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Rick's List
Arizona's Immigration Battle; Pentagon Boots Reverend Graham
Aired April 23, 2010 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: All right. We have got some news that is developing as we speak.
And, first thing, Roger, could you do me a favor? I want to go to that -- I want -- I want to go to that shot of the -- of the folks that are protesting right now in Arizona. I want to set this thing up as big as I can, because I think this is the kind of story that is obviously going to reverberate all over the country.
These are young people who have been leaving high schools, at least four or five of them. Some of them are from as far away as L.A. They're there in Arizona. There they are walking now with the American flag.
They're angry about a state law that's being proposed there in Arizona. The -- what the state law wants to do is really crack down on illegal immigrants. It would give police the opportunity to question people who they believe may be illegally in the United States.
Now, there are questions as to how the law is written, because it -- it -- there are some constitutional lawyers who say it may violate the Constitution by allowing police to search people who have done nothing wrong, other than possibly looking like an illegal immigrant.
So, that's where this thing gets a little bit sticky. Here's what -- here's what the news is. The governor's probably going to be signing this thing within the next 24 hours. Heck, she may sign this in the next 20 minutes, for all we know, because she's going to be coming out.
Our correspondent Casey Wian is standing by. He's there in -- in -- are you -- are you in Sacramento? Are you -- pardon me. Where are you, Casey?
(LAUGHTER)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I -- I'm actually in Phoenix, Arizona...
SANCHEZ: You are in Phoenix. All right.
WIAN: ... about two miles away from -- from -- yes, from the -- from the state capitol.
Of course, as you mentioned, those protests have been going on for the last several days out in front of the state capitol. And we understand that some of those protesters are heading this way now to another government building about two miles away.
Behind me, you can see final preparations going on for the announcement that Arizonans and others around the country have been waiting for all week. Governor Jan Brewer is going to make her announcement as to what action she's going to take -- or not take -- related to Arizona Senate Bill 1070, which, as you mentioned, would allow police officers -- in fact, require police officers in many cases -- to inquire about the status of criminal suspects and others they encounter...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
WIAN: ... during the law enforcement actions.
We don't know what the governor is going to do.
My producer, Linda Roth (ph), earlier saw -- excuse me.
(LAUGHTER)
WIAN: Linda Hall (ph) saw a pen on that table behind me. That...
SANCHEZ: Oh, really?
WIAN: ... pen has now been removed. Yes, we don't know if that pen is going to be used to sign the bill, veto the bill, if it -- if it's just a prop. But...
SANCHEZ: You're the second reporter...
WIAN: ... that's one that's getting...
SANCHEZ: You're -- you're...
WIAN: ... a little bit of a buzz around here.
SANCHEZ: You're the second reporter I have talked to who has told me they have absolutely no clue what this -- I mean, this governor hasn't shown her hand even a little bit?
WIAN: No, she really hasn't.
She spoke to a Latino business group last night and said that what she is going to do is what is going to be best for all people in Arizona. She's given...
SANCHEZ: And...
WIAN: ... a couple of different mixed signals during the week. But she really hasn't tipped her hand.
The one thing that is clearly at play here is the fact that this governor, she replaced former Governor Janet Napolitano.
SANCHEZ: Huh.
WIAN: She's never actually been elected as governor of the state of Arizona.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
WIAN: So, politics are in play here. She's running for Arizona.
SANCHEZ: What about -- what about...
WIAN: There is poll that is out this week.
Let me just finish, Rick.
There was a poll out this week that showed that most people in this state actually support this bill.
SANCHEZ: What about the possibility that she could say, you know what, I got to make sure lawyers look at this thing, because, you know, it's a very -- look, I got it. Case, it's right here. I have been reading it for the last hour or so.
I mean, not that I'm a lawyer or anything, but the -- part of this is really unclear as to whether it's actually giving them what people say it's giving them or not.
I wonder if she might have the right to say, look, I'm not ready to sign this thing until I fully get it. And I'm going to make sure it's vetted legally.
Any possibility that could happen?
WIAN: And that -- that -- that's absolutely what a lot of people are talking about. She could do nothing, allow the bill to become law. Then the opponents of this bill have promised that there will be legal challenges.
The Obama administration this morning, as I believe you may have reported, said that they're going to have their officials look at the civil rights implications of this legislation. So, that could be sort of a middle ground she may strike.
She may say: "I'm not going to veto the will of the state lawmakers of Arizona. But we want the courts to decide whether this legislation is legal. So, I'm going to let it go into law without signing it, and just see what the courts decide."
SANCHEZ: All right, Case, hang by.
Let's see what develops on this thing.
In the meantime, look at this tweet that we got just -- boy, everybody's jumping on this story. It is being followed all over the country. And a lot of people are -- are very passionate about this story on both sides.
"RickSanchezCNN.com, have you ever forgotten your wallet at home?"
Yes.
"The new Arizona law would throw you in jail for it."
Well, interesting perspective. That's coming from -- what is that, Angie? I can't read it. National Immigration Forum.
