Return to Transcripts main page
Rick's List
West Virginia Mine Explosion Kills Dozens; New U.S. Nuke Policy?; Michael Steele Under Fire; Death From Above in Baghdad; Relationship Between U.S. and Afghan President
Aired April 06, 2010 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Threats against a U.S. senator lead to an arrest. Yet another repercussion from passage of health care reform? That story unfolding this hour.
Also, there's this --
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES (voice-over): Here's what's making THE LIST.
As the mourning begins, so do the questions.
MICHELLE, BENNY WILLINGHAM'S DAUGHTER: We want some answers. We don't know where my dad's body's at.
HOLMES: How did this happen? Why now? And what is the culture of coal country?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no love like the love among workers in coal mining.
HOLMES: When tragedy strikes, yes, we all pay attention, but who is minding the mines when the national spotlight turns away?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roger. I would estimate there's about 20 of them.
HOLMES: Hovering over Iraq, pilots engage, taking out insurgents and innocents. Dramatic scenes reveal the fog of war. Retired General Mark Kimmitt joins us for a look at the rules of engagement.
KARI WATKINS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, OKLAHOMA CITY MEMORIAL: I could just state this blank stare.
HOLMES: A bloody chapter in America's recent history.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These kids were 1 or 2 years old when this happened.
HOLMES: Why aren't students learning about the terror that took place in their own backyard?
And then the president announces a major shift in U.S. policy -- or is it? When would America deploy its nukes? We will drill down on what today's announcement means.
Plus, the lists you need to know about. Who is most intriguing. What is the news on Twitter? It's why Rick keeps a list. Your national conversation starts right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: And good afternoon, everybody. I'm T.J. Holmes, sitting in today for Rick here on RICK'S LIST.
We're following the story out of West Virginia, still a fast- moving and developing story, and a heartbreaking one as well. We know that 25 miners have been killed, another four still unaccounted for. One of those who was killed, we know of, confirmed dead is Benny Willingham, a 30-year veteran of the mines who was five weeks away from retiring.
He planned to take his wife on their first cruise next month. He survived some 30 years of working in the mines, and then only a month before retirement dies in an accident.
We're also hearing from the sister of another victim. She's talking about her brother. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANNIE, BENNY WILLINGHAM'S SISTER: He said -- in church the other day, he said, the lord -- he thanked the lord for saving his soul, and he thanked him for watching over him in the mines for over 30 years. And he said, if he takes me tomorrow, I have had a good life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: We are going to be hearing many more stories about the 25 miners who are now confirmed dead.
Right now, a lot of the focus is on four miners who are still missing. People are holding out hope, any little glimmer they can hold on to that maybe those four made it to some kind of safety and they are just hunkering down and waiting to be rescued. Our Brooke Baldwin is in Marsh Fork, West Virginia.
And how much -- can you put that in perspective, just how much hope they're holding out that maybe those four could be OK?
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think there's certainly hope, T.J., but it is smaller and smaller perhaps by the hour.
Really, the big question the families have, we, members of the media, have, and, of course, these mining officials here at the Upper Big Branch mine is, when will the drilling begin?
Just to reset the story for you, again, we're 30 miles south of Charleston, massive media presence. And we're guessing we will be here at least for the next couple of days. We have mentioned the fact that we're -- we're being told by state mine officials here in West Virginia that the process of drilling way up far against this mountain -- this is the mine -- this is part of the mine property -- that will take two days.
We have just heard that they will be holding a press conference inside this teeny, tiny elementary school at 5:00 Eastern. And that is when we should find out definitively when that drilling will begin.
They have already done the bulldozing. We need to find out about the drilling. And the drilling is important for several reasons, one, because from what CNN is hearing from one of the drill operators, they're going to take this massive 1,000-bit drill, and the goal is to drill several of these teeny, tiny holes.
What they will be able to do, once they start drilling the holes (AUDIO GAP) they will be able to hear signs of life. They say that -- this drill operator says, if -- if some of the miners, if they're alive, if they're down there, they could tap on this drill bit, and they could actually hear the tapping.
They could also take tiny microphones and place them inside one of the small holes and hear if there's any sort of sign of life. But the second reason, T.J., they're drilling these holes is, quite simply, for ventilation.
When you think about some of the poisonous gases, methane, the coal dust, carbon monoxide, that is fueling all around in there, for the sake of the rescue crews, not just the miners, they have to ventilate to diffuse some of those toxic fumes before they even attempt to go back into the mine and save these guys.
