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Rick's List
12 Missing in Oil Rig Explosion; American Mafia: New Charges Against Old Crime Family; Roethlisberger Suspended; Immigration Controversy in Arizona; Window Washer Rescue Operation in Seattle
Aired April 21, 2010 - 14:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Ali, this is an amazing story that we're following that's taking place in the Gulf of Mexico. There's been an explosion, as you know, on an oil rig. They're still looking for something like 12 people.
Ali, can you do me a favor? Can you come out here?
ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Maybe -- I know you have experience with this type of story. You've actually been on an oil rig.
VELSHI: I've been on one. I've been evacuated from one. I'll come over right now.
SANCHEZ: All right, we'll look forward to that and you coming over here.
In the meantime, let's do this, let's take a look at some of the other stuff that we're going to be bringing you in just a little bit.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Here's what's making THE LIST on this day --
Their name, synonymous with organized crime.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The rumors of the mafia's demise are greatly exaggerated.
SANCHEZ: The Gambinos, alleged gangsters, how prevalent still? A former mob boss joins me live.
Police stopping Hispanics, demanding their paperwork. A Catholic cardinal calls it Nazi techniques. Will it become law in Arizona? This man wrote the bill. I'll speak to him live, as another Arizona law is introduced to question the president's birth certificate. And now there's talk of boycotting the state?
Rescues in the Gulf of Mexico, and some still missing, after an oil rig explosion. Ali Velshi has logged more than a few hours on a rig. How safe are they?
Where there's smoke, there's a pot protest.
And Ben Roethlisberger, what's the punishment? Suspended. I got the lowdown.
The lists you need to know about. Who's today's most intriguing? Who's making news on Twitter? It's why I keep a list, pioneering tomorrow's cutting-edge news right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: This is -- hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez.
This is not number one on our list, but it is noteworthy, because it's a story that we have been following on this show for several weeks now.
The papers are out. This is the official form that's been released by the NFL regarding Ben Roethlisberger. You may have heard there in that open that he, in fact, has been suspended. I'm going to take you through what the NFL is saying, why they're doing what they're doing, what effect it's going to have on the team.
I'm going to be talking to several experts. I'm going to be doing that in just a moment.
But, first, this is number one on the list, 12 missing oil workers. Are they even alive? I want you to look at this picture. This is a dramatic story that's been unfolding over the better part of the last 24 hours or so.
The U.S. Coast Guard shot this about 50 miles south of Venice, Louisiana. It's right there smack dab in the Gulf of Mexico. The blast happened last night. It was about 10:00 p.m. Central, 11:00 Eastern.
Now, I want you to take a look at this as well. Look at this video that's been coming in. This is Coast Guard video, a Coast Guard chopper plucking workers from this flaming oil rig. Most got away on a boat
Altogether, we're being told 126 workers were affected. That's how many were there. And right now, 12 are listed as missing, and we hope that they're in one of those semi-submersible crafts, floating around in the Gulf of Mexico. Our fingers are crossed. We have said our prayers.
Ali Velshi's here. He knows a lot about this, because he's followed this type of story. In fact, you have actually been on one of these things.
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: Yes, we were on one just before Hurricane Katrina, so we have actually seen how they get evacuated.
SANCHEZ: Let me do this real quick, because I think we have a chance, if you want -- you want to help me out?
VELSHI: Yes. Yes.
SANCHEZ: Let's do this. Let's tag-team this thing.
We have got a chance now. Joining us by phone from New Orleans is Mike O'Berry. He's the U.S. Coast Guard, and he's been following the situation obviously having to do with the rescue.
Mike, thanks so much for being with us, sir.
SR. CHIEF PTY. OFFICER MIKE O'BERRY, U.S. COAST GUARD (via telephone): Sure. My pleasure, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Let's start with some kind of clarification, because we keep hearing reports that maybe they have found 12 workers. Maybe they haven't. Maybe they're still out there. What is the news on these 12 workers that you have been looking for over the past 24 hours?
O'BERRY: Sure.
What we have is numbers -- and in cases like this, obviously, with the number of helicopters out searching and with the -- you guys have the dramatic photos. You can obviously see how dangerous it is out there and a dynamic environment, so keeping a real accurate account sometimes gets tricky. It's almost that fog of war effect. As of right now, there's only 11 missing. We have been doing some additional counts to verify.
So, the 126, 98 -- I'm sorry -- out of the 126, 115 have been accounted for.
SANCHEZ: OK, but let me just stop you right there --
O'BERRY: Sure.
SANCHEZ: -- because I think there's a certain amount of confusion on this story.
O'BERRY: Right.
SANCHEZ: We at CNN have not reported that they have been found --
O'BERRY: Right.
SANCHEZ: -- or rescued, but I know, from checking the Internet, for example, that there are Web sites that are reporting that they, in fact, have been found and that they were floating out there on some kind of raft. You're here to tell us that's not true?
O'BERRY: That's correct.
We have seen some of those reports, too, Rick. And I'm here to say that, yes, the Coast Guard is still searching for 11 people now. And those reports, I don't know if it was -- maybe there was some wishful thinking and stuff like that, but, as of right now, the Coast Guard has not located that crew of 11 missing crew members.