Bob Dane is with Fair, the Federal -- the Federation for American Immigration Reform.
Bob, how are you?
BOB DANE, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: Hi, Rick. Good to be with you. Big story.
We certainly hope that Jan Brewer signs this bill. And 70 percent of Arizonans are hoping she signs it as well.
SANCHEZ: Have you -- you know, hey, Bob, I have been reading this thing. And I'm not sure it does what people are saying it does. I have got a couple of questions.
First of all -- hey, by the way, are you a lawyer?
DANE: No, I'm not.
SANCHEZ: You're not. But you're familiar with this law, right? You guys helped them write it.
DANE: We're very familiar with this law.
And -- and -- and, Rick, look, this is -- this is important to say that this is not a knee-jerk reaction by Arizona. This has been years of careful legal analysis.
SANCHEZ: Uh-huh.
DANE: It has been decades of illegal immigration, escalating violence. And it has been decades of Arizonans pleading for some relief. So...
SANCHEZ: But you don't want to -- but you don't want to violate people's constitutional rights. I mean, if -- if a bunch of lawyers look at this thing and they say, but wait a minute. In the -- if -- if -- Bob, if, in the process of trying to get somebody who you believe is an illegal immigrant, you know, you are knocking down the door or violating the rights of somebody who is a legal citizen and happens to just have like dark skin or look like he's an illegal immigrant, you're kind of violating their rights, aren't you?
DANE: Well, you would be if that were the case. Look...
SANCHEZ: Yes, that was the question. I -- I -- that was not an accusation.
(LAUGHTER)
DANE: Yes. No, no. This bill has nothing -- profiling is not in the picture on this bill.
First of all, it's important to know -- and I want to talk about, clarify the record on what's in this bill and what's not. There's a...
SANCHEZ: Good.
DANE: ... massive, massive misinformation campaign about this.
But, in order to understand it, we have to understand why the bill is, what the framework is. Arizona Bill 1070 makes attrition through enforcement the state policy.
SANCHEZ: Mm-hmm.
DANE: Attrition through enforcement basically means that you make it tough to work and to live in Arizona if you have no legal right to be there.
SANCHEZ: Right.
DANE: And the benefit of that is that you -- illegal aliens residing in the state will leave voluntarily, at no cost to the American -- to the Arizona taxpayers.
SANCHEZ: Mm-hmm.
DANE: And it creates a powerful disincentive to come into the state in the first place.
So, the whole law is predicated on attrition through enforcement that is a fair, practical, effective approach in Arizona. It is also a fair, practical, effective approach that this administration, this president, ought to be considering nationwide.
SANCHEZ: I have spent a better part of the last couple of days going through your Web site, OK? I spend a lot of time on your Web site. I follow your organization. I think FAIR...
DANE: There's a lot on there.
SANCHEZ: Yes. No, I know. You guys -- you guys do a good job. It's a very good Web site and you can learn a lot about it
But one of the questions -- and I think you tackle this on your Web site, but I want you to share your perspective on this, OK, because there are people watching us right now and say -- who -- who would say to you guys at FAIR, why are you going after the little guy? Why are you going after the immigrant, when it's -- it's -- it's corporations who give them jobs, in some cases, allegations that they're recruited to come into the United States?
The government gives them a tax I.D., so they can work here. I mean, we have set up an entire system to get these folks over here, and then, when they get here, live here for a while, we go after and attack them.
Shouldn't the emphasis -- and again, it's a question, not an accusation -- shouldn't the emphasis be on going after those employees and going after the government to fix the damn system?
DANE: Absolutely.
Rick, we -- we have -- we have contradictory signs on the border. One says, help wanted, and the other says, keep out.
(LAUGHTER)
DANE: So, we would and we are going after employers who are hiring illegal workers. But this is not an either/or proposition.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
DANE: Look, Rick, let's say you're a police officer.
SANCHEZ: Uh-huh.
DANE: As -- as a matter of fact, I will make you Sergeant Sanchez.
(LAUGHTER)
DANE: All right?
SANCHEZ: My brother's a cop, but go on.
DANE: So, it's 2:00 in the morning. You're munching on a -- a doughnut and a cup of coffee, and you're in Arizona.
SANCHEZ: Right.
DANE: And a van speeds by.
SANCHEZ: Right.
DANE: And you go up to that van, you pull it over, and there's 14 people in the van.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
DANE: So, you go -- go through a universal verification process. You ask for driver's licenses.
SANCHEZ: Mm-hmm.
DANE: Nobody has one. You ask for Social Security numbers. No one has one.
SANCHEZ: Right.
DANE: There's no registration for the vehicle. No one speaks English. And, at best, somebody gives you a Gold's Gym card. Now, at that point, Sergeant Sanchez...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
DANE: ... common sense and public safety would dictate that, hey, maybe we ought to check about immigration status.
SANCHEZ: Well, but -- yes, but -- but -- but...
DANE: This law allows the officer after...
SANCHEZ: But...
DANE: ... they have gone through a series of mechanical, lawful conduct and reasonable suspicion steps, to finally ask about immigration.