Point two I want to make -- and you and I were sort of talking about this last hour -- you were asking me about the relationship, you remember, between this town here and Massey Energy, the owner of this and 43 other surface and underground coal mines.
And it seems, as it's developed in the last 24 hours, that it could be a relationship of animosity right now, because you heard the sound bite. A lot of family members are very upset with Don Blankenship, who is the CEO, saying, why aren't you telling us more information? This is more about profit and not our people.
But, sort of anecdotally, when we were driving into town, my producer and I stopped at a gas station. And we just so happened to run into a woman, again, tight-knit community, everyone sort of touched by this story. And she said to me that she had lost her husband seven months ago in a mine, not this particular mine, but another mine in the area.
And she, through tears, her eyes were welling, and said -- she was very defensive of Massey Energy and she said they were very good to her, T.J., when she lost her husband, and they will certainly be good to these families.
But, again, we're still waiting, and everyone here holding out hope that these four men will survive. HOLMES: Everyone is holding out hope for those four. We have seen miracles before. People holding out hope for another one.
Brooke, thank you. We will certainly continue to check in with you.
BALDWIN: Sure.
HOLMES: This is the Upper Big Branch South mine -- that's the name of it -- that's owned by Massey, has a long record of safety violations. Take a look. First-quarter inspection found 103 violations, a million dollars in proposed penalties last year.
More than 50 major violations in 2009, including citations for minor escape routes and ventilation.
Ellen Smith is owner and managing editor of "Mine Safety and Health News," joins us now.
Ma'am, thank you for being here.
When you heard the name Upper Big Branch South mine, and there had been an issue, did you think, oh, wait, not that mine, or did you think, oh, that mine?
ELLEN SMITH, MANAGING EDITOR, "MINE SAFETY AND HEALTH NEWS": No, I had to look it up.
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: I had no idea, you know, what mine it is.
There's, you know, thousands of mines in this country, coal and metal, non-metal mines. And, you know, we don't know all of them. But MSHA's system makes it easy to -- to look up information on these mines.
And, you know, I -- but I was concerned about what I saw and the fact that this mine has had some elevated enforcement actions in the last year.
HOLMES: Now, tell us -- give us an idea, because a lot of us, I mean, we don't follow this, don't keep up with these particular violations. But you hear 103 violations, it sounds like a lot. You hear a million dollars in proposed fines, sounds like a lot.
So, if you can, help us put that number of violations and put that amount of possible fines in perspective.
SMITH: Well, you know, first of all, these are proposed penalties. And the company has a right, and they will go before the Federal Mine Safety and Health Review Commission, and a lot of these penalties are being challenged.
So, you are probably not going to see that amount stay. The amounts will most likely be lowered on the majority of these violations. The other issue is, they're alleged. They're alleged penalties. The company is going to have time before a judge or to discuss with MSHA a settlement on a lot of these violations.
HOLMES: And is it a high number, the 103? And can you kind of quantify some of those --
SMITH: Well, actually --
HOLMES: -- some worse than the others?
SMITH: Actually, yes. Well, what we saw last year, 2009, was 458 citations at this mine.
But it's -- it's not those citations that bother me, as much as the 48 what we call 104(d)(2) orders. These are unwarrantable failure-to-comply --
HOLMES: Yes.
SMITH: -- citations. That bothers me more than the raw number of 458, because 458 could be, you know, that they had inadequate toilet facilities or --
HOLMES: OK.
SMITH: -- a garbage pail lid was left off. We don't know exactly what those citations were for.
However, there are citations that sort of draw red flags, the ventilation citations. Escape ways, they didn't have them marked with reflective tape. Some of the others are combustible materials. They have gotten a bunch of citations for those.
Those are a little more serious. And -- and, yes, they -- they're a concern.
HOLMES: Now, those unwarrantable failures, those you're talking about, those 48, are those something that are uncommon, and once you get to one of those, are you really in pretty deep trouble?
SMITH: You know, that amount is -- is cause for concern.
When you look at other mines with the same amount or even more miners underground, a mine with 200 miners underground, a mine with 600 miners, 500 underground, I mean, one mine that we looked at for comparison purposes had two unwarrantable failure violations last year, but it had 500 miners underground.
It was working a lot of hours. Another mine we looked at was a West Virginia mine, and I think they had six unwarrantable failure violations in one year, where this particular mine, not Massey in general, but this particular mine had six unwarrantable failures since January. So, that does raise a red flag.
