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Rick's List
Health Care Reform: Counting the Vote; Interview With Louisiana Congressman Joseph Cao
Aired March 19, 2010 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Here's what we have got coming up, Congressman Cao. We have got Jeffrey Toobin. We have got Brianna Keilar. We have got Tony Blankley. We have got Craig Crawford, all of these folks, who are going to be taking us through this momentous decision that's being made in Congress.
And, as we take you through it, we also want you to know that we're going to be doing this throughout this hour.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Not only can we afford to do this; we can't afford not to do this.
MICHAEL STEELE, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: That's a lie.
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: Republicans can't beat this bill, but the American people can.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: When we bring the bill to the floor, we will have a significant victory for the American people.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Kill the bill!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For way too long, far too many Americans have had their health and wellness suffer because they are uninsured.
SEN. SCOTT BROWN (R), MASSACHUSETTS: While it's certainly important to provide care for those people, I believe that individual states could do it better.
OBAMA: We are going to do something historic this weekend.
ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of RICK'S LIST, "Health Care Reform: Counting the Vote."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And welcome back.
And that's exactly...
(LAUGHTER) SANCHEZ: ... what we're doing. I'm Rick Sanchez. We're in the world headquarters of CNN.
And we're tallying up, as best we can, all the votes that are coming in. We have got a lot of folks in Washington. We have got a lot of folks that you might see there behind me who are doing the exact same thing. I have got my colleague over here, Steve Brusk, who is also crunching numbers. And he's in contact with the folks in Washington, as he gets his information. And we will be checking in with him from time to time.
We have got a bevy of lists. I mean, we call this show RICK'S LIST for a reason.
Maybe the most important list is this one. Let me go to top of this list right here. These are the folks who have made their positions firm so far today. Some of them have gone to undecided. Some of them have gone to no. I'm -- the last four have gone to yes, which is good news for the proponents of health care reform. You see a yes, a yes, a yes and a yes.
We had Henry Cuellar on just a little while ago. And we're going to have Congressman Cao, who is going to be joining us in just a little bit.
Before we do anything else, I want you to hear from the chief supporter of this, the president of the United States. There's no question that he's as enthusiastic as he's ever been.
And, earlier today, he was speaking in Virginia. And I want you to listen to what he sounds like, because he sounded more today like he did back when he was campaigning for election.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: If you believe that it's right, then you've got to help us finish this fight.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: You've got to stand with me just like you did three years ago...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: ... and make some phone calls and knock on some doors, talk to your parents, talk to your friends.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: Do not quit.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: Do not give up. We keep on going.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: We are going to get this done. We are going to make history.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: We are going to fix health care in America with your help.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: God bless you, and God bless the United States of America.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
All right. Here's what the -- come on back, Robert, if you would. I want to show you something.
Here's what the Republicans have to do. And this is quite simple. And I -- I -- for the -- risking being repetitive, because I know a lot of you are joining us from time to time, let me just do this in a real simple way. All right?
Let's suppose that's the House of Representatives, right? These are the folks over here who are against it. I mean, these are the folks over here who are for it, right, or say they're going to be for it? And these are the folks against it. But, right now, as we stand right here, this number is at 207.
So, those are the nos, right? Those are the ones who are saying no. They need to get to 216 to be able to block this thing. So, that means from 207 to 216, that's nine. They need nine more people to step up and say, "I'm against this thing," and they would be able to block the proponents on this side.
Why aren't we counting the yeses? Because it's too hard to count the yeses right now. There's too much movement going on there. But they, themselves, would tell you that they're doing very well and are close to that number as well.
But there's a lot of fudge area in there, so that's why we're going to do that.
Brianna Keilar is standing by right now. She's going to bring up us to date on what's going on with a -- the -- I understand that you have got the one Republican that Democrats held out hope would actually vote yes on this measure. And that's Congressman Cao of Louisiana, right?
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right.
I'm here with Congressman Joseph Cao. And I'm going to ask him, actually...
Because there's been a lot of questions, Congressman, about exactly where you fall into this. And I will just sort of set the scene for our viewers.
You have told local media that you are pretty much a definite no.
REP. JOSEPH CAO (R), LOUISIANA: Mm-hmm.
KEILAR: You have also told President Obama that you would take a second look at the Senate bill.
CAO: Right.
KEILAR: But we just heard a short time ago from Congressman Eric Cantor, the whip, the man tasked with counting votes for Republicans, that you are a firm no. So, which is it?
CAO: Right now, I am a firm no, because I do believe that the Senate language on the abortion issue is insufficient for me to support a Senate bill.
KEILAR: So, let's -- and let's just be clear, because what the Senate bill says, in sort of simplified terms, is that, if you are going to get a subsidy to help you pay for health insurance, you can purchase a policy with that subsidy that includes abortion coverage, but you would have to write two separate payments, basically, to...
CAO: Correct.
KEILAR: ... make sure that it's totally your own private funds that are going to cover abortions, whereas the House bill said that, if you were to get a subsidy, you couldn't use that money to purchase an insurance plan that includes abortion. You would have to buy what is called a rider...
