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Rick's List
BP Hiding Truth About Gulf Oil Spill?; Rand Paul's Controversial Views; BP Admits More Oil Leaking More Than Previously Stated; White Powder Found In Package At Independent Hall; International Panel Determines North Korea Sunk South Korean Ship; Stock Market Takes Downturn
Aired May 20, 2010 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: I got to tell you, Drew, you're not going to believe the story that we're starting with now. We've just learned this wild shootout in -- in West Memphis, Arkansas, just across the border from Tennessee. The two police officers on the scene have -- were -- we've just been told that they are dead. One of them is the son of the police chief.
This is a wild scene. Wait until you see the pictures.
And all of this --
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): OK, here's what's making the LIST today.
RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: Capitalism is freedom. It means the freedom to voluntarily exchange goods and retain the fruits of your labor.
SANCHEZ: New Republican nominee Rand Paul disagrees with part of the U.S. Civil Rights Act, suggesting a private businessperson should be allowed to discriminate -- his full explanation coming up.
He said he served in Vietnam.
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D), CONNECTICUT ATTORNEY GENERAL: I may have misspoken. I did misspeak.
SANCHEZ: Why didn't he just say, "I screwed up"? And why didn't an aide back him off of it? Former White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer joins me live.
This is not a sheen, and it's onshore. How did it get past the booms?
GOV. BOBBY JINDAL (R), LOUISIANA: Unfortunately, the day that we have been fearing is upon us today.
SANCHEZ: Is BP trying to hide the truth?
The lists you need to know about. Who's today's most intriguing? Who's landed on the list you don't want to be on? Who's making news on Twitter? It's why I keep a list.
Pioneering tomorrow's cutting-edge news right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Hello again, everybody.
We have been watching this situation in West Memphis, Arkansas, and the situation has just gotten a lot worse. Let me bring you up to date as we look at some of these live pictures.
Now, as you look at some of these pictures that come in -- that come in, I should warn you, I believe that they have tarps over them, but you will see some -- or you may, perhaps, see some dead bodies on the ground as the helicopter shoots from quite a distance.
We're doing everything we possibly can to try and not show them, but, you know, some of this video's coming in as we're just now telling you this story. So, let me catch you up on what we have: two West Memphis police officers now confirmed dead on the scene after this wild shoot-out after a traffic stop on the west side of the city.
One of the dead officers, interestingly enough, one of the dead officers, we understand, is the son of the West Memphis police chief. Boy, I will tell you, that's one of those "Who would have thunk it" things, huh? Two sheriff's deputies were later shot and wounded when officers exchanged fire with the occupants of a van believed to be occupied by the suspects in the police shooting itself.
So, as you can see, it was a shooting compounded by another shooting. Memphis television station WMC is reporting that the two suspects are now in custody. I can tell you the slain officers, according to the Associated Press, are identified as Brandon Paudert and Bill Evans. And it's Paudert's father -- Paudert's father who is the police chief.
There you see some of the live pictures right now. It's a -- it's a horrible scene. Police have been coming there from all over the jurisdiction now. And, as we're able to get more information on motive, how this developed, who the suspects were, and what they were trying to perhaps hide in the shoot-out with police, we will bring this all to you.
It will be breaking news throughout this next hour. So, depend on us to bring you the very latest on it.
Meanwhile, let me bring you up to date now on another story as we begin this newscast. I have got a developing story that actually started right here, yesterday, on this show. Those of you who watch RICK'S LIST daily will recall that, exactly 24 hours ago, sitting in this chair, I was interviewing Congressman Joe Sestak, Democrat of Pennsylvania.
Sestak was fresh off of his heady victory on Tuesday's Senate primary. He had just beaten five-term incumbent Arlen Specter, who enjoyed the backing of the White House. Now, this is interesting, key words there, who enjoyed the backing of the White House. Arlen Specter did. So, I took this opportunity to ask the congressman, Sestak, about some reported White House efforts to protect Arlen Specter by getting Sestak out of the race somehow.
How would they do it? Well, I want you to listen to this now, because this story is now going viral. And then we're going to tell you what just went down moments ago regarding that interview I did yesterday at the White House.
First, back to the interview, back to yesterday. Play it, Rog.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Did the president of the United States, did the White House approach you and offer you the secretary of the Navy position?
REP. JOE SESTAK (D-PA), SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: I was asked the question about two months ago about something that happened last July.
No one ever had asked me the question, did someone offer you something to get out? I answered it honestly yes. And then I said, stop. I'm not going to get into what was a deal offer, because I'm not going to get out for a deal. I would only get out if it was something that was right to do.
And here's what I believe. This kind of deal-making in Washington is kind of what soured Americans and quite frankly soured me, but --
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But, Congressman, you're not --
(CROSSTALK)
SESTAK: I honestly believe this.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Hey, look, you know I appreciate you being here, and you know that I love having you on my show. But I just asked you a very direct question. Give me a direct answer.