SANCHEZ: Well, we thank you for that, because, look, we're not interested so much in reporting what's wrong. We just want to make sure we get it right.
O'BERRY: Yes.
SANCHEZ: So, we appreciate you coming on the air and being as clear as you can on this -- Ali.
VELSHI: This rig, last we heard, is still burning. It's still -- there's something burning in there, the gasoline, the natural gas or the oil? Is that what you understand, Mike?
O'BERRY: It is still burning. And I think a lot of that, too, is also the fuel that was on board to do the job.
You know, with a lot of the generators and stuff, a lot of it could be the diesel that's currently on board, because they were just doing drilling work. There was no real oil in there. So, most of it is kind of the fuel that was on board.
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: OK.
SANCHEZ: Can one of you guys take me the scenario of how this happens? I mean, I don't mean the scientific scenario. You don't have to go into the weeds with this. But what actually happened? The rig actually exploded?
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: Well, as Mike would know, there are always firefighting crews stationed on rigs. Most of their staff is trained. And every shift that comes on has a safety briefing.
So, safety is paramount on rigs. You very rarely hear about this sort of thing. And you don't hear about it much these days. There had to have been -- Mike, I don't know if you have come to the conclusions yet, but there had to have been an explosion. This couldn't be a fire that became bigger and became bigger, because they can contain fires generally on a rig.
SANCHEZ: And because the rig is generally so small and it's surrounded by water, there's no place to go?
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: -- common sense here.
VELSHI: They are very isolated, which is why they have to all be able to fight fires, because you can't wait for an hour-and-a-half or two for another ship or a helicopter to get there. These things are far out there.
SANCHEZ: But an explosion is not a fire. An explosion is something that happens suddenly and consumes a whole area.
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: I don't know any more details about it, but it does appear to be more of an explosion --
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you that, because I think that's the part that gets a little bit confusing.
OK, there's a fire, fine, the guys run to one side maybe where the fire isn't. They get on life rafts and they get out of there. Why was this one so all-consuming, if I can repeat that word?
O'BERRY: What was that question again, Rick? I'm sorry.
SANCHEZ: Why was this fire -- how much of an explosion was this? Could you describe it for us? And why did it seem to consume so much of the rig, where so many people weren't able to get away?
O'BERRY: Well, I think, when we got the call last night at 10:00, it was reported it was of an explosion and a fire.
And I think, as you have seen from the videos and the imagery, it obviously was a catastrophic event. And, as they were talking about before, the training these guys go through to get away, they go through a lot of this. So, as we look at the facts of the case over time, they will be able to determine exactly how this -- hopefully how this happened and we can prevent it from happening in the future.
SANCHEZ: And your job right now is to find the guys. So, you're saying there's probably 11 still out there somewhere, if they're alive?
O'BERRY: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And --
O'BERRY: And we're also -- and, Rick, we also have -- we have got teams out that are trying to stop pollution as well. So, it's kind of -- the Coast Guard's got three different things going on.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
O'BERRY: So, obviously, saving life at sea is paramount. And we have got crews that are flying to see is there pollution, how can we help prevent the environment, and we're also trying to get to the bottom of how this happened.
SANCHEZ: If you hear anything over the next -- look, we're going to be on the air here for the next couple of hours doing RICK'S LIST. If you hear anything, would you just kind of like buzz us and let us know, so we can turn it around and get you on the air right away?
O'BERRY: Absolutely. Be happy to.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Look, we're all pulling for these guys. You can't help but feel for them.
Mike O'Berry, officer with the U.S. Coast Guard, thank you, sir, for taking time to take us through this.
O'BERRY: My pleasure.
SANCHEZ: Ali, let me bring you back into this.
VELSHI: Yes.
SANCHEZ: What is the process? You've been through it. How do they rescue them?
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: Everybody on a rig knows exactly what to do if something happens. You won't be finding people scattering around. There are fire prevention people. There are firefighters on there. They will head toward putting a fire out.
Everybody else has to secure the thing, so that it doesn't end up burning like this. But there are lifeboats. They know where to go. They know how to evacuate. So..
SANCHEZ: You have been on one.
VELSHI: I have been on one of these.
SANCHEZ: This is your video.
VELSHI: This is our video. This is also in the Gulf of Mexico. This was right before Hurricane Katrina. We were actually trying to demonstrate how they shut one of these things down and evacuate. And as we landed, the course of the hurricane had shifted toward us.
So, we actually -- this was August 26, 2006. We actually had to evacuate that rig. So, that's our helicopter coming down. And everybody knew what to do. When the helicopter lands -- that's me -- it's kind of corny with that hat on -- but when the helicopter lands, there are firefighters right there, because you know, when you're on a rig, a fire can be very, very dangerous.
So, we are hoping that those guys got into a lifeboat. And if they got into a lifeboat, then somebody's going to find them.
SANCHEZ: Well, all we can do right now is just keep our fingers crossed and hope that they did and hope that they can find them.
VELSHI: Yes. SANCHEZ: And we will be updating this story over the course of the next hour and 10 minutes -- hour and 50 minutes, I should say.
Thanks, Ali.
VELSHI: All right.
SANCHEZ: Appreciate it.
