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Rick's List
President Obama Signs Final Health Care Reform Bill; Militias on the Rise in America?; CODEPINK Punks Rove
Aired March 30, 2010 - 14:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Here's what's making THE LIST today -- they hate the government, hate the president, and would love to carry out violence in the name of their cause.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a cheap and easy recruiting tool. This should be a wake-up call.
SANCHEZ: As the ninth member of the Hutaree Militia is captured and sent before a judge today, we will drill down on where the hate is spewing from.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pretty obvious. We're coming to your door to tell you about it.
SANCHEZ: Jessica Yellin has the Tea Party on her list, just back from a stop in Nevada.
She strips, feigns being shot and then collapses at a very sad site in our American history. Eloquent art or offensive?
KARL ROVE, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BUSH: No, no, no, I didn't say go ahead. I would say, you get away.
SANCHEZ: Karl Rove punked by a CODEPINK lady who calls him a war criminal.
And did this man really ask the Republican Party to pick up the tab for this?
The lists you need to know about. Who's today's most intriguing? Who's making news on Twitter? It's why I keep a list, pioneering tomorrow's cutting-edge news right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez.
At the very top of THE LIST today, I want you to hear now a political statement issued by one of these nine people that is now being held for trying to start a war against the United States.
I'm talking about this guy right there. His name is Kristopher Sickles of Sandusky, Ohio. He is a figure well known within the militia movement. This is Kristopher Sickles addressing the question that you have heard me ask more than once. Kristopher Sickles posted this statement last august. Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTOPHER SICKLES, ALLEGED MILITIA MEMBER: It has nothing to do with the fact that we have a black president. I started my group several years ago, before we had a black president, when Bush was in office. They're trying to make as if, oh, all of a sudden, Obama is in office and now all of a sudden these militants are taking up arms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Believe it or don't believe it, but that is what he said, that essentially refuting the statement that a lot of the militia movements are being formed because there's a black president in the White House.
Now, I'm going to circle back to that in just a little bit, when I speak with this man. That's Michael Lackomar of the Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia, who is good enough to join us today. This will be interesting.
First, though, I need to talk about the ninth arrest of a member of the so-called Hutarees. That's him. That's Joshua Stone, another son of the alleged ringleader, David Stone. In the indictment, which I read to you yesterday, Josh Stone is described as the leader of one of two operational units. So, he would appear to be a key player in this.
Now I want to bring in militia member Michael Lackomar.
MICHAEL LACKOMAR, SOUTHEAST MICHIGAN VOLUNTEER MILITIA, MEMBER: How you doing?
SANCHEZ: Michael, thanks for being with us.
LACKOMAR: Thank you. How are you doing today?
SANCHEZ: You're not a Hutaree, right?
LACKOMAR: No, not by any stretch of the imagination.
SANCHEZ: But you are a militia member?
LACKOMAR: Yes, I am, and have been for five years.
SANCHEZ: Why are you a militia member?
LACKOMAR: Because I feel that it's my duty to protect my family, my neighborhood, and ultimately my nation.
SANCHEZ: But you have police officers in your community who could protect your family and you and your nation as well. Why do you need to do it personally? LACKOMAR: Well, we have seen time and time again that, just on the family level, that sometimes the response time of law enforcement is far greater than -- than is necessary to put a stop to a situation. And more often than not, our law enforcement ends up finding who did a crime, rather than preventing the crime.
SANCHEZ: So, basically, you're saying you're a guy who wants to have a gun in his home and protect his family in case he ever needs to use it; is that it?
LACKOMAR: That's the root of it. And then beyond that, you move out into the community. In times of trouble, when the police are overtaxed, when the local authorities are overtaxed, we're able as a unit, as members of the community, able to move out into the community and assist the community, freeing up the law enforcement and the emergency response to go to where they're more desperately needed.
SANCHEZ: So, the way you're presenting the militia to us now is, it's just a group of people who either, A, want to protect their families or, B, in a time of a crisis, will go out and assist police officers do their work. Why not just join police auxiliary? They do the same thing that you just described.
LACKOMAR: Well, my township doesn't have a police auxiliary, first and foremost.
Second of all, what we do with the militia allows us the time to train on our schedules and when it's best convenient for us.
SANCHEZ: Are you anti-government?
