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Rick's List

Bullied to Death?; President Obama Announces New Offshore Drilling; Catholic League President Bill Donahue: Catholic Church Sexual Abuse a Problem of Homosexuality; Stocks Fall Amid Reports of Possible Weak Economic Recovery

Aired March 31, 2010 - 15:00   ET


RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Ali, can you join me here in just a little bit?


SANCHEZ: I want to know more about the conversation you just had a moments ago. Meanwhile, here's what we got coming up.


SANCHEZ (voice-over): Here's what's making THE LIST today.

WILLIAM DONAHUE, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC LEAGUE: It's harder for practicing homosexuals to get into the priesthood. And that's a very good thing.

SANCHEZ: He said it. And he takes him on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You cannot link homosexuality to a pedophilia crisis in the Catholic Church.

SANCHEZ: You will see it live.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened with her, it's persecution. I mean, this thing is a hate crime.

SANCHEZ: The story that has you talking, thousands of tweets and e-mails. Can you bully someone to death?

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Most of this game, we cannot show you.

SANCHEZ: Rape turned into a video game, lots of them. And it's not just in Japan anymore.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, we're announcing the expansion of offshore oil and gas exploration.

SANCHEZ: The president wants to drill for more oil and natural gas off the U.S. coast. We are drilling down on what it means to you.

And another alleged cheater is going to rehab. Sandra Bullock beau checks in.

The lists you need to know about. Who's today's most intriguing? Who's making news on Twitter? It's why I keep a list, pioneering tomorrow's cutting-edge news right now.


SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez.

Topping THE LIST right now -- Washington knew that the Prius- driving left wouldn't like this much. No surprise there. The president today reversed a 20-year ban on offshore drilling, but note this reaction from the right, quote, "The Obama administration continues to defy the will of the American people."

That's John Boehner, the number-one House Republican, the minority leader. Let me continue the quote. "It's long past time for this administration to stop delaying energy production off all our shores and start listening to the American people."

More on the politics in a moment.

But, first, I want to take you through the basics of precisely what it is that the president is actually doing or says he's doing. He's selling new leases off the coast of Virginia. That's a green light to start drilling -- another green light off the coast of Florida, green light for exploration out in the South Atlantic, and green light for Alaska's Cook Inlet, red light for Alaska's Bristol Bay.

Bottom line, it's not exactly drill, baby, drill. Drill, baby, drill didn't win the last election. It seems to be more like something in between, kind of a stopgap toward the day when we as a nation might be able to be free from the stranglehold of OPEC.

Here is the president.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The bottom line is this: Given our energy needs, in order to sustain economic growth, and produce jobs, and keep our businesses competitive, we're going to need to harness traditional sources of fuel, even as we ramp up production of new sources of renewable, homegrown energy.

But what I want to emphasize is that this announcement is part of a broader strategy that will move us from an economy that runs on fossil fuels and foreign oil to one that relies more on home-grown fuels and clean energy.

And the only way this transition will succeed is if it strengthens our economy in the short term and the long run. To fail to recognize this reality would be a mistake.

We have less than 2 percent of the world's oil reserves. We consume more than 20 percent of the world's oil. And what that means is that drilling alone can't come close to meeting our long-term energy needs, and for the sake of our planet and our energy independence, we need to begin the transition to cleaner fuels now.


SANCHEZ: I told you we would get to the politics, and we will.

But the question that I'm hearing is, what does this really mean for me?

My colleague Ali Velshi is here. He's going to help me through that.

And then from Washington, Ali, we're also bringing in Rayola Dougher. She's a senior economic adviser with the American Petroleum Institute.

Let's cut right to the chase, because, as much as you and I can talk about commodities and oil and gas commodities, you know what Americans want -- you know what the people watching this newscast right now want to know? OK, Mr. President, what does that mean for me? When is the price of gasoline going to go down for me?

So, Rayola, have at it.



But what we do have the answer to, what we really know that we will have is more jobs, more energy security, more revenue staying here in the United States, rather than flowing abroad. So, this is a very positive development for the American public.

SANCHEZ: Why? Can you amplify what you just said? First of all, more jobs, how are there going to be more jobs?

DOUGHER: Well, Jobs will be connected to the development of oil and natural gas resources. Our industry today supports over nine million jobs in America, and we have an opportunity, moving forward, as we open these areas for development, to bring in thousands of new jobs.