All right, Arizona wants to pass a law, as you know, that a Catholic cardinal is comparing to the Nazis. He's comparing the law they want to pass in Arizona to what the Nazis did. Will this lead to a boycott of the state of Arizona? The story is growing. The guy who wrote the bill in Arizona is going to be joining me here, live, in just a little bit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The whole year. I haven't been a mother or a wife or a grandmother for the last year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Here's the rule. I think most of you know it by now, no liquids on a plane, and that includes applesauce. It includes bottles of champagne. It includes very expensive items that people watch thrown into the garbage can.
But don't tell that to this woman. This is one you have got to see for yourself, and I'm going to take you through it. It is next. This is your list, your national conversation, RICK'S LIST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back to RICK'S LIST. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Two big stories that we're following right now. First of all, there's an all-out search going in the Gulf of Mexico as per the Coast Guard who I just talked to for 11 oil rig workers who are lost. They are hoping upon hope that somehow they're out there on some kind of life raft or dinghy or submersible, something that will allow them to still be alive and that they can find them somewhere.
We hope to be able to get more information on this story. We're going to be checking with the Coast Guard for the next hour and 50 minutes or so and as we get it, we're going to share it with you.
And then I told you about the Ben Roethlisberger story. Ben Roethlisberger has been suspended from the Pittsburgh Steelers for six games, six regular season games, not exhibition games. That's important.
And I'm working through getting as much information as I can for you. In fact, let me tell you, the -- what we do is, we keep a list of all the current pieces of information coming out of Twitter. And here we got one from Greg Aiello. Greg Aiello, interestingly enough, is someone that we have worked with before. He's supposed to be a real straight-up guy, works for the NFL out of the commissioner's office.
And he just sent this tweet. We intercepted it. We want to share it with you. "The commish will review Ben's progress prior to season and consider reducing the suspension to four games."
So what I just told you is six games and I'm hearing this now for the very first time as well as I read this with you live on the air. They're now saying, the NFL commissioner's office, where Greg Aiello works, is that they could reuse it to four games if he evaluates it after his meetings with Ben Roethlisberger.
"Failure to cooperate could lead to longer suspension." So, it could go more than six weeks. Now, what are the chances that they are going to try and trade him, get rid of him? What are the Pittsburgh Steelers going to do? There are a lot of questions here, and, remember, this is not a story about Ben Roethlisberger. This is a story about the entire Pittsburgh Steelers football team now.
After all, he's the quarterback. He's the leader of the team. We're going to be all over that. We are going to have some guests. We're going to be discussing that in just a little bit.
In the meantime, the Mile High City just got, you might say, a little higher, as smoking lots of pot. You're going to see it for yourself. My goodness.
And then, is the Supreme Court about to go in a new direction? Wait until you hear what Senator Pat Leahy has to say about this. Jessica Yellin's next. She's joining me with her list, and we're going to be drilling down on this together.
This is your national conversation, RICK'S LIST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. Welcome back.
I want to show you this meeting at the White House today, six men, the president, Joe Biden, the vice president, Senate Democrats, Harry Reid and Patrick Leahy, plus Republicans Mitch McConnell and Jeff Sessions.
This is the next big battle, folks. Who will be the new Supreme Court justice to replace Justice John Paul Stevens in the United States of America? I want you to listen to Senator Leahy. He's speaking right after this meeting. I want to share this with you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D-VT), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: We have right now a very, very activist, conservative activist, Supreme Court. The number of decisions, whether it's Ledbetter, Citizens United or anything else, have been decided on a one-vote margin. I think this does not reflect the American people, but reflects more of a partisan agenda. I would hope that the president's nominee can get us back away from that and reflect the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: That's interesting.
It's time for Yellin's list, with national political correspondent Jessica Yellin.
Now, we just heard Patrick Leahy. He say the Supreme Court is carrying out an activist conservative agenda. To be fair, it's not the first time he's said that. I have heard him say that a couple times on the Sunday morning shows.
But, look, put aside the nominee for a moment. Does that remark give us a clue as to where this process may be headed, Jessica?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think we should listen to what the president said in particular. And he made a strong pitch for individual rights, including women's rights, in his comments today.
I mean, we should read that to include women's rights. And, reading between the lines, that probably means he wants a pro-choice justice that continues Stevens' legacy on the left. And, Rick, along the lines of what Senator Leahy said, we do know that Democratic senators are advising the president that he should not be too constrained by what seems to be the partisan political environment and that he can get someone to the center of the left -- someone to the left of center confirmed.
SANCHEZ: Right.
YELLIN: In other words, he's being nudged to the left by some senators.
SANCHEZ: I get it. And he's already nominated a woman.
YELLIN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And the name I'm hearing a lot is Elena Kagan. She's the solicitor general.
YELLIN: Right.
SANCHEZ: And she's a lefty, right? Or is she?
YELLIN: Well, that's a matter of debate. She's -- no, she's pro-choice and she's a defender of gay rights, but there is some pushback from people on the left who think she's not lefty enough.
SANCHEZ: Oh.
YELLIN: That's because, in her current role, she's been a vigorous defender of the administration's executive power, especially as related to terror cases. And some of those folks worry that she's just been a little too enthusiastic in that.
