let me bring you into this. What's the number that we have? He just said there are 33 committed nos. Do we have 33 committed nos?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The numbers, of course, are very fluid. From our political unit and our congressional unit, everyone they've talked to, we have 29 Democrats who are committed no votes right now.
SANCHEZ: He just said there are 33. He added four.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's correct.
SANCHEZ: We don't know where he got them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By his count there were five more people who said they would vote no, then they would have enough to defeat it. Our numbers are a little shy of that. Our numbers are 29, still needing 7.
SANCHEZ: Listen, for the sake of transparency, let's make sure we are telling viewers where we are. We are reporting 29 and we're sticking by that figure, and we've got a whole bunch of people doing that, checking these numbers and making phone cause.
We'll run what he just said, 33, by the Jessica Yellins and the Brianna Keilars and all the folks that we've got working this story for us in Washington.
Meanwhile, we've got another story coming up as we count the votes here for you, because we want to cover some other news. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is what I want to know. That's all I want to know. I don't care about the car (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Normally when someone tells me why I did get pulled over I tell them that because they're -- black.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's prejudice, though.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Wow, did the officer just say that? The officer says he usually tells people that they've been pulled over because they are "expletive here black?" An officer? The "Brooke Block" is coming up and that's a part of her list. Stay right there, she's right here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: OK, as we move forward, we've got a lot of news that's moving, and we understand that we are now at -- let me just go back and check my own notes as we move forward. We are at 207 nos. Don't know exactly where the yeses are.
That means that to pass health care -- to stop health care reform, to stop health care reform from passing, the opponents of this measure are going to need nine more nos. Right? Do the math. I mean, basically it's as I was explaining it to you here.
You want to go through it one more time just to be sure? Because I know many of you guys know -- what time is it now? It's 40 minutes after the hour. A lot of people are coming home from work.
This is where Barney Frank works. He's somewhere in there. No, he's somewhere over there if we do it this way -- 209 nos, they need 216. You see that there. That means this side, the nos, need nine more. We don't know exactly what the yeses are, because there's a lot of movement right there. So, that's exactly what they need. Sorry about that. They need seven more. So, that's the movement as we see it right now.
Barney Frank is standing by. He, as you know, is a U.S. congressman, who is as -- as loquacious on these kinds of things as anyone we could probably ask to join us. Congressman Frank, good to see you, sir.
REP. BARNEY FRANK, (D) MASSACHUSETTS: Hello.
SANCHEZ: What do you make of the shenanigans that led up to the situation we are now? I mean everything, the infighting within your party, the town hall meetings, all the deals or supposed deals that have gone back and forth. Does it make you proud of your institution?
FRANK: Oh, yes. Well, it makes me aware of democracy. You can probably do something similar about the constitutional convention. That's democracy. You have a big, sprawling country with a lot of independent people, and that's how it works. Nobody gives anybody orders. Democracy and neatness are opposites, and I think that's a good thing.
I do think this -- on the deals, the deals have backfired mostly. And one of the things that I hope the house will be doing is to undo those deals. And I think that's a good thing. I think the fact that the deals created such a negative feedback is a healthy sign.
SANCHEZ: By the way, I was just looking at my own numbers. I've had these numbers going around in my head all day. There are 207 nos, which means they need nine more nos to stop you. I think I just said to our viewers there were 209 nos and they needed seven more nos to stop you.
Again, I know these numbers make us all crazy. I can only imagine what your job is like because you have got to count this stuff all the time. It's 207 nos so far and they need nine to stop this legislation. Let me just ask you flat-out -- do you think they can get this nine and be able to stop the legislation?
FRANK: I'm not the best one to ask. In fact, I'm chairman of the financial institution, my major focus since September of 2008 when Ben Bernanke and Hank Paulson came up to tell us the sky is falling has been the financial regulatory. I've been watching the Senate there.
So, I have to tell you, I've not been very deeply involved in this and I'm not one of the ones who has been counting or --
SANCHEZ: Do you believe -- let me ask you this, then. Do you believe, as Republicans say, that this is the wrong thing to do, that it's going to completely destroy our economy, or do you believe what your party says, and the president himself, that if we don't do this, our economy will be destroyed?
FRANK: My answer is "c," neither of the above. People tend to over- argue in these cases. The American economy is a very large, very complex, and very resilient entity, and it's not going to be destroyed by either one.
I think it will be improved somewhat if we pass the bill. It's clearly not going to destroy it. I will say if you go back to 1965, you heard the same arguments about destruction when Medicare came forward.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
FRANK: I think it will be helpful. No, I don't think it's going to have a cataclysmic effect one way or the other on the whole economy. I do think it will improve the health of many people, and I do think over time it will work well. But as I said, there is a great tendency in these debates for both sides to over-argue their case.