CAO: Mm-hmm.
KEILAR: ... a separate provide for abortion.
CAO: Right.
KEILAR: I mean, what -- what's the difference there?
CAO: Well, right there, obviously, there are some wording differences.
But the provision on abortion goes a little bit deeper than that. With respect to some of the fundings that will go to community health centers, the appropriation does not fall directly under the purview of Labor and HHS appropriations, and, therefore, the Hyde amendment would not apply. That's one issue...
KEILAR: Which is the standing law on abortion right now.
CAO: Correct. And... SANCHEZ: But, Congressman -- but, Congressman, can I ask you a question, because I...
CAO: Sure.
SANCHEZ: ... have been confused about this for a long time.
Thank you, sir, by the way, for taking time to join us and talking to our viewers and taking us through this.
Do you know that, right now, if we do not pass health care reform, if you vote against health care reform, we stay with the status quo, what we have right now?
CAO: Mm-hmm.
SANCHEZ: And what we have right now are many, if not most, insurance companies that pay for abortions. You know that, right?
CAO: But the abortion funding actually comes from private money.
SANCHEZ: Yes, it does, I know.
CAO: Mm-hmm. Right.
SANCHEZ: That's what I'm telling you.
If we don't do this bill, if the government has nothing to do with health care in this country, then health care insurance companies are paying for abortions every day in this country. They -- they're doing that right now. You -- you understand that, right?
CAO: I do.
SANCHEZ: OK. So, health care reform will mandate that, if you have an insurance that is paid by the government in any way, you can't get an abortion.
So, in essence, isn't this measure that Obama and the Dems are -- or some of the Dems -- are trying to pass will actually make fewer abortions paid for, won't it? Isn't that logical?
CAO: No. No, it will not.
The present language in the Senate bill provides a tremendous loophole for federal funding for abortion, and will eventually expand abortion services.
SANCHEZ: But, under the measure, no abortion can be paid for with federal money. It specifically says -- that's what the Hyde amendment says -- you can't pay for an abortion with federal money. So...
CAO: Correct. That -- that is correct.
SANCHEZ: So, where's the loophole? Where's the loophole?
CAO: That's correct.
But the Hyde amendment, unless they are specifically stated in the Senate bill, would not apply. And, based on my reading of the Senate bill, many of the fundings through the health care reform bill will not be subject to the Hyde amendment.
SANCHEZ: So -- so, you're saying the money can then somehow, through the back door, be used to -- to -- to -- to pay for an abortion, even -- even if not directly, right?
CAO: Correct.
KEILAR: And...
SANCHEZ: Wow.
KEILAR: And, also, Congressman, I mean, this is an issue of conscience for you...
CAO: It is.
KEILAR: ... right? You -- you are Catholic. And, so, let me ask you this, because there are Republicans who say Democrats are going to pay dearly at the polls for voting their conscience and not representing their constituency.
You represent New Orleans, overwhelmingly Democratic, overwhelmingly in support of this health care reform plan. Are you going to pay at the polls?
CAO: If I were to vote against the health bill, possibly. I don't know. I...
KEILAR: Do you think it's wrong to vote against what your constituents want?
CAO: It is not wrong to vote against what my constituents want, but it's wrong to vote against my own conscience.
KEILAR: OK.
SANCHEZ: OK.
KEILAR: And then -- and, also, let me ask you just other question.
Bart Stupak, anti-abortion Democrat, some other anti-abortion Democrats...
CAO: Mm-hmm.
KEILAR: ... clearly, they're looking for some changes to the abortion language. If they get it, would you be back on board, the way you were when Stupak got his deal last time for the health care...
(CROSSTALK) CAO: If they -- if we are successful in getting strong language back into the bill, the Senate bill, then I will reconsider my vote. Whether or not I vote yes or no still has to be determined, but I will -- at least it will open a door for me to reconsider my vote.
KEILAR: OK. Congressman Cao...
SANCHEZ: OK.
KEILAR: ... thank you very much.
CAO: All right. Thank you.
KEILAR: Rick.
SANCHEZ: Good job, Brianna, as usual.
And, Congressman, my thanks to you, sir...
CAO: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: ... for -- for taking time to take our viewers through this.
And, you know, look, we understand that this is a -- a confusing part of the story, not just the abortion, but the -- the abortion issue, but the vote, the count. We're -- we're trying, as transparently as possible, to take you through this, as we will. That's why we're devoting all two hours to this.
And, look, contributions are welcome, like Patrick McHenry's, an elected official who just reached out to us moment -- a moment ago. I don't know if he was responding to the conversation I was having with Congressman Cao.
He says: "Inconvenient truth on abortion in the health care bill allows community health centers to directly fund abortions with federal money." That's what he says. That's what Patrick McHenry is saying to us, as we move forward here.
We have got a lot of stuff coming your way. We're trying to break it down for you as transparently as we possibly can.
I'm Rick Sanchez. And I want you to know that Jeffrey Toobin, who is one of the smartest guys on board here, is going to be joining us in just a little bit. And he's going to be sharing his 2 cents as well.