Also, when she ran Harvard Law School, she brought plenty of conservative faculty on board. Now, that makes her palatable to centrists and conservatives, but also worries people on the left.
SANCHEZ: I want to show you something. This is interesting, because this is one of the biggest stories that this network or really any network's ever covered. And Joe Biden was a part of this process. Remember the Clarence Thomas hearings?
Joe Biden has a role in this process, and this guy's been in this rodeo before.
(CROSSTALK)
YELLIN: I love that video.
SANCHEZ: Look at the hair.
(LAUGHTER)
YELLIN: I know.
SANCHEZ: I guess the reason I'm -- what I'm trying to ask you is, what impact -- how significant will Joe Biden be to this decision- making process?
YELLIN: He plays a big role. It's informal, but it's significant.
Last year, his legal counsel led the vetting process for Sotomayor and even sat behind her during the hearings. She's playing a similar role this time, although White House counsel Bob Bauer is leading it.
So, Vice President Biden will have input. He interviewed the four nominees, along with Obama. And you know he sat on Judiciary for decades, so he has expertise.
SANCHEZ: Yes. Yes. We saw his hair.
(LAUGHTER)
YELLIN: Yes, I know. We were all younger then, Rick. We shouldn't point fingers.
SANCHEZ: Trust me, I know.
How long -- just before you go, is this going to be weeks, months? Or are they going to let this thing drag out?
YELLIN: Before the nominee is selected? A few weeks.
SANCHEZ: Yes, before they come up with a name and announce it, and the president comes out and says this is the person I'm going to nominate, and they're standing next to him with a big smile.
YELLIN: A few weeks. I think we will know the name by June.
SANCHEZ: June?
YELLIN: That's my guess.
SANCHEZ: Perfect.
Jessica Yellin and her list, I thank you.
YELLIN: Good to see you.
SANCHEZ: Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Perhaps reflecting a new low for the Gambino family, today's charges also include interstate sex trafficking of women, including a minor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Sex trafficking of women, a minor? If you say Gambino, people think of movies and TV shows. This is the real thing, folks. I'm going to show you who these fellows are being accused, but are they -- here's the question. Are they now doing what the mob would itself frown on in the past? It's an interesting question, one we're going to be drilling down on.
Also, could police in Arizona stop anyone who doesn't look American to demand their paperwork? Well, a Catholic cardinal is comparing this to the Nazis. And now they also, in Arizona, are proposing a law that would want presidents, plural, to show their birth certificate in Arizona.
The man who wrote the bill is going to join me in just a little bit. We're so glad he's here. And he and I will be talking about this on the other side of the break.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CALLER: Hi, Rick. My name is Chris (ph) from Buffalo, New York.
I'm calling about the immigration issue. You know, I am an American of Cuban descent, not first generation. I did serve in this country for 24 years as a U.S. Army Ranger. And I believe that people don't realize that both sides of this border are struggling. They're trying to feed their children. They're trying to take care of -- most people are responsible, and they try to be responsible citizens. That's what we need to concentrate on.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back to your list, RICK'S LIST. I'm Rick Sanchez.
And there is a new piece of video that I want to show you. This is coming in from -- it's coming in from downtown Seattle. Let me tell you what's going on here. There are a couple of window washers who literally are stuck on the side of a building.
Now, what makes this even more precarious is that they're on the 35th floor of a building. You see them right there? Firefighters are now arriving at the scene, and they're going to use ropes and some kind of harness to see if they can possibly rescue them and take them out of there.
These are pictures. By the way, we want to thank our affiliate KIRO -- K-I-R-O -- for providing us these pictures and sharing them with us so that we can share them with you. There's the two firefighters. It looks like there's a lot of something blowing around.
Pardon me. I just misspoke. Those are the two fire -- those are the two window washers. The firefighters would be on top of the building, as it's being explained to me, and they're going to try and get on a rope and that harness to try and get them out. What a story.
There you see the fire trucks on the ground. And we will probably be zooming back once again to show the building. There it is. They're stuck. Their scaffolding won't move. They can't go up and down. And they're just waiting for the firefighters to come down. We're going to keep an eye on this, and obviously, as it develops, I am going to share with you the developments on that story.
Boy, what a scene.
OK. On our list of immigration stories, which we have been including every day this week, we have followed this huge immigration bill, right, that has passed in Arizona. We have had a lot of conversations about this.
The governor now has until Saturday to decide if he's (sic) going to sign this thing. If this governor -- if she does, police will be able to stop you if they think that you might be here illegally. And they can make you or force you to show papers proving that you are not or you are.
And anybody will have the right to sue any government agency that isn't enforcing immigration laws. Well, there's already a backlash over this. In fact, there's already calls now to boycott Arizona.
I have here today the man behind this immigration bill. His name is Arizona State Senator Russell Pearce.
Senator, thanks for being with us, sir. Good to have you here.
RUSSELL PEARCE (R), ARIZONA STATE SENATOR: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: This is a -- boy, this is a tough nut. And you know it's going to get a lot of criticism. What do you make of these calls for a boycott of your state? Are you worried at all about that?
PEARCE: No, not at all.
SANCHEZ: No?