HOLMES: All right. Ellen Smith, we appreciate the perspective, again managing editor of "Mine Safety and Health News." We appreciate you helping us on this story.
SMITH: Thank you.
HOLMES: Thank you so much.
And we will continue to follow up with you as we investigate this story. Thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I state your element. You have got, oh, about four Humvees --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're clear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, firing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: So, a U.S. Apache opens fire on what was thought to be a group of Iraqi insurgents. It turns out two the casualties were journalists. This video has just now come to light. We will be showing this to you and get perspective from a retired brigadier general. That's just ahead.
Also, from the follow-up list: a court hearing for three teenagers accused of bullying a classmate so severely, she killed herself.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: Well, a story we just got in a short time ago: An arrest has been made of a man who is accused of threatening that woman, Senator Patty Murray, Democrat of Washington.
And, according to authorities, this had to do with threats she got after her health care vote. You all will remember that certainly a lot of members of Congress were saying that they got all kinds of threatening phone calls, letters in the mail, and so on and so forth, but apparently authorities think this one went too far.
And in particular this man -- Charles Alan Wilson is his name, 64 years old -- has now been arrested and charged by criminal complaint with threatening a federal official. Apparently, he was calling her office, saying things like she -- quote -- "had a target on her back" and also saying -- quote -- "I want to 'blank' kill you."
So, now this man has been charged. And, again, this is connection, according to authorities, at least, with her health care vote. Police say the man did have -- Wilson had a .38-caliber revolver registered to him and a permit to carry a concealed weapon, but he's now been arrested. We're going to get now to a list of new developments in stories we have been telling you about. There was a court hearing today in Massachusetts on a bullying case where a 15-year-old girl took her own life. Three of her classmates entered not-guilty pleas today in Northampton, Massachusetts. They were not required to appear in the courtroom. Their lawyers entered those pleas for them.
The judge will allow them to remain free, but ordered them to stay away from the victim's family. Prosecutors say Phoebe Prince committed suicide after what they called unrelenting bullying at school. Nine teenagers in all are facing charges.
Well, we know now who Tiger Woods will be playing with this week as he begins his Master comeback. He's going to be competing with one name you will at least know, K.J. Choi, who has certainly made some headlines out there in his own right out there on the PGA Tour. But they're going to be teeing off Thursday at 1:42 Eastern time and then on Friday at 10:35 Eastern time.
Well, we got a tweet to show you here. This has got a lot of people talking once again. And let me show you the tweet. Let's go ahead and show it over here. This is from Augusta National's Twitter profile.
And like you see, it says, "Tiger's cell phone use questioned."
Now, you click on that link, and it takes you to these pictures. This man, the rest of his life, any time he's using a cell phone, people are going to start talking. Now, the story is circulating on social media. They are interpreting this as a violation of the rules. You're not supposed to, apparently, have a cell phone out there. At least Augusta National, even during the -- the practice rounds, don't want you out there with your cell phone.
He was taking a picture at one point, it appeared. Then he's standing there with Mark O'Meara as well. But, again, Tiger cell phone, not a good idea.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT GATES, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Given al Qaeda's continued quest for nuclear weapons, Iran's ongoing nuclear efforts, and North Korea's proliferation, this focus is appropriate, and, indeed, essential, an essential change from previous reviews.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Well, the nuclear landscape changes dramatically today, with the U.S. announcing a new plan for using, or is it not using, its arsenal. We're drilling this down just ahead.
Also, the heads rolling at the RNC, but what about his? Michael Steele, his chief of staff has resigned, at least. And that could just be the start of a shakeup. Guest which list Steele is making today? You can probably guess.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: All right, on to another list now.
Love him or hate him, Michael Steele probably wishes a lot of people would stop talking about him right now and just let him do his job and get Republicans elected. There's a problem, though. Some high-ranking members of his own party can't stop talking about him either.
That's why he's atop of the list you do not want to be on today. First, of course, it was the big tab for a bunch of young fund-raisers to hang out at a sex club, a bondage-themed club, we're told, in Hollywood, even though he wasn't along for that.
We later learned Steele has been dropping some pretty hefty cash off himself, five-star hotels, limos, swanky meals. Steele just wrote a letter to 168 of his party's faithful, letting them know the buck stops with him. He reassured them that he's the right man to lead the party. And he's apparently cracking heads.