SANCHEZ: But that's where you -- Bob, that -- Bob, just stop. That's where you nailed it. There was a reasonable suspicion because they saw a van speeding by, or he saw -- Sergeant Sanchez -- that would be me -- saw a van speeding by, assuming that person may be breaking the law. Now I have the right to stop that person, and, if, in the process of that stop, I see another violation, like perhaps the fact that they're here illegally, then I could question them.
That's the crux of the matter. Is that the way it's going to work, or is it a cop who just happens to be walking by the sidewalk, goes by a guy who is very dark-skinned and says, I think he may be an illegal alien; let me ask him?
That's -- that's...
DANE: Well...
SANCHEZ: That's what people are afraid it could turn into.
DANE: Well, if -- if you listen to the hysteria being whipped up by the open-borders, massive-amnesty, no-enforcement crowd, this is all about what you just said.
If you take a look at the bill -- it sounds like you have read most of it -- it...
SANCHEZ: Mm-hmm.
DANE: ... passes the legal litmus test.
Look, this Arizona 1070, here's -- here's what it actually does and doesn't do. It does not give police officers any additional power to stop or to pull you over. They have to abide by legal, lawful conduct.
SANCHEZ: OK.
DANE: In other words, you have to, you know, be speeding or reckless driving, or something like that.
SANCHEZ: Yes. Well, it says here for any lawful contact -- where's my glasses?
DANE: That's right.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: For any lawful contact made by a -- by a law enforcement officer, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person.
So, I imagine, when they say any lawful contact, they're saying you have to have stopped someone, for example, like your example of the speeding white van, right?
DANE: Right. Police officers...
SANCHEZ: OK.
DANE: ... are not going to do...
SANCHEZ: That's clear.
DANE: ... anything they that didn't already do.
SANCHEZ: That's clear.
DANE: Plus, they are not going to immediately ask for immigration papers. They're -- they're simply going to go through a universal verification process...
SANCHEZ: I got it. I got it.
DANE: ... which, by definition, is non-discriminatory.
(LAUGHTER)
DANE: May I see your driver's license? May I see your registration.
SANCHEZ: You told us that already, Bob. That's enough.
DANE: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
DANE: And then, only after that, only after they have done all of that, and only if they have reasonable suspicion, will they ask about immigration status.
SANCHEZ: I got it.
DANE: That's fair, practicable, effective. It is so what...
SANCHEZ: Bob...
DANE: ... Arizona needs.
SANCHEZ: Bob, that's a good conversation we just had. DANE: Thank you, Rick.
SANCHEZ: I'm glad -- I'm glad you -- you came on. And I appreciate your time.
DANE: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Bob is with FAIR.
And we will continue to reach out to them. And we're not going to stop covering this. And we expect the governor is going to be coming out any minute. And she's -- we don't know what she's going to do. Right now, nobody knows what she's going to do.
Take a look at this controversy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANKLIN GRAHAM, SAMARITAN'S PURSE: I love the people of Islam. I -- I just -- the religion is what I have the problem with. I don't like the way they treat women, the way they treat minorities. I just find it horrific.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: OK. Franklin Graham, all right, son of Billy Graham, he makes these comments. He gets taken off, pulled off the Pentagon's list. That story is coming up in just a little bit. I'm going to take you through it.
Also, from Baghdad, the latest in a series of bombings that killed dozens of people. Who is being targeted? Who is behind the attack? Wait until you see this video -- scary to look at.
And a reminder: We're standing by. Oh, we have got the first pictures from inside. The governor is going to be coming out there any moment. She is -- this is a huge story. The governor is going to decide whether she's going to sign this bill or not, or tell us that she's not going to sign the bill. We don't know at this point.
It's a bit of a suspense. This is your national conversation. This is your list. This is RICK'S LIST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Rick. This is Tony (ph) from Baltimore.
I think this immigration stuff in Arizona, I think they should pass a law that immigration be checked. Here in D.C., I know about the Eastern Shore, Virginia. They come over here. They make babies, and they're stuck here. They do what they want to do. They hit people in their cars and they run in a field and get away. They make bad accident cases and hurt people and they get away with it. I think we ought to make a -- a law that immigration be checked at random. (END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: What you just heard...
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: ... by the way, is called a hasty generalization.
But, nonetheless, those are the types of opinions that people are sharing all over the -- look, folks, this thing in Arizona is so heated, I -- look at this tweet I -- look at the Twitter board, OK?
See if you can get -- can anybody get a shot of the Twitter board? You don't have a camera on it? No, no, no, not that one, the other one, the -- the -- the one from regular folks. Oh, you don't -- all right. I will read it to you, because it's cool.
The big whale is out. And it says, "Twitter is over capacity," which...
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: ... usually tells you that a story is so hot that everybody out there is getting in.
I have seen already 1,000 people trying to tweet in just like the last half-hour. Everybody has something to say about this story on both sides. They're passionate. And now we're filled with the expectation of what the governor of Arizona is going to come out and tell us in a little bit.