So, stay with us. The LIST scrolls on.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CALLER: Hey, Rick, this is Jim C. (ph) down in Richmond, Virginia.
You know, someone who tell President Obama and the Democratic Party that just because you have checks in your checkbook doesn't mean you have money in the bank.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. This is RICK'S LIST. I'm Rick Sanchez. Good to have you here.
There's -- there's an ongoing process here with this legislation, because not only is it what happens and what's voted on in Congress, but then what happens beyond that.
Two legal stories that we want to look into real quick with my colleague Jeffrey Toobin.
One, there's a couple of states that are coming on board now saying, look, even if this thing passes, we're going to take them to court and stop it, because we don't want the court mandating what we do in our states. That's Idaho, Virginia, South Carolina, and Florida.
And then there's the question of the deem and pass. If they use deem and pass, there are some folks in -- there are some folks in -- in Washington who are saying, well, we will take that to court, because that's a violation of our Constitution. That's what they say, not what it is.
Let's start with the states, these five states, Jeffrey, who are coming forward and saying, we will sue to make sure that we don't have to be forced to do this thing. Can they do that?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I -- they can certainly sue. Anybody can sue. This is America.
(LAUGHTER)
TOOBIN: But I think it is extremely unlikely that this law would be declared unconstitutional.
Remember, the United States government, the federal government, has been a major player in health care for a very long time -- Medicare, Medicaid. It -- it is clearly not unconstitutional for the federal government to have an intimate involvement with individuals' health care.
This is simply an extension of that. That has been found constitutional over and over again. I don't think these states will have any success in the courts getting this declared unconstitutional.
SANCHEZ: Well, let's talk about deem and pass, because there's an irony here. The Democrats actually challenged this, as I understand, in court. When the Republicans used deem and pass, it was the Democrats who tried to challenge this thing in court and say, you can't force that through with just 51 percent.
And now it's the Republicans who are complaining, and some of them are even threatening to challenge this in court as well.
TOOBIN: And what happened when the Democrats challenged it? They lost.
SANCHEZ: They lost.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Yes.
TOOBIN: And the...
(LAUGHTER)
TOOBIN: And the Republicans are going to lose this one, too.
Look, Rick, I don't know whether this is pass -- this will pass. I don't know whether it's a good idea. But deem and pass is clearly constitutional. You know, since the 1890s, the Supreme Court has said, each house, each -- each body of Congress, the House and the Senate, has the right to set up their own rules.
And, once we are presented with a bill, once a bill comes to the president with the signature of the speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi in this case...
SANCHEZ: Mm-hmm.
TOOBIN: ... and the signature of the president of the Senate, who is Joseph Biden, the vice president of the United States, we are not going to look at how that process was done. We are not going to walk -- look into how the sausage was made. As far as we are concerned, the Supreme Court says, that's a law. The House and Senate approved it. And with that, game over.
So, I don't think deem and pass has any shot at being declared unconstitutional, starting, of course, with the fact that it's been done many times before.
SANCHEZ: Good stuff, as usual. Thanks so much, Jeffrey Toobin. We appreciate your insight into this. And we will check in with you again.
Meanwhile, we have got Tony Blankley. He's sticking around on the other side, as well as Maria Cardona. They are going to be talking to us about whether we even need this bill. Tony Blankley will tell you that we probably do and that it's not expensive at all.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: How did you like that one, huh?
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Was that a whopper or what?
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: I was going to -- I was going to try to blink, you know, but I couldn't get it, no.
Tony Blankley is going to be here. He's going to give you the perspective that this is very expensive and may not be a right thing to do for Americans. And Maria Cardona is going to tell you that, well, guess what? We have to do this, because it is important, even economically.
So, we will let them kind of duke it out on this one. Stay right there as we follow the vote on this day in what is probably going to be a very historic weekend.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Just for the sake of quantification, the opponents of health care reform are only nine votes away from being able to block it. That doesn't mean that they're any closer than the other side is at this point. We're not using the nos as a way of showing that it's closer on one side than the other. We -- we are not saying that, just to be clear.
It's just a little easier to count the nos than it is the yeses. That's the only reason we're using that barometer. The final analysis, they need to get to 216. So, the question I'm really asking here is, who is going to get to 216 first, the folks who are opposed to health care reform or the folks who are for health care reform?
Let's leave it at that, because we're counting. New information is coming in to us as we speak. And, as it does, I'm going to be sharing it with you throughout this hour.
Let me bring in Tony Blankley now and Maria Cardona.
Hey, good to see both of you guys.
TONY BLANKLEY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Good to see you.
MARIA CARDONA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Good to see you, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Thanks for being with us.
CARDONA: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Tony, let me start by putting a little heat on you.
And, then, Maria, you can take it up, and you guys can kind of argue it out.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: But here's the argument to you that some of the folks on the left would make. Health policy analysts and -- and economists of nearly every ideological persuasion agree that the unrelenting rise in medical costs in this country is likely to wreak havoc within the system and beyond, and it's going to affect just about everyone, and that there's no way, if we continue without doing anything, without doing anything, that the rise in premiums won't go way beyond the rise, for example -- or the lack of a rise, I should say, in the salaries of people in the United States.