His chief of staff at party headquarters has been forced to resign. Steele has, of course, been on this very show, told Rick Sanchez that, when you're in his position, you have got to spend money to make money for the party. Add all that up and the news has even prompted his outspoken colleague Newt Gingrich to say everybody just needs to lay off and let Steele get his party through the midterm election season.
So, again, love him or hate him, everybody's talking about him, and not necessarily for all the right and flattering reasons. And that's why Michael Steele, chair of the RNC, is on the list you do not want to be on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My grandfathers both worked in the mines, uncles. I have been in the mines myself. I work in the industry, not underground, but I do go underground on occasion. It's just -- coal mining gets in your blood. And the camaraderie, it's -- it's like a sports team. I mean, it's just -- it's just -- there's no love like the love among -- among workers in coal mines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Well, just about everyone in that coal mining town touched by this tragic explosion. We will go back to West Virginia for the latest on this investigation. That's just ahead.
Also, the White House issuing new guidelines for when it will use a nuclear weapon -- the impact on our national security and what it means for our standoff with Iran, that is all next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: All right. This is where it all started. Let me take you back, August 6, 1945, the day the United States dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. This was the dawn of the nuclear age, which eventually brought with it a nuclear arms race, a threat of global annihilation, and now fears of nuclear terrorism.
Today, we can pose a new question. Is this now where it starts to end? An otherwise unassuming news conference held today at the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Robert Gates announced a series of steps the current administration pledged to undertake, in hopes of leading toward a nuclear-free world -- a nuclear-free world.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GATES: This NPR determined that the United States will not develop new nuclear warheads. Programs to extend the lives of warheads will use only nuclear components based on previously tested designs and will not support new military missions or provide for new military capabilities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: So, we are not going to be making any new nuclear weapons. We won't seek to upgrade the ones we have now. We're promising not to use them against non-nuclear nations, as long as they promise to stay that way.
Serious stuff here, and it calls for serious conversation.
Foreign policy expert Joseph Cirincione, a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and president of the -- of another fund. But he was -- mainly his job is with -- at least while we're trying to get his knowledge right now is because of that role on the foreign policy.
Sir, we appreciate you being here with us.
A nuclear-free world, nobody thought we would possibly get to that point, certainly any time soon. But is this putting us on that path?
JOSEPH CIRINCIONE, PRESIDENT, PLOUGHSHARES FUND: Well, every president since Harry Truman has wanted to eliminate nuclear weapons. Ronald Reagan came very close. John F. Kennedy spoke eloquently about it.
But what's different is, you now have this new centrist consensus embodied in this new document, this nuclear posture review, that says, as long as we have nuclear weapons, we will maintain the best nuclear weapons in the world, make sure they're safe, secure and reliable, but we want to get to a place where no one has nuclear weapons.
We're going to reduce the roles, reduce the missions, and undertake a step-by-step process with other countries to eventually eliminate these nuclear weapons. That's what makes this posture review so different from all previous strategic assessments. (CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: What about those who will come out and certainly say -- and I'm sure you've been reading about it already -- that -- saying we are showing our hand? How can we come out and just say we're not going to do something before we are presented with a particular situation? We should leave everything on the table.
CIRINCIONE: Well, this is a very carefully negotiated document. And it keeps the options open for the United States. But what it says is, look, we're the most powerful conventional military power on the planet. We don't need nuclear weapons for most missions. We would only use them in extreme circumstances.
And, so, it's says we're going to reduce the roles, reduce the missions, give other countries assurances, in part to help convince other countries not to acquire them themselves. But, if you violate the rules, like Iran, if you break out and try to become a nuclear power, like North Korea, then you are going to still remain in the nuclear crosshairs of the United States.
So, in those extreme circumstances, we reserve the right to use them. Otherwise, we're less interested. We don't really need the thousands of weapons we currently have.
HOLMES: And you mentioned Iran and North Korea. Certainly, it appeared they were making clear that they were leaving some wiggle room and making sure those two were going to be exceptions.
But what about the rest of the world for another country that might have those ambitions? How do you get other countries, other nuclear powers as well, how do you get them along the way of -- of your thinking to -- to get them to take these -- essentially adopt the same document they just put out today?
CIRINCIONE: Yes.
Well, one of the things you find is military guys saying today, including the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, saying, we're not going to develop any new weapons, we're not going to have any new tests, we're not going to have any new nuclear missions for these weapons.