Did the president, did the White House offer you the secretary of the Navy gig?
SESTAK: And the answer is, I have said I was offered something. I don't have to go beyond that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: So, here's the point, and here's what some Republicans and some critics are now saying. The possibility that the White House was trying to offer him that gig, as I referred to it, because, if he took that, then he wouldn't run against Arlen Specter, that's what critics say.
He wouldn't go beyond that, as you can see. He said he was offered something. Exactly what, we don't know what that something is. And you noticed I pressed him on it a second time.
Our White House correspondent is Ed Henry. You have seen Ed Henry on the scene before.
Before I even ask Ed a question, I want you -- I want to show you now, this is Ed doing his job today with the White House press secretary. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED HENRY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yesterday, Congressman Sestak was on CNN and said, in fact, that he was offered something. He wouldn't say more, but he said he was offered a job. Would you deny that?
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Ed, I don't have -- I wouldn't give you -- I don't have anything to add what Jake asked me or --
(CROSSTALK)
HENRY: So, you can't rule out that a job was offered?
GIBBS: I don't have anything to add to what I said --
QUESTION: Has the counsel's office said --
(CROSSTALK)
GIBBS: No.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: Could you seek more information?
GIBBS: I don't have anything to add --
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: -- problematic.
QUESTION: It sounds like you are saying you don't -- you have no interest in getting information.
GIBBS: I will just refer you to what I said in March.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Hmm. The questions seem good, but the answers are nowhere to be found.
Ed, what's going on here? HENRY: Well, and he referred us back to March, where he didn't really say much then either.
I think the problem for the White House are several-fold. One is, you got a Republican congressman, Darrell Issa, up on Capitol Hill who has got some investigative powers and has alleged that this was basically a bribe to get Congressman Sestak out of the race. So, anything Robert Gibbs says could wind up being used in some sort of investigation on the Hill. So, they want to be careful about that.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: I want to stop you right there. I want to stop you right there, because you talked about Darrell Issa.
HENRY: Yes. Go ahead.
SANCHEZ: And I just want to get in for a moment. Hold your thought. Let's go to the tweet from Darrell Issa. He's been tweeting. He watched our show yesterday as well. And look what he just tweeted.
He puts out: "Honorary watchdog." Thank you very much. I'm not here -- I'm here to be a watchdog, by the way, for both sides, not for the GOP or the Dems. "Honorary watchdog Rick Sanchez puts Joe Sestak on White House bribe hot seat. Notice the squirming?"
So, obviously, Darrell Issa's all over this story, and he's the one who has been pushing to ask the White House if, in fact, they were, as you used the word, I think, were all but bribing this guy to get out of the race, right?
HENRY: Mm-hmm. Right. And that's the allegation, we have to stress. And nothing has been proven yet.
But when you have in the middle of this, Congressman Sestak, admitting to you there was an offer, at least of some kind, there is something to this story. And then when Robert Gibbs won't really answer these questions and is sort of ducking and evading the questions at the core of it, it certainly raises more questions.
I think the other point -- you step back from whether it was a bribe or not -- is just the politics of it. Let's face it. What would be the White House motive to not talk about this is the fact that, after Arlen Specter lost, the White House was really trying to pull back and say, well, you know, he switched parties. He was sort of dumped in our lap. He voted for some of the things the president -- we were never really pushing hard for him.
Well, wait a second. If you were offering a very prominent job, secretary of Navy -- and I stress if -- to Sestak to get out of the Specter race, that suggests you were behind Senator Specter a lot more than you're letting on.
And, finally, I would just add that if -- as you were talking about with Congressman Sestak about Washington deal-making, that's the kind of political messiness that President Obama as a candidate said he wanted to steer clear of. The whole change agenda was about shaking up Washington, not doing these backroom deals.
And that could hurt the Obama brand, if it is proven that there was some of this deal-making going on.
SANCHEZ: Ed Henry is one of our best. He's on the story, as you can see, pressing the White House for answers. I'm glad we were able to help you in some small way, Ed. We appreciate your time.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: All right, take a look at this, folks. Rand Paul -- Rand Paul, new Kentucky nominee for the Senate, says that he would have marched with Martin Luther King, but he also suggests that private businesses may have the right to discriminate.
Now, what he's talking about is the U.S. civil rights law, right? It's a law. He seems to be disagreeing with a part of it. Do Republicans who voted for him now have a problem in Kentucky? And what did he exactly mean? I'm going to let you hear him in his own words.
Also, new oil leak pictures and a live video feed of the spill, but here's the question, as we look at these live pictures. Is BP trying to cover up how bad the damage really is still? Chad's going to come out here. He's going to be taking us through this.
And have you seen the pictures? Have you seen the pictures on the shores of Louisiana off that island, first ones, as bad as they look? You will in just a moment, folks. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: There's one senator who's been pushing harder than just about anybody else to get no -- to get BP -- pardon me -- to release pictures, to be totally transparent about what's really going on a mile under the surface of the Gulf of Mexico. That's him, Bill Nelson. See him right over there?
