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Rick's List
Capping the Leak; 'Top Kill' Maneuver News Conference; Coastal Damage From Oil Spill
Aired May 27, 2010 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: So, this situation in the Gulf, is it reverberating on Wall Street, I'm wondering?
Poppy Harlow is joining us now. She has got her CNNMoney list -- Poppy.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good question, Rick.
I mean, taking a look at stocks, let's pull up the Big Board for you here, the closing bell just ringing right now on Wall Street, stocks at the highs of the session, the Dow up 286 points. What a day. We will take that, and, as you see, in the green all session long.
But you asked about the situation in the Gulf. And I'm looking at live trading of BP stock right now, Rick, and it closed higher by 7 percent today. That shows us two things. That shows us some investor confidence in that stock. And we saw oil prices rise significantly today.
Of course, the news from President Obama on limiting some of that offshore drilling really playing in there, investors looking at that. And, finally, Rick, they love this news -- and so will you, I think -- out of Citigroup. Citigroup -- the government selling off some of its shares in Citigroup and getting back about $6 billion more from that TARP program.
All in, taxpayers getting back about $26 billion of the $45 billion that we gave Citigroup as a loan, bailing them out at the height of the financial crisis. It was pretty good news --
SANCHEZ: That is great.
HARLOW: -- that investors like today. You always like that news.
SANCHEZ: Well, yes. Hello? If I loaned you money, I would want you to pay me back, too, you know?
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Isn't that how it works?
HARLOW: With interest. With interest.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Yes, with interest, exactly.
HARLOW: That is how it works.
SANCHEZ: Poppy, appreciate it. We will be looking for you again tomorrow.
Meantime, we are starting again, the 4:00, now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): This is a special edition of RICK'S LIST.
Will top kill work? Can they patch this disastrous leak?
BILLY NUNGESSER, PRESIDENT, PLAQUEMINES PARISH, LOUISIANA: We want results. We're tired of getting promises.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are we going to do? How are we going to survive?
SANCHEZ: Fingers crossed, tempers flare.
TONY HAYWARD, CEO, BP GROUP: We rate the probability of success as somewhere between 60 and 70 percent.
SANCHEZ: Why is it being run by this guy?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go in, completely take over, perhaps with the military in charge.
SANCHEZ: We're drilling down on this RICK'S LIST special edition: "Capping the Leak."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez, and here is where we are right now, 26 hours now top kill operation.
And there's the picture. I mean, there is the picture that really tells the story. That's a live streaming video of what is happening 5,000 feet below the surface of the Gulf of Mexico.
As you see that picture, you will notice that there is a coloration issue here. In other words, yesterday, when we first started telling you this story, the color of the residue that was coming from the bottom of the ocean was very different from this.
And, today, it's got that reddish hue. Seems to be an indication that there is mud that is coming from there, which means the mud that's being pushed down may be starting to finally create that -- that pressure on the oil and the gas. That's what they want. They want it to go down, down and down, eventually capping it with some concrete.
That is essentially how this works.
Chad Myers is joining me, as well as Brooke Baldwin, during this hour. And, of course, Professor Satish from Rice University is joining me as well to bring us up to date on what is going on.
There is a political part to this story as well. For those of you just now getting home, the president of the United States came before cameras today, answered reporters' questions, and really pushed back at this notion that he has not been in charge and hasn't done enough.
In fact, the pushback wasn't against Republicans or people on the radio. No, it was against it was Democrats. It was who seem to be criticizing this president as much as anyone else. Listen to James Carville.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: This president needs to tell BP, I'm your daddy. I'm in charge. You're going to do what we say. You're a multinational company that is greedy, and you may be guilty of criminal activity.
President Obama needs to understand that BP does not wish him well, that the United States government is in charge of this. I said yesterday he's got to be the daddy in this relationship. And they -- and BP has got to understand that.
They are not the United States government. They don't wish us well. They're responsible for this cleanup. The president needs to look them in the eye and say, hire contractors, fix this, and write checks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: A lot of talk about, who's your daddy? So, what really happened today?
Well, two things. First of all, the director of Minerals Management Services is out, Elizabeth Birnbaum. She was either fired or she resigned. There seems to be some conflicting information about this.
And then the president himself, as I intimated moments ago, came forward for a lengthy afternoon news conference. And he answered charges, like the one you just heard from James Carville. He explained that, from the very beginning, he says, he's been in charge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The day that the rig collapsed and fell to the bottom of the ocean, I had my team in the Oval Office that first day. Those who think that we were either slow on our response or lacked urgency don't know the facts. This has been our highest priority since this crisis occurred. Personally, I'm briefed every day, and have probably had more meetings on this issue than just about any issue since we did our Afghan review. And we understood from day one the potential enormity of this crisis and acted accordingly.