And this is the consensus in the military, that these are weapons from the last century, less useful for the 21st century's nuclear threats. We are going to reduce our numbers. We are going to reduce our missions. And you should, too, and so that one of the lessons here for the other states is that these are not weapons that you should aspire to. These are not necessary for us. These are not necessary for you.
You build this consensus. What the posture review does is put all the pieces together, how does this fit in with the new agreement that the United States is going to sign with Russia on Thursday, how does it fit in the nuclear security summit, 47 heads of state coming to Washington next Tuesday. (CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: Last thing, are we starting -- will we look back on this moment today as -- I mean, if it's some 50 years down the road, somebody else will be sitting here having this conversation talking about, this day was the day we started to wind the clock back and started on the path of a nuclear-free world?
CIRINCIONE: It's very possible.
This -- this posture review crystallizes the national security consensus that you see in nuclear security experts, in -- in military chiefs, in our own leaders, who are saying, we can get rid of these weapons. We don't need them to respond to a Soviet attack anymore.
The main threat is nuclear terrorism and new nuclear states. Let's go down to lower and lower levels. Here's the road map, careful, pragmatic steps towards this ideal objective. Do it very carefully. Look around. Check, and we can make sure that we can take the next step. But this is the plan. This is the first time you have seen the U.S. government articulate this kind of plan. It's an historic, exciting moment.
HOLMES: Well, Joseph Cirincione, we appreciate you giving us the proper perspective here, again, foreign policy expert.
I know you are going to be watching that meeting next week in Washington as well talking about nuclear security. We will watch it with you.
CIRINCIONE: I'm going --
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: You going to be there?
CIRINCIONE: I'm going to be going there. The president's invited me to the reception on Tuesday night. I'm honored to accept.
HOLMES: Oh, well, all right. We will make sure you are a fly on the wall up there, then.
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: We will be talking to you again soon. Good to see you.
CIRINCIONE: Thank you.
HOLMES: All right.
Now, of course, not everyone agrees maybe this is a history- making day. Certainly, maybe they don't think it's putting us in the right direction.
We can who you one representative, Todd Tiahrt from -- from Kansas here. He's talking about President Obama. And he says: "The plan to unilaterally disarm places us at risk. A strong America is a safe America. Don't tie our hands" -- just one of many responses we will be seeing over the days and weeks, responding. Some don't think this was the right move to make. But the president made it today.
Also, we have been showing you some compelling video of a military mission that went wrong -- deadly consequences for two journalists. We lay out the story, show you more of this tragic shooting, and try to get some answers. That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: Well, the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, was supposed to visit the White House in May. Supposed to. He might get scratched off the guest list.
You're seeing the pictures here from the president just visiting Hamid Karzai. President Obama just visiting over in Afghanistan not long ago, but he might not extend the same courtesy to the Afghan president.
What's up with the increasingly tense relationship between the two countries? That's just ahead.
Also, we're standing by for a news conference about the West Virginia coal mine tragedy. Our Brooke Baldwin, she's at the mine rescue headquarters and will give us an update. That's coming up just next.
Brooke, stand by. We'll talk to you in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: In the heart of West Virginia coal country, families, friends sharing personal stories about the 25 miners who were killed in the Upper Big Branch mine blast. One of those, Joseph Napper (ph), 27 years old, left a job in health care in Ohio to work in the mine because there was more money underground.
He could bench press 500 pounds. His cousin says he would have moved half that mountain if he could. He is leaving behind a baby daughter.
The community also holding out hope for four miners who are still missing in that blast. They have many difficult hours ahead.
Brooke Baldwin is in Marsh Fork, West Virginia, covering this for us.
We are expecting, Brooke, in 25 minutes, maybe more of an update. And maybe we will know more about these four miners.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. Exactly I'll check my watch. You got it, T.J., 25 minutes from now.
There's a little elementary school that's just over my left shoulder, and it's essentially become a media staging area. And that's where we'll be hearing, presumably, from West Virginia Governor Joe Manchin. And that is when we should hear definitively when this next round two rescue mission can commence again.
I say rescue mission semi-nebulously, simply because that doesn't mean they're going to send a bunch of rescue crews back inside this mine. Instead, that's when they begin the process of drilling those tiny deep holes 1,200 feet deep into this massive mountain, into this massive coal mine. The big question, of course, is how long may that potentially painstakingly slow process take?
Here is Governor Joe Manchin from earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JOE MANCHIN (D), WEST VIRGINIA: They're telling me that the first hole could be as late as tomorrow evening before the first hole was down, knowing what the conditions would be then to send the rescue teams in. So it's going to be a very long, slow process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: A long, slow process.
