Return to Transcripts main page
Rick's List
Maryland College Student Beaten by Police?; Anger Erupts Following Deadly Bus Attack in Afghanistan; Cure For Baldness?; The Great Immigration Debate; Newscaster in South Africa Has Scuffle With Guest
Aired April 14, 2010 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: We have shown you a piece of video, and we have been amazed by the reaction. It's triggered a lot of Twitter activity and e-mail activity. It's a confrontation caught on live television during a newscast in South Africa, but there's a much deeper story here. Another chapter unfolds and we are going to share it with you.
Meanwhile, here is what we have got coming your way.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Here's what's making THE LIST today.
Now we're finding out more about this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Visagie --
(CROSSTALK)
ANDRE VISAGIE, SECRETARY-GENERAL, AWB: You won't dare interrupting me.
SANCHEZ: Violence, murders, blatant racism, and the story's only growing.
JULIUS MALEMA, ANC YOUTH LEAGUE LEADER: Don't come here with that white tendency, not here. You can go out.
SANCHEZ: Caught on camera, a student beaten by police. Did they blatantly lie about what happened?
(on camera): Whether or not you are embarrassed after looking at the video.
MAJOR ANDREW ELLIS, SPOKESPERSON, PRINCE GEORGE'S COUNTY, MARYLAND, POLICE DEPARTMENT: We are embarrassed and we are outraged.
SANCHEZ: Outrage. And now the FBI is involved. What will be done to these police officers?
And on the medical list, say goodbye to baldness forever. What?
The lists you need to know about. Who's today's most intriguing? Who's making news on Twitter? It's why I keep a list, pioneering tomorrow's cutting-edge news right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Duke University is no doubt when it comes to basketball the best school in the country. Year in and year out, they're either in the top five or they win the whole darn thing
So, this year, when the University of Maryland took on Duke and beat them, you can imagine how excited the students were. They poured onto the streets. They started to party, and they started to do some of the dumb things that sometimes kids will do when they're all too happy and maybe they have had a couple of beers.
That's the case of this young man you're looking at right here. We have put his picture up so you can see it right there on this plasma. That's what he looks like prior to what you are about to see. This story of what happened on this day as he was celebrating, as told by Brad Bell from WJLA.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRAD BELL, WJLA REPORTER (voice-over): On the video, University of Maryland student John McKenna first appears skipping down the sidewalk next to Knox Road. He is singing a cheer, celebrating Maryland's basketball win over Duke, when he comes face to face with a Park Police mounted officer. He stops dead in his tracks and actually backs up.
Watch carefully what happens now, as he is slammed into the wall, knocked unconscious, and then beaten more than a dozen times by Prince George's County police officers. McKenna's lawyers say there is only one way to characterize what happened.
CHRISTOPHER GRIFFITHS, ATTORNEY FOR JOHN MCKENNA: This is police brutality, pure and simple.
BELL: And, Griffiths says, the actual beating is only half the story. This is the sworn statement of charges against McKenna by the police. It alleges assault on a police officer and disorderly conduct. It claims that McKenna -- quote -- "struck those officers and their horses," causing minor injuries, and that McKenna was -- quote -- "kicked by the horses and sustained minor injuries."
GRIFFITHS: Clearly, the charging document is a lie. As you can see from the tape, there's not a single fact in that statement of charges that's true.
BELL: We showed the video and charging documents to Prince George's County Police Major Andy Ellis today. He says the police internal affairs office will begin an immediate investigation.
MAJOR ANDY ELLIS, PRINCE GEORGE'S COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: There are things in that video that concern me, Brad, and we're going to take a look at it.
BELL: Federal investigators will also be looking at the tapes to determine if civil rights violations occurred. But county prosecutors may now pursue assault charges when the officers involved are identified.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: It goes further than this, because, yesterday, I had a conversation with some of the police officers, the superiors to those officers. And they told me they're embarrassed by what they have learned about this story and some of the facts that we have uncovered that we have been sharing with them.
Joining us now is John McKenna's attorney. His name is Chris Griffiths.
Chris, thanks so much for being with us. We appreciate your time.
GRIFFITHS: Happy to be here.
SANCHEZ: Did you see the interview I did yesterday with Mr. Ellis?
GRIFFITHS: I did.
SANCHEZ: Were you surprised that they were so honest about the fact that it appears that they're culpable?
GRIFFITHS: Well, they were honest in the sense that they indicated that they were troubled by the things that they saw on the video.
SANCHEZ: They said they were embarrassed.