So, it is going to have an effect. Some would even argue, it could help to cripple our economy. Why, then, do you keep saying we don't need health care reform?
BLANKLEY: All right. First, I don't say we don't need health care reform, but two points.
SANCHEZ: All right.
BLANKLEY: First -- first of all, the -- I agree that the cost in delivering health care, both in the public and the private sector, is going up too fast. I would argue -- and many argue -- that the proposals before Congress do not fix that.
Two, not only do the proposals not fix that, but it adds another 20 million or 30 million people to be provided health care who currently are not being fully provided health care, so that increases the cost even more to society, and particularly to the taxpayer, so that, on both counts, this bill does not solve the problem, but, in fact, moves in the wrong direction.
SANCHEZ: Maria?
CARDONA: I would say that it is, in fact, because this bill covers 32 million additional Americans who currently don't have coverage, who will have to be now paying into that system, is one of the reasons why this bill will work.
It is clear that the current system is completely unsustainable for our economy, for small businesses, for American families. We have to change this. If not, -- we will never we will never get to a full-on economic recovery...
BLANKLEY: Let -- let...
CARDONA: ... in the way that we should.
BLANKLEY: Let me address you. You have raised a good point, and I think there's good data on this. The argument used to be that people who are not -- don't have health insurance go into emergency wards and increase the cost to the society of getting treatment.
But the studies show, quite to the contrary, that, while they do go into emergency wards, and that is more expensive when they go there, overall, they use health care less. Now, maybe they should be getting more, but they use health care less. And if we buy them insurance and subsidize it, which is what we're doing, we will in fact net increase the total costs of health care to American economy.
CARDONA: But -- but, at the end of the day, when they go do use that health care, they're a lot sicker than they would have been...
BLANKLEY: That's another...
CARDONA: ... at the very beginning...
BLANKLEY: That's another point. That's a...
SANCHEZ: Good point.
BLANKLEY: That's a separate -- that's a separate point.
CARDONA: ... that -- that they would have been at the beginning.
BLANKLEY: We're talking about costs.
CARDONA: So -- but, so again, but, so again...
BLANKLEY: We're talking...
CARDONA: That -- at the end of the day, Tony, that...
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: ... increases costs...
BLANKLEY: No.
CARDONA: ... to the whole system.
BLANKLEY: That -- no. You...
CARDONA: If that -- if that wasn't the case, then you wouldn't have leading economists...
BLANKLEY: Look, if I...
CARDONA: ... from the left and the right basically saying that we need this...
BLANKLEY: No.
CARDONA: ... for our economic recovery.
BLANKLEY: Look, if I drop -- if I drop dead right now, my health care cost to society is zero.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: You know, there's one other point that I want to bring up. And this is an interesting one, because...
CARDONA: So, now you're for killing everybody.
BLANKLEY: No, I'm just talking about myself.
(LAUGHTER) SANCHEZ: Guys, there -- there's an interesting point that is to be made here. And I think both sides exaggerate this point.
You know, the Republicans are saying, you can't do this because there's more important things to do, like creating jobs for Americans. And then the -- the -- you know, the left, the Dems, you will hear them say, oh, this is going to be the greatest thing in the world because it's going to save the economy.
What is the truth there? Because it -- it is true, is it not, Tony, to a certain extent, that, if I'm making cars in Michigan, and I know that I can move my plant to Canada, and I could then have workers and pay them $4 or $5 an hour less because I don't have to pay for these incredible premiums on -- on health insurance or...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: ... surcharge, won't I -- isn't that creating jobs?
BLANKLEY: Look, it's certainly the case that the $1,500 per car that health care costs go on a GM car make it harder for them to compete. I -- there's -- there's no question about that...
SANCHEZ: Right.
BLANKLEY: ... although, when GM or Ford has a good product, they're very competitive. So, the -- there -- there are advantages and disadvantages to both sides.
But I -- look, I want to get to the central point that -- that the Democrats are trying to close this debate on, which is that they're going to reduce the deficit. And that's where you get into the CBO. By the way, I was listening to you earlier in the afternoon, and you were saying that Republicans used to rely on CBO, now that we don't -- now we don't like it.
Not true. When I was working for Newt, the Republicans in the '90s, both when we were in the minority and the majority, constantly criticized, on the record, the methodology of CBO. So, we have long criticized them...
SANCHEZ: Really?
BLANKLEY: ... regarding...
SANCHEZ: Well, I -- I...
BLANKLEY: ... regarding the -- regarding the dynamic or -- or static interpretation of tax revenue consequences.
But, tonight -- but, right now, the -- the big claim that the Democrats are making is that the CBO has scored their program to -- to be a deficit saver. That is correct. But CBO is required to assume that everything that the Democratic bill says will happen in the future will happen. So, for instance, if they say we're going to cut costs by 20 percent in the government in the out years, CBO must assume that eve, though, politically, it's not going to happen. That's the dispute we're having right now regarding the CBO.