You know, a lot of us covering this story here, we've all sort of been reminiscing over just four years ago, January, 2006, having covered the Sago mine disaster in northern West Virginia.
And just, T.J., I lived, I worked in West Virginia for three years. I've covered coal country before. And it's just important to emphasize if you've never been to West Virginia, if you really don't know, this really is the state's bread and butter.
Economically speaking, this is their livelihood. This is what gives America power. And no matter really what you think of coal mining -- and a lot of it really has been criticized -- this is the way of life here in West Virginia. Everyone in this neck of the woods affected -- T.J.
HOLMES: No doubt about it. And we learn more and more and more about these victims as we get the names.
Brooke, thank you. I know we're going to be checking back in with you soon because that press conference is going to be starting. So we will see you back here shortly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARI WATKINS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, OKLAHOMA CITY MEMORIAL: This has never been covered in their history classes at all. It's not currently part of their required curriculum.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Well, a lot of you will remember the Oklahoma City bombings. A lot of people, people who were little ones, they didn't live through it like so many of us did. But students there in Oklahoma City, they can visit a memorial to find out more about it. But they can't find much about the tragedy in their own textbooks. Why?
That's ahead.
Also, the video that we've been telling you about, and it's tough to take your eyes off of. It was leaked online, footage showing a U.S. military chopper shooting journalists mistaken for insurgents. A very powerful video. It has raised a lot of questions.
We're going to get answers from that man. You'll recognize the face and the name as well, retired Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt. He's our guest, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: A short time ago we showed you a short clip, newly- released gun camera footage from a U.S. helicopter attack on insurgents in Iraq. Now you're going to see the rest of it.
I want to remind you that what we're talking about here happened in June of '07. There was spiking violence in Baghdad, lots of American and coalition casualties. U.S. gunships, Apache helicopters, they're overlooking a street in a violent neighborhood where they've been told a group of armed men is gathering and growing.
OK. We'll stop this particular tape there for now.
Now, my guest is going to help talk us through some of this video. Retired Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, you'll remember him, the coalition spokesman when the war in Iraq began.
General Kimmitt, thank you for being here. We're going to watch these clips together. Let's set up the first one here. We're going to play it in its entirety with the audio up, and then I'm going to come out and talk to you about it.
Let's play this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have individuals with weapons. He's got a weapon, too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have five to six individuals with AK-47s. Request permission to engage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roger that. We have no personnel east of our position. So you are free to engage. Over.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. We'll be engaging.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roger, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going -- I can't get them now because they're behind that building. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Bushmaster --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's got RPG.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. We've got a guy with an RPG.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. No hold on. Let's come around.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Behind the buildings right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Getting ready to fire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we had a guy shooting. Now he's behind the building.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come around.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Negative. He was right in front of the brad. About there, 1:00. Haven't seen anything since then.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once you get on them, open on them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see your element. Got four Humvees.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're clear. All right, firing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me know when you got them. Let's shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Light them all up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: All right. Kind of set the scene there, General Kimmitt.
Certainly, the helicopter was trying to figure out what was going on the ground. We heard a lot of names, a lot of back-and-forth, the pilot's voice, I assume as well.
Now, whoever was making the call -- who was making the decision there to open fire? And was that person seeing exactly what we were seeing in that video there?
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, first of all, you have two actors in this operation. You have the people in the air, you have the people on the ground.
It would appear that the Crazyhorse element were the air. The other element was on the ground clearing the area, demonstrating and clearing for the helicopters that no American troops were in the vicinity.
It's important to note that this operation had been going on for four hours. The unit on the ground had been taking potshots and aimed fire for about the last four hours. So, clearly, the context of it is this is the middle of an armed battlefield, so to speak.
The helicopters are there to assist the American troops on the ground. The American troops on the ground are about 100 meters away.
The Apaches have asked for clearance to fire when they've identified armed insurgents, and those troops on the ground, number one, identified no American troops there. And number two, said they were cleared to engage. And that's what the pilots did.
HOLMES: Now, that's what they did. So that's going to lead us to this second clip.
Now, we're going to let our viewers know you're going to see a blank box when the firing actually happens, because we want to protect -- this is some pretty graphic footage. So we don't want to show you too much. We're going to put a blank box over some of the worst parts here.
But we're going to show you now, and it does show the group of men after the firing started. And it does show them being shot and killed.