Show that picture, Roger, if you possibly would. Here is Phoenix. Yes, and -- and, by the way, a little while ago, I referred to Casey Wian, and I said that he was in Sacramento. Why? Because Casey works out of our California bureau, I think our L.A. bureau, and I was thinking he was in the -- I was thinking he was in the -- in the capital of California.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Casey, obviously, has moved to Arizona. He's following that story for us. We just lost that picture. We're expecting to get the governor out at any moment now. She's going to be saying something about whether she's going to sign the bill or not sign the bill.
Stay there. All right. All right. There's that shot again. All right? As soon as we see the governor come out, we're going to be taking you there. You will see it live right here on CNN.
But, while we wait for the governor, there's this piece of video that I need to share with you, because this is as cool a piece of video as I have seen in a long time. It's about a police officer and a dog. Those are the two characters. That's all you need to do to understand this story.
Hit it, Rog. There's a police officer. He's driving in Alaska when he sees the dog. It almost looks like the dog is telling him, "Follow me, follow me." So, the officer follows him. He's in his vehicle. The dog continues. From time to time, it almost even looks like the dog is, like, stopping to make sure that the cop is still behind him, as if the dog is saying: "You really need to stay on my tail. I have something very important that I need to show you."
The dog's name is Buddy, by the way. And Buddy really seems to be trying to say something to this officer. So, he keeps going. And he runs, and, finally, he gets to another road, and he makes a left. Will the follow -- will officer follow? He does.
The officer says: "There's something going on here. By the way this dog is behaving, it almost appears to me that I am being led to something."
But why would you follow a dog? I mean, it's not like it's a person, right? I mean, it's a dog. But something's going on here, folks. This is one of those stories. Finally, the officer sees that, but says, "No, I'm going to go ahead and follow" -- look at that. You see that? A house on fire.
And, if it hadn't been for the dog, rescue officials wouldn't have found it as soon as they did. Is that not one hell of a story?
I got goose bumps just telling it.
All right, the governor's going to be coming out any moment. We're going to sharing with you what she says. Let's get a break in as soon as they can.
Oh, they're checking the microphone. Casey is standing by as well. I think I just saw a little bit of Casey there a little while ago. Let's get a break in. And we will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Whoa. The governor is going to be coming out and she's going to be announcing whether she's going to sign this thing after all. The president talked about it today.
Show them real quick inside. All right, that's what it looks like in -- inside. That's Casey Wian, who is following -- there you see the top of Casey's head...
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: ... who is following that story for us.
Now go to the Twitter board, if we possibly can. I want to show you something, right? That's inside. Now let me show you what's going on outside. You see this? This is somebody there in Arizona. He just sent me this tweet. "Minutes away from Governor Brewer's decision in Arizona. The crowd outside of the capitol is huge." He sends us a Twitpic. And there it is. Look at the size of that. Those are all the people who are outside apparently waiting to hear what the governor's going to say.
You tell me this isn't a story that's causing a lot of people to get heated up and excited in Arizona and all over the country, actually.
All right, let me get this story in as well. This is interesting. We know that the State Department does diplomacy and the Defense Department fights wars, but I want to tell you, the Pentagon brass had to walk through a very diplomatic mine field in the case of Christian evangelist Franklin Graham.
Remember, our uniformed men and women are fighting wars in Muslim lands. They're fighting in Muslim lands. Franklin Graham is a powerful preacher who said disparaging things about Islam. And now the Army has decided to disinvite Graham from a prayer service next month. That's pretty much where it stands.
Barbara Starr is following the story for us. She's talked to Reverend Graham. And, apparently, he's not backing down. Let's -- let's take a listen to this first.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAHAM: Well, Barbara, I -- I have -- I stand by, of course, what I have said. I -- I love the people of Islam. I -- I just -- the religion is what I have the problem with.
I don't like the way they treat women, the way they treat minorities. I just find it horrific. But, yet, we are a -- a nation of many races and cultures and represent many religions.
But, yet, the majority religion of this nation by far is the Christian faith, about 89 percent. So, I -- I certainly disagree with Islam, but I love the -- the people of Islam. And I certainly identify with them.
A lot of my work, Barbara, is in the Middle East and -- and in Arab countries, Arab countries. And we have been working there for -- I have been involved there for 50 years. And it's a part of the world I love very much. And I understand it. But, yet, I certainly disagree with their teaching.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Wow. Talk about a sticky situation.
And -- and, you know, I remember McChrystal saying, look, we're not going to win this thing by how many people we kill. It's by how many people we convince.
So, I can understand that he has a right to say what he has to say, right, Barbara? But I can also see where some of the generals would say, you know, if we -- if we go down this road, we could create more danger for our soldiers, right? BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: You know, it just doesn't get more sensitive than this, does it, Rick? Religion, the military, two wars in Islamic countries. You know, it is just a religious political mine field in this hyper-atmosphere these days.
Where to start? I mean, the Chaplain Corps, which essentially runs the National Prayer Day here at the Pentagon, which is what this is all about -- he was going to come speak here for National Prayer Day on May 6 -- the Chaplain Corps is supposed to essentially minister to all faiths in the U.S. military.