(CROSSTALK)
GRIFFITHS: Embarrassed.
And then out the other side of their mouth, they suggested that maybe we hadn't seen everything; perhaps something happened prior to -- to the incident that was actually depicted on the video.
SANCHEZ: Is anybody saying that? Is anybody --
GRIFFITHS: And, so --
SANCHEZ: Is anybody out there saying that your client did something prior to this video that may have instigated this thing? And, if so, what?
GRIFFITHS: Nobody is saying that that knows anything about the case.
But I have seen press accounts by Mr. Ellis and other individuals who are making that suggestion. And, frankly, I would -- I would challenge them to provide the documentation, the reports, the names of any people who witnessed this young man do anything, because I can tell you, I have investigated the case, and what you see on the tape is everything there is to know about what happened.
SANCHEZ: Well, here's the problem. And I think the biggest problem that most people have is not just the fact that the police officers may have -- may have gotten a little out of control, but it's what they did afterward.
They say that they didn't even hit this kid; the only reason he was hurt, your client, was because he got accidentally kicked by the horse.
That appears to be a blatant lie, I mean, bald-faced.
GRIFFITHS: It is. It's -- yes, it's a lie. And it's intended to cover up the officers' misconduct, as I have been saying.
I mean, the things that are represented in that statement of charges was -- incidentally, is a document that is prepared under the penalties of perjury. And the things that are represented in that document are intended to avoid culpability on the part of the officers.
For instance, if you say a horse kicked somebody, you don't have to prepare a document known as a use-of-force report. A use-of-force report would -- would indicate who actually struck the person, why they struck the person, what the injuries were, what the medical treatment was.
They didn't want to have to prepare that kind of report. So, it -- what they do is say that the horse kicked him.
It's a fallacy. It's intended to cover up the misconduct.
SANCHEZ: Why -- is there any -- do you have any sense or has your client told you -- by the way, I should stop and ask this. That should have been one of the earlier questions. How is your client doing? Is he OK? Because he took a pretty good beating there.
GRIFFITHS: He did take a pretty good beating. And, you know, he's a -- he's a young man, and he's recovering physically.
Of course, he's -- it was quite a traumatic event for him. And what you have to keep in mind also, Rick, is that this young man was charged with a very serious crime.
SANCHEZ: Yes, he was.
GRIFFITHS: Assaulting a police officer is a --
SANCHEZ: Not anymore.
GRIFFITHS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Not anymore, though, right?
GRIFFITHS: Yes. And assaulting a police officer is a felony in the state of Maryland. And this is something -- although he's been vindicated in the criminal case, it's something that will follow him for the rest of his life.
SANCHEZ: Charges were dropped.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: I should -- I should -- I should just add that charges were dropped --
GRIFFITHS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: -- yesterday. After we started doing this story, we heard from the police. They told us charges would be dropped. I think we have got some pictures of him with the injuries that he sustained.
Do we have those? Well, we're looking at pictures of what appears to be his hand. This is his arm. I mean ,this looks like somebody -- ooh, that's the top of his head, I guess, his scalp. And that looks like part of his back.
Did he do anything that -- when he -- Roger, show those pictures again when he's coming up to the horse. I have -- I have watched this at least a hundred times. And I have been careful to look at it many times. Let's go back, Roger, if you can, and find that picture.
OK. There he is. Now, there's the horse. Did he touch the horse? Did he say something to the guy on the horse? Did he --
GRIFFITHS: No.
SANCHEZ: It looks like he's backing away.
GRIFFITHS: No, he absolutely didn't touch the horse.
And you can tell from his -- his demeanor, his body language, as he approaches this police line, he really was unaware of the police presence. He was actually caught off guard. And that's where you see him. He stands, and then he takes a step back.
We have another source down there on the street, another source of video. It was an iPhone video. So, the actual visual portion of it is -- is not very good. But the audio portion is very good.
And it is clear that he doesn't say a word to the police. You cannot hear the police give him any sort of instructions, and they -- they simply jump him.
SANCHEZ: Would you -- if -- if I have my -- if I have Janelle (ph) call you -- I know you and Janelle (ph) have had several conversations. If I have Janelle (ph) call you, two you think you might be able to make that -- that other iPhone video available to us in some way or another?
GRIFFITHS: Sure. Yes, we can do that.
SANCHEZ: Would you do that for us?
GRIFFITHS: We can do that, yes.
SANCHEZ: I certainly would appreciate that, so then we can move forward on this story.