LACKOMAR: Not by any stretch of the imagination.
SANCHEZ: Why does it seem that most of the militias are?
LACKOMAR: Because time and again we have seen the government has a tendency to grow. The government has a tendency to encompass things and very rarely does the government let something go.
SANCHEZ: So, do we in the media and most of the people from the non-rural parts of the country, where you are, misunderstand militias altogether? Because the benign way in which you have just explained militias to me and to the rest of our viewers, we're kind of sitting here scratching our heads, saying, it sounds perfectly fine to me.
LACKOMAR: Well, you will find that there's a lot more units like us than units that call themselves militias, such as what we saw last weekend with the takedown.
SANCHEZ: So the Hutarees to you are what?
LACKOMAR: They are criminals. They are terrorists. They are bad eggs. The Hutaree is neither Christian, nor militia.
SANCHEZ: Yet, they say they are.
LACKOMAR: A lot of people say a lot of things that aren't necessarily true.
SANCHEZ: How much of the Christian foundation or fundamentalist foundation is found within your militia, and then the second part of the question is other militias in general?
LACKOMAR: We have a few members that are practicing faiths. We have got one member that's a Muslim. We have got myself. I'm not really practicing any faith. We have got Buddhists in our midst. We have got Jewish folks in our midst. It runs the gamut.
SANCHEZ: All right, tell me the truth now. Tell me the truth. When you sit down and talk to some of the other folks in your organization -- you sound like a very level-headed guy, you know, the kind of guy that most of our viewers would probably understand and enjoy a conversation with. But have you ever felt uncomfortable with some of the people in your organization who call themselves members or want to join your militia, but they start immediately spouting off this stuff that we hear all the time about how the government is coming with helicopters to take over our lives and we have to prepare for World War III, et cetera, et cetera?
You've heard all this palaver.
LACKOMAR: That does happen, because with the reputation we have gotten as a group, the people that are of that mind-set seek us out at our meetings and at our events to basically use us as a sound board --
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: And what do you do when you hear that, that kind of palaver?
LACKOMAR: Well, we try -- first of all, we will try to reasonably debate the issue with them. Sometimes, we're not successful in that. And to be perfectly honest, we have had people leave meetings amongst laughter and not come back.
SANCHEZ: How many of the -- help me understand this.
LACKOMAR: OK.
SANCHEZ: How many of the people out there who call themselves militias are more like you and how many are more like -- well, maybe not as far out as the Hutaree seem to be, but are more distrustful of the government, anti-government, anti-organized-government folks? How many?
Can you give -- I know it's not a scientific study, but just give me a number from your experience.
LACKOMAR: From my experience, most of your large militias are along the same lines we are. When you have one or two people that call themselves a militia and don't do anything more than set up a Web page or a MySpace profile, those are the ones that start to get outside of what we do.
SANCHEZ: Are you ideological in any way? Do you tend to vote Republican? Do you tend to vote Democrat?
(CROSSTALK)
LACKOMAR: I tend to vote conservative.
SANCHEZ: So, you would call yourself a conservative?
LACKOMAR: Yes, probably a libertarian-leaning conservative.
SANCHEZ: OK.
Listen, I appreciate your time. I appreciate your candor. And I'm glad you were able to come on and take us through this.
LACKOMAR: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: It's an interesting, interesting conversation, and I'm sure a lot of folks enjoyed what you had to say.
LACKOMAR: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Here's what else we're going to be following in just a little bit for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROVE: Here's the deal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The only comfort I take is that you're are going to rot in hell.
ROVE: You know what? If you want to keep interrupting me, you can get the heck out of here. No, no, no, I didn't say go ahead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Yes, this is incivility now from the left. That's right. Karl Rove is assailed by angry anti-war protesters. It happened last night. It's ahead.
Also, winter's ending, and the flooding is getting bad. And I am going to tell you where. Chad's going to join me in just a little bit.
Also, you're going to see the president of the United States signing what is the final version of the health care bill. I know it gets a bit confusing, but we will explain. And, again, we want you to see it for yourself, so stick around and you will.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(WEATHER UPDATE)
SANCHEZ: Let's talk about this. Protesters are chanting "Let him go" as one of their own is taken away. I'm going to tell you where this happened.