Just sent us a tweet. I want to read this tweet. It came in within the hour. "Come with me, live, from one mile down, under the Gulf, at the oil spill."
What's he saying? Well, he's right. For the first time, BP is releasing live pictures. Let's go to those pictures. These are now live pictures. You can see them yourself. You can go to your computer right now at Bill.Nelson.Senate.gov and link from him to BP or NOAA. You will find them in a lot of different places.
But this is important because it's the first time we have seen these pictures.
And Chad Myers, as we do every day, we will talk a little bit about this just in a moment. But, first, I want to bring you up to date on something else. I want to talk about BP finally giving us that continuous live shot. And I want to take you back to the actual moment when this disaster in the Gulf of Mexico really began.
What you're about to see here -- well, OK. Let's just watch it. All right. That's the moment when this happened. All right. Now, I want to take you to something else. I want to take you through a series of photographs, all right? See if we get this right. Ready?
As you look at these photos, I want to tell you why they are important. This is from an island off of Louisiana. It's not a sheen, not protected by a boom. Look at this. See this? This is right from a shore. You will see animals here. Look at that dragonfly.
I mean, it's just symbolic. I don't know if you got a chance to see that crab. There's the crab now. Look at the crab, completely immersed in the oil. OK, where is this? What is this? Where did it come from?
Chad Myers joins us now to take us through this.
Chad, where is this place that we're looking at here? Because since I have been following this story, this is the first time I have seen so much oil right up on the shore.
CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: It's the Mississippi Delta. It is the end of the Mississippi River.
SANCHEZ: OK.
MYERS: People think that the Mississippi River ends in New Orleans. It goes a long place past that.
SANCHEZ: These are like marshes.
MYERS: Into these marshes.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MYERS: Down to Venice, Louisiana, at the end of Highway 23. You go as far as you can go and there are no more roads. You get in a boat, go 10 more miles on a boat, and then you will see where this came from.
But I just talked to NOAA, and this, this oil that we see here is the worst possible case for Louisiana, the best possible case for the Gulf Stream and for the Florida Keys, because this oil now that is blowing with the wind onshore in Louisiana will probably not get into the loop current --
SANCHEZ: OK.
MYERS: -- will not get into the Gulf Stream, will not go up to Daytona, nor will it go to England. SANCHEZ: Well, here's what I don't understand. Do you have a map, by the way, where you can show us where this stuff is?
MYERS: Oh, sure.
SANCHEZ: Let's go over there --
MYERS: All right.
SANCHEZ: -- because there's something I'm curious about. As I was watching David Mattingly's reporting yesterday on this -- and I thought David Mattingly has done an exceptional job showing this -- and he was dipping in with his bottle and actually dragging out this stuff, right?
MYERS: Yes. Sure.
SANCHEZ: All right. So, he's over here, and we're told that they have got booms set up all the way around some of these areas, so that this oil can't touch the surface, right?
MYERS: Can't be everywhere.
SANCHEZ: Well, how in the hell did it get over to the surface? is it possible, OK, is it possible -- we're told a lot of this stuff is below the surface -- that it went below the surface, maybe even under the boom and came out on next to the shore?
MYERS: NOAA doesn't think that's likely, because , even though we had all -- we had this Pelican boat out there, right?
SANCHEZ: Right.
MYERS: They did all this. They found hydrocarbon plume thousands of feet down and it was giant. It was 30 miles by 10 miles by 1,000 feet thick or whatever it was.
When NOAA sampled that water -- they sent sample bottles down there, sampled the water, brought it back up and looked at it -- it was clear. It was not this glob of oil --
SANCHEZ: Interesting.
MYERS: -- that sits down there.
SANCHEZ: So, how did it get through those booms?
MYERS: The booms aren't solid. You can't just drag booms that go all the -- for hundreds of miles and expect -- no way.
SANCHEZ: So, there's a space in between them?
MYERS: They are -- they tried to surround the islands the best that they could. But there's no way that you could make one solid boom 500 miles long. We don't have that many booms.
SANCHEZ: So, if it happened there, it could happen again, right ?
MYERS: And then you have got a boom here that protects that island. You have got a boom here that protects that island. Maybe it goes all the way around. Maybe it doesn't. Water gets through and then it gets farther and farther and farther and farther in.
SANCHEZ: I got it.
All right, keep an eye on these pictures. Apparently, now we can watch it in real time, right? And --
MYERS: We can. In fact, I can watch it on real time on this wall right here.
SANCHEZ: And as -- keep an eye on that for us and let us know what you find out. I know you have been on the phone.
MYERS: Dude, it's better. It's better.
SANCHEZ: Is it?
MYERS: There's no question. I think that is why BP is showing it to us.