Today, there's news that the FBI may step in and investigate. What do you know about that, and why do you believe it's significant?
GRIFFITHS: Well, I don't know a lot about that, other than to say we're going to cooperate fully with the FBI and the Justice Department, should they seek to go forward.
SANCHEZ: So -- so, if they go forward with a criminal investigation against these officers, your client would, I would imagine, cooperate in all forms, right?
GRIFFITHS: Absolutely.
SANCHEZ: And are you -- are you falling a lawsuit as well?
GRIFFITHS: There will be a lawsuit filed within the coming weeks.
SANCHEZ: My thanks to you, sir, for taking time to take us through this. And we will be in touch with you to see what else we can do as we look into this story, since we have noticed that it's been really the kind of story that's gotten the attention of so many Americans all over the country who have been watching us.
Our best to you and our best to your client. Thank you, sir.
GRIFFITHS: Thank you, sir.
SANCHEZ: Actor Steven Seagal is being accused of keeping a sex slave. And his accuser is a former model. These are serious and bizarre charges against this man. We will bring you the lowdown. Also -- and what he's saying, by the way.
Also, this incident is changing how we train our soldiers in Afghanistan. And it's General McChrystal -- General McChrystal who is most upset about this incident that we will prepare for you.
And then what to do with illegal immigrants and a new law that may be hitting the books -- we will tell you what it is.
This is RICK'S LIST. It's your list, and it's coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: This is my short list of stories that we all need to know about today: nearly 600 dead after an earthquake hits Western China, magnitude 6.9.
It's a series of aftershocks that have hit within hours after the quake. And that's what's created the bigger problem, certainly for rescuers. They have been clawing through the debris by hand to try and get the survivors.
China's state-run television stations say about 1,000 people have been pulled from the rubble alive. Buildings are destroyed. Roads are damaged. People have lost power. The hardest-hit area is in remote, rugged, mountainous areas near the border with Tibet.
More rescuers are headed to the region, and there may be thousands who have still not been rescued.
Meanwhile, I want to take you to Afghanistan now and calls of death to America, this after U.S. forces fired on a passenger bus. This was in Kandahar yesterday. At least four civilians were killed.
Our Atia Abawi is showing us now exactly what happened, and she tells us about the fallout.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ATIA ABAWI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A couple of mornings ago, before sunrise, in Kandahar province, U.S. troops shot and killed four civilians, including a woman, injuring at least 18 others.
This happened when a U.S. patrol on a route-clearing patrol in Kandahar saw a large vehicle quickly approaching them. According to the military, they said they sent out flares and signals for this bus to stop, but it did not.
Therefore, they thought it could have been an insurgent attacker. Then they fired on them, killing at least four civilians. This obviously outraged the Afghan people. That same morning in Kandahar City, a protest where Afghans were chanting "Death to America," obviously very, very upset.
But another interesting person here that was very upset, according to officials close to him, was the top NATO commander in Afghanistan, General Stanley McChrystal, who issued a tactical directive back in the summer of 2009 making sure that ISAF forces do not target any civilians, even insurgents that may be around civilians, because General McChrystal has said in the past and has said time and time again, no war in Afghanistan can ever be won without the support of the Afghan people.
And, through the last couple of years, the support has been dwindling down because of these civilian casualties, because of these airstrikes. In fact, General McChrystal was so upset that -- that the official said that he actually told the commanders throughout Afghanistan, with all the ISAF partners, that they had to review the tactical directive with every single ISAF soldier and troop in uniform.
Atia Abawi, CNN, Kabul. (END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VISAGIE: It's a real fact.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you care about the starving millions of African people in this country?
VISAGIE: I care more --
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you care about the farm workers who are being oppressed in this country? Do you care about --
(CROSSTALK)
VISAGIE: Don't interrupt me. I'm finished. Thank you. Bye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Oh, my goodness. Your response to this outrageous incident in a South African television studio prompted me to dig a little deeper and see what I could find out. You're not going to believe what I have learned that's going on as a result of that and other cases like it.
Also, this:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This bill, whether we intend it or not, terrorizes the people we profit from.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Does it? They're protesting Arizona's crackdown on immigration. This one includes a new proposed law. Will it secure the border and deal with illegal immigration problems in this country, specifically on the border states like Arizona? What you're saying is still ahead.
Also, the list that you don't want to be on, it's the one we bring you every day. It's the one you tell me you look forward to. And it's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. This is your list, RICK'S LIST.