Also, what's the fascination with Tea Parties, right? Jessica Yellin just returned from covering the Tea Party rally in Nevada. Yellin's list, it's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CALLER: Hey, Rick. This is Dina (ph) in Georgia.
Would you please remind the Tea Party people that they are not the only ones that voted, and that Washington is listening to the other voters? You know, maybe not listening to them, but they're not the only ones that voted.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Let's do the list of little-known facts. Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Did you know that Jill Biden still teaches community college? She does, even though her husband's the vice president. And she was wearing red today and there in attendance when the president signed the so-called fixes to health care reform. Those fixes, by the way, include a huge expansion of the federal student loan program, hence Ms. Biden's personal interest.
Mr. Biden was not there, even though this was a big deal, big deal.
Time now for Yellin's list.
Did you get that?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I know what you were saying there. Good little joke.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: I was being sneaky.
Our national correspondent is Jessica Yellin, and she joins us now because she spent the weekend following Sarah Palin and the folks who follow Sarah Palin.
And you were with us Friday, when Sarah Palin fired up the John McCain rally. I wasn't here. T.J. was filling in for me, so I missed that moment. How did she do Saturday at the so-called conservative Woodstock?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, it wasn't the same. She was on fire on Friday in Tucson with John McCain.
And, at the Tea Party event, she was much more subdued. She did not have the same energy level. But I will tell you, Rick, the folks who were there didn't notice. They adored her. They were excited to see her, and the crowd really thinned out after she spoke, so they got what they wanted from Sarah Palin that day.
SANCHEZ: Let me -- let me cut to the chase on Sarah Palin.
YELLIN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Is Sarah Palin preparing to run for the presidency, or not?
YELLIN: You know, I don't know. Is she maybe building a multimedia brand? Is she potentially going to have a, you know, political talk show and a reality show about Alaska and a political message and a big following? I'm not sure that she's running for president.
And she definitely doesn't have to get into the race for quite a while. If she wants to, she could let many others declare. She could see what the Republican field looks like and wait until the very last minute, because she has the following and the ability to raise money, to do it fast at the end, if that's what she wants.
SANCHEZ: Well, but -- but --
YELLIN: I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't.
SANCHEZ: Her -- she would be betting, though -- and, by the way, you can make more money following a brand, a creative brand, like the one she's doing, with a multimedia platform --
YELLIN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: -- than you could being president of the United States in this political environment.
But will this political environment last? I'm just thinking, the folks who like her are the folks who say and feel that they're somehow disenfranchised, at least from this administration.
You know, as we say in journalism, what's the shelf life of that group?
YELLIN: Right.
Well, that's what I think is the big question. And we don't know yet. The Tea Party movement to date has not been successful in electing a candidate. And it does seem -- and they have fielded a number of candidates who have gotten Tea Party support in various districts who have not won.
So, the question is, can this momentum be corralled into supporting people for elected office? They were very explicit, more explicit than I have heard, at this past weekend calling on audience members to go out and vote, and they had a lot of Republican candidates from Nevada there asking for their vote. But there does seem to be an inherent contradiction, because lots of the Tea Party folks just naturally -- it feels like they want a third party, so pushing their votes toward the Republican Party is maybe electorally smart. It's more likely that could work. But emotionally it feels like they're so upset with the whole system, a third party would make more sense. So, there's an internal tension there, and I don't know how that will shake out. We will have to see.
SANCHEZ: Yes, I'm just wondering. When all this stuff was going on last week --
YELLIN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: -- and all the accusations that there was a lot of incivility and the folks screaming at some of the congressmen, et cetera, et cetera, Sarah Palin watches the news. She has handlers who they tell her these things.
YELLIN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Did you sense in her message that she would -- that she was taking it back a little bit, pulling it back a little bit so she wouldn't be accused of being -- quote -- "inciter"?
YELLIN: No.
SANCHEZ: No?
YELLIN: No, quite the opposite. She really -- and I get the sense she truly believes this, that the media is doing this to her, that she is -- she directly accused the media of mischaracterizing her comments or putting them in the wrong context and unfairly accusing of her of inciting people to violence and twisting her meaning to seem uncivil, when, in fact, she says all she means to do is ask people to go out and vote and to express them.
And, boy, did that resonate with the crowd.