You can be a military chaplain, and you have to be able to help anyone in your unit, whether they are Christian, Baptist, Muslim, Jewish, or Buddhist.
So...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
STARR: ... this notion of the Christian nation is somewhat troubling to some of the leaders here in the Pentagon, because that's not, essentially, what the Chaplain Corps is about. I'm not sure Reverend Graham's numbers there, by the way, were totally right. We looked it up. It may be a little bit less of a Christian nation than he said, in terms of numbers.
But this has now been...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
STARR: ... the mine field, because, you know, he said -- he has also called Islam an evil thing, an evil religion. And, yet, U.S. troops, including his own son, are fighting in the war zone, and there's a lot of concern...
SANCHEZ: Wow.
STARR: ... his statements could be put on the Internet.
SANCHEZ: I didn't even think of that. Talk about irony, yes.
There are some people who say we have got to be careful what we say, not so much for what we think or for ourselves, but for the actions it could cause against our troops, our soldiers who are overseas.
Barbara, good report. My thanks to you for following that up. Good job getting that -- getting that interview, by the way.
(COUGHING)
SANCHEZ: Pardon me.
All right, let me show you a couple of tweets. We're following people making news on this day. Well, guess who is making news? Sarah Palin. As a matter of fact, she's tweeting about this very thing that we're talking about now. She says, or writes, or tweets, "The nation suffers more transformation, as Mr. Graham is uninvited to speak at Prayer Day because his opinion on radicals isn't politically correct."
I'm not sure anybody said that it was not politically correct, but, certainly, Sarah Palin is entitled to her opinion.
Also, "The Army's loss in disinviting a good man," she writes. Again, that's Sarah Palin obviously taking sides on this very complex, very difficult issue.
Again, the governor should be coming out at any moment now. We may be just a minute or two away. Let's get a break in. Then, as soon as we come back, we will -- we will dip into this news conference that's taking place in Arizona, Phoenix.
We will be right back. This is RICK'S LIST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right, we're going to get out of that.
And it looks like the governor, Brewer, is coming out and about to make this announcement.
The shot so...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to start in two minutes, two minutes.
SANCHEZ: Oh, we're two minutes away. All right.
Get me Casey. Let's fill, as they say on television. We apologize. We broke out of that commercial, because one -- one of the things that really makes this so important is that, is there a possibility that other states will follow suit? Is this the right course to take? Is it morally correct?
All week long, we have been looking at this story. We have brought you both sides. We have brought you some theologians out here and some religious leaders who are saying that they can't, in any way, follow this, because, if they do, they would be breaking God's oath to help the poor and the defenseless.
On the other hand, you have people who are saying, look, what part of illegal do you not understand? They're breaking the law, and we needed to be doing something to stop them.
Now -- now we see protests breaking out in different parts of the country. I believe this is Phoenix, right, Anginette (ph)?
Oh, now -- no, now we're Tucson. These are -- this is interesting. We hadn't seen these before. These are live pictures that are coming out -- coming to us now from Tucson. We saw some of the pictures of the protests coming in from Phoenix a little while ago. We -- we see a lot of young faces, obviously, a -- a heavy Hispanic or a minority representation from people who are opposing this bill. You see the signs there. It says "Basta." Basta in Spanish means "enough," obviously, something that can be said on both sides. That one there says "Chicano Power," referring obviously to a political movement that began many decades ago out West with Cesar Chavez.
This is a shot, I believe...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
SANCHEZ: Wow. This is just outside the capitol.
Let's listen -- let's dip in to this a little bit, Rog, see what we can hear.
All right. This is Phoenix now. It's just outside the capitol.
While all of this is going on -- all right, yes there you go. Good job, Rog.
We split the screen. And you can see the governor there with aides and others who are going to surround her as she makes this possible decision.
I say possible decision because she may say, look, I'm not ready to sign, I want to make sure some lawyers vet this thing before I make my call. It's going to be expected to be challenged, we've been told by experts here, experts of the Constitution like Jonathan Turley.
So on the left you have the governor -- there's the governor now. She's walking out. I'm going to dip into this and let you listen so what she has to say.
GOV. JAN BREWER (R), ARIZONA: Well, good afternoon, everyone. And thank you all for being here today to join me as we take another step forward in protecting the state of Arizona.
The bill I'm about to sign into law, Senate Bill 1070, represents another tool for our state to use as we work to solve a crisis that we did not create and the federal government has refused to fix, the crisis caused by illegal immigration in Arizona's porous border. This bill, the Support Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act, strengthens the laws of our state. It protects all of us, every Arizona citizen, and everyone here in our state lawfully. And it does so while ensuring that the constitutional rights of all in Arizona remain solid, stable and steadfast.
I will now sign Senate Bill 1070.
SANCHEZ: There's the governor now. She's taken out her pen. She had given no signs that she was going to sign this thing.
You hear the chants outside while the governor -- this is a hell of a scene when you think about it. The governor signing a bill into law that's going to really crack down on illegal immigrants, it would seem, while people who support immigrants are outside the capitol.