And every one job in our industry supports two or three others. So --


DOUGHER: -- I think that's very positive. We also have --

SANCHEZ: Well, yes, it is, but we could do a lot of things to create jobs. We could create jobs for stuff we don't even necessarily need.

I guess, if you're going to do something this important, as a -- as -- look, I'm not an expert on this. There's a lot of stuff I know a lot about. Oil commodities is not one of them. I want to know that we're doing this because, Ali, it's going to mean that my price of gas will go down and my country will be less apt to go to war for oil.

VELSHI: On the margins. On the margins.

I'm actually a little surprised by the whole thing, because, ultimately, the drill, baby, drill crowd didn't win. And this has not been a major issue. The reality is, we have got to bring down our consumption of oil, and we have got to increase our production of energy in whatever form you want to increase that, whether it's solar, wind, gas, oil, whatever the case is.

This is, on the margins, going to help. Bottom line is our demand for energy is increasing faster than our production of energy. And I say we, I mean the United States, I mean China, India. We -- even if you didn't -- even if you switched to alternatives and you lowered your fuel consumption in cars, you would still need more oil. So, we do need to produce more oil. This is on the margins. This is not -- I mean, after --


SANCHEZ: On the margin?

VELSHI: It is going to help a little bit.

SANCHEZ: So, why the big scream for it all this time? I'm just wondering -- you know, as an American, what I want? I want to be able to say to the Arabs, we don't need your stinking oil.

VELSHI: And this isn't going to get us there.

SANCHEZ: It's not?


SANCHEZ: I'm asking that as a question. I know, to a certain extent, it sounds cute, because it's kind of the big palaver. Everybody says that in this country.

VELSHI: Right.

SANCHEZ: But -- and let me go back to you, if I possibly could, Rayola.

Is there a possibility that this will make us less dependent on OPEC?

DOUGHER: Sure. Every barrel we can bring in will. And this is just part of the area that we have available to us to develop.

We still have a lot offshore in California. We have great natural gas resources in the eastern Gulf of Mexico. And that's not even looking forward to what we can get from development and interaction with Canada from the oil sands and the new hydraulic fracturing and the shale development that's going on in North Dakota.


DOUGHER: Wait a minute. It's fabulous.


SANCHEZ: If we busted into all of that, if we took the stuff from Alaska, the stuff from California, the stuff off the coast of Cuba, Florida, South Carolina, would we be -- just answer me, would be self-deficient -- would we be able to be self-sufficient?


DOUGHER: What we could do, what we could probably do, we could displace maybe 17 percent of what we're importing right now by -- in the next 20 years from oil sands from Canada.

We could displace another 15 percent, 17 percent just from the natural gas that we have. So, we have opportunities moving forward to transition to more natural gas, produce more oil and natural gas here, and we want to go for it.

VELSHI: Right.


DOUGHER: We think every barrel that we can produce is a barrel we don't have to import. It's a job we can have.


VELSHI: That's a fair statement. The reality is we can get oil cheaply from the oil sands. That's where the oil is right in the ground. I have been up there. You can literally squeeze it out.


VELSHI: Shale, that is very expensive. We don't produce any oil from shale. It's oil that's in a rock. It's like telling you there's oil in this computer.


VELSHI: There's a way to get it out.


SANCHEZ: It's like what the holiday doing in Montana.

VELSHI: So, oil is at 80 bucks a barrel right now. At 80 bucks a barrel, all of this sounds very interesting. But we don't really want oil to be 80 bucks a barrel. We would like it to be $30, $40. I'm sure the API would like it to be a little higher than that, but the reality is, at 80 bucks, $90, $100, this all becomes viable.

SANCHEZ: But when it comes cheap, when the oil gets cheap --


VELSHI: Oh, yes, then you don't want to be cracking stones to get oil of it. That's the bottom line. We need to consume less of it.

I think Rayola is right. Every barrel that we produce means a barrel we don't import, but in reality this still is on the margins. If you think being on the margins is important, getting every barrel you can, then it makes some sense.

SANCHEZ: OK. Well, I'm glad. I'm glad we had this conversation and I think the viewer now comes away with the idea that, you know what, we're not going to be self-sufficient.


VELSHI: No, not any time soon.