You know, sometimes, all you have got to do is be real strange to make the list that nobody wants to be on.
Yes, look who is making a repeat appearance. It is former Democratic Congressman Eric Massa from New York. "The Washington Post" reports that new details are now emerging about one of the congressman's own staff members, who says Massa's behavior was bizarre.
It's about overnight trips. It's about what happened when they were sharing a house together, he and his staff. After months of alleged inappropriate touching and lewd comments, "The Post," "The Washington Post" is reporting that Massa hit on a bartender at a funeral for a dead Marine. Talk about timing being everything.
That incident compelled staff to contact Congressman Steny Hoyer. And that was the beginning of the end for Massa in the form of an ethics investigation. The details are ugly and embarrassing. So, let me just say the upshot of the story is that Eric Massa created a huge and terrible situation for himself, and that is why, on this day, as a result of these new details, he is number one on the list that you don't want to be on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VISAGIE: I am not finished with you.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Visagie, stop threatening this woman. Mr. Visagie, I'm telling you, stop it now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Yes, this thing gets crazy, race and rage in South Africa on display during a heated television interview and in tensions through the countries. Now, we decided to dig deeper, and the results are fascinating. That's ahead.
Also, two health problems that men dread, a little blue pill can fix one of them, and now there's medicine that's one step closer to fixing the other. It's called the baldness breakthrough. That is a live picture that you're looking at right there. And I'm going to take you through the story of men and their issue, and the fact that it may now be fixed, thanks to a huge medical breakthrough.
I will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back to RICK'S LIST. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Topping our medical list today: the potential end to baldness forever. Researchers believe that they have identified a gene in people that affects hair growth.
Our senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, is joining us now. We have put her in a very special place where she's going to be able to take us through this.
You know, the men in our morning meeting, Elizabeth, were kind of excited about this news. But, when we read the story, it was all about researchers and genes and rare conditions.
Point-blank, are we going to be able to come to a point where we end baldness as a result of this breakthrough everybody is talking about?
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Down the line, Rick. I think that probably, way down the line, people may see this as the beginning of the time that researchers could start thinking about treatments for baldness that really, really work and that really work from the very beginning from the time that a man starts balding.
But I will be honest with you, this is not something a man can access like right now. You cannot go to your family doctor and get any treatment for baldness.
But, as you said, you put me in a special place. I'm the CNN hair and makeup room.
SANCHEZ: Uh-huh.
COHEN: And I brought two friends with me. I brought Nathan, who here in CNN satellites.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
COHEN: And he's got some peach fuzz going on here.
Hope -- you mind if I touch your head?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Go ahead.
(LAUGHTER)
COHEN: And, so, he's exhibit A. And then we have exhibit B here, who is Greg, who, as you can see, has a full head of hair.
And what's interesting here --
SANCHEZ: What's the -- what's the -- I'm just looking. What's -- hold on.
Hey, Roger, go -- go -- what -- what do -- don't I have a little right here as well? See that right there?
What do you think, Elizabeth?
COHEN: Yes, a little bit. You're somewhere in between these two guys.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But, I mean, if you really get in there, you will find that it's a kind of little pattern baldness, right?
COHEN: A little bit, although I will tell you that Nathan just said he would kill to have your head of hair. (LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: And I will tell you that Nathan is significantly younger than you, Rick, and Nathan is also significantly younger than Greg.
So, the question is, why is he balding in his 20s -- he doesn't know -- whereas Greg and you, too, Rick, have pretty much a full head of hair?
SANCHEZ: What's the answer?
COHEN: Well, the answer is, is that they looked at folks who were balding in their -- as children actually. They started balding early, and they found they often had this gene. And then they looked at, well, what does this gene do?
And what the gene did was, it put into motion a series of events that affected the hair follicle. So, at first, the hair follicle could support nice thick hair like this. But then, over time, the hair follicle could only support little bits of peach fuzz like this.
So, if they can figure out what this gene does and then figure out how to undo it, they could possibly come up with a treatment for baldness.
SANCHEZ: And they really think they're on to something with this one.
I always thought you got it from your mother, which never made any sense to me, how your mom can pass on a bald gene to you. But that's what they say. But this is beyond that, right? This is -- takes it to another level, this new information.
COHEN: Right. This does take it to a new level, because it looks at what the genes actually does. Genes tell your body to do something. They tell it to develop in a certain way.
SANCHEZ: Ah.
COHEN: So, if we can figure out what this gene is telling your hair follicle to do, maybe they can figure out how to tell your hair follicle to do something else.