SANCHEZ: But -- but you don't think, as -- as -- as Michael Steele said, though, on this show yesterday, that it's a lie, do you?
BLANKLEY: No. Michael Steele, I disagree with on that point. The -- this is a technical...
SANCHEZ: OK.
BLANKLEY: This is a technical and analytical point. It's not a personality...
SANCHEZ: No, no, I get it. I -- no, I get it. And, by the way, I mentioned this just a while ago. Republicans have brought two points to the forefront, A, that this -- this CBO report isn't including the $371 billion in spending for physician fees.
BLANKLEY: OK.
SANCHEZ: B, it is also not including the Cadillac tax on high-cost insurance plans, even though -- and this is because of union pressure, by the way...
BLANKLEY: Yes.
SANCHEZ: ... the president pushed the tax back to 2018, but it's still going to be there, and it's not being included.
So, look, trying to be right down the middle here, Tony.
Maria, Tony...
BLANKLEY: Love it, just love it here.
SANCHEZ: ... thanks -- thanks so much.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: We appreciate -- we appreciate both of you coming on...
BLANKLEY: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: ... and -- and sparring respectfully, the way that you did.
CARDONA: Thank you, Rick.
BLANKLEY: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: A lot more coming your way.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. A lot of stuff is moving right now, and some of it is coming in the form that of the lists that we keep every day. We call it RICK'S LIST.
One of our principal lists is on Twitter, where we follow elected officials to see if they're making news. One big piece of news is being made right now by Mary Jo Kilroy.
She's saying, "Fixing the broken status quo is just too important to wait."
Here we go. This changes the tally somewhat. "I will vote yes on health care. Thank you for standing with me."
So, Mary Jo Kilroy now voting yes.
I've got so many lists in front of me here as we execute RICK'S LIST for you. Let me just look at the numbers here. Stay with me here, if you will, folks.
She becomes the fifth today to declare herself as a "yes." One, two, three, four. She follows Charlie Wilson of Ohio; Dina Titus of Nevada; Carol Shea-Porter of New Hampshire; and John Boccieri of Ohio as going from undeclared to "yes." So that means five.
And John Boccieri is going to be joining us in just a little bit.
Still, though, the total vote -- and stay with me here as we work through this. Let me get a pen.
Again, let me do the numbers here for you. This is the House, right. We've got 200 -- darn it. I am so sorry. We've got 207 nos.
That doesn't really change that, but it moves up these numbers. And remember, we've got to get here to -- 216 is the total. All right?
By the way, let me fix this. Two hundred and seven nos is where we are right now.
Steve, as we move forward, this is just the newest that we've gotten lately, right? So this is the newest --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's correct. She's the latest we have. This brings -- of the 100 or so Democrats that we were taking a close look at who were most likely to vote no, she's now the 19th to officially come out and say she'll vote yes.
She had been holding out over costs. She also is in a really, really close race for re-election back in Ohio, a swing district in Columbus, Ohio. It will be a fascinating race this fall.
SANCHEZ: So this -- to a certain extent, it's kind of a courageous move on her part.
Craig Crawford, before we go to break, I just want to go to you for your reaction on this one if you could, for the 10 or 20 seconds you can give us. Your reaction on the fact that we're starting to see a little momentum now in yeses, in that the last five have come in as yeses on the Dems' side?
CRAWFORD: The majority leaders in the House always have the power to add those sweeteners at the last minute that we're seeing. And there are going to be some more. Hill of Indiana, he wants the tax on medical devices companies that are in his district lowered -- or the increase that they're planning. So we're going to see some of this.
SANCHEZ: Oh, the deals that can be strung together here at the last minute. I can only imagine.
Craig, stand by.
Steve, thank you so much.
Our thanks to Twitter for being able to provide us that piece of news as it came in.
And we will be talking to Craig once again when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We've got some breaking news. As we were among the very first to report here on RICK'S LIST earlier this week, it's a report by a federal bankruptcy auditor who found evidence that Lehman Brothers cooked its books in 2008 to cover up the fact that it was on the way toward going under. But it didn't tell investors that, didn't tell the government that.
Among those cited in this report -- remember we told you about this report? I kept telling you it was the Valucas (ph) report? He's a -- former Lehman CEO Dick Fuld was targeted in this report, named specifically. Lehman's bankruptcy was one of the biggest in history.
OK. Here's the news. Are you ready? We just got this release from the office of Christopher Dodd.
It was the day that I was, to a certain extent, journalistically putting heat on Dodd for saying that there would be no punitive action taken, and it was also the day that I interviewed Senator Kaufman of Delaware, who said he wants punitive action taken. In fact, he said, "Throw these guys in prison."
Well, Dodd himself -- let me read you the letter -- this is interesting, folks. And we're just now getting it. So bear with me.
Today, Senator Dodd sent a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder asking that he commission a taskforce to investigate activities at Lehman Brothers and at other companies that may have engaged in similar accounting manipulation with a view to prosecution of those who broke the law.