SANCHEZ: Not anytime soon, but we're moving in that direction, but let's not fool ourselves.


VELSHI: I will grow hair and you will be bald by the time we're self-sufficient.


SANCHEZ: Ali Velshi.

And Rayola, thanks so much, Ms. Dougher, for being with us. We appreciate it.

DOUGHER: Thank you. Thanks.

SANCHEZ: Are tea parties becoming more diverse? Ed Lavandera drills down on that story. That's next.


DONAHUE: Most of the molesters have been homosexuals in the Catholic Church.


SANCHEZ: Bill Donahue with the Catholic League says the problem within the church isn't so much pedophilia. He says it's homosexuality. And he's going to join me live here in just a little bit.

Stay with us. This does get interesting.

My thanks to you, Mr. Velshi.

VELSHI: Pleasure.


CALLER: Hey, Rick. This is Mike from Arkansas.

These kids that bullied these other kids and don't have respect for their teachers and other people, they should be held responsible, but, listen, the parents should be held responsible also. These kids were all babies once, and it's our responsibility to bring them up. Thank you, Rick.



SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.

We want to ask the questions that you are asking us to ask. And when it comes to the Tea Party and our extensive coverage of them as a phenomenon, as a national phenomenon lately, there are subjects that tend to pop up more than most.

Is the Tea Party for white folks only, some people would say. Tea Party Express is on the move this week, so we have been following them. Remember, their goal is to arrive in Washington, D.C., April 15. Some of the critics of the Tea Party's movement say it only appeals to white people.

And some of the scans that you have seen on video of the Tea Party crowds would tend to support that. Let's call it what it is. There aren't that many Latinos. There aren't that many blacks. There aren't that many Native Americans.

So, what we want to do is have our correspondent, Ed Lavandera, go out and ask the questions that you have asked of us of the people who are members of the Tea Party. What do they say?

And that's exactly what he does in this report.


ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hip-hop rhymes with a Tea Party flair.


LAVANDERA: Lloyd Marcus fires up the crowd.

LLOYD MARCUS, TEA PARTY MEMBER: I am not an African-American. I am Lloyd Marcus, American!

LAVANDERA: Subtle efforts to make the Tea Party appear diverse. But wherever the Tea Party Express goes, Lloyd Marcus will be one of the few minorities in the crowd. That doesn't bother him. He feels at home with his Tea Party brothers. MARCUS: I think that there's not a lot of black folks here basically because they haven't seen the light yet. They are still hypnotized by the first black or African-American president. But they haven't really looked at the man and what he's doing.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Critics argue there's an anti-minority undertone to these rallies. One anti-Tea Party protester lashed out at a campaigning candidate about the issue.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Other than the people that are covering the story here, the only people I see are retired white people.

LAVANDERA: At the Tea Party Express kickoff rally, one woman carried a sign with a stuffed monkey that read, "Send Obama back to Kenya." Tea Party activists signs also rail against immigration reform with a tone that could offend Latinos. Tea Party activists though, say, attempts to portray the group as racist or not open to welcoming minorities is a biased, unfair attack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't believe the crock you're reading in some media about racism. I don't see the lack of diversity at all.

LAVANDERA: Tea Party chairman Mark Williams argues the movement is incredibly diverse and says there are no specific efforts to reach out to minorities.

(on camera): So there's no sense that you maybe need to go out and target black people, Hispanic people, to bring them into the fold.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All they need to do is read the constitution and they'll come find us.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): The Tea Party Express cross-country tour moves into Colorado on Wednesday with rallies in Grand Junction and Denver.

Ed Lavandera, CNN, Salt Lake City, Utah.



LAH: It didn't take long to find a game where the object is revenge. Find and rape the woman who fired the player from his imaginary job.


SANCHEZ: Rape is now a video game. You heard me right. Rape is now a video game. And it's not just in one corner of the world. Could be in your neighborhood. I'm going to show it to you.

Also, President Obama unveils plans to drill for oil and gas off the U.S. coast. Is that a ka-ching for you and for him politically?

Drilling down on Yellin's list, that is next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: What are people relevant in the news saying? Let's go to that right now, both on the left and on the right.

We are going to start with Representative Tom Price: "Obama's offshore drilling plan is a baby step in the right direction, but it's light years away from an all-you-can-create energy policy." All right, that's a Republican.