Let's play this next clip, then I'll talk to you about this one as well, General.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're clear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, firing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me know when you got them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Light them all up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, fire.
(GUNFIRE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep shooting. Keep shooting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bushmaster Two, Six. We need to move now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just engaged all eight individuals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We see two birds and we're still firing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're mobile.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry. What was going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hit them. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're clear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm just trying to find targets again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bushmaster Six, this is Bushmaster Two-Six.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got a bunch of bodies laying there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. We got about eight individuals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: All right. And we all are trying to understand these rules of engagement.
So, are the guys circling -- and one thing, you know, just kind of allay a question here. Why is it -- and you can explain this to our viewers -- why is it the guys there on the ground who were the targets don't know that a helicopter, which most people would assume is loud, why don't they know there's a helicopter up there circling around targeting them? It's not necessarily as close as one might think.
KIMMITT: Well, as I understand, the helicopters could have been as much as 800 meters away. It's a large city. They could think that they were blocks away, not necessarily looking at them.
What you're looking at is a screen under high magnification. So it's very clear that had they seen helicopters aiming at them, they probably would have taken some different action. But our technology is such that we can do this from quite a distance away.
HOLMES: Now, what are the rules here? Are the guys in the helicopter depending on the guys on the ground to confirm, in fact, these are insurgents and they're armed? Or is it up to the guys who are up there in the helicopter to be able from that distance -- I know that high-powered lens -- to be able to look and make the call, all right, these are bad guys, they're all bad guys, let's shoot?
KIMMITT: Well, as you heard, the Crazyhorse element asked the ground element, the Bushmaster element, for clearance. They're clearing the fires, and the ground unit traditionally has the responsibility to clear those fires.
So, while the helicopters have eyes on, the guys on the ground also have the responsibility to make sure there are no American troops in the area, or any other elements such as large numbers of civilians that would preclude clearing those fires to go ahead. So it's a dual effort between the people in the air and the people on the ground.
HOLMES: All right. Let's go to the third clip here. This one's going to show a van that actually pulls up and tries to apparently pick up one of the men who has been injured, and then the Americans engage again.
We're going to look at this one and I'll ask you about it on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Crazyhorse, we have individuals going to the scene. Looks like possibly picking up bodies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me engage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I shoot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roger. Break. Crazyhorse One-Eight, request permission to engage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trying to get permission.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, let us shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bushmaster, Crazyhorse One-Eight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're taking him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bushmaster, Crazyhorse One-Eight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bushmaster Seven, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roger, we have a black bongo truck picking up the bodies. Request permission to engage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bushmaster Seven, roger. Bushmaster Seven, roger. Engage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One-Eight, engage. Clear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: And General, help people here who maybe don't understand war the way a man like you would. For people to see this and see that a van pulled up -- I mean, they're making an assumption about where it came from, but they're trying to help people who are wounded, and then they are engaged and they're fired on.
Why was that still necessary? What are the rules of engagement there? And does this hurt us in some way in that people see this and, I don't know, people just don't think that's right? If we're trying to win hearts and minds, that people would see this, and it doesn't seem like just something a kinder and gentler nation should be doing.
KIMMITT: Well, first of all, I think we need to put it in context. The reports demonstrate that during that day, American troops on the ground had seen vehicles dropping off and picking up insurgents. These vehicles were actually being used as part of the battlefield. And while if it had a red cross on it indicating that it was an ambulance of some kind, it would have some sort of protected status at this point.
But this was an instrument -- what we call an instrument of war. And as a result, it is being used in the conflict to assist those insurgents. And as a result, is a legitimate target.
Your point is well taken about the overall effects, the strategic effects that come from this tactical engagement. And these are the issues that any time we have an engagement of this type, we've got to be very, very careful about how it is not only seen at the tactical level, but the strategic level as well. I think that's one of the reasons you saw General McChrystal in Afghanistan issue his dictum that we would protect the population as much as possible.
But I think it's also important to talk about the context of this operation.
This fight was happening in the middle of '07. The previous 90 days had been the largest number of casualties the Americans had ever taken. It was the middle of the surge.
This fight had been going on for four hours. And after this event, there was another engagement where the helicopters had to fire on some insurgents.
So, as one takes a look at this and puts it in context, it is an unnecessary -- excuse me, a necessary but unfortunate aspect of war, and particularly when you take a look at the fact that this was precipitated by the press complaining when the people on the ground had failed to follow their own procedures about clearly identifying themselves as press, wearing outer garments that identified them as press, wearing those outer garments may have saved a life here. And unfortunately, a number of lives were lost unnecessarily because they failed to adhere to their own procedures.