(LAUGHTER)
MYERS: I don't know. La, la, la, la, I didn't say that. I didn't say that.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
MYERS: I believe that we -- that BP is now saying they are pumping 5,000 barrels through that little siphon tube. That's 200,000 gallons to you and me --
SANCHEZ: Well, that's good.
MYERS: -- that they're -- that's not going into the Gulf of Mexico, but, if you remember, just for a second, the pipe was coming out like this.
SANCHEZ: Right.
MYERS: The oil a couple days ago was coming out like this and going -- just squirting out like a fire hose.
SANCHEZ: Right.
MYERS: It's not doing that anymore. The oil is only coming up and just oozing out the top. So, it doesn't have force anymore. They have stopped the force. They have stopped the volume. Sure, it's still leaking. I can see it's still leaking.
SANCHEZ: But it's better. (CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Hey, I got to stop you for a moment.
Can you get us the shot here? Apparently, we have got potential tornadic activity in Dallas County, Angie?
MYERS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: All right. Take me to Dallas County, Texas, if you would. See if you can figure out a way to do that.
MYERS: You know what, guys? Can you put -- if you can put that -- you can put 202 into four and it will just pop right in here and we will be able to see it right here.
SANCHEZ: Do you understand that, Roger?
MYERS: And we have already got it. There we go.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Well done.
MYERS: CBS 11, the super ones here.
SANCHEZ: What is this?
MYERS: This is south of Dallas itself, south of Richardson kind of area, southeastern Dallas, so east of Tarrant County. This is a lowering -- I wouldn't call it a tornado. There's a circulation to the cell. The circulation makes a wall cloud. The wall cloud begins to lower down as the suction drags moisture up from the surface. There's inflow here. It's going up, inflow here going up.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: So --
MYERS: Not necessarily spinning and sucking anything up yet, but this is the precursor to what could be a tornado.
SANCHEZ: OK. All right. So, but it looks like there's -- pardon me.
MYERS: Go ahead. Go ahead.
SANCHEZ: Can I write on this?
MYERS: Yes, you can now.
SANCHEZ: It looks like there's like a little wall right here. Is that just rain?
MYERS: That's rain.
SANCHEZ: That's just rain coming down, OK.
MYERS: That's a rain shaft, yes.
SANCHEZ: Thanks. Keep an eye on this, too.
MYERS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: We have got you busy.
MYERS: I like it that way.
SANCHEZ: All right. Here's what else we have got.
Have you heard about North Korea, accused of firing a torpedo against a South Korean submarine? What will U.S. do about this enormous potential provocation? That's ahead.
And then Tea Party hero and GOP nominee Rand Paul suggests it's OK, it's OK for business owners to discriminate on the basis of race. That's a heck of a thing to say, isn't it? I'm going to let you hear what he means by this, because he does have a very full explanation. That's coming up next.
Stay right there, because this promises to be one hell of a story. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Wow, is RICK'S LIST chockfull of stories today. Listen to this, fourth breaking story that I have told you since we began this newscast.
We have just learned that Republican Scott Brown of Massachusetts has all but broken the potential filibuster, and as a result of his vote, he gives the Democrats and those who are pushing for financial reform the opportunity to push forward the debate and the conversation on financial reform legislation.
Let me repeat that one more time. I know it gets a little crazy when you try to understand the politics of how all this works. This is Senator Corker, by the way. As you look at Senator Corker of Tennessee, remember, he's one of the guys who was kind of working with Democrats to try and see if they can come up with a solution for this.
But now we understand that Scott Brown has voted for continuing the discussion, which means that financial reform will now continue, will now be debated, will now be considered in a legislative form. Up to now, there had been a lot of bickering on both sides. The Democrats needed 60 votes. That's the bottom line, folks, and that 60th vote? Scott Brown, Republican, Massachusetts. Surprise, surprise.
OK. Now to Rand Paul. He's topping our political list. He won the Republican nomination for Senate Tuesday night in Kentucky, but he's really in many ways a libertarian who ran with the support of the Tea Party. Here's why Kentucky's newspaper of record is saying that they could not endorse Paul -- quote -- "The trouble with Dr. Paul is that, despite his independent thinking, much of what he stands for is repulsive to people in the mainstream. For instance, he holds an unacceptable view of civil rights, saying that, while the federal government can enforce integration -- integration of government jobs and facilities, private businesspeople should be able to decide whether they want to serve black people or gays or any other minority group."
All right? That's the quote. Now, what is the editorial board talking about when they say that? Does Rand Paul really think businesses should have the right to discriminate without government interference? Remember, not public facilities, just private facilities, a guy who owns a store or anything like that.
All right, here's what he told the paper's editorial board himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you have voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964?
PAUL: I liked the Civil Rights Act in the sense that it ended discrimination in all public domains, and I'm all in favor of that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But?
(LAUGHTER)
PAUL: You had to ask me the but. I don't like the idea of telling private business owners -- I abhor racism. I think it's a bad business decision to ever exclude anybody from your restaurant.