SANCHEZ: You have always been sort of a populist, and I think a lot of our viewers are as well. And I believe that they are just so fed up with the folks on Wall Street and everything they have done.
And Senator Kaufman from Delaware came forward recently and he said we need to investigate these guys and find out who cheated, who broke the law, and we need to throw their butts in prison. That's essentially what he's saying, whereas Christopher Dodd came forward and said, look, we can't do this punitively. Where are you on that?
FRANK: Well, I am sort in the middle. Here's the problem. I do think that we should have more prosecutions and more activity. But part of the problem, because I'm -- the committee I chair doesn't have the investigative role primarily.
Here's part of the problem for me, Rick -- some of the worst things that were done were legal. So, part of my job is to try and make it possible to send some of those people to jail in the future.
I mean, literally, if you looked at the rules, there are things that will take your breath away that people were able to do that were perfectly legal, like what you were just reading about with Lehman Brothers or what went on Greece, namely, people had an ability to incur and then through some razzle-dazzle make-believe it didn't exist and then go sell things to other people.
And so part of what we're trying to do is make a lot more things illegal that used to be.
SANCHEZ: Why is it -- just a final question I want to ask you before we go to this break. How is it possible after losing almost our entire economy, as we were told, and now we're about a year and a half into since that happened, that we still haven't put in the things to bind that -- to make those things that you're talking about binding so they can't do this again?
FRANK: Well, two reasons. First of all, it took us longer to dig out of the hole than we had thought. But by early -- but by a year ago we started working on it, and the House did pass a bill in December.
I will say this, they have not -- they have not been doing a lot of the bad things. Again, they're waiting. If our bills die, then they'll go back to it. And I am hoping -- and I think Senator Dodd is on the right path now.
I hope that by May the president will have signed a bill that will have made a lot of these things illegal, and at the same time, though, there were some things that were done that should be punished, and I'm hoping they'll also be doing some of that.
SANCHEZ: Barney Frank, my thanks you to, congressman.
FRANK: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: And some on back, all right?
FRANK: Whenever you ask me.
SANCHEZ: It's a good thing.
FRANK: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: He's on "The List" as we say, Brooke. Appreciate it.
By the way, we're also checking our tweets. We like to get the latest information to people relevant on the news, and certainly Tom Coburn is relevant to the news.
What he's worried about is that the Dems will at the last minute cut all kinds of sweet deals with each other to get people to vote for stuff. "I will force House members to defend selling their vote on health care, and I'll block every special deal that I can."
That's Senator Tom Coburn, Dr. Tom Coburn who is putting that tweet out, and we're glad that we got a chance to share it with you.
The "Brooke Block" is coming up next, her list.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. We are essentially dedicating this show to the movement that's going on right now in Washington. You know the movement has everything to do with this health care vote.
As it stands right now -- and we're counting nos. I know you are probably wondering why are you just counting nos? If you are counting to see if something passes, why don't you count the yes? It's actually because the yeses are a little tougher to count right now. It's a little more vague. The nos are not tough to count.
As we look at the capitol, we can tell you the nos stand at 207. That's with all the movement that's taken place today. There have been eight specific Congressmen and women who have moved on this today. I've got a list of them here that I'll be sharing with you as well.
And with 207 nos, that mean they need nine more to get to the magic number, and the magic number and the magic number is 216. So I don't mean to sound repetitive, but I know there are a lot of folks joining us now getting home from work, so from time to time I'll tell what you the score is so we can all follow it together.
Let's move away from health care for a moment. Let's go to Brooke's Block. This is where she shares with you what's on her list.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I have a number today -- two stories on my list for you. I'll be out in three minutes, I promise, a quick detour from health care.
First story, we all have cell phones. They do a lot more these days than just allow us to talk on the phone. Case in point, police officer pulls over this car in Chicago. The area according to police -- I talked to them today -- it's prone to gangs. They are pulled over because they have tinted windows. In Illinois that's against the law.
The passenger grabs her cell phone and records this five-minute conversation between an officer and those in the car she says simply out of fear. It is not what the officer did, it's exactly what he said that's now being called by some as racist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know why I got pulled over. That's all I want to know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Normally when I someone tells me "why did I get pulled over?" I tell them because they're -- black.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's prejudice, though.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: No one in the car was African-American. That's precisely why Chicago police came out today saying the officer was being sarcastic.
"The manner in which the officer and the subject interacted was unacceptable. Officers are trained and expected to deal with these situations in a professional manner free of unnecessary sarcasm." That officer has eight years with CPD, pulled off the streets.