PEARCE: Grijalva is an open border. His best friends are those who break into our country. He's never stood for America or American values.
Let's get right down to the point. First of all, this bill does allow police -- it does not expand police power. It doesn't give you the right to stop anybody you couldn't stop before.
SANCHEZ: No?
PEARCE: It's a federal law. If you're an alien in this country, you have got to have certain indicia with you. If you don't have it -- what is happening is -- and let's get to the bottom line. The bottom line is, we have sanctuary policies all over the United States.
SANCHEZ: Right.
PEARCE: These sanctuary policies are illegal under federal law. AUSA16441373 make them illegal. But we still have them.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But I got to stop you. I got to stop you, because you're skipping around a little bit. And let's get the first part you just said clear.
You just said that it doesn't in any way violate people's rights, only people who are illegal.
PEARCE: No. No.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: The problem is to get to the illegal people, you may have to stop somebody who you think is illegal. And once you do that --
PEARCE: No, no, no, let's clarify that right now. We have put a civil rights provision in the bill, already have it in the Arizona Constitution. It's already in the United States Constitution.
We -- and we codified it in the bill. You cannot stop somebody for race or ethnicity. You can't do it. But, secondly, you have to have a lawful stop, a reason to believe. We're just not going to turn a blind eye anymore. This doesn't expand police powers.
SANCHEZ: There you go again. (CROSSTALK)
PEARCE: We're just saying, you're not going to have policies that say you can't do it.
SANCHEZ: You were saying what the law does, and then you said, we're just not going to turn a blind eye anymore.
PEARCE: That's exactly right. It's the same issue.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: I want you to tell me that, under this law, because this is what a lot of people are asking about -- in fact, look, here's -- here's Georgetown law professor Jonathan Turley, constitutional lawyer, a very well-respected guy.
PEARCE: Yes, sure.
SANCHEZ: He has some questions. Just listen to what he has to say and then maybe answer his charge.
PEARCE: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And we will go like that.
PEARCE: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Go ahead, Rog.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN TURLEY, CONSTITUTIONAL ATTORNEY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: I don't see how you can do this. I don't see how you can have reasonable suspicion when looking at two different people and say, I bet that one doesn't have papers.
And I think that courts would have a serious problem with the implications of that, particularly as it's focused on minorities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Do you understand his point?
PEARCE: Yes. And I understand his spin. Absolutely not true.
You know, this bill does not allow you to do anything differently. Why do we have such a distrust of law enforcement? We put a gun on them. We allow them to make life-and-death decisions. We are afraid they are going to call ICE?
SANCHEZ: No, no, no. No, no, sir.
PEARCE: They have to have -- hang on. They have to have a lawful contact. They have reason to believe. Nobody is authorizing them to do anything they can't do. All we're saying is that they can enforce the law. And states have inherent authority.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But -- and I understand that. And I respect your argument and very, very much understand what you're trying to say.
PEARCE: Well --
SANCHEZ: The problem is, the Constitution essentially says, in order to get to the bad guy, you can't question three good guys out of the blue --
PEARCE: I agree.
SANCHEZ: -- because they happen to have skin that's darker than the other --
PEARCE: I agree.
SANCHEZ: -- four in front of them.
PEARCE: I agree. Illegal is not a race. It's a crime. Let's get to the bottom line.
The race-pushing pundits, you know, shame on them. This has nothing to do with that. They love this business. It's like calling you names. I have an article in 1992 from Alfredo Gutierrez, a great open border guy, that calls everybody a racist. They said, do you really believe that? He said, no, but it works.
I'm tiring of the name calling. We're going to get to the facts. We're going to let our policemen enforce the law.
SANCHEZ: I do not believe that you're a racist nor have I mentioned it in any way.
PEARCE: I know you haven't. That's not my --
SANCHEZ: OK. So, just to be straight --
PEARCE: Right.
SANCHEZ: -- the argument and this is where you need to explain it to Americans --
PEARCE: Yes, sir.
SANCHEZ: -- who have questions about this. Look, they all are sitting here and listening to you and saying, the guy's right. There are too many people who are in our country illegally and we have got to do something about it.
But when you try and do something about it and people say, be careful, you might be violates the constitution of others who are here illegal in the process of finding the people that are illegal, and I'm telling you how do you get around not stopping all the people who look illegal?
PEARCE: Because you can't do that. You can't do it by looks. We put it in the bill. It says you cannot use race and ethnicity as an issue. We saw you got to have a lawful stop, and like any other crime, reason to believe, and then --
SANCHEZ: So, in other words, so they had to have committed another crime?
PEARCE: Well --
SANCHEZ: You are stopping them --
PEARCE: A traffic stop or something. Not all traffic in Arizona is a crime. It's a civil violation.
SANCHEZ: Right. I get your drift.
PEARCE: Yes, yes.
SANCHEZ: So, in other words, it will only apply to people who have possibly committed a crime or a violation of some sort and the process --
PEARCE: A lawful stop.
SANCHEZ: -- and in the process you're allowed to ask them for identification and then possibly?