SANCHEZ: But hold on a minute. Let's be fair about this. That's her version of events, but the version of events that I know is that it was her Web page, correct, that had the crosshairs on?
YELLIN: Right. And she insists that that has no meaning beyond, let's go and vote.
And, Rick, what I'm saying is these -- the people who are Palin believers see her view entirely. They share her view, and believe -- the people I spoke with believe truly that the media is being biased, and any suggestion that she is not being fully truthful is simply biased, that there are not two sides to this story, there are not two ways to come out of this; there's the right way and then the biased way.
And that's the message I got from talking to so many people that day. They really feel, if you don't agree with them, you just are not hearing them at all. SANCHEZ: It's kind of like one of those, it's what I believe and what is wrong.
(LAUGHTER)
YELLIN: Correct.
SANCHEZ: Jessica Yellin, thanks so much. Interesting discussion. We appreciate it. That's Yellin's list.
YELLIN: Good to see you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look what you did. You outed a CIA officer. You lied to take us to war. You ruined a country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Yes, those charges are being leveled at Karl Rove. Well, this is incivility from the left. You will see it play out. That's ahead, right here.
Also, he's finally made it official by announcing something that many people keep to themselves. He is our most interesting person -- pardon me. I flopped that completely. He is our most intriguing person in the news today. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
Time now to check THE LIST to see who the most intriguing person is in the news today. Have you guessed it yet?
He is 39 years old, but a new chapter in his life begins right now. You have known him since his boy band days in the 1980s. And then came superstardom. The tabloids have always dogged him to reveal his sexual orientation. His answer all those years, none of your business. He even put off a persistent Barbara Walters a decade ago.
In fact, here it is. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA WALTERS, ABC: You know, you could stop these rumors. You could say, as many others have, yes, I am gay, or you could say, no, I'm not.
RICKY MARTIN, MUSICIAN: Barbara, for some reason, I just don't feel like it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Well, you know who he is now. He's known for "Livin' la Vida Loca." Ricky Martin has a book coming out, and he says it has freed him to tell the truth. He writes today, "I am proud to say that I am a fortunate homosexual man" -- Ricky Martin out of the closet, newly strong, and today's most intriguing person in the news.
And with that, we have intercepted a Ricky Martin tweet. Let's go to it. You know we check our lists every day. He's on our celebrity list, so let's do and see what he writes.
"What's going on gang?" he says. "I'm doing great, stronger than ever. I'm here relaxing at home enjoying your messages. I feel the love. Thanks for all. Peace" -- Ricky Martin no doubt getting a lot of reaction since the statement that he made yesterday.
Here's what else is coming our way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK POTOK, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: When politicians talk about Obama as a fascist, as a socialist, as a man who is setting up death panels or political reeducation camps for our children, you know, some people take that, that kind of rhetoric, literally, and act.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Mark Potok, as blunt as we have ever seen him on the cause of incivility in America. That's ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look like suspect is out of the car. Now, remember, there's people right behind him. Suspect is, they may be shooting at him. Pull out, pull out, pull out, pull out.
It looks like that -- I think he's giving up
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: A California car chase. Now -- yes, a California car chase, what else is new, right? Wait. This one's more interesting, because it's almost right in Universal Studios. That's right, a kids attraction. That's next on THE LIST.
By the way, if you want to be here in the studio audience to help us with the show, take part, or just watch, all you got to do's call this number for a special tour that we now offer, 1-877-4CNN-TOUR, 1- 877-4CNN-TOUR. I know I was in New York yesterday, and I missed it. I apologize for that. And my thanks to Chad Myers for filling in.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: By the way, there's a very important live event that's about to take place at the White House, and we'll be taking you there. It's Nicolas Sarkozy, and his very famous wife, they're going to be joining the president and the first lady in just a little bit, and we'll be covering that for you live as it happens, so stay tuned.
Meanwhile, what is it with bicycles and protesters these days? I'm asking that question because I'm thinking of pictures here, as in "Fotos."
Last week, we brought you this video of a protester hurling a bicycle at a police officer, and we guffawed. Now, it's the officers' turn to multi-purpose their bicycles. That's right.
And, again, it all went down in Portland, Oregon. Wielding two wheels officers prodded, poked, and pushed back at these crowds of protesters. Several were arrested after about 100 demonstrators crowded downtown streets with masks and flags, protesting recent police shootings that have taken place there.