SANCHEZ: That's interesting. It's not just finding the gene. It's then finding out what the gene actually does to cause whatever it is it does.
(LAUGHTER)
COHEN: That's exactly right, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
COHEN: For example, we know that there are genes that cause, say, breast cancer, but we haven't cured breast cancer. So, just finding a gene for something doesn't mean you found the cure for something.
SANCHEZ: I got it.
And my thanks to both of you guys. Greg, behave yourself back there, will you? I appreciate that.
COHEN: He will.
SANCHEZ: Nathan -- Nathan, you're doing fine, with or without the hair. My thanks to both of you -- all three of you, I should say.
All right, look at this. Why is Steven Seagal being accused of keeping a sex slave who was a model? And why was she so afraid to come forward? This is an interesting, mysterious story that's unfolding. He has got his version of events as well. We're going to share it all.
Now, it's a fact we need to do something about illegal immigrants and the border, but will it take a law like the one they're about to pass in Arizona? I'm going to tell you what it is when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: I want to talk about illegal immigration and see if we can do it without getting too much mail.
This past Saturday in Las Vegas, thousands of people called on the president to try and keep his promise. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid was there. Nevada is his home state, as you know. And he's in a very tough re-election campaign.
Listen carefully to what Harry Reid told the crowd.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MAJORITY LEADER: We're going to come back. We're going to do comprehensive immigration reform now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: But then Harry Reid went back to Washington. And look at what he's saying then.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REID: We won't get to immigration reform this work period. We won't get to the Supreme Court justice this weekend. We have lots of things to do. And I've spent most of the caucus today visiting with my caucus on the things we have to do and how we're going to do them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Look, it's not a question about whether or not we want immigration reform. FAIR, which is one of the organizations that spearheaded resistance against it before, I'm reading their Web site. They're saying they're for immigration reform. Both sides are for reform. The question is, what kind of reform? What's the aim and what's it going to do?
Two folks here, OK. Let's go through this. I know this is the kind of issue that gets everybody all heated up.
Ruben Navarrette writes a column for "The San Diego Union- Tribune." Emily Miller is a columnist with "The Washington Times."
It's great to have both of you here.
Ruben, let's start with this -- look, there's no question, OK? If you live in a border state, you're going to be affected, you're going to be burdened, in fact -- we'll use that word -- by many illegal immigrants because you're working and living in a concentrated area where they sometimes overuse the school system, overuse the medical system.
That's a fact, right? You could understand why some people in Arizona and other places like that might be sometimes resistant to the onslaught of illegal immigrants, right?
RUBEN NAVARRETTE, "SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE": Rick, absolutely. I do understand that. I lived in Arizona. I've lived in Texas. And now I live in California. Three border states.
I absolutely understand that. But this wound that people are complaining about is a self-inflicted wound. What Arizonans need to understand and fess up to is that they brought this situation on to themselves by hiring illegal immigrants, by using illegal immigrant labor to build cities like Phoenix and to build Maricopa County. Now they complain about the same situation that they came to fruition.
SANCHEZ: Well, let me stop you there. I want to bring Emily into the conversation.
He makes a good point, Emily. Basically, what he's saying is, why do we blame the illegal immigrants? Why don't we blame the system that created this After all, we all but recruit them to come to this country. And then when they get here, we give them a tax I.D. number so that we can garnish their wages.
So, is it them really at fault or is the system screwed up?
EMILY MILLER, "THE WASHINGTON TIMES": Well, anybody who's coming to this system illegally is breaking the law. So, anyone who's hiring them is also breaking the law. And we have laws in place for immigration, and most immigrants I think easily can apply for visas, get in the line, get in the system, just like the system is set up. It's not that complicated.
I mean, it's complicated. But instead, they're sneaking across the border. You don't blame the person who is hiring them, you blame the person who is breaking the law. We don't blame the person who got murdered, you blame the murderer.
SANCHEZ: Wait a minute. You don't blame the person who is hiring them? You don't blame --
MILLER: I don't think that's the cause of the problem.
SANCHEZ: You think the system's fine? Well, hold on a minute.
MILLER: The problem is -- the main problem is our border. Our borders are not secure and they need to be secured.
SANCHEZ: Correct.
MILLER: And Barack Obama ran on this, said he was going to secure the borders. He's done absolutely nothing.
And in Arizona we've got this big election coming up where John McCain is running a primary against Representative Hayworth, J.D. Hayworth, who, Hayworth has been saying for years let's put troops on the border. That's the only way we're going to secure the southern border.