Now let's hear from a Democrat from New Jersey. That's Frank Pallone. "Offshore drilling," he tweets, "on the Atlantic Coast invites an environmental catastrophe that would have severe economic consequences for New Jersey."

Two perspectives, we're glad we can bring them to you. That's why we call it THE LIST.

Now time for Yellin's list. We turn now to award-winning national correspondent Jessica Yellin. I love saying that.



SANCHEZ: You ain't lying if it's true. Or what do they say? It ain't bragging if it's true, right?

YELLIN: I like that. Thanks.

SANCHEZ: All right, we talked about the president -- we talked about the president reversing this ban on offshore drilling. I have lost count, obviously, how many times is it now that the president's told the left wing of his party to take a hike.

I mean, the guy is essentially -- even though he's described in many ways as a leftist president, when you really look at his policies, not just on this, but on other policies --

YELLIN: Right.

SANCHEZ: -- is he really?

YELLIN: No, it's his critics who describe him as a lefty president, but many in the progressive movement disagree.

Look, let's -- this is a move that's a break with some of the core principles of the environmental movement and the left. A lot of people in the progressive community are disillusioned today and dismayed that the president has issued such a broad approach to drilling.

But, you know, this is another instance, Rick, where people should have listened to what the candidate Obama said, instead of projecting their idea of him onto him, because, on the campaign trail, the president, he did talk about opening new areas to drilling. He did say that, as president, he would look at this. He just promised it would be part of a broader environmental policy.

And that's what he's delivering now. So, it's not what the left might want, but it is what he said he would give them.

SANCHEZ: Well, but isn't there also -- I will give you another example, his decision --


SANCHEZ: -- about nuclear energy, and --

YELLIN: Right.

SANCHEZ: -- giving leases and government permits for more nuclear plants in the United States. Some would argue, somebody like Dick Morris, for example, who wrote extensively about this theory of triangulation --

YELLIN: Right.

SANCHEZ: -- what you do is, you get in office and you go to the center. If you're a righty, you go to the left. If you're a lefty, you go to the center. And you start co-opting some of your opposition's ideas and that is what makes you a successful president, so said Dick Morris about Bill Clinton when he did that with welfare reform, for example.

So, here's the question. I'm sorry it's such a long one. Is Barack Obama triangulating here? Is he co-opting some of the ideas from the right?

YELLIN: OK, it would look like it on the surface, but what the White House would say here is that it's -- it's what someone there has described as principled post-partisanship. That's what some of Obama's folks believe he is committed to. And that's the idea that --

SANCHEZ: Say that again. Say --

YELLIN: Principled post-partisanship.

SANCHEZ: Principled post-partisanship.

YELLIN: So, let me explain.

Unlike the idea of triangulation, where Bill Clinton would just wholesale take the ideas of the Republican Party and then present them as his own, how are they going to object to that, and then he has a series of successes, that President Obama instead every so often will pick and choose particular issues where he actually agrees with the conservatives and makes them part of his policy as part of a pragmatic approach.

So, it's not strategic and political, in their view. It's just pragmatic. SANCHEZ: Hmm.

YELLIN: And so you will also see him be very left on other issues, so he's not trending to the right. It's just on certain issues he's adopting views that the right holds.

The big problem for him is that it hasn't always led to a success in Congress. So, liberals say, well, he's giving the conservatives what they want and they won't give him their votes, so what's the point?

SANCHEZ: That's interesting.

YELLIN: They say it's pragmatism. Yes.

SANCHEZ: And one more, tell me what the term is, because I'm going to use this from now, you know.


YELLIN: Principled post-partisanship. I'm not sure that's a direct quote. That's what I got to with them. That's where -- principled post-partisanship.

SANCHEZ: I'm glad we got you making the phone calls, because I wouldn't have been able to spell it.


SANCHEZ: Jessica Yellin on Yellin's list, thanks so much. We appreciate the segment.

YELLIN: Good to see you.

SANCHEZ: Can you bully someone to death? I will tell you, here's maybe another question in this story that you have been asking me about. So, I will ask in general. Are schools responsible for the bullying problem? Or is it the bully? We're going to drill down on what you can and cannot do to alleviate this problem, maybe even with your own kids, because everybody's interested in this story, it seems, today. That's ahead.