PEARCE: Yes. In fact, it's consistent and any constitutional attorney should know this, not only consistent with the law, it's consistent with the 2005 Supreme Court decision, a nine-zero, and that alone is rather a unique thing, but the nine-zero decision of 2005, you know, the Supreme Court slapped down a ninth circuit court opinion that tried to assert the 4th and the 14th amendment and they said it's silly.
You can ask about the immigration status as you ask their name and date of birth and their address. All we're saying you have a right to ask when you have a legitimate contact.
They would love to have you think that this is some extreme -- we're just taking the handcuffs. I love handcuffs. I've been in law enforcement most of my life. I'm going to take them off of law enforcement and I'm going to put them on the bad guys. Take them off law enforcement and let them do their job.
Officer Zerfoli (ph) was killed, Martin was killed, Atkins was killed, Figueroa was killed, Rob France was just killed on the border. When does this stop and we stand up for Americans?
SANCHEZ: I understand, but to be fair as well, there are people --
PEARCE: And I'm trying to be fair.
SANCHEZ: -- there are police officers that are killed by all kinds of suspects and all kinds of colors and makes, and let's not turn it into an argument that -- but I want to go beyond that.
PEARCE: That's my point is we have a very diverse makeup in our law enforcement. They are not trying to violate people's rights. They are doing their jobs.
SANCHEZ: I understand. Let me address the complaints that we are getting. I had a guy on the show yesterday, Jim Wallace. Do you know Jim Wallace?
PEARCE: No.
SANCHEZ: He's the president of Sojourners. He has a problem with the bill, how we're treating the least among us. And I think we have the sound bite.
PEARCE: It's not true.
SANCHEZ: Roger, do we have the sound bite? I want him to have his say and then you can respond. Go ahead, Roger, hit that, will you?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM WALLIS, PRESIDENT, SOJOURNERS: This really is a mistake. And actually they say, Rick, you can harbor or transport undocumented people, churches harbor and transport vulnerable people all the time. This law will force us to disobey the gospel, and I'm telling you, we are not going to comply.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: So, you know, he basically just said that he will disobey your law because it's against god's laws. What do you say to folks like that?
PEARCE: That's not true. Even the savior admitted when Rome is Rome, you follow the law. You give to Caesar what is Caesar's.
The point is they continue to spin. They are sanctuary movements and organizations. They fill the pews and the tithes with folks who are here illegally. And so it's simply a form of corruption. They're ignoring the law for their personal purposes. That's sad. We're a nation of laws and we must enforce the laws.
This bill simply allows law enforcement to enforce the law. How many more billions in costs and how many more lives have to be lost? I had a hearing with the all the rangers on the border. Their homes are broken in, their livestock is shot, the dogs are shot, their windows are boarded you.
SANCHEZ: There's no question if you concentrate on the problems on the border it's an issue -- PEARCE: It's not in the boarders, it's in the cities. Phoenix is number two in the world in kidnappings.
SANCHEZ: You've got a lot to say, and I'd love to have you back. Will you come back?
PEARCE: I'd love to come back, and I'll go through the bill and the issues line by line. So far 90 percent of police officers in the state of Arizona have endorsed this bill, saying, please, let me do my job.
SANCHEZ: This is good, because this is the type of discussion that I think a lot of Americans need to hear. And it's cogent and it's respectful, and somehow we need some kind, it seems, of immigration reform that will settle so many of these loose ends.
PEARCE: Yes.
SANCHEZ: My thanks to you, sir. Senator, thank you, sir, for coming on.
PEARCE: Thank you. God bless you, god bless America.
SANCHEZ: All righty, sir.
Take a look at this situation out in Seattle right now. What a story this is, huh? There are some window washers stuck on the 36th floor of a building and they somehow can't seem to un-stick the apparatus there, the scaffolding, so now they're going to put a couple of firefighters in harnesses to try to rescue them.
And I'm being told by Angie Massie, my executive producer, that she's just booked an interview with the Seattle officials who are working on the scene, and so you'll hear it live as it happens. Boy, Angie, you are good.
We'll be right back. This is your list, your national conversation, RICK'S LIST. Look at Cairo's picture.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
I want to take you back now to the story that I told you about just a little while ago, this is in downtown Seattle. Pictures are being provided by Cairo. And there are two firefighters who are stuck on some scaffolding, apparently there's some kind of electronical problem that is not allowing them to move.
They're literally in a cloud, folks, look at that. And firefighters have now arrived at the scene and they are trying to see if they can somehow use a rope and levers and some harnesses to get them out of there.
And while we watch this unfold, I want to bring in Dana Vanderhouwen, she's with Seattle -- are you with PIO, are you with public information?
DANA VANDERHOUWEN, PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER, SEATTLE FIRE DEPT. (via telephone): Yes, that's right, Public Information officer for Seattle fire.
SANCHEZ: Thanks, Dana, for joining us. You know, this is the kind of story that viewers get glued to, because we all have our fears, right? And, I mean, we can all imagine ourselves stuck on the 36th floor wondering if we're going to fall, and it's just human drama. Can you take us through how this happened, what happened, and what you're doing?
VANDERHOUWEN: Well, we got a call around 11:49 our time that there are two window washers stuck on the top of a building, the Sheraton hotel here in downtown Seattle.