So when it comes to the moment this crisis occurred, moving forward, this entire White House and this entire federal government has been singularly focused on how do we stop the leak and how do we prevent and mitigate the damage to our coastlines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: The president talked about the cozy and potentially corrupt relationship between regulators and these oil companies. He talked about permits and enforcement. He called it appalling. He said more reforms are needed. He said scandalously close relationship between permitters and companies, and, as a result, he seems to be scaling back or stopping altogether his initiative that would have allowed for more drilling in the Gulf of Mexico.
Once again, you see the picture there.
Our expert is Professor Satish Nagarajaiah, professor of civil and environmental engineering at Rice University.
Professor, I haven't asked you many political questions since you have been joining us, but I guess, in this case, it seems appropriate that I should ask. Is the president right to freeze this until they figure out what's wrong and how to make the process better?
SATISH NAGARAJAIAH, PROFESSOR OF CIVIL AND ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEERING, RICE UNIVERSITY: I think so. I think the president is very right in pausing and taking a look at what is being done right, what is not being done right. And he has constituted this panel that is going to look into this. And I think he's doing the right thing.
SANCHEZ: We are now well into this process. Would you explain to our viewers how you believe that this top kill operation is going at this point?
NAGARAJAIAH: They have been pumping mud for about 26 hours now.
And, you know, the key word is, they have stabilized the circulation. And what you're seeing there, from what -- as compared to what you were seeing yesterday was that, yesterday, there was only pure oil and gas coming out. Today, there is a mixture of oil, gas and mud coming out.
That's why you see the red color in -- of the discharge. And the longer this goes on, the more likely that success of this technique will bear out. So, you know, I'm hopeful, actually. It is a very good sign.
SANCHEZ: And -- and, you know, going back to our explanation, it -- it continues to be, for those of you who -- who have missed some of the conversations that we have had, what you essentially want is downward pressure -- now, follow my hand -- downward pressure being applied by the mud to essentially be equal to or greater than the upward pressure that is being exerted by the oil and the natural gas.
And when -- when those two are finally at equilibrium or the one on top is pushing down further, then they come in with the cement, cap it, and, hopefully, we will all say, hooray, it has worked.
Now, we're -- we are not there yet, though, right? But that is essentially what they want to do.
NAGARAJAIAH: Yes, you are absolutely right, Rick. That is exactly what they want to accomplish.
And I think they are making steady progress. You know, I -- no bad news is good news right now.
SANCHEZ: But it also doesn't mean that we are in the clear. This thing could still --
NAGARAJAIAH: Yes, yes, absolutely.
SANCHEZ: In other words, the upward pressure could end up being too much for the downward pressure. We don't know, right, because from what you have told me, this has never been done before?
NAGARAJAIAH: Yes, absolutely.
And, you know, they are monitoring the pressure both above and below. And the pressures will tell eventually whether they are getting control of the well. And when they get complete control of the well, as you stated, that when the downward pressure and upward pressure are equilibrated, then they will know that they have full control, and then they are going to go and introduce cement and plug the well.
SANCHEZ: So, Chad, you have been following this conversation, myself, yourself, and the professor, now going on two days.
Do you believe, from all the conversations that you and I have had over the last month since this thing started, it seems, are we where we thought we would be?
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: I don't know. That mud could be only down four feet. That mud could be down 400 feet. That mud could be down 1,000 feet pushing the oil back down.
SANCHEZ: Too hard to tell.
MYERS: There is no way to tell. We don't -- there is not a camera down in the -- in the -- in the oil well.
SANCHEZ: Well --
MYERS: You know, we don't know.
SANCHEZ: I saw you. You were -- you were writing some notes here.
MYERS: I just -- I want to ask the professor, does -- because we are seeing all this mud, should we be optimistic in assuming that there is less oil coming out? Can we -- can we make that stretch?
NAGARAJAIAH: Partly, yes. I mean, what is currently happening is mud is circulating in the well. It is getting mixed in the oil. But, eventually, remember, these particles of mud, more and more of that will get collected in the well. And that is what is going to exert the pressure, downward pressure.
MYERS: Is this mud toxic?
NAGARAJAIAH: And that has -- for that to happen -- no, certainly not, no.
MYERS: Not toxic?
NAGARAJAIAH: No, it is not.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Let's take a quick -- let's take a quick break here, gentlemen. Obviously, we will continue the conversation after the break.
And we are also going to be drilling down -- I have been using that metaphor a lot lately -- drilling --
MYERS: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: -- down on the anger and the frustration along the folks who live in the Gulf of Mexico.
It is obviously all over Twitter, all over social media. And there are some people today who have been showing their emotions like we have never seen before.