Not too far. I want to take you now to Burbank, California -- blue lights, sky-cam, and action. Another high-speed chase fit for the movies got a Hollywood ending near the Universal Studios' parking lot. After a suspenseful false stop, the driver pulled off for more action.
He was perfect for the role. Outside the car it looked like he was almost trying to dodge bullets. Finally he's caught after being shot. It turns out he's wanted in Indiana for attempted murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED), you, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you and your cheeseburgers, (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: OK. Crack-a-tella, the luck of the Irish was not with this guy as he picked a fight on St. Patrick's Day. His victim turned out to be a trained wrestler, and down goes Frazier. Whoa. He came in for a cheeseburger, but he brought his own buns.
This guy started with fists in the air at the Texas fast-food joint, but as Larry Platt on "American Idol" put it, he ended up with his -- looking like a fool with his pants on the ground.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looking like a fool with your pants on the ground!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Yes.
Nine Massachusetts teens face charges in this case. This is after a 15-year-old girl has, well, hung herself. How can that be? A special report on this is coming up in just a little bit.
Also this --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROVE: No, no, I didn't say go ahead. I said you get away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "You get away." Karl Rove stands his ground while being told to "rot in hell" -- that's a direct quote -- for the Iraq war. That's next on THE LIST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. Stay with us, because we're going to be taking you to a lot of fresh video over the next hour as the president of the United States meets the president of France.
Here's the very first video. We got this just a little while ago. There's President Sarkozy arriving at the White House. As I look at the itinerary here, I'm told that the president and the vice president are both going to meet with President Sarkozy of France.
This is where they first greet him at 3:30 in that video you just saw there. At 4:45, a joint press availability, which we're going to cover live for you here. And then they'll have more meetings, including joining up with the first ladies. Of course, Carla Bruni will be there, and I'm sure all the paparazzi and all the cameras are going to be clicking away on that. That's later this evening, around 6:00.
So we're going to be covering all this. If there's any other pictures or any other events as we cover them. You can imagine the European press will be all over this as well, so it will be a busy day in Washington. If you're trying to get around and you're backed up, there's a reason for it.
Also this story in politics today making THE LIST. Political acts of incivility, it seems like it's been the topic of the last four or five days. Now, the latest. This is a video of Karl Rove, Karl Rove being assailed publicly last night.
The former Bush adviser was in Los Angeles to sign his brand new book. He tweeted the time and the place.
And then he showed up to a crowd of about 100 people, but not all of them were supporters, because they knew he was going to be there, because they read his tweets. Now, before he could get started, anti- war protesters started shouting him down.
I want you to watch this story as it develops in perspective. It's a report as it's prepared by Dave Bryant of affiliate KCAL.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ROVE: No, no, I didn't say go ahead. I was saying you get away.
DAVE BRYANT, KCAL: Former White House senior adviser and deputy chief of staff Karl Rove was shouted down and forced to leave by a small group of anti-war protesters at a book signing event in Beverly Hills. The co-founder of the anti-war group CODEPINK tried to make a citizen's arrest of rove and advance toward him with a pair of handcuffs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look what you did. You outed a CIA officer. You lied to take us to war. You ruined the country, totally ruined the country!
BRYANT: As CODEPINK co-founder Jodie Evans was pushed away, another protester confronted Rove, charging he's a war criminal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here's the deal --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're going to rot in hell.
BRYANT: With no visible security around, Rove was left to fend for himself, and engaged the protesters in some heated exchanges.
ROVE: With all due respect, this goes to show the totalitarianism of the left. They don't believe in dialogue. They don't believe in courtesy. They don't believe in first amendment rights for anybody but themselves.
BRYANT: The signs of conflict came early in the program, when another anti-war member of the audience accused Rove of participating in a campaign to purposely lie to and mislead the American people about Saddam Hussein and weapons of mass destruction. ROVE: You know what, if you want to keep interrupting me, you can get the heck out of here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Interestingly enough, Rove left without signing a single book because of the problem.
And I should tell you something else -- he continues to tweet his location. We've been checking today. He's on our list of politicos, obviously. Go ahead, rob, go to the tweet from Karl Rove.