They're saying the law's too harsh because they say in many cases it will punish not just the illegal immigrants, but other people whose constitutional rights might be violated. That's the view of many constitutional lawyers.
All right. Back to the governor.
BREWER: For weeks, this legislation has been subject of vigorous debate and intense criticism. My decision to sign it was by no means made lightly.
I have listened patiently to both sides and I have considered the significance of this new law long into the night. I have prayed for strength and I have prayed for our state. I've decided to sign Senate Bill 1070 into law because, though many people disagree, I firmly believe it represents what's best for Arizona.
Border-related violence and crime due to illegal immigration are critically important issues for the people of our state. To my administration, and to me as your governor and as a citizen, there's no higher priority than protecting the citizens of Arizona.
We cannot sacrifice our safety to the murderous greed of drug cartels. We cannot stand idly by as drug (ph) houses, kidnappings and violence compromise our quality of life. We cannot delay while the disruption happening south of our border, our international border, creeps its way north. We in Arizona have been more than patient waiting for Washington to act, but decades of federal inaction and misguided policy have created a dangerous and unacceptable situation.
Yesterday, I announced the steps I was taking to enhance security along our borders. Today, with my unwavering signature on this legislation, Arizona strengthens its security within our borders.
Let me be clear, though. My signature today represents my steadfast support for enforcing the law both against illegal immigration and against racial profiling.
This legislation mirrors federal laws regarding immigration enforcement. Despite erroneous and misleading statements suggesting otherwise, the new state misdemeanor crime of willful failure to complete or carry an alien registration document is adopted verbatim from the same offense found in federal statute.
I will not tolerate racial discrimination or racial profiling in Arizona. Because I feel so strongly on this subject, I have worked for weeks with legislators to amend Senate Bill 1070, to strengthen its civil rights protection. That effort led to new language in the bill, language prohibiting law enforcement officers from- - and I quote -- "solely considering race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this section." The bill already requires that it -- and I quote again -- "shall be implemented in a manner consistent with federal laws regulating immigration, protecting the civil rights of all persons, and respecting the privileges and immunities of the United States citizens." While the general protection was already included, I believe the issue is so important, we needed to make it crystal clear. And I believe that we need to more than simply inscribe it in the statute. Words in a law book are of no use if our police officers are not properly trained on the provisions of Senate Bill 1070, including its civil rights provisions.
Today I am issuing an executive order directing the Arizona Peace Officers Standards and Training Board, AZ POST, to develop training to appropriately implement Senate Bill 1070. Importantly, this training will include what does and does not constitute reasonable suspicion that a person is not legally present in the United States.
Currently, AZ POST serves approximately 170 law enforcement agencies, encompassing over 16,000 sworn peace officers and 9,000 correctional service officers and its 16 training academies. The AZ POST board of directors includes the Arizona attorney general, the director of the Arizona Department of Public Safety, the Arizona Department of Corrections, several county sheriffs and local police departments. I'm also asking the board to make recommendations on possible improvements to Senate Bill 1070 before the end of the year.
For 28 years in public service, I have worked without fail to solve problems diligently and practically. And I've always done so, always, with an eye towards civility. And always with the greatest respect for the rule of law. This new law is no different.
As committed as I am to protecting our state from crime associated with illegal immigration, I am equally committed to holding law enforcement accountable should this statute ever be misused to violate an individual's rights. Respect for the rule of law means respect for every law.
I have led the way every day in every office I have ever held. That will not change. I have also spent my career in service to Arizona working to bring people together, no matter the color of their skin, no matter the depth of our disagreements. This bill and this issue will be no exception.
While protecting our citizens is paramount, it cannot come at the expense of diversity that has made Arizona so great. Nor can safety mean a compromise of freedom for some while we the many turn a blind eye.
We must acknowledge the truth. People across America are watching Arizona, seeing how we implement this law, ready to jump on even the slightest misstep.
Some of those people from outside our state have an interest in seeing us fail. They will wait for a single slip-up, one mistake, and then they will work day and night to create headlines and get the face time they so desperately covet.
We cannot give them that chance. We must use this new tool wisely and fight for our safety with the honor Arizona deserves. We must react calmly. We must enforce the law evenly, and without regard to skin, color, accent or social status. We must prove the alarmists and the cynics wrong.
I know in my heart that this great state, my home for more than 40 years, is up to that task. I believe every one of us wants to be safe and none of us wants to compromise on the subject of civil rights. I believe we must love and honor those who fight beside us just as we must love and honor those who look and believe (ph) nothing like we do. I believe Arizona, like America, is governed by laws, good laws, well-intentioned laws, laws that confer respect, that demand respect in return.
In his third State of the Union Address, President Theodore Roosevelt said -- and I quote -- "No man is above the law and no man is below it. Nor do we ask any man's permission when we require him to obey it. Obedience to the law is demanded as a right, not asked as a favor."
So let us move forward ever mindful of our rights, ever faithful to the law, and ever conscious of our bonds as Arizonans and the blessings we share together.
Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
SANCHEZ: Applause. A light applause for Governor Brewer as she makes the decision to sign the bill.
Don't know if she's going to take questions here. If she is, we'll stick around and see if she does.
As you can read by many of the reactions that we're getting, a lot of mixed reactions. Some people applauding the governor, others not so much.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
BREWER: I can't hear you, Howie.
QUESTION: It seems to me that while the bill says race and ethnicity may not be used as the sole factor, it does allow this to be used as a factor. How can that not lead to some form of racial profiling?
BREWER: No different than any other reasonable suspicion, Howie. I mean, we have to trust our law enforcement.
You know, it's a simple reality. And, you know, I'm issuing an executive order to AZ POST, the rules will be laid out. I expect that report to be returned to me in May and go into effect so that everybody understands just exactly what is required.
You know, it's so important that we carefully implement what this law does. And that is my intent. You know, I will tell you, after 28 years of public service, we have faced a lot of different issues in the state of Arizona. And alarmists on many occasions would state that this is going to happen or that's going to happen. And, you know, if it's handled properly, the people of Arizona come together if everybody is armed with the right information.
This can happen. This can work.
This law, the laws in Senate Bill 1070, mirror the loss of the federal government. Police officers are going to be respectful. They understand what their jobs are. They've taken an oath. And racial profiling is illegal.
Next question.
Yes?
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
BREWER: I do not know. I do not know what an illegal immigrant looks like.
I can tell you that I think there are people in Arizona that assume they know what an illegal immigrant looks like. I don't know if they know that for a fact or not. But I know that if AZ POST gets themselves together, works on this law, puts down the description, that the law will be enforced civilly, fairly, and without discriminatory points to it.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
BREWER: You know, I guess politics is an interesting thing. Politicians are people that are elected. They operate, of course, in a political arena. But I would like to believe that any politician, when they are elected, after they're elected, that they do what's right for the people of Arizona.
And after 28 years, I stand before you today to tell you that I believe that I've done that for the last 28 years, and I will continue to do it for the remainder of my term. I think it's very, very important that the people out there understand that Governor Jan Brewer, the great state of Arizona, would always do what's right for the people of Arizona. And I would put politics aside.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) may not find what you're saying --
BREWER: I couldn't hear you at the beginning of that question, Barbara.
QUESTION: As far as the Latino community is concerned, what do you tell them? What are you going to --
SANCHEZ: All right. Let's go ahead and listen to this last answer here. BREWER: Well, I would hope that they would understand that we're a nation of laws, that laws will be enforced, but they will be enforced legally.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
BREWER: Well, you know, it's probably going to survive, I think, in most areas. I will believe that it will probably be challenged.
You know, I've been notified by several different groups, if you will, that they will challenge the constitutionality of it. And that's why we have three areas of government.
SANCHEZ: All right. Speaking of challenging the constitutionality, we've got a constitutional lawyer who's standing by, Jonathan Turley.
Jonathan, are you there? Jonathan Turley, are you there? Can you hear me?
JONATHAN TURLEY, PROFESSOR OF LAW, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: I can hear you, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Listen, I've got to ask you a question. We're going to try to sneak a break in, but I just heard the governor -- I don't know if you caught this. The governor was asked a question, and she was asked whether she knew what constituted an illegal immigrant. "What do they look like?" was part of the question.
She says, "I don't know what they look like." But then she said this -- she said AZ POST, which is essentially the training mechanism used to train police officers and the manuals that they put out for police officers to follow in the state of Arizona, puts down the description. She said -- and I'm going to try and see if Roger, our producer, our director, can back this tape up. I want to make sure I heard her correctly.
"The AZ POST, the police departments will put down the description." I wonder if she meant to say that.
TURLEY: You know, the problem is that the governor was struggling with the obvious problem with the bill. And that is they say that officers will stop people on reasonable suspicion that they lack documents.
But there's no way on earth that you can look at two people and say, I think that one doesn't have documents and that one does, except if you use prohibited racial profiling. And when the governor was struggling to answer the question of, "What does an illegal immigrant look like?" she was dealing with the reality.
You can't simply say that you're following the rule of law as sort of an axiom when you pass a law that doesn't have any standards to it. It only says that officers can stop people for reasonable suspicion. The only way that you can really find all the undocumented people in the population is to ask the entire population. SANCHEZ: Jonathan Turley, let me -- hold it right there. We're going to get a break in. I'm going to ask you about whether this thing will be challenged, what the ramifications are, and then I'm going to challenge you a little bit, because I've got the bill in front of me. And I want to ask you about the language used here.
It's language I haven't seen before. Is it really saying that they can do that, profiling, that you were just referring to, or is not? I just had somebody from FAIR say it does not say that.
We'll talk about it on the other side.
This is your national conversation on a big day of news, your list, RICK'S LIST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BREWER: The bill I'm about to sign into law, Senate Bill 1070, represents another tool for our state too use as we work to solve a crisis that we did not create and the federal government has refused to fix, the crisis caused by illegal immigration in Arizona's porous border. This bill, the Support Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act, strengthens the laws of our state. It protects all of us, every Arizona citizen, and everyone here in our state lawfully.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: This is a bit of a -- I don't know if you could call it a grudge match. Maybe a showdown now between the state of Arizona and the feds.