But, at the same time, I do believe in private ownership. But I think there should be absolutely no discrimination in anything that gets any public funding, and that's most of what the Civil Rights Act was about, to my mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Let's continue. It's important to note it's not the only time that Paul has gone on the record with views similar to the ones he just expressed there.
I want you now to listen to him on NPR just Wednesday, yesterday, as a matter of fact. Here he is.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have said that business should have the right to refuse service to anyone and that the Americans With Disabilities Act, the ADA, was an overreach by the federal government. Would you say the same, by extension, of the 1964 Civil Rights Act? PAUL: What I have always said is that I'm opposed to institutional racism, and I would have, had I been alive at the time, I think, had the courage to march with Martin Luther King to overturn institutional racism, and I see no place in our society for institutional racism.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But are you saying that, had you been around at the time, you would have hoped that you would have marched with Martin Luther King, but voted with Barry Goldwater against the 1964 Civil Rights Act?
PAUL: Well, actually, I think it's confusing on a lot of cases with what's actually was in the civil rights case, because, see, a lot of the things that actually were in the bill I'm in favor of. I'm in favor of everything with regards to ending institutional racism.
So, I think there's a lot to be desired in the Civil Rights -- and to tell you the truth, I haven't really read all through it, because it was passed 40 years ago and hadn't been a real pressing issue in the campaign on whether I'm going to vote for the Civil Rights Act.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But it's been one of the major developments in American history in the course of your life. I mean, do you think the '64 Civil Rights Act or the ADA for that matter were just overreaches and that businesses shouldn't be bothered by people with a basis in law to sue them for redress?
PAUL: Right. I think a lot of things could be handled locally.
For example, I think that we should try to do everything we can to allow for people with disabilities and handicaps. You know, we do it in our office with wheelchair ramps and things like that.
I think, if you have a two-story office and you hire someone who's handicapped, it might be reasonable to let them have an office on the first floor, rather than the government saying you have to have a $100,000 elevator.
And I think, when you get to solutions like that, the more local the better, and the more commonsense the decisions are, rather than having a federal government make those decisions.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Marc Morial is the president of the National Urban League. He's dedicated to economic empowerment in urban communities.
Mr. Morial, thanks for being with us, sir.
MARC MORIAL, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL URBAN LEAGUE: Thanks, Rick.
SANCHEZ: What do you make of the explanation that you just heard from the candidate? And I should add to that, that we have been monitoring comments from him throughout the course of the day. He doesn't seem to be taking it back or apologizing. He feels pretty strongly about it.
And we should also add that we have invited him to come here to discuss it. And we are hoping, if he can free some time in his schedule within the next couple of days, that he will.
What do you make of this?
MORIAL: Rick, it's a bizarre point of view. It's a retrogressive point of view.
It indicates a degree of constitutional illiteracy, to suggest that the Civil Rights Act should not apply to -- quote -- "public accommodations." And I do believe that, when I heard it, I had to take --
SANCHEZ: You mean private? You misspoke. You mean private?
MORIAL: Public accommodation -- no, I mean public accommodations --
SANCHEZ: Uh-huh.
MORIAL: -- private businesses which serve the public, which is the exact reason for the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
One of its reasons was to extend to restaurants, to hotels, which are private businesses, but they serve the public. They have a license --
SANCHEZ: I see.
MORIAL: -- to serve the public. And they can't discriminate.
SANCHEZ: OK, well, let me just -- let me just stop you and try and be as fair as I can to him and his perspective on this, which is, I go and buy a business. If I want to be foolish enough -- because I don't think he's saying that it's smart business -- in fact, I heard him say it's not smart business to do this.
I also heard him say he doesn't believe in being prejudiced or being racist or discriminating against people. What he's saying is, as a true libertarian, anyone should have the right to do anything they want to do, even if it's stupid, even if it means taking away your own business and discriminating against people because they're white or black or green or whatever the heck they are.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: That's what he's saying.
MORIAL: He's misinterpreting what libertarianism is all about if he suggests that a person that owns a private business that serves the public can discriminate against African-Americans, Latinos, whites, people with disabilities, or any specific group of people on the account of race, creed, or national origin.
This is a bizarre point of view --
SANCHEZ: But why is he wrong?
MORIAL: And we've got to understand --
SANCHEZ: But why is he wrong?
MORIAL: He's wrong -- he's wrong bus, number one, the Supreme Court has decided this issue.
SANCHEZ: Fair enough.
MORIAL: The civil rights act can and should apply.
Number two, he's wrong because he embraces a view of America which we put aside 50 years ago. We went through a difficult period, a civil rights period, to embrace the idea that this nation is a nation of all people.
And I think to the extent that he embraces that point of view, he's embracing an outmoded, outdated point of view which has long been discredited. He can't suggest I'd march with Dr. King, yet the very purpose of Dr. King's movement which was to expand civil rights -- he certainly does not support that.