He's on "RICK'S LIST," and this is from the daily incident "Going to be at Border's bookstore in Thousand Oaks, California, today, from 12:00 to 2:00. Hope to see you there. Meet Karl." And he continues to be very transparent about this kind of stuff, and his prerogative.
Take a look at this -- bondage. Bondage? We now know which GOP official picked up the tab. I have no idea what this video is, by the way. I guess that's the nightclub? OK. We're supposed to figure that out.
All right, folks, that's one of those risque nightclubs that men shouldn't go to but sometimes do, and there was a Republican that picked up a hefty tab there. We'll take you to it.
Also, is talk radio fueling the crazies? Why is talk radio dominated by the right? I'll ask the publisher of "Talker's" magazine and the man who advised presidents about talk radio. Michael Harrison joins me next, and I am looking forward this conversation. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: I will tell you right now, I love talk radio. I just love radio in general. I grew up with it. I'm one of those guys who can sit there and listen to the radio all day long. And I love talk radio -- from the left, from the middle, from the right, all of it.
However, I live in a place -- because I live in the south -- where there really is no middle or left when it comes to talk radio. Just to be real honest with you, folks -- it's all from the right, completely, unless you're listening in Spanish or in urban radio.
What is that causing? Well, listen to an interview I did yesterday, which kept me thinking a lot about this. This is Mark Potok with the Southern Poverty Law Center addressing the sudden resurgence of these right wing militias. Here's what he says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK POTOK, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: I think the factors that are driving this are a nonwhite president in a country that is not used to it, all that represents in terms the demographic change, real anger about the state of the economy, also real anger and frustration about the way the government has dealt with the state of the economy.
And in particular things like multimillion dollar bonuses for the bankers who arguably drove the economy into the ground and the rest of it.
I think on top of that, it's really important to know that there's been a lot of mainstream pushing of very radical ideas by politicians and some commentators. So when politicians talk about Obama as a fascist, a socialist, a man setting up death panels or political reeducation camps for our children, some people take that kind of rhetoric literally and act.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: That's Mark Potok, describing what you obviously were hearing. He called them "commentators," but in many ways, he went on to describe and has in the past that he's talking about certain commentators who are radio talk show hosts. And he seems to be suggesting that they're the ones who are inciting the government militias.
Michael Harrison joins me now. He's the publisher of "Talkers" magazine, which is the leading tad trade publication of talk radio industry. This guy knows so much about radio he's served as an adviser to three presidents in the past, three presidents. So he's the perfect guest and I've wanted to have him on for a long time.
Michael, thanks for being with us.
MICHAEL HARRISON, EDITOR AND PUBLISHER, "TALKERS" MAGAZINE: Thank you, Mark.
SANCHEZ: Rick. I look a little bit like a Mark.
Let's start at the beginning. My first assertion I made a little while ago, why is talk radio in the United States, certainly the southern United States, all from the right?
HARRISON: Well, it's not just right wing talk radio from the right, and it's very popular. If you looked around your dial, you would find National Public Radio and you'd probably find news stations and sports stations and shock jocks on FM stations who do talk shows, and they might be more liberal or middle of the road in terms of their social policies, even their politics.
But there's no question that news talk radio has its biggest stars, they are conservatives. But you're getting into a very complex arena --
SANCHEZ: But let me stop you. Let me stop you. OK, it's true, essentially, that if you live in a place like Atlanta and you go ca- ching, ca-ching, ca-ching and you're turning the dial from A.M. talk to A.M. talk, you're going to get Obama's dangerous, he's a horrible president, he's destroying the country, hide your children, whatever.
But it's like after another, it's like a drumbeat, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And they make great points, I'm not saying they're all wrong or anything like that. But it's the same thing, it's the sameness.
Now, is it because they're better at it? They've known how to reach that market? Or is it because some of the people in the industry prefer to have people with business/conservative viewpoints hosting those shows? What's driving it?
HARRISON: I think there's a little bit of truth to all of it. What I think is driving is that conservatives in America are a much more targetable bunch than liberals. Liberals are all over the place. Liberals are really non-conservatives. Conservatives are people who for years --
SANCHEZ: Boy, is that ever a truism? Liberals are non- conservatives.
HARRISON: You may think it sounds funny, but the fact is it's like Jews and non-Jews, blacks and non-blacks.