Also, who's the most intriguing person in the news today? Here's a hint: He's defending his supervisor and also admitting mistakes have been made. Who is this guy? That's next.


SANCHEZ: Time to check the list of the most intriguing person in the news today.

He is a Catholic priest, but he's much more than that. He's an archbishop who stood in his pulpit last night apologetic, talking about the sex abuse scandal that has reached every level of church leadership. He begged the forgiveness of his congregation for the way that his diocese handled the case of a priest believed to have molested up to 200 boys.

But he also said that the pope is not to blame, his words -- quote -- "The Holy Father does not need me to defend him or his decisions. I believe that his actions in responding to this crisis swiftly and decisively and his compassionate response to victims speak for themselves."

He is sticking up for the pope. Let's tell you who he is. His name is Jerome Listecki, archbishop of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where alleged sexual abuses committed by a now deceased priest were kept quiet for years. He is a part of the conversation. His apologies don't sit well with some victims, some of whom want the pope to resign. Archbishop Jerome Listecki is today among the most intriguing people in the news.


DONAHUE: Most of the molesters have been homosexuals in the Catholic Church.


SANCHEZ: Is homosexuality the real problem within the Catholic Church? Who would be outlandish enough to say that? Bill Donahue, that's who. He's going to join me and amplify his thought process in just a little bit. And he won't do it alone.

Also, talk about a real cliffhanger. Wow. The picture tells the story. It's next.

Hey, you want to be on the show, by the way? You can. You can join us right here, have you on the set, just behind the cameras, or sometimes in front of it. Call this number if you would like to, 877- 4CNN-TOUR, 877-4CNN-TOUR.


SANCHEZ: Who doesn't like a good cliffhanger, right? But cliffhanger is really just a figure of speech. Not in this case. Let's go "Fotos."

If you lived in a place that was called Wash-away beach, would it surprise you if homes did, indeed, wash away? That's just what's happening as the Pacific Ocean devours this home in Washington State. First it swallowed the shed, then the septic tank, then the backyard, finally the deck.

The entire house will soon be in the Pacific Ocean. Land in the area has been eroding for many, many years. Wow.

Water, water, everywhere, more mischief from Mother Nature. It's old Mystic, Connecticut, like the movie, but there's nothing mystical about rushing water. Best advice -- avoid walking through strong currents, if you can.

Here's what's not to do, by the way, when you get pulled over by a police officer. Police officers in China, reporters are covering this in a city campaign to crack down on people driving without a license. A reporter asked the woman if she thought she was giving the city a bad image for doing that.

Then the driver goes all get out of my face. Watch.




SANCHEZ: Translation -- you know what you can do with that microphone. Ladies, all right, where's the civility here? Please relax. After all, you're on "Fotos del Dia."


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jealousy, probably. I would imagine that they are all jealous of her, because she got lots of attention from people, positive attention.


SANCHEZ: What you need to know about bullying, now that the topic has exploded as a part of our national conversation -- e-mails, tweets, everywhere. What's your role as a parent, and what's the school's role? That's what we're drilling down on. It's ahead.

Also, priests who sexually abuse children are homosexuals, not pedophiles. That is what Bill Donohue said in a letter to "The New York Times," and that's also what he suggested last night when he was on "LARRY KING," so we've invited Bill back so we can have a conversation about this. And I'm looking forward to it. Bill, glad you're here. Good to see you.

BILL DONAHUE, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC LEAGUE: Thank you so much, Rick. Thank you.

SANCHEZ: All right, we'll be right back.


SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.

Is the sex abuse crisis in the Catholic Church really about homosexuality and not pedophilia? The president of the Catholic League thinks so. He's part of an ad -- here now is part of an ad that Bill Donohue's group placed. It was in the "New York Times" yesterday.

It caught my eye as I was coming back to Atlanta to do this show. "The Times" continues to editorialize about the pedophilia crisis when all along it's been a homosexual crisis -- quote, "80 percent of the victims of priestly sexual abuse are male, and most of them are post- pubescent. While homosexuality does not cause predatory behavior and most gay priests are not molesters, most of the molesters have been gay."

I apologize for my cold.

Now, listen to this, because Bill Donohue and Thomas Roberts, who used to be an anchor at our sister network HLN and has revealed he was sexually abused as a child -- this is a very personal thing for Thomas -- were talking about the exact thing on "LARRY KING LIVE" last night. Take a listen.