SANCHEZ: One final thing --
MORIAL: Here's a candidate for the United States Senate, someone who could very well be IN the Senate. So we could very well speak out and identify the fact that he's wrong as a matter of the constitution, as a matter of law, and I think as a matter of libertarianism.
SANCHEZ: OK, one final question to you. His point about business, that businesses should not be obstructed, they should not have their hands tied by the government constantly telling them what to do. I believe, from listening to him, that that's his major point. What do you make of that? We're down to 30 seconds.
MORIAL: What I make of that is we in this nation afford to businesses licenses to operate. We have a balance between private business and I think the ability of government to protect people through public policy. I think it's an extremist point of view that no reasonable person embraces in the 21st century.
And I do believe that it's so important that this be highlighted, because he's embraced the point of view that's far out of the mainstream.
SANCHEZ: Thank you so much, Marc Morial, for joining us with your perspective on that.
MORIAL: Thanks, Rick.
SANCHEZ: And hopefully we'll get a chance to talk to you again.
I want to show you something else now, what BP did today. They have set up a live feed of their camera from the floor of the Gulf, all right?
This has members of Congress fired up, as you might imagine. Senator Bill Nelson of Florida is about to call in to this show, breaking story number six, and take us through this. As we go to break, this ominous live view over Dallas County, Texas, as well. Switch the shot if you possibly -- oh, there it is. Nicely done! Way to go, Roger!
All right, that's the scene in Dallas County. It looks like what could become a tornado. Not one yet, but it looks like it has the makings of a tornado. That's what you heard Chad talking about a little while ago. He's going to be keeping an eye on this.
We're going to be right back. This is RICK'S LIST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Just tell me. Hold on. Chad, Chad, come back. Come back. Tell me -- you got 20 seconds to take me through these pictures out of Waxahachie. Is that what it is?
MYERS: Very close.
SANCHEZ: What do we got there?
MYERS: Ellis County, a storm trying to tornado. I don't think it's come down lately. As a point it was on the ground as a small tornado -- that's OK. They are following it there. CBS 11 is following it. If it does touch the ground in Ellis County, I will certainly let you know.
SANCHEZ: Then we'll have a big story on our hands.
MYERS: Another one.
SANCHEZ: All the folks there, what do you tell them? Stay safe? Get in your basement?
MYERS: If you're in Waxahachie right now, you probably need to be inside. Go inside, stay in the lowest levels, do your tornado procedures, get the kids inside and stay away from the windows.
SANCHEZ: All right, there you have the picture. We're going to follow it for you.
In the meantime, we've got another developing story that we're following for you, and that's everything going on in the Gulf of Mexico. And it seems like one of the ultimate sources on this, at least from a congressional standpoint, is Senator Bill Nelson from the sunshine state, great state of Florida. Bill Nelson, former astronaut.
And, boy, he has been -- he's just really had his ears pinned on this story. He's calling us now to let us know what he's learned. Senator, thanks for being with us, sir.
SEN. BILL NELSON, (D) FLORIDA: Hey, bless you, Rick. And it's your home state as well.
SANCHEZ: Yes. You -- I'm glad you know that.
Listen, you've really been on these guys to be more transparent. It sounds like you've had some success. The latest thing is they're putting out live feeds now of what that leak actually looks like. Was that part of your doing?
NELSON: Yes, sir, and Senator Boxer's, the two of us teamed up. And it was obvious that BP was dragging their feet. They did not want people to see the live feeds, because what it shows, you go to my website, and you can see it live. And I bet you're showing it on the screen right now.
SANCHEZ: Yes, we've been showing it, as a matter of fact, since -- and we gave you kudos and credit for you and we've been showing it since the beginning.
NELSON: Yes, you can see -- you can see that it's now what BP has just admitted, Associated Press moved the story that they admit, concede, that it is more than the 5,000 barrels per day.
And when you see that much oil gushing from two different sources, at the wellhead, which is one, and, number two, at the end of the pipe they call the riser that's laying on the seabed, then you can see how much oil is going into the ocean.
SANCHEZ: So, wait a minute. You're making news here. They've conceded that it's more than the 5,000 barrels a day? There were estimates as high as 25,000, one even going all the way to 75,000 barrels a day. Do you know which one it is or which estimate might be closer to the truth?
NELSON: No. The AP story that said they conceded that it is more, did not say how much.
SANCHEZ: How much specifically.
NELSON: But it's obvious when you see that.
And, by the way, you know, one of those, they stuck a smaller pipe in the bigger pipe to try to suck that oil out of it. And they told us that that was very successful.
Well, if you look at that picture, which is now live, you will see that despite that smaller pipe being stuck in there, that the oil is still just gushing out of the bigger pipe into the ocean water.
SANCHEZ: Senator Bill Nelson, my thanks for calling in, sir. We appreciate it. Keep us -- keep us honest on this thing, whenever you got anything else, let us know, sir.