SANCHEZ: I get it.
HARRISON: They're not equal sides of the same coin.
So, in radio, which is a niche medium, you have to target an audience that you can get at least a five share in, five percent of the total audience, and you can be number one.
The numbers, you know, people think that everybody's listening to these talk show hosts. They're not. They're really targeting small niches when you look at the general population, but large enough niches to be able to sell commercial time and be number one in a very fragmented marketplace.
SANCHEZ: OK, now, to Mark Potok's point, is there a possibility that because they're all trying to beat each other, in an effort to outdo the next guy -- I mean, I guess I won't name names, but, yes, I will. There are some guys I listen to out there, Medved, for example, seems smart, seems reasonable to have cogent arguments -- Bennett, for example, definitely way, way, way, to the right, but cogent, sound arguments.
And then there are other guys you listen to, and it's just Katie by the door. The stuff coming out of his mouth is, wow, did he just say that? I hope someone didn't take him at face value and believe that.
Are there people out there who, in order to get above the next guy, on your magazine -- because I know you rank these guys -- will say some outlandish, crazy stuff that they may not even believe?
HARRISON: Well, the answer is yes, and that's part of the culture. We live in a sensationalist culture. You see it with the reality TV shows, you see that with movies. You see it all across the board, so why not in radio?
Interestingly though, some of the more outrageous ones are the wannabes, the ones that are not at the top of the list. When you're talking about -- obviously they're controversial.
But I'm glad you mentioned someone like a Michael Medved or William Bennett. There are many talk show hosts out there who are conservative who are quite moderate in terms of the rhetoric and they're all different points of view.
But sure, there are those sensational once out there. But it's a giant leap, Rick, to go from one talk show host to being sensational to suddenly presenting the proposition that militias are growing all across the country. And you show video of that -- I'm not blaming you.
SANCHEZ: No, I know what you're saying.
HARRISON: You see the video of that, and one would come away with the impression that this nation is on the brink of a military revolution, which I think is extreme sensationalism in itself in terms of presenting such a proposition.
In other words, I don't think the reaction to these sensationalist talk show hosts is as great as the rest of the sensational media or sensationalist politicians would have you think.
SANCHEZ: You know what, Michael, I've been wanting to have you on for some time to have this discussion, because it's been stuck in my head every day driving to work to and from. I'm glad we had this discussion. I found you to be a real honest broker on this topic. I appreciate it.
HARRISON: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: JFK traveled, Jackie got all the publicity. Remember? Guess who's in town and about to meet with President Obama? You think I'm talking about the guy on the right, President Sarkozy if France? No, it's his wife who will be getting all the pub in this case, not him. More on that ahead as it happens, by the way.
And then the strangest thing has happened in the very place where JFK was killed. A famous singer got naked there one piece of clothing at a time. This is nuts.
Oh, and wait till you see Congressman Allen Grayson when he joins me and a tea party supporter for a discussion, which gets boisterous. We'll be right back.
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SANCHEZ: And I thought we'd get you tweeting and thinking, and we have. We keep two lists, one of celebrities and politicians, athletes, et cetera, and then yours. And I read them every time we go to a commercial break.
So I want to bring a couple of those out right now. Let's start with this one. "Laughing out loud. Those complaining about hate directed at Obama need to read their own tweets regarding Bush." Goes both ways, he says.
And then this. "Working on commercial construction sites. The Rush Limbaugh listeners monopolize the radio. My tongue is solid scar tissue." An interesting way to phrase it.
My thanks to all of you who continue to write through and connect with us as we connect with you.
Take a look at this.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were the culmination of a nearly three-month campaign of verbally abusive assaultive behavior and threats of physical harm towards Phoebe.
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SANCHEZ: All right, nine Massachusetts teens -- and I want you to draw down on this with me because I want to know what you think. Nine Massachusetts teens are now facing charges for supposedly or allegedly driving a 15-year-old girl to kill herself. Can you do that? How can it be? You got to look at the facts of this case, and I will present them to you. It's a special report. That's coming up in a bit. Stay right there. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just went down and started to play some messages, and they all came out with their hands up.
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SANCHEZ: And the ninth member of the Hutaree militia is captured and sent before a judge today. They got him. Where's the hate spewing from, though? It's ahead as we consider this on THE LIST.
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