And how dangerous are some of the oil fumes that are now being dealt with by the folks who are trying to clean this up in the Gulf of Mexico? There are reports of people getting sick that we hadn't heard of before. What's being done for them?
This is your national conversation, your list, RICK'S LIST.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By far, the thickest oil we have seen yet. This is just disturbing. Check it out, I mean, the oil, layers of oil actually building on each other in a putty-like form. This definitely is not dispersed. It is barely weathered at all. It almost looks like it is fresh, fresh from the pipe.
(END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: I'm back with Professor Satish from Rice University and Chad Myers. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Interesting question just came in from someone who is watching our newscast. In fact, a lot of interesting and smart responses from many of you have been coming in. But I'm keying in on this one right here.
It's Sam2012C. See it up there? It says: "Mr. Sanchez, will you ask the Rice scientist what happens if we do nothing? How much oil is in the well? Will it stop?"
That's an interesting question, Professor. If this thing were not capped at all, does it just continue spilling ad infinitum?
NAGARAJAIAH: Yes, it will. It will continue -- well, not ad infinitum, but there is a -- it is a reservoir, so it has a tremendous amount of oil. So, it is going to be spewing for months and months, perhaps even years, actually.
SANCHEZ: Months and months, perhaps even years? Wow.
The -- I'm just thinking about that and wondering, if we think it would be bad now, how terrible that would be if that were to happen. And the reason that happens is because that reservoir --
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Yes, go ahead. I'm sorry.
NAGARAJAIAH: But, remember, when they drill the relief wells, which we -- we are, you know, a couple months out, those relief wells are going to cap this well.
SANCHEZ: Right. Right.
NAGARAJAIAH: That is a well-established technique, yes.
SANCHEZ: Which is what they did in the Bay of Campeche back in 1979, I believe.
NAGARAJAIAH: Yes, absolutely. Yes.
SANCHEZ: Right?
NAGARAJAIAH: Yes, you are right.
SANCHEZ: So, eventually, that would stop it.
But I just had a secondary follow-up question. Why does it have so much pressure? I know we are talking geology here. But can you help us laymen understand what it is that makes that stuff shoot straight up like that, in -- in -- in -- you know, kind of in layman's terms, with so much pressure, and -- and -- and so much of the oil, as you described, that would last for months and months?
NAGARAJAIAH: Rick, think about this, the Earth as a watermelon, OK?
SANCHEZ: Uh-huh.
NAGARAJAIAH: And let's say you prick -- prick a hole in the watermelon with a straw.
SANCHEZ: Right.
NAGARAJAIAH: You sit on the watermelon. You sit on the watermelon.
SANCHEZ: Right.
NAGARAJAIAH: OK?
So, you -- as the pressure increases, you are going to have things squirting out of the straw.
SANCHEZ: Right.
NAGARAJAIAH: Just like that, because the Earth's strata is punctured here, you are going to have -- you know, this reservoir is actually under pressure because of the overburden of the rock and formation. And that is what is making this oil come out, gush out of that hole in the --.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Excellent, excellent explanation, Professor.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Even I understood that one, sir. Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Here is some sound we want to share with you now as we go to our next break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN SALAZAR, U.S. INTERIOR SECRETARY: Everybody needs to be held accountable, and that includes the federal government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: And that's really what it comes down to it, accountability. But there's also the cleanup, easing the suffering along the Gulf Coast.
General Russel Honore knows a lot about crisis management. He has had to handle a few in his life and how to use the military in peacetime emergencies. And we are also going to be talking to a fellow Louisianan, somebody who is very familiar with what is going on down there and has been a real critic of BP and the administration. Billy Nungesser is going to join us here. You have seen him before. It will be the three of us.
Stay right there. This is your LIST, RICK'S LIST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Rick. It is Kathleen (ph) from Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
I have been watching your show on capping the leak. And the question I have is, how do the powers that be at BP sleep at night or look at themselves in the mirror? I mean, they just decimated the Gulf of Mexico and the coastal Louisiana. I think it's disgusting.
Bye.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: We are now joined by two men of distinction, two Louisianans.
Russel Honore, he is the -- he is in Baton Rouge, retired Army three-star general, commanded military responses to Hurricane -- Hurricane Katrina, called by -- a hero by some -- called a hero for that effort by some. He is a board member of the Louisiana Disaster Recovery Foundation.
And also joining us by phone is Billy Nungesser, Plaquemines Parish president, who has been very hard, both on BP and the president of the United States.
Let's begin there with the president of the United States. I want you all to listen now to what the president had to say today when he was talking to reporters today, because he has been questioned.