SANCHEZ: All right. Let's give Ruben a chance to get in here -- Ruben.
NAVARRETTE: Yes. It's always easy for people who don't live near the border, you know, faraway villages like Washington, D.C., to think about securing the border. The border is not so easily secured.
You build a wall, you build a fence, people build a tunnel to go underneath it. Folks who live on border states have a much more realistic idea of what it takes to control the border. And it starts with hiring.
If you go down and talk to border patrol men in green shirts with guns, they'll tell you that you cannot have border security unless you start cracking down on employers in the interior. And that's what needs to happen in Arizona.
Arizonans want to be free to blame this situation on somebody else. They created this problem.
SANCHEZ: Emily, let me ask you a question. Why do you want to get rid of all illegal immigrants?
MILLER: I'm not calling to get rid of all the illegal immigrants.
SANCHEZ: What would you do?
MILLER: We are a nation of immigrants. Every one of us did not come from here.
SANCHEZ: What would you do with the 11,000 (sic) or so illegal immigrants in this country right now? If you had to fix the problem tomorrow, what do you do with those people?
MILLER: Well, Rick, I wish it was 11,000. I think it's more like 11 million. SANCHEZ: I'm going with the short estimate. You can go with 19,000 -- 19 million. Oh, did I say "thousand?"
MILLER: Well, 11,000, they can all come live with me.
SANCHEZ: I'm sorry.
MILLER: Yes, we can put them all in an apartment building here in D.C. and the whole problem would be resolved.
SANCHEZ: I meant millions. What do you do with them?
MILLER: Yes, I know. Well, look, obviously the reason this issue and why reform went down in 2007 is because it's really complicated, what we're going to do with all these people who are illegally in the United States.
And we can't have them jump the line. People are waiting legally and trying to get into this country.
However, what we do need to do immediately is stop the flow of illegal immigrants. We're in a recession, we have 10 percent unemployment. There are not enough jobs for Americans. These are non-tax-paying people. And it's not fair to the immigrants --
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Wait, wait, wait, wait. That's a lie. They are tax- paying people.
MILLER: What's a lie?
SANCHEZ: What you just said, they are not tax-paying people.
NAVARRETTE: Rick, they do pay taxes.
MILLER: How can an illegal immigrant pay -- sales tax that you're talking about?
SANCHEZ: Emily --
NAVARRETTE: This isn't immigration reform for dummies. This is the basics here.
SANCHEZ: -- I thought you knew this.
NAVARRETTE: Illegal immigrants pay taxes.
SANCHEZ: You can't live in the United States --
MILLER: How?
NAVARRETTE: Payroll taxes, sales taxes.
SANCHEZ: And property taxes.
MILLER: Most illegal immigrants are being paid under the table, and they're being paid lower than minimum wage.
SANCHEZ: Emily, do they buy something at the store?
MILLER: Yes.
SANCHEZ: When they buy something at the store, are they taxed?
MILLER: Well, look, wouldn't you want these illegal immigrants to have a better life?
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: I do, but it bothers me -- my job on this show is to make sure people hear the truth. And I will tell you right now, there's a lot of problems with illegal immigration and a lot of things that we need to deal with. And we need comprehensive immigration reform because we've got those issues.
And I want to secure the borders and I want bad illegal immigrants to be kicked out of the country. I think everybody wants that. That's not speaking -- that's just talking like an American.
MILLER: We all agree.
SANCHEZ: But when you come on my show and you say that they don't pay taxes, that's a lie. I'm sorry.
NAVARRETTE: Rick, can I get in on this?
MILLER: I was sitting at home before I went on the show trying to get through Turbo Tax.
SANCHEZ: Right.
MILLER: Are you telling me that 11 million people out there are also filling out their forms on Turbo Tax?
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: They're actually -- no. Wait. I can take it a step further for you, Emily. They actually pay property taxes because they have to have a place to live unless they live under a bridge. They have to pay sales taxes because --
MILLER: Unless they rent.
SANCHEZ: When you pay rent, you pay property taxes.
They also have to pay sales tax because they buy things to feed their children. And yes, there's a tax I.D. number that's deducted from your payroll. So they pay Social Security tax, although they'll never get a penny of Social Security taxes. And yet, Americans get billions of dollars that they get into their Social Security as a result of the immigrants who pay into it.