And we dispatched the rope rescue. We have our technical rescue team and other additional firefighters on the scene here. And they went up to the roof of the building and were able to make contact -- make contact with the two window washers from the roof. They're actually only about two stories below the top of the building here.
At this point we have -- we did send one firefighter down in a -- in a rescue harness. He went down --
SANCHEZ: Dana, Dana, I'm just going to stop you just for a moment, just to give a little background information.
VANDERHOUWEN: Sure.
SANCHEZ: A little programming not to our viewers -- the pictures we're getting now are live pictures. So as you're describing this, I'll tell you what we're seeing in the picture, and then you can tell me if that fits the scenario that you understand is going on.
VANDERHOUWEN: OK.
SANCHEZ: First of all, in the picture I'm looking at now, in an adjacent building I see what appears to be several firefighters or rescue officials.
VANDERHOUWEN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And then on top of the building, I now see three firefighters or rescue officials. It looks like they're using ropes to shimmy their ways down the building.
VANDERHOUWEN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Or rappelling their way down the building.
VANDERHOUWEN: Yes, that's exactly it. It sounds like this building has kind of a pointy roof, so all the firefighters on the rescue team, the technical rescue team that went to the top are roped in and shimmied down sort of to the edge of the building. And then one firefighter is going down onto the platform where these window washers are stuck. They actually just got one person off, and they've just got another firefighter over the edge.
And what they're doing is putting a rescue harness on the window washers and then using the ropes to pull the -- pull the firefighter and the window washer back up off of that platform.
SANCHEZ: Well done. It looks like as we're watching this -- and we've got a pretty good picture of this now, a pretty good video -- one of the firefighters, who has scaffold -- or who has rappelled down the side of the building, or shimmy, as you and I were saying, has just made contact with one of the guys stuck on the scaffolding, and it looks like he's going to tie him up and get him out of there.
Is he going to do, like, a piggyback thing to get him out of there, is that it?
VANDERHOUWEN: They have a rescue harness, and then the firefighter is also harnessed in and the other firefighters who are above will pull them all back up. But the firefighter who is there will be connected to the window washer the entire time.
And just, you know, one other thing to let you know, it sounds like both of these window washers are fine. They're uninjured. They were just stuck and unable to move their platform.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, easy for you to say. Is this -- look, for us, you know, we've never been in a situation like this, so it looks like it's crazy dangerous to us. How dangerous is this? I mean, they're sitting there on the 36th floor of a building rappelling down with harnesses and ropes? No thanks.
How much instruction do they do? Take us through this process a little bit, if you would.
VANDERHOUWEN: Our technical rescue teams are highly trained with these types of rescues. They do building rescues and confined spaces and all kind of high angle and complicated rescues. So, they're very well-trained.
And this is not something that happens all the time, but it does happen that they need to get somebody out of a high up or a complicated spot, and they train enough so that they definitely know what to do and can remain calm in those situations.
SANCHEZ: Wow. I want to talk to one of those guys tomorrow. Can you set that up for us, the guys --
VANDERHOUWEN: We can work on that, sure.
SANCHEZ: Can do you that?
VANDERHOUWEN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: I would love to be able to get a -- you know, bird's- eye view or a personal view, I suppose I should say, of what it's like to actually do something like that, because I'm looking at the picture and I'm just fascinated by it that they would be able to go down there and tie the guy and now able to get him out.
All right, looks like -- is it going to take a long time for him to tie him up and then pull him up? Do they pull him up with levees from the top?
VANDERHOUWEN: They have some sort of rope system set up there, I don't know the exact details on what it is. But they were able to get the other person out of there in just a few minutes. So hopefully we won't be here much longer.
SANCHEZ: All right, I'm going to go ahead and get a commercial in.
VANDERHOUWEN: OK.
SANCHEZ: And when the actual action scene happens and they start to get the guy out of there, we'll -- we'll share it with the viewers. Are they moving him up now?
Let's do this, let's get a break in. When we come back, we'll show you the whole thing. We'll be right back. Thanks so much, Dana.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Once in a while you get a dramatic piece of video that you want to be able to show, and there it is. We're just starting to get the -- that's him. Yes, they got the second window washer out. He is being, like, piggybacked out. He's the one right there, in front of the guy with the white helmet right there, see.
They're walking out, and he's been stuck on the 36th floor on that -- on that harness, and now they're finally able to walk him out of there -- on the scaffolding, I should have said. I'm watching this with all of you, just making sure they get him to the very top of the building, and then, I guess, he's safe and sound.
Boy, talk about a heroic effort by the firefighters to rappel down the building and make it down, and especially on the shape of the roof, and they're finally able to get him out there.
All right, there's the story. I'm glad we were able to bring it to you.
Now, let me tell you about this. How stringent are they getting in Arizona? Now they want presidents, plural, to show their birth certificates. You wonder who they're aiming that one at?
Well, many religious figures are coming out today and saying they're opposed to what they're trying to do in Arizona. You heard me speak to the man who's supporting the bill just a little while ago, who proposed the bill. Now, here, next to me, is a Catholic bishop, who's also going to take us through this conversation and his perspective on what they're doing in Arizona and whether he believes that this is possibly legal, but ungodly. That's what I want you to address for us, if you would, bishop. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
We're following up on a conversation that people are having all over the country, and we want to do it as responsibly, as cogent, and as respectfully as possible.