NELSON: Thanks, Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right, some more breaking news now. We've just learned that a white powder scare at one of America's most iconic symbols has taken place, the Liberty Bell. We've got breaking news from Philadelphia. We've got crews there, and obviously as we try to get through this story, we'll bring you the very latest.
This is RICK'S LIST with a lot going on, lists of breaking news on this day. Stay right there, we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Here we go to Philadelphia where we understand that some suspicious powder may have been found on the premises near the Liberty Bell, one of the most iconic symbols for the United States. Susan Candiotti, I understand, is standing by to bring us up to date on that. Susan, what do you know?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Here's the latest that we have, Rick, from the FBI as well as other law enforcement sources down there. This is some kind of a container, according to the FBI, not a canister, as some have described it, but more like, I'm being told, a plastic tube or a balloon according to the FBI, possibly filled with some kind of powder.
And so they're on their way now, all these agencies are on the scene. In fact, they've already cleared out a portion of the area of Independence Mall, specifically about a one-block area on Sixth Street between Market and Chestnut Street.
And so they've -- it's along the pedestrian mall there. You're taking a look now at some aerial shots that are being provided us by our CNN affiliate WPBI in Philadelphia. The bomb squad is, of course, on the way.
They're approaching this as they would any other situation, very carefully, to find out exactly what this object is, if it's something completely innocent or something more sinister.
But to be careful, they've got to move everyone away from the scene so that the fire department, the police department, the bomb squad, and the FBI can do its job. And that's what's happening now, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Hey, just to be clear, Susan, trying to get a handle, is this something more akin to a suspected anthrax because it's got a powder in it, as originally the report came in, or is it something more akin to a possible explosive?
CANDIOTTI: Well, certainly when we hear a white powder, that's what we all think about.
SANCHEZ: Right.
CANDIOTTI: But no one knows right now because it's far too early. As you know, a lot of time we've found over the years substances described as a white powder or a powder. And they do testing right away on the scene to see what kind of results they get back, and they can tell fairly quickly whether it is something to worry about or whether it could be something else.
So at this time the thing is we're paying special attention to this, because as you know, one of the most popular tourist attractions in the United States, it's the Liberty Bell. It's the pedestrian mall. There are always a lot of people around there on tours.
And in that Independence Mall complex, you know, has a museum, the constitution museum. It has the Independence Hall where the Declaration of Independence was signed, and of course the Liberty Bell. And this happened close by to the Liberty Bell.
SANCHEZ: Susan Candiotti, thank you for bringing up to date on this. If you have something else, let Angie or Michael know and we'll bring you back on.
Meanwhile, North Korea sank a South Korean ship. That's an international panel's conclusion, that North Korea has sunk a South Korean submarine. I want to show you what's believed to have sunk it. And what is the United States going to do about this? I mean, this looks like a clear provocation, does it not? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right, before we do anything else, I want to bring you back up to date about what's going on in west Memphis, in Arkansas, across from Tennessee, the other side of the city of Memphis, where we understand there's been a wild shooting.
Two police officers have been shot and killed. Interestingly enough, one of those police officers that was shot and killed is the son of the police chief of west Memphis.
There were some men in a van. They were stopped, then suddenly a shooting broke out. Examples -- or the specifics of how this went down and what the motive is are still unclear. There you see police looking for bullet casings as they investigate the area.
We will be taking you back to this scene right at the -- in fact, we're planning in 15 minutes to let you hear what the spokesman -- the police spokesperson there has to say about how this whole thing developed and what may have possibly brought it on.
Meanwhile, I want to tell you now about another complex story with four simple images. One, this is a piece of North Korean torpedo that you're seeing right there. It was recovered during an international probe into the sinking of a South Korean warship.
Two, photographs now of some of the 46 South Korean victims of what's being called the most serious provocation between these two countries, these two Koreas, in decades.
Three, North Korean leader Kim Jong-il, his country has said it will respond to any punishment with all-out war.
Four, take a look at this map. Some 28,000 United States troops are stationed in South Korea on the other side of that border, about 1 million North Korean troops, 70 percent, within 90 miles of the demilitarized zone. Here we go again.
I hope that gives you the outline of a story that we're going to be watching as it unfolds. And I hope that it displays the limits to the Obama administration's option at this point.
Joining me now from Washington, former government official, Victor Cha. Cha was a member of the National Security Council under George W. Bush, and in 2007 he was the first U.S. official to visit North Korea in almost five years. Thank you, sir, for being with us.
VICTOR CHA, FORMER NCS ASIA AFFAIRS ADVISER: My pleasure.
SANCHEZ: So, you've been there. You've looked at these guys in the eyes. You know who they are and perhaps what it is that motivates them. Why in the hell would they do something like this?
CHA: Well, you know, rick, I think one of the reasons is revenge. I mean, there have been altercations between the north and the south in this area for quite some time, the most recent being in November of 2009. So, this could have been retribution, although on a much larger scale.