Wow. This is Christopher Dodd asking the attorney general of the United States to investigate the activities at Lehman Brothers to see if they can be prosecuted for breaking the law.
Hell of a story coming in. I'm glad we're able to share it with you.
We'll be taking this to Craig Crawford and some of our other analysts real quick.
Craig, just 20 seconds, are you surprised by that? Because it's just the opposite of what -- at least the spirit of what we heard from Dodd when he gave his news conference the other day. Why the flip?
CRAWFORD: Well, he's not needing to raise money for re-election again.
(LAUGHTER)
CRAWFORD: He's out of office. He doesn't need it.
SANCHEZ: It sounds like he's willing to slam these guys, or at least --
CRAWFORD: Now.
SANCHEZ: Yes. Yes. Point well made.
Stay there. We're coming right back. A lot of news moving. And we'll keep the count going on Capitol Hill as well, as far as the health care reform bill is concerned.
I'm Rick Sanchez.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. It's time for, as indicated on our piece of paper here, "The Brooke Block." This is her list, folks.
BALDWIN: Spending megabucks on that white board for me. Yes.
SANCHEZ: Listen, I wanted to give you some kind of important, highfalutin invitation there.
BALDWIN: Hey, thanks.
SANCHEZ: You know?
BALDWIN: Hey, highfalutin.
All right. So I've got three stories on my list for you.
SANCHEZ: Take it away.
BALDWIN: This first one out of Chicago, I want to warn you, though, the video's kind of tough to watch. But it proves a point and I'll explain.
You're looking -- this is from the perspective of the engineer. Look at these people running across. This is Chicago's commuter train. This is the Metro.
It's releasing this video moments before --
SANCHEZ: Oh, no!
BALDWIN: Yes, moments before the train hits this woman and her 1- year-old niece. You see them there running across, trying to beat the train.
SANCHEZ: She's carrying a child?
BALDWIN: They didn't make it.
SANCHEZ: She has a baby in her arms?
BALDWIN: Had a 1-year-old niece in her arms. And so they're releasing this video -- let me make this point. They're releasing this video to get this message across to riders -- and this applies in Chicago and elsewhere -- you know, when you try to do this, run across the tracks, you're putting yourself at risk, this is dangerous.
Guess what though? The engineers from Metro, they see people doing this every single day. Every single day.
SANCHEZ: And in cars, too.
BALDWIN: And in cars. Most people make it, few don't. Case and point.
SANCHEZ: That's a heck of a way to make a point.
What else you got?
BALDWIN: Story two, Steve Jobs, Apple's CEO. Last time you and I chatted about him was when he was unveiling the iPad. You remember, a couple of months ago. That's the last time we saw him publicly.
Here he is in a children's hospital, sitting across from -- you recognize that guy. That was Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.
They're announcing their support of legislation in California to increase opportunities for organ donation. Because you remember Steve Jobs. He was on the receiving end of a liver transplant in Tennessee last April after taking a leave of absence. He had a bout with a rare form of pancreatic cancer in 2004.
So we wish him well.
Third story on my list, I know we're talking all health care, but there's another big story brewing in Washington. A lot of people on Sunday will be heading to D.C. because what they want to do is they want to talk immigration reform.
And we're looking at these pictures because, essentially, they want immigrants who are here in the United States illegally to be able to pay taxes, be counted, you know, and stay here. And so a lot of these organizations and a lot of these immigrants --
SANCHEZ: Oh, so they're pro-immigration.
BALDWIN: Pro-immigration reform. They'll be in D.C.
SANCHEZ: George Bush and John McCain tried, along with their commerce secretary, Guttierez, they tried immigration reform, and that was just literally put down by the right wing radio in the United States.
BALDWIN: They're hoping -- and President Obama has said -- we haven't seen specifics from him yet. He said it's something he'll certainly tackle. But, you know, health care has been priority number one for him.
But we've seen a couple of different senators, Schumer, Lindsey Graham, they're kind of working on some bipartisan legislation. So, Sunday, big day on the Hill for them as well.
SANCHEZ: I'll tell you what, if this president goes from health care to comprehensive immigration reform, you're talking about --
BALDWIN: Busy guy.
SANCHEZ: -- from the frying pan into the fire, right?
BALDWIN: Busy guy, right?
SANCHEZ: Forget busy. It's just like you can't take more controversial things and throw them out there.
BALDWIN: Hot-button issue number one and number two.
SANCHEZ: Yes, exactly. Good stuff. Appreciate the report.
BALDWIN: You got it.
SANCHEZ: All right. This is the guy that you want to hear from. This is a Democratic congressman who is going to be joining me here in just a little bit, who came forward and said today that he has staked a position on health care reform. It came as a bit of a surprise to most people.
He's joining me here next.
Stay with us. We'll be right back with Congressman John Boccieri.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Changes today just to keep -- welcome back, by the way. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Two firm "nos" today. One of them happened on our air with Congressman Cao -- Republican, by the way -- of Louisiana. And we've now have five "yeses" today, folks who were undeclared and have gone to yes. One of those is Congressman John Boccieri, a Democrat of Ohio. This morning, he publicly announced his "yes" vote, and he's good enough to join us now.