You watched me just moments ago when I was doing an interview with one of the senators, the state senators, who was proposing the state law in Arizona. Joining me now is Bishop Luis Zarama of the archdiocese of Atlanta who has come in here and is good enough to take us through this.
I have a lot of material in front of me, but let me just cut to the chase with you. If there's a law that says that you are not allowed to harbor someone because the law says you can't, but god's law seems to say or make you feel like you should, which one do you obey?
BISHOP LUIS ZARAMA, ARCHDIOCESE OF ATLANTA: I think I have my moral obligation, and that is what in the way that I need to respond. How I respond to the needs of the people.
SANCHEZ: So if the law says -- if you know that these people are illegal immigrants in the United States and they come to your church, even if you know that they're illegal immigrants, you will serve them, help them, and worship to them.
ZARAMA: They are our people. They are coming to our church. They are searching for god. They are not searching for legal papers. They are coming to worship god. They are coming to be open to express their faith.
SANCHEZ: But this law says if you know they are there, if you move them, transport them, shelter them, harbor them in any way, you are breaking the law.
ZARAMA: We are serving them. If serving the people is breaking the law, well --
SANCHEZ: Then so be it?
ZARAMA: So be it.
SANCHEZ: But hold on a minute, if you would. Wouldn't you consider if someone has committed a crime, just because you're a priest, in your case, a bishop, if someone has committed a serious crime, isn't it your obligation to turn them in? Someone who is a murderer, for example, taking it to reduction ad absurdum (ph). ZARAMA: There are specific cases. You are talking about a specific case. But the law is talking about a broad -- is reaching everybody who is illegal here, who are illegal here.
SANCHEZ: So it's too broad.
ZARAMA: It's too broad in this case. And how we can -- we cannot make a difference to the people who are with papers or not when they are coming to worship. We cannot ask for I.D. to show us if you are legal or not to come and worship with us.
SANCHEZ: As a Catholic bishop, would you be willing to go to jail to protect the rights of some of your parishioners who you say need you to service them?
ZARAMA: I love my parishioners and I'm here to help them. Whatever that means, I am willing to do what I need to do to serve them.
SANCHEZ: What do you make of the law in Arizona? From what you've read, from what you've seen, what is your general impression of it? Where do you think it comes from?
ZARAMA: For me, I don't understand why we have this persecution, because for me it's like a persecution.
SANCHEZ: You say it a persecution. They say they're trying to protect our borders.
ZARAMA: Why have these people here for many, many years and we have using them in different areas of our country -- construction, agriculture, all of that. We knew that. And why now after what we used them, we are against them?
SANCHEZ: Why? Why do you think it is?
ZARAMA: We are blaming them, or I don't know what is the reason who is behind this.
SANCHEZ: But you understand that we have a need for some type of immigration reform?
ZARAMA: That is true.
SANCHEZ: Comprehensive.
ZARAMA: Comprehensive, yes. And the church has been working with that and looking for something that will help, but not persecute the people.
SANCHEZ: Thank you so much, sir, for coming in, Bishop Luis Zarama of the archdiocese of Atlanta. Thank you for coming in and explaining it. We certainly appreciate that, sir.
ZARAMA: Thanks so much.
SANCHEZ: Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YOUNES ABDULLAH MOHAMMED, REVOLUTION MUSLIM: The Koran says very clearly in Arabic language (SPEAKING ARABIC). This means terrorize them. It's a command from Allah. (END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Someone might kill the creators of "South Park"? It's a cartoon. I'll tell you why.
ZARAMA: And Ben Roethlisberger learns his fate with the NFL. Will he play or won't he? And what are you saying about that? That's coming up in just a little bit. This is your national conversation, your list, RICK'S LIST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Time for the closing bell, and Poppy Harlow, this is her turf. She's joining me with the CNN money list. Poppy, you and I talked about this potentially happening. GM paid taxpayers back. Say hallelujah.
HARLOW: Hallelujah, right? Five years ahead of schedule, topping my list today for sure -- $6.7 billion in full has been paid back to U.S. and Canadian taxpayers by General Motors. The CEO Ed Whitaker saying, quote, "This is the new pace at GM, Rick. This is great news."
But I have to amend that statement by telling you that we, the U.S. taxpayer, still have more than $40 billion invested in General Motors. Remember, we now own 60 percent of that company. We have to wait for GM to IPO, and then we will know if we made any money on that.
Taking a look at the closing numbers, we are up, it looks, just a bit, Rick, ahead of the closing bell on Wall Street, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Just quick numbers also. The volcano ash disruption, how big?
HARLOW: Huge losses for the airline industry.
SANCHEZ: Wow.
HARLOW: One of the main sectors that tracks that says a $1.7 billion loss over just the last six days, Rick, for that industry. That is going to take them years to recover, Rick.
SANCHEZ: OK. Thanks so much. We'll be looking at the numbers in a bit.
Stay there, because I'm about to come back and I'm going to talk to a former mob boss about the huge Gambino takedown in America. How big is the mafia still in America? It's part of our conversation. Stay right there. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