Those are facts. MILLER: Well, you also haven't mentioned -- I agree -- I will cede you that. But also not mentioning that most people are not paying illegal immigrants payroll taxes or their Social Security taxes. So these people --
SANCHEZ: That's a good point.
MILLER: -- they're being paid less than minimum wage, they're not getting health insurance. They are not being treated fairly either.
SANCHEZ: You're right.
MILLER: What we need -- but all of this is -- there's so much that needs to be worked out in immigration reform. It's not going to happen this year.
Harry Reid comes out and says this on Saturday, and 48 hours later he realizes he can't because he's in a losing race in Nevada and he throws this Hail Mary pass to the Hispanic minority voters there which was completely -- he knew wouldn't come up in the Senate this year.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: And by the way, I just want to say that you make a very good point, that in many cases they're not paid outright.
MILLER: Well, thanks, Rick.
SANCHEZ: They're paid under the table. And just, by the way, there are people out there who aren't immigrants who kind of give the shaft to Uncle Sam and don't declare everything also.
MILLER: Especially --
NAVARRETTE: Rick?
SANCHEZ: Ruben, your turn. I'm sorry.
NAVARRETTE: Well, also, this notion that somehow -- listen, by way of background, I've written before -- it's a matter of public record -- in favor of workplace raises, in favor of deportations. But this notion somehow that there's a line people can get into, it's just not so.
If you talk to immigration lawyers and you ask them, basically, how does one come to the country if you're unskilled and poor from a country like Mexico, it's virtually impossible, if not impossible. This is not to excuse people who come in, but this notion somehow, this Pollyannaish notion that you need to go back and start getting in line, there is no line, Emily.
MILLER: But just as much -- do you know there's also so many people in Iraq right now who've worked for American contractors, worked for the American military, who are getting killed? And they are on the list as well, and they want to get in the United States. And shouldn't it be fair? I mean, they are living not just in poverty, they're living --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRETTE: The system isn't fair because back in 1965, when they reformed the immigration laws, they made these quotas per country and decided that you should have a greater allotment for a country like Mexico, because it's on the border, than for Iraq. That's Congress's deal. That's what they did.
But this notion somehow in a blissful -- in our ignorance that we can somehow go back to the front of the line, or go to the line, there is no line. People come in because it's the only way they can.
SANCHEZ: But Ruben, Emily is 100 percent right. If we can come up with a system where we can screen and determine who gets to come in and who doesn't, under what conditions, who gets to stay and who doesn't, we as a nation will be a hell of a lot better off instead of just having political arguments about it all the time.
NAVARRETTE: Absolutely.
SANCHEZ: I mean, she is right.
NAVARRETTE: Well, you need to have a reform effort, absolutely. You need to have a reform effort that takes into account the fact that at its core level, you have Americans who won't do these jobs, particularly young Americans who will not do these jobs at any wage. And that has to be part of it.
SANCHEZ: Well, hold on. When you said that --
Go ahead, Emily.
MILLER: Let's look at the bigger picture. And, you know, it's amazing. America has always been a nation of immigrants. It's always been a melting pot.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MILLER: And there is not one country around the world where people aren't trying to -- students want to come here for student visas and go to college, people want to work here. And it's great for our country. It just needs to be systematic, they can't just slipping in across the borders.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRETTE: On that we agree. That's much more realistic.
SANCHEZ: And there you go.
MILLER: And so how we secure the border -- you know, John McCain wants troops on the border. I think that's a good idea.
SANCHEZ: Now it's a question of -- Emily, we're out of time. I'm glad we had a spirited conversation.
MILLER: It was fun.
SANCHEZ: Ruben, you, too.
We'll come back and we'll continue doing this. It's an issue a lot of people are talking about, and there's a lot to talk about on both sides of the equation. And I'm glad you guys brought both of your perspectives to us.
My thanks to both of you.
MILLER: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Meanwhile, Steven Seagal has some explaining to do regarding alleged slavery. Slavery? That's what it's actually being called.
And there's Brooke Baldwin. She's on the case, in fact. "The Brooke Block" is coming up in just a little bit.
All right. Stay with us.
RICK'S LIST continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Let's go to Wolf Blitzer. He's standing by.
Wolf, do you think -- I mean, there's so much on the table. There's the financial reform issue, and then there's now immigration reform possibly.
If you had to guess -- and you follow these things -- which one of those two do you think is going to get top priority from this administration?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Financial regulations, financial reform. Comprehensive immigration reform I don't think is going to get off the ground this year. They'll try after the midterm election. There will be a lot of talking about it, but I suspect it's not going to happen this year.