HOLMES: Well, like you say there, even though it's powerful video, it helps us better understand sometimes war. You still have to look a little deeper and get a little better perspective. And that's why we have you here, General Kimmitt.
So we appreciate you taking the time. And always good to see you. Thanks so much.
KIMMITT: Thank you.
HOLMES: All right. A quick break. We're right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: All right. Time to check in with Wolf Blitzer for "The Wolf Pack." Wolf, talked to you a couple days ago, sir, about this relationship between the U.S. and the Afghan president, between Obama and Karzai. We thought they might be trying to patch this thing up, but are you telling me it's actually getting worse now?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. It is getting worse.
And the White House today, for the first time, suggesting, you know what? That May 12th invitation for President Karzai to come to the White House, the invitation that President Obama gave President Karzai when he was in Kabul just a little bit more than a week or so ago, that invitation is now sort of up in the air.
Karzai is being told, you've got to tone down all that anti-West, anti-U.S. rhetoric, anti-foreigner rhetoric, blaming foreigners for all the bad things that are happening in Afghanistan right now, otherwise you might not have that invitation to come to Washington. So it looks like that relationship is heating up even more.
HOLMES: Now, we talk about -- and kind of amazing to think that they are putting out there they might take this invitation back. Now, are they serious about that, or do we see they throw a couple shots across the bow every now and again? Or this might actually happen, they might tell him to stay away?
BLITZER: Yes, I think they're pretty serious. I think they're very, very irritated at what Karzai is doing in terms of the rhetoric, but even more so in terms of not clamping down on all the corruption and all the problems that are going on.
And when they heard that he told some of his political associates there that he might even be willing to join the Taliban if this outside intervention, this interference, as he calls it, in Afghan matters doesn't fall backwards, that was pretty outrageous to the U.S. side. And I think the folks in the White House are pretty angry right now.
HOLMES: Yes, that was pretty outstanding, that he would say something like that about the Taliban. But that came also after he had gotten off the phone with Secretary Clinton, after they were supposedly trying to patch things up.
Is there any worry at the White House that maybe Karzai is about to go do his own thing, that he is about to go off and we're not going to be able to -- I shouldn't say control, but still get a good handle on him, and he's not going to be a reliable ally?
BLITZER: Yes, there's deep worry about that. They know Karzai. He's been around since right after 9/11, when the U.S. went in, got rid of the Taliban, got rid of al Qaeda. And there's been a longstanding, pretty good relationship with President Karzai.
I've interviewed him on several occasions myself, and I've gotten to know him. And I'm pretty surprised by some of the things he's saying. It doesn't seem to fit with the Hamid Karzai that I know, and certainly that U.S. officials know a whole lot better than I do. So it's a pretty surprising development. I'm not exactly clear on what's behind it.
HOLMES: All right. Wolf Blitzer, we're going to see you in just a few minutes.
What do you have coming up?
BLITZER: We've got obviously a lot more on that.
We're also standing by for a news conference in West Virginia. We assume the governor, Joe Manchin, is going to be briefing us on what's going on in the search for those four missing miners. Let's hope they're still alive.
HOLMES: Yes. We'll be talking to you -- or seeing you, actually, in just a few minutes.
Wolf, always good to see you. Thank you, sir.
BLITZER: All right, T.J. Thanks.
HOLMES: All right. A quick break. We're right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: And just a reminder, we are expecting a press conference at the top of the hour, 5:00 Eastern, when it's scheduled for, to give an update about what's happening in West Virginia with the efforts to try to possibly find four miners who are still unaccounted for. Again, like we said, 25 confirmed dead.
We'll certainly bring that to you when it happens.
Also, on one last note here before we go, we know you were watching it last night. It was billed possibly as one of the biggest upset stories possibly to happen, a David versus Goliath for the ages. But what some people forget to tell you is that in most David versus Goliath match-ups, Goliath usually wins.
And Duke did. They held off Butler, 61-59, last night to win their fourth championship, or the fourth at least for Mike Krzyzewski.
Butler had a chance at the end. It didn't quite happen.
So congratulations to the Duke Blue Devils.
And nothing for your heads to be down about, the Butler Bulldogs.
Congratulations.
Now time for Wolf Blitzer. We're out of here.