SANCHEZ: Isn't there another word for sarcastic? Isn't it "stupid"?
BALDWIN: Possibly stupid.
SANCHEZ: But as we've said on this show, it is not illegal to be stupid. We all are stupid from time to time, but that was a stupid thing for him to say, and he's been reprimanded.
BALDWIN: He's suspended, off the streets.
Story number two, big story in the Midwest, several flood warnings. We've been talking to Chad the past couple of days here. Several flood warnings issued for Iowa, Illinois, Missouri, where melting snow, rain, causing serious flooding conditions.
Want to toss it to our colleague APJ Chris Welch covering the story for us in Moorhead, North Dakota.
CHRIS WELCH, CNN ALL PLATFORM JOURNALIST: Brooke, as you can see, the red river behind me is rising and rising fast. We're already 17 feet above flood stage. Few more feet to go before the crest is expected on Sunday. It's expected to top out at 38 feet.
Now, last year's record-breaking flood was about 41 feet. So the folks here feel like well, hey, we did it last year. We fought off the big one. This year shouldn't be so bad.
They're hoping that those lessons learned in the sandbagging, all the stress, all the sense of urgency, they're applying it this year and hoping they are going to come out all right. Brooke?
CHETRY: Chris, thank you. The bottom line, everybody in those neck of the woods watching, waiting, they're hoping those sandbags will keep the water at bay from the big Red River.
SANCHEZ: I used to live there.
BALDWIN: Really?
SANCHEZ: Yes. I went to Moorhead State University as a college student.
BALDWIN: I should know that.
SANCHEZ: Before I went to the University of Minnesota. But I played football there. We would go, the entire team would be recruited in the spring to go and do sandbagging.
BALDWIN: Really?
SANCHEZ: We would literally do what the folks are doing there now.
BALDWIN: Flooding a pretty much regular thing?
SANCHEZ: It's something that happens on a regular basis, not every year but every five or six years up in that area.
BALDWIN: Big flooding this year.
SANCHEZ: The Red River, one of the few rivers in the United States that actually flows north. Most people don't know that.
Thanks so much. Good stuff. We appreciate it.
All right, we're coming back at you in just a little bit. And when we come back, we'll talk to several people, including Republican Congressman Cao of Louisiana who is the only Republican who could possibly still have a sliver of a chance left, say Democrats, that he could actually vote yes on this bill. It's an interesting part of the story. Stay right there and we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Few people know Congress better than Craig Crawford. He is now with CQpolitics.com. But this guy's been writing about the Hill for --
CRAIG CRAWFORD, POLITICAL ANALYST: For 25 years.
SANCHEZ: For 25 year, there you go, two and a half decades, to be exact.
Can you give us a sense, given your history there, what you expect is going to happen over the next two days before -- leading into Sunday night? I mean, talk to our viewers as if they're neophytes, that they haven't had your job.
CRAWFORD: In general, when they get this close, they usually get over the finish line. There are some exceptions.
But what they've done in this reconciliation bill, this fixer bill, I call it a "sweetener," and that is how you track a lot of these votes that you're watching today, these undeclared people and how they're getting them.
And one of the big ways is they are putting things off that these members don't like, for example, the tax on Cadillac insurance. They extended the impact of that, the launch of that to 2018. And then those very people who are now voting for the bill because that was extended are already saying they're going to mount a campaign to repeal it altogether.
SANCHEZ: That's interesting. CRAWFORD: So that is one of the main ways they're getting these votes on the left and right.
SANCHEZ: That's interesting, because I was just reading today as I was getting ready to do this newscast, one of the things I wanted to do was I read the CBO number. What's the GOP saying about the CBO numbers.
They're saying look, Rick, this thing doesn't include the $371 billion in spending on physicians fees and also not including the Cadillac tax on high cost insurance plans. So I think you nailed it. That's one of the things that's coming from the right, saying you got to do some fixes here.
CRAWFORD: I watched your interview with Steele yesterday and I thought he used the sledgehammer approach to the CBO and said they were lying or whatever.
But I think a better argument for him would be what the CBO itself said about these future plans. I mean, the language in the report itself makes the point that many times Congress doesn't have the guts to do the things they want to do in the out years. The CBO is limited to scoring the legislation in front of them.
But they did make some observations that I think the Republicans ought to be quoting.
SANCHEZ: Let me hold you there, Craig. Stick around, because we're going to continue this discussion.
We're moving into the next hour now. A lot is coming your way. Tony Blankley, who is convinced this is not good for the United States because it's just too damn expensive, he's going to be joining us in just a little bit, and he's going to be sharing his opinion with Craig Crawford. We're coming back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