In fact, Mr. Nungesser, you have questioned whether the president has really been all-in on this thing. And he answered in a very personal way today, including a story about his daughter. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: This is what I wake up to in the morning and this is what I go to bed at night thinking about. And --
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
OBAMA: The spill.
And it's not just me, by the way. You know, when I woke up this morning and I'm shaving, and Malia knocks on my bathroom door and she peeks in her head and she says, "Did you plug the hole yet, daddy?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Billy Nungesser, you have raised a lot of serious questions about this president. What are you thinking when you hear the president say those words?
BILLY NUNGESSER, PRESIDENT, PLAQUEMINES PARISH, LOUISIANA: Well, let me tell you something. I have met with him.
Listen, I truly believe this president cares. He was engaged. He is the reason we got those jack-ups out there on the front line identifying the oil as it comes ashore. And I -- I will not criticize him. I will not say he is not doing enough until I look him in the eye and tell him the problems we are having.
And I truly believe (AUDIO GAP) took on his last trip down, that when he hears the dissatisfaction that we have with the present chain of command, the action taken by the Coast Guard and BP is unacceptable, that he will make changes. He will make things happen.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: What do you want -- what do you want them to do? I have heard you say on several occasions that you think shore islands should be created to stop the oil from coming onto the actual shoreline of Louisiana right now. You -- you still calling for that?
NUNGESSER: Absolutely.
I -- listen (AUDIO GAP) we do absolutely everything physically possible to protect these wetlands, we are not doing enough. And if that's throwing the kitchen sink at it, that, too. Thank God for the general and the National Guard, who have stepped up to the plate and done more work than BP and the -- and the Coast Guard combined.
These guys, these men and women, have been out there on the front line. You can see the barriers they built that kept the oil out. Had we started with the barrier island plan when we asked for it, we would have 20 miles maybe built, and that is 20 miles of oil that will not infiltrate and kill the marsh.
SANCHEZ: Is that -- is that General Russel Honore, is that something that could be done from a military capacity? Could the National Guard be called in and said, you know what, you guys go to work, if we have got enough of them left, and see if you can build up some of these barrier islands?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL RUSSEL HONORE (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Yes.
Look, we got one of the best National Guard in the country here, and it's well-led. We got about 1,500 of them out as of yesterday. And this Guard can do a lot of that work. The problem is the coordination on the ground and the collaboration between the land forces and the sea forces with the Coast Guard. Look, that being said, Rick, all disasters are local. So, how do we make -- this parish president, Mr. Nungesser, we got to figure out how we start telling him yes.
SANCHEZ: Hmm.
HONORE: You want a barrier? OK, we will have a barrier. We will start building it tonight or tomorrow. I think that is the frustration that people are hearing, because they are tired. They see their requests going through a decision cycle, where everybody get to vote on it.
And one of the lessons I learned from Katrina, when a mayor or a parish president asked me for something, unless it is totally illegal -- and I never got asked that -- is give them what they ask for and do it as quickly as you can and respond to their needs.
SANCHEZ: Well --
HONORE: I think the frustration I hear from the governor and the parish president is like people are listening, but they are not acting. They are studying the problem. Over.
SANCHEZ: Well, are there enough resources to actually solve some of the problems? Have enough resources -- and this question goes to both of you.
General Honore we will begin with you and we will then go to Billy Nungesser.
Do you believe enough resources have been thrown at this problem, sir?
HONORE: From what I can see -- I have been down there about six days independently, going, riding around, and looking at the locals -- I think we need more of a command-and-control structure.
You need to have people of near equal stature as these parish presidents who come in with some authority and come in with equipment and come in with communications that can go from an oil spotting, before that oil hit the marsh, to getting equipment there to try to block it.
SANCHEZ: Hmm.
HONORE: And that's not happening right now. They are on a 24- to-48-hour cycle, because the process now is, we're going to send somebody out to assess the problem first, to verify what you have already seen.
And I'm telling you, Rick, that is not going to work. They need more command-and-control. Admiral Allen -- Allen is there today. I know him. When he sees this firsthand, I hope he is going to do what I know he can do, which is increase the command-and-control on the ground, so those parish presidents got somebody that can get stuff done for them. SANCHEZ: This parish president is Billy Nungesser. We take the question over to him now.
Do you agree, sir?
NUNGESSER: Well, let me tell you, hearing what he just said, I think the president has his man to take over this job.
He is exactly 100 percent on it. And I have seen him in action. And if the president of the United States wants to get the job done, the man on the phone right there is the man to do it.
SANCHEZ: Hmm. Well --
NUNGESSER: And you are exactly right, because you have got to have decision-makers on the ground. By the time you assess it, it is going to destroy the marsh.
And you -- you summed it up probably as good as anybody I have heard to this whole thing.