Listen to the president of the United States today talking about what she just did.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That includes, for example, the recent efforts in Arizona which threaten to undermine basic notions of fairness that we cherish as Americans, as well as the trust between police and their communities that is so crucial to keeping us safe. In fact, I've instructed members of my administration to closely monitor the situation and examine the civil rights and other implication of this legislation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: So here you have a governor in a state saying I'm going to do this and I'm signing this bill, and you have the president just before she made that announcement, the president of the United States, saying that the bill undermines people's rights and that -- well, he's criticizing it. He's essentially criticizing it and saying that the people in the United States government are now going to be looking into the bill to see what they can do. Meanwhile, you've got people demonstrating out on the streets in Phoenix, you've got people demonstrating on the streets of Tucson. And moments ago, Jonathan -- I'm telling you, Jonathan Turley, I heard the governor say that the AZ POST will put down the description.
If she's saying that the police will put out a description of what they're supposed to look for in people who may be illegal, that in and of itself is unconstitutional, isn't it?
Oh, we have the bite?
All right. First of all, let's make sure I heard it right. Let's turn that thing around.
Go ahead guys in the control room. Rog, hit it.
We thought we had it. All right.
If she said that, Jonathan, is it -- those words, "they will put out a description," a description of what the potential suspects might look like? That's profiling in and of itself, is it not?
TURLEY: She acknowledged that one of the things that they can look at is indeed race. But she's saying that they're going to come up with some type of description that would have an objective standard that police could use. The problem is --
SANCHEZ: What is that?
TURLEY: That's exactly right. Reasonable suspicion in the past has been used when police officers see a bulge in a pocket or evidence of contraband. There's something visual, something objective that they can see.
There is no way on heaven or earth that the most trained officer can look at two individuals and say, I think you have a card in your wallet, but you don't. And the problem with a law that doesn't have that type of objective standard is it's virtually begging for racial profiling even though the law says that you can't do that.
And so what's going to happen is not only do you have a confrontation now with the feds, but more importantly, this will be challenged. And the bizarre aspect is we've all been following how Arizona has been cutting programs and selling property because they can't make their budget. Well, they're about to trigger -- or they just have triggered what's going to be a very costly and long litigation.
And I expect that ultimately they will lose. The question is going to be, what's the best case?
Now, some people are likely to wait as thing is enforced to show that there's no way that you can enforce this without making arbitrary and capricious and probably racially-motivated determinations. Some may just challenge it on its face and say, look, court, there's no way that this -- you could have reasonable suspicion under any circumstance unless you raid a business and people run from you. Then, sure, you probably have reasonable suspicion then. But they already have the ability to stop someone in that circumstance.
SANCHEZ: Jonathan, I'm going to hold you right there. Hopefully we'll be able to come back. I want to ask you for your reaction of what the president had to say. It was kind of not a tepid statement by this president about a state in the union. And we're going to talk about that when we come back.
Stay right there. Let's see if we can squeeze this break in and we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Jonathan Turley is among the premier constitutional attorneys in the country.
When was the last time and what are the implications of the federal government having what is starting to look like a literal feud with a particular state government in Arizona given the dichotomy in what she said, the governor, and what President Obama said just before her, Jonathan?
TURLEY: Well, Rick, I think it is something that you don't see every day certainly. And what the president was describing was monitoring for a civil rights impact. That is, to look at the actual people arrested, how they were going to go about doing this, and that's actually the best basis for a lawsuit.
I would not be surprised if Arizona tried to present the smallest target, does not use this widely at the outset, trying to get people to follow prematurely. They don't want to give the record that President Obama is looking for. He suspects, and I agree with him, that it's impossible to enforce this without having serious civil rights violations.
SANCHEZ: Do you believe that police officers will be able to do what we thought in the past only federal officers were allowed to do? And is their argument valid? They say if federal officers can do it, why can't we?
TURLEY: Well, there is some argument they can make for what's called concurrent enforcement. And I think that on that, they could have a good fight where they could certainly present cases that can recognize concurrent enforcement.
They can also support cases that show, look, there might be some circumstances of reasonable suspicion, like a fleeing felon. But what this law suggests is going to be done is that officers will have the independent authority upon reasonable suspicion to stop people and ask for their papers.
That's what makes this so problematic. And I think what the president's describing is basically a mandate to the Department of Justice to watch Arizona closely.
SANCHEZ: We're out of time. Jonathan Turley, thanks so much for taking us through this as it was happening. We're going to stay on top of it. I'm sure "THE SITUATION ROOM" is going to stay on top of it as well, as you see some of the folks are protesting in the streets.
Boy, what a week.
I'm Rick Sanchez. Thanks so much for being with us here on RICK'S LIST.
Now -- pardon me for the sneeze, by the way -- here is Suzanne Malveaux.