SANCHEZ: Is it because of -- I mean, you just saw me having a conversation about this. And you almost can't help but let it -- it just gets heated. It's one of those things that it's very sensitive for a lot of people.
That's a hard political nut to tackle, right?
BLITZER: It certainly is. When you throw around words like "amnesty" and stuff like that, it makes it so complicated.
Remember, President Bush, a Republican, tried -- he had John McCain, Lindsey Graham, both Republicans. He had Ted Kennedy. He had a lot of Democrats. They were all trying to get comprehensive immigration reform passed.
There was strong bipartisan cooperation. It failed. They couldn't do it in the Senate. And I suspect in this current political environment, where there is so much partisanship, it's probably not going to happen this year.
SANCHEZ: I think you're probably right.
Wolf Blitzer giving us his analysis, years of covering things in Washington.
Wolf, we'll be looking forward to THE SITUATION ROOM.
I want to share with you some of the stuff that we've been getting when we come back. And we're also going to be sharing something very special with you.
When we come back, you are going to watch a confrontation on live television like you've perhaps never seen, especially when you consider some of the stuff that we've got for you now on that same story.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Here it is. This is what we wanted you to see because we've gotten such reaction from it yesterday. And then we looked into it and got even more information about what's going on around the story.
You're about to watch a live television newscast. And you're going to see that there's a man who's being interviewed by a newscaster. He also has with him another woman who's a political analyst.
Watch what happens when they scuffle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDRE VISAGIE, SECRETARY-GENERAL, AWB: And you won't dare -- you won't dare interrupting me once more.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Touch me and you will be in trouble. Touch me on my studio.
VISAGIE: You touched me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Touch me on my studio, touch me on my studio --
VISAGIE: You touched me. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Touch me on my studio --
(CROSSTALK)
VISAGIE: Take away his arm. Take away his arm from me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Touch me on my studio. Touch me on my studio --
VISAGIE: I touch you on your studio
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Touch me on my studio.
VISAGIE: I touch you on my studio.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't do that.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, let's go.
VISAGIE: I am not finished with you.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Visagie, stop threatening this woman. Mr. Visagie, I'm telling you, stop it now. Would you stop it now, Mr. Visagie?
VISAGIE: I won't stop it. You try to stop me.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Visagie, why are you threatening this poor woman? What has she done to you? She's expressing her views.
VISAGIE: She's talking about the capitalist -- capitalist whites. Why do you think, then, she's poor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sorry, call security to come in, please, immediately.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: What we have found out by looking into this today and contacting our correspondent there in Johannesburg is that he is a part of an organization which is akin to the KKK here in the United States, and that another member of his organization was recently shot and killed, as a matter of fact, as a result of some of these incidents. And that others have been killed and that there is more violence and there have been murders.
Our correspondent says obviously this has some folks there concerned, especially when you consider what's going on in South Africa, the fact that they'll be holding some of the most important games, the World Cup, in just a few months. We'll stay on top of it.
When we come back, your thoughts on the immigration debate. And man, there are a lot of them.
Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
I want to share with you now some of the information that we've gotten from you. And man, I'll tell you, when we decided that we were going to do one of our very first segments on immigration given the fact that the debate may be starting up again, we expected we'd get a lot of comments, and we have.
"Undocumented workers are here for one reason. They will always get the job over citizens. Employers is the problem."
"Rick, how many Canadians are illegally entering the U.S.? Troops not the answer. Employers the problem."
Boy, that seems to be consistent.
"What's the problem with making immigrants go through legal process like so many generations of Americans?" Murray asks. Good question.
"Rick Sanchez just showed his newly-forming bald spot on national TV. He's a brave man." They actually said, "Brave, brave," right? "Mad props, Rick."
Hey, it is what it is. Besides, I'm old, I'm boring and I'm married.
Also, "I just watched your bit on racial divide. It's horrible. We have achievements as humans, but are always covered by horrible people."
And then look at this. "I don't think South Africa is ready to host a World Cup, let alone potential Olympic games because of lawlessness in that country. Is that fair?"
And finally, "How can you blame black South Africans for resorting to violence? Turning the other cheek got them nothing but more oppression."
Interesting comments about the many stories that we followed for you today. I'm glad we have a chance to talk to you all day long on right here on RICK'S LIST. It's from 3:00 to 5:00. We're glad you're here. That's Eastern Time.
Joining us now is Wolf Blitzer. Let's take you to THE SITUATION ROOM.