DONAHUE: It's harder for practicing homosexuals to get into the priesthood, and that's a very good thing.

THOMAS ROBERTS: You cannot link homosexuality to a pedophilia crisis in the Catholic Church.


SANCHEZ: OK, here we go. Joining me now is Bill Donohue, Catholic League president. Bill and I have been together to have these discussions about everything about the Catholic Church many times. And also joining us is Michael Bayly with the Catholic Pastoral Committee on Sexual Minorities. My thanks to both of you gentlemen for being with us today.

DONAHUE: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: This is a very brazen discussion to have. And I'm glad that both of you are here. We'll try and be as respectful as we possibly can, but we know when these types of conversations are had all over the country, in people's living rooms, family discussions, things can get a little heated.

So we'll try and keep it, you know, as low key as we can without breaking what is natural in all of us, to talk about something passionately. So, Bill, let me let you begin. What did you mean when you wrote that letter, that ad, that you placed in "The New York Times"? Go ahead and amplify that for us.

DONAHUE: In 2004, John Jay College of criminal justice in New York City completed its study of this abusive question in the Catholic Church, studying priests between 1950 and 2002.

What they found at that time -- and it was reported by Robert Bennett, the famous lawyer, the brother of Bill Bennett, who was at the time the head of the National Review board looking in to this question, was that 81 percent of all the victims have been male and that 75 percent -- I understated the problem last night. I'm sorry I did that -- 75 percent, three out of every four, of these victims are post-pubescent, meaning that it's homosexuality driven.

It is simply, flatly wrong. It's not a matter of my opinion to say that this is a pedophilia crisis. It's been a homosexual crisis all along. We need to talk honestly.

SANCHEZ: Well, let me just stop you right there, because immediately as you say that, there are people watching this show, and I can hear them saying this, Bill Donohue, shame on you. Are you saying all gays are pedophiles?

DONAHUE: As I said in the ad, which I wrote, most gay priests are not molesters, but most of the molesters have been gay. And I also said, that there's no such thing as a -- that homosexuality does not cause predatory behavior.

Let me give you a quick example. I'm Irish. Everybody who has half a brain knows that the Irish have a bigger problem with alcoholism than the Italians or the Chinese, for example. Does that mean because you're an Irishman, therefore, you are driven to become an alcoholic? Of course, not.

What it means, though, if your group is overrepresented in a particular problem area, you ought to explore it. Yes, there's a connection between Irish and alcoholism, and, yes, there's a connection between homosexuality and sexual abuse of minors.

SANCHEZ: So, I suppose what you're saying is there's a difference between an educated generalization and a hasty generalization. That's almost what I hear you saying.

DONAHUE: There's a difference between a cause and effect and somebody saying if there's an overrepresentation. I know that, for example, the Chinese smoke more than the Irish do. If you're Chinese it doesn't make you a smoker, but there's a connection there. There's a cultural link you need to explore it.

SANCHEZ: This is a heck of a thing to be talking about on a national newscast, but it's interesting. Go ahead.

DONAHUE: My doctorate is in sociology from New York University. I'm not unacquainted with how to read the social science data. If people have a problem with what I'm said, it's not with me. Tell it to the John Jay College of criminal justice.

SANCHEZ: I've given you ample time to explain your viewpoint. I want to bring Michael in, because essentially what the letter said, at lease the thesis in general of what he was saying on that seventh item in his letter was the real problem in the Catholic church is homosexuality, not so much the other. And, Michael, I'd like you to respond to that.

MICHAEL BAYLY, CATHOLIC PASTORAL COMMITTEE ON SEXUAL MINORITIES: Thanks for having me on the show, rick, and hello to Bill there, too. Yes, I read Bill's piece in "The New York Times," and I guess I had two sort of issues with it. And one of them was, of course, the scapegoating of gay men and the confusion of homosexuality with pedophilia. That was sort of confusing.

SANCHEZ: How would you disagree with what he just said? He tried to be very clear to say that not all homosexuals are pedophiles. What bill seems to be saying -- and, Bill, I don't want to speak for you -- was the statistics show that many of the priests who are gay have acted as pedophiles files.

DONAHUE: That's right.