SANCHEZ: What do we do? I mean, here's the United States of America, who's gone to war in Iraq, who's gone to war in Afghanistan, for things that may be considered less of a provocation than this. These guys just used a submarine, apparently, reportedly, to take down a ship of a country that is one of our allies that we fought for and defended.
CHA: Yes. I mean, it's a tough situation, because, you're right, we're -- we're in two wars right now. And the challenge is you want to try to come up with a response that will deter the North Koreans from doing this again, but you don't want to start a war.
So, I think it's going to be -- you know, it's a tough policy dilemma for the administration, and they will look with the South Koreans for ways of reinforcing the alliance, reinforcing the naval capabilities, and taking this to the U.N.
SANCHEZ: Why is North Korea seemingly so untouchable? Tell us, as an expert, as someone who's been there. Why we keep having discussions like the one you and I are having now, where people say, well, it's difficult, it's touchy, we really can't do much about it because, because, because. Why is that?
CHA: I mean, there are two reasons basically. The first is the strength of the regime is the weakness of the people, you know, and they have been -- had a tight control over this country for 50 years. And you have a leadership that basically does what it wants to do is and is not accountable to the people.
The second reason is the region, the geostrategic situation is such that China likes to have a buffer on its border in North Korea. And for that reason it tends to prop up this decaying dictatorship even though it's probably not in Chinese interests in the long term to have a nuclear weapons armed North Korea. SANCHEZ: A lesson learned very adeptly by a guy named MacArthur, right?
CHA: Right, that's right. And, you know, this is probably the worst provocation since the days of MacArthur, since the end of the Korean War.
SANCHEZ: Wow.
CHA: And as the U.S. has said, as the White House has said, this is a blatant violation of the armistice.
SANCHEZ: This is the worst -- you just said on our air, this is the worst provocation since MacArthur?
CHA: Since the end of the Korean War, yes.
SANCHEZ: Wow.
CHA: The largest loss of life of the South Korean military at the hands of the North Koreans.
SANCHEZ: You were the right guy to get on this. You certainly know what you're talking about, and we appreciate you taking time to join us and sharing your information with the American people.
CHA: Sure, Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right, take a look at this folks --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, (D) CONNECTICUT ATTORNEY GENERAL: On a few occasions, I have misspoken about my service, and I regret that. And I take full responsibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: But was it a lie? And why didn't he just come out and say "I screwed up, I'm sorry"? And why did his staff -- why didn't the people around him, maybe his family, somebody pull him aside at I'm sorry point and say, why do you keep saying that?
It's a question I'm going to ask of Ari Fleischer, who knows what it's like to advise a very powerful politician or two. He was President George W. Bush's press secretary. I'm going to ask him how this could have or should have been handled.
Also, we're hearing the president is about to speak live from the Rose Garden on that breaking news just reported from the Senate that with the help of Scott Brown it looks like financial reform as a legislative package might somehow get through and debated, or at least debated.
Stay there, folks. This is your national conversation. This is your list. This is RICK'S LIST, and we're coming right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. New Republican nominee and tea party hero, Rand Paul suggests that a private business owner should be allowed to discriminate, and the government should not interfere.
All right, here's the question on that. What are the political implications of that? We just talked to someone more from a civil rights standpoint. Now I'm going to talk to someone from the conservative wing and someone from the liberal wing and ask them -- left and right -- well, what is this going to do?
Did the Republican Party know that when this guy won this was what they were getting? How big a problem is it, if it's even a problem? All right, that discussion's at the top of the next hour.
But coming up Poppy Harlow will be joining us with a look at the market. So, stay right there. And then there's the list of the day. Don't forget that one. Greatest heists, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. Poppy Harlow is standing by now to bring us up to date with what's going on with her money list. How's the market doing today, Poppy?
POPPY HARLOW, CNNMONEY.COM: Just horrible. Let's pull up the DOW so I can show you what's going on. Looking at the numbers, it's down 361 points. We're at the lows of the session. That is very bad news going into Friday.
Why is that? Friday's the last trading day of the week. We've had volatility for the past few weeks, Rick, and this is the worst we've seen all day.
You talk to traders behind me on the floor here. They say a number of things are going on. First of all, we got an abysmal job numbers this morning, a lot worse than expected. We get the report once a week, the unemployment claims 471,000 of them from Americans last week alone.
That shows us, traders say, the recovery we hear so much about from the administration and from businesses, not so much when people don't have jobs, that's an issue.
And the European debt crisis, Rick, that is far from solved. We have a nearly $1 trillion bailout package. Greece got its first installment of that this week. It doesn't matter. It's weighing on the euro, it's weighing on the European markets, which took a big hit, and it's certainly weighing on us on Wall Street.
So really an abysmal market, down almost 370 points right now, Rick.
SANCHEZ: That's a big nut, 367 -- 368, moved down just another point while we were talking. HARLOW: It did.
SANCHEZ: Thanks so much, we look forward to seeing you again as we continue to follow the situation with the market.
HARLOW: You got it. You got it.