Why did you make that decision, Congressman?
REP. JOHN BOCCIERI (D), OHIO: Thanks, Rick.
After the compelling stories that I hear from across the country, and especially in my district, I felt that this was the right decision. Too many families are finding the cost of health care insurance to be one medical emergency, one accident away from complete bankruptcy. I had three families from my district at the press conference today, and we highlighted the fact that many of them have been denied coverage.
SANCHEZ: Did you have to swallow hard to do this based on the fact that there's a lot of folks in your particular precinct who -- in your district, I should say, who are opposed to your decision, and this could cost you at the polls?
BOCCIERI: Well, there are some folks who are not supportive, but I just got a call before I went on the air from a Republican in my district that said, "Thank you for the courage, for standing up and doing what you thought was right," and he wants reform.
We're faced with a decision here. You know, do we pass an imperfect bill or do we do nothing? And those two decisions come at a cost.
If we do nothing, the cost of health care's going to explode. Families are already struggling.
SANCHEZ: What do you say then to Republicans who say, look, yes, we want to do something, but this is the wrong time to do something. You know? We've got serious problems in this country with the economy, and what we should do is pass legislation to create jobs, not worry about health care now. We can worry about that down the road.
What do you say to them?
BOCCIERI: Well, for me, this was a jobs bill, Rick, because the largest employer of my congressional district is a hospital. And in my congressional district, there's $56 million of uncompensated care that's going to be recovered under the passage of this bill.
That's money coming back to keep people working in our community. Too often, folks who don't have insurance wind up in the emergency room, and all of us pay five times more in the system. So that's going to actually save money and create jobs, too.
SANCHEZ: What was keeping you from making a decision? Why are you an 11th-hour guy?
BOCCIERI: Well, I wanted to look at the final numbers of the Congressional Budget Office. I'm a fiscally conservative Democrat, and I believe that we need to have reform, but we need to do it in a way that doesn't explode the deficits, has cost containment, and goes after fraud, waste and abuse.
SANCHEZ: Well, let me ask you about those CBO numbers, because the Republicans are coming back now, and they're saying, look, the problem with the CBO numbers is they're inaccurate because they're not including, among other things, $371 billion in spending for physician fees, they're not including the Cadillac tax on the high-cost insurance plans that's going to kick in, in 2018. I know the president pushed it back.
Do they have a point?
BOCCIERI: I think -- by the way, Republicans did not support some of those measures that we passed out of the House earlier in the year. But at the end of the day, the Congressional Budget Office is the Holy Grail of all the numbers that we --
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: So you trust them?
BOCCIERI: I do.
SANCHEZ: Congressman, let me hold you for just a moment here. I understand we've got some breaking news coming in.
BOCCIERI: Sure.
SANCHEZ: There might be another vote.
Steve -- my colleague Steve Brusk (ph) is joining me now. He's up here on set.
What have we got?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Evan Glass (ph) with our political unit confirms that Jason Altmire, Democrat in a conservative part of Pennsylvania, the fourth district there, he has now confirmed he'll be a "no" vote. That's not too big a shock. He was a "no" vote first time as well. But he is another Democratic "no" vote, which changes our total now to -- I'll let you do this.
SANCHEZ: Let me show them right here, because we have this number here, right, Steve, 207?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was 207.
SANCHEZ: So now it goes to 208.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To 208.
SANCHEZ: So this number here -- and I'm going to just change it in green right there -- that number goes to 208. So that means the number they need right now is one less, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's correct.
SANCHEZ: It means they now need 8 to get to 216 so that they can block this measure.
Have you got that right there? Let me put that right there for you.
You see, they were at 207. They are now at 208. That means they need 8 to get to 216, and that would block the folks who want "yes."
You worried about this, Congressman? You still there? You still with us?
BOCCIERI: I am. I am.
SANCHEZ: Look, we're tallying these as best we can. And we just found it's easier to tally the "nos" than the "yeses." It doesn't necessarily mean that the "nos" are beating the "yeses." But we just tally them as they come in.
What do you make of that?
BOCCIERI: Well, I understand that each member has to make the decision on their own, and they have to come to this consensus with the discussion that they have with their congressional district. And the discussion that I had with Natoma Canfield earlier in the week, she has a very compelling story of one of the reasons why we need reform.
SANCHEZ: You think you're going to win? Let me just ask you flat out because we've got to go. Last question, do you believe there are enough votes there to pass this? Will you get to that magic number of 216 before Sunday?
BOCCIERI: Talking to my colleagues, I believe we will indeed get to the number that we require for passage of the bill.
SANCHEZ: Congressman Boccieri, my thanks to you, sir, for taking time to take us through your thinking on this.
BOCCIERI: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: We're going to be right back with more on what's going on. And really, a really interesting look at this.
We've got Craig Crawford coming back, who is a really smart and funny guy in his own right. And then we've got Will Durst, who is a really funny and smart guy in his own right.
It's an interesting combination.
Stay right there. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back to RICK'S LIST. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Joining us now, syndicated columnist Will Durst, who is the author of the book that's called "The All-American Sport of Bipartisan Bashing." I read this guy's stuff over the weekend. Trust me, funny. And by the way, we also have Craig Crawford, who is standing by with us as well. And he's kind of funny in his own right as well.
CRAWFORD: Oh, but Will's the champ.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: All right.
CRAWFORD: Will Durst makes me laugh the way Old Yeller made me cry.
WILL DURST, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Oh, thank you, Craig.
SANCHEZ: Oh, that's a good line.
All right. So I've been trying to do this all day long. Right?
I'm being fed numbers and I'm trying to draw them out. And we just told folks that that 7 turned into an 8, which turned that 9 into an 8 to get to 216.
Hey, Will, I've got to tell you, this whole health care thing is really confusing for most Americans.
DURST: Well, I want to thank you for clearing it up with your cutting-edge technology, too. No, I love the white board. I love that fact that we're getting back to basics, which is what health care should be.
SANCHEZ: Well, I'm glad that we were able to help in any way.
How do you feel this president has been handling this situation?
DURST: Well, he's been kind of focused on it, but, I mean, people are crazy. And you've seen the rhetoric.
I mean, it's ratcheted up to a -- if you're not screaming across the outer orbit of Neptune, nobody hears you. You've got Rush Limbaugh threatening to leave the U.S. if health care passes, which, for a lot of people, is a big win-win.
SANCHEZ: You agree, Craig?
CRAWFORD: I was just thinking about your high-tech technology there. If this thing becomes as historic as Medicare, you need to save that for the Smithsonian.
SANCHEZ: Oh, you're right. We could maybe give that -- or to hell with the Smithsonian. Let's put it on eBay and see if we can make a couple bucks. Right?
CRAWFORD: There you go.
SANCHEZ: Somehow, I don't think CNN's going to let me do that.
Now, a big part of how this got started a year ago was with Tea Parties, Will. And folks were going out and they were saying they were just dead set against health care.
What was your impression of that movement back when it first started against health care?
DURST: Well, I think these people -- a lot of these things always get hijacked by the fringes. I mean, it happens on the left with the anti-war protests. You know, you've always got the sea turtle people. And it happened on the right with the black helicopter people. You know, government is bad, get government -- I saw a guy with a sign that said, "Stop socializing America and hands off my Medicare."
Well, dude, at least use two different signs. You know?
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: He did, didn't he?
Why were they confused, so many of the folks in these movements? And look, on the left and on the right.
Why do you believe, Craig, that they were so confused?
CRAWFORD: Well, I thing fear is always such a great motivator. I actually learned the other day that the part of your brain that creates fear is actually more evolved than the reasoning part of your brain.
SANCHEZ: Really?
CRAWFORD: The way the brain's actually -- the circuitry of the brain. So fear is always going to trump reason.
SANCHEZ: How big a role do you thing talk radio had? Because, look, I live here in Atlanta. And it's not to say that one side is better than the other. But there's only one side here.
When I get in my car, on my way home now, I can only hear, outside of urban radio or Spanish radio, I can only hear one opinion. And that's the opinion that says that Barack Obama is a dangerous man and a bad president.
DURST: Well, I think what happened is it got ratings. And I think what Craig said about fear is exactly right. I mean -- but everybody was trying to scare people.
The left was trying to scare people about what happens if we don't get health care. And the right was trying to scare people about what happens if we do get it.
But the problem is the Republicans are much more scary. I mean, you look at Mitch McConnell, he looks like a reanimated Halloween pumpkin.
SANCHEZ: That's not fair.
DURST: I know.
SANCHEZ: That's not even close to being fair. There's some odd looking Dems.
Hey, speaking of odd Dems, since you just put that thought in my head, I'm going to ask you about Eric Massa. That thing was crazy last week.
What was your take on it, Will?
DURST: Well, it was crazy, you're right. And Eric Massa, the Democratic congressman from New York, who, of course, is known amongst his congressional staffers as "Tickle Me Eric," I mean, this guy was too crazy for Glenn Beck. Glenn Beck washed his hands of him. And that's when you know you're entering odd territory.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Craig, your take? What's your punctuation on that?
CRAWFORD: Well, Eric Massa delivered us another great moment later in the week went Patrick Kennedy went on his rant against the media for covering Massa instead of the Afghan pullout resolution he was debating. And, by the way, he ended up voting against it even though he was complaining about the press not covering it.
SANCHEZ: Which proves once again that Crazyville can be visited by either side at any time, when you least expect it.
Hey, guys, this was great. We'll have to do this again. I think it's a great way to close out the week, to have humorists and satirists and take a good look at what we do, and put up that mirror and say, hey, it's OK to laugh every once in a while. Right?
DURST: Well, you guys have a great weekend, man.
SANCHEZ: I appreciate it.
DURST: Remember to take your vitamins, because this health care debate is making people sick.
SANCHEZ: Come on back. All right?
And I'm turning it over now to "THE SITUATION ROOM." Here's Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
Goodbye, everybody.