BAYLY: Well, um, if that's true, you have to ask why is it the case in the Roman Catholic Church that that's happened? And I think if it is an overrepresentation, it seems to be only happening in the Roman Catholic Church.

I think, therefore, we have to look at what is it about the Roman Catholic Church and its understanding and teaching on homosexuality that stirs men in the priesthood, gay and straight, into this sort of psychosexual-centered thing.

SANCHEZ: So, if there's a -- you're saying if there's a sexual deviancy problem, it's the church's fault for causing that, for bringing that about in the men who become priests? Is that what I hear you saying, Mike?

BAYLY: Well, what I'm saying we are all obviously responsible for our own behavior. But I think the structure of the church, its way of thinking and talking about human sexuality are very dysfunctional. And I think --

SANCHEZ: Let me just -- Bill, I know you've got a lot to say there. I'm going to give you both an opportunity to come back. I'm told I got to get a break in.

And you know I'm going to ask this question of you, Bill. I'm going to ask this question, and I'm thinking about it now, so I'm just going to go ahead and say it, and then we'll talk about it on the other side.

Does it have more to do with the fact that Catholic Church keeps men from doing something that is perfectly natural? Just think about it. This whole idea that priests can't get married. Isn't that the bigger problem than the homosexuality problem? Does it trump it?

Stay right there. We'll talk about this. The real -- I guess the truth about what's going on in Catholic Church is what we're talking about. Stay right there, we'll be right back.


SANCHEZ: Bill Donohue is with the Catholic League. He says one of the real problems with the Catholic Church right now is not so much pedophilia as homosexuality. And Michael Bayly is with the Catholic Pastoral Committee on Sexual Minorities.

Michael, we're down to only three minutes, so let me let you start first. Again, how would you refute Bill's statement that homosexuality has become a problem in the Catholic Church. What would you say to him? Say it. BAYLY: I think the leading experts on the church's sexual abuse scandal, he himself said there's not one scientific justification to conclude that there's a connection between orientation and sexual abuse of minors. So, I think that says a lot from a guy of high caliber.

SANCHEZ: Bill, did you hear what he said?

DONAHUE: I'll just say one more time the John Jay study showed that 75 percent of the victims were post-pubescent, meaning done by homosexuals.

And you brought it up at the end of the last session, you brought it up, Rick, and it's a good point. I heard from the last couple of weeks all I've heard from Bill Maher and other people have been speaking about it, if the Catholic Church would get rid of celibacy, they wouldn't have this problem.

What they are saying is if you got rid of celibacy, the priesthood wouldn't be so attractive to homosexuals, therefore you wouldn't have the molestation problem. I agree with that. They are unwittingly making my point. Obviously if you got rid of celibacy, it wouldn't do anything with pedophilia, because the pedophile wants the little kid!

SANCHEZ: Let's educate our viewers. I've done research on this. We go back to the Council of Trent and the Second Lateran Council officially imposed mandatory celibacy on priests.

I guess my general point is, I've been reading all this papal dicta, is that there was a time when priests were allowed to get married, and some would argue the reason they were stopped from getting married was because the church had a fiduciary responsibility here. They wanted to be able to keep the estate and they didn't want to be hanging on to all the other people, sons, wives, daughters, and all that other stuff.

First of all, is there some truth to that?

DONAHUE: That's been a contention that's never been proved. It's a historical anomaly.

All I'm simply saying if in fact people say get rid of celibacy and you won't have the problem, all they are really saying is -- and these are my critics saying it -- the predicate is that homosexuals are the problem, so if you get rid of it, you won't have the homosexual.

SANCHEZ: Forget the homosexual as this point, you are a conservative guy, you look at your own church. You're a Catholic, and so am I. Do we -- do we look at this church and say, do you know what, maybe it's time you really took a look at this celibacy issue?

DONAHUE: Absolutely. Cardinal Eagan before he left as the archbishop of New York said put it on the table. It was mandatory, as you correctly said -- in the second and last 1,000 years. The first 1,000 it was more optional and considered to be the norm. It's not a doctrine like the trinity. Of course, they can get rid of it tomorrow. Maybe they should.

SANCHEZ: Interesting. Michael, you agree?

BAYLY: I think mandatory celibacy should be gotten rid of, yes. I want to tell one other thing.

SANCHEZ: Please.

BAYLY: The John Jay study had a cutoff of 18 years of age, people they got research from. If they had expanded that and included women who had been abused by priests, I think we'd see it's not a homosexual problem at all, but it's actually a heterosexual problem.

DONAHUE: They've done that in the last couple of years. It's always 80 percent. They can't keep their hands off the boys, don't you get it?

SANCHEZ: We will stop there. My thanks to you, Michael. And my thanks to you, Bill, as well. And I'm glad we had a chance to have this transparent conversation. We appreciate both of you. We'll get you back.

BAYLY: Thanks so much. Bye-bye.

DONAHUE: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Roland Martin is going to be here in a little bit. He's fired up on some things as well. This is a fired-up show. And you can always tell when my upper lip sweats, and because of my cold, I can't pronounce half the words I say.

The president is drilling for oil, and Roland has a lot to say about this, about the oil drilling and the president. He'll be doing his own drilling on "R&R" when we come back.


SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. It is time for -- interesting. I'm getting e-mails and tweets from people, and I wish I could find some of them now, but now they're all talking about Bill Donohue.

But what they're saying, Roland, and I'll have to tell you what I'm reading is, wait a minute. This is the president that was promising green jobs. Here it is. Take this one right here, if you would, Robert. "President Obama drilling for oil ??!! Whatever happened to green jobs?"

Roland, they're wondering if the president is actually doing an about-face here. What's your take?

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Obviously, environmentalists are not at all happy with this decision to drill along the Atlantic coast as well as the Gulf coast. But what's interesting is what is missing. You don't see any announcement as it relates to drilling along the west coast, primarily because largely liberal base. The president won California, Washington and organ state. I think they probably knew they would face a stern opposition drilling off of the west coast.

Now, I've been getting e-mails. Congressman Bobby Scott of Virginia and other Democrats along the eastern corridor who are saying, wait a minute. Our environmental coasts are just as important as they are on the west coast.

SANCHEZ: You know what you're saying?


SANCHEZ: You're saying that the president of the United States is essentially saying to the south, you don't vote for me, you don't like me, you're where all those tea parties come from --


SANCHEZ: -- I'm going to drill off your coast but not the places where they voted for me. Are you saying that?

MARTIN: No, I'm not saying that. First of all, I think what you've seen is you've seen Republicans who have been calling for increased drilling in these areas. The White House will respond by saying, wait a minute. We're simply saying you already have leases. Either you drill on the land or you simply give the land back.

Politics has to play a role here. Remember, the president is trying to have a much larger energy plan, facing stern opposition from Republicans.

I don't necessarily believe, though, that this move announced today is going to actually generate significant Republican votes, because you know what they're going to say? Hey, we want to see drilling on the west coast, we want to see drilling in Alaska. We want to see more, more, more. So I don't think this is going to satisfy the folks who wanted to increase drilling in different parts of the United States.

SANCHEZ: We know that. We're already getting that. As a matter of fact, I'm already looking at tweets that we've been following here today as we try to get a sense for what the mood is from the politicians. The right is saying you're not going far enough. And the left is saying, hold on here, what happened to the environmentalist president?

MARTIN: And I think it is important, because it's very difficult when you say during the campaign that we must wean ourselves from this addiction to oil. In fact, it was actually president George W. Bush who used that word "addiction" when it comes to oil.

And so this is the president who has been talking about alternative sources of energy. And so why necessarily make this type of announcement when you were touting green jobs, you were talking about solar panels, talking about wind turbines? You have T. Boone Pickens who has been pushing for the use of natural gas, talking about wind farms.

SANCHEZ: But this president always talks about doing things because they're right, not because they're politically expedient. Is he making this decision --


-- no, I'm going to put you on the spot here.

MARTIN: Politician?

SANCHEZ: Is it political expediency or the right thing to do for the American people? Which one is he leaning toward this time?

MARTIN: Frankly if I had to put a number on it, I would probably say it's 70-30, or 80-20 politics.

SANCHEZ: Political expediency. Thank you, Roland.

MARTIN: I think so.

SANCHEZ: And I appreciate your candor, and so do most viewers, and that's why we have you on. Thanks, friend.

CNN money list -- just in time for the closing bell. Now with Poppy Harlow, she is standing by. Poppy, give me a wave.


SANCHEZ: All right, we'll be right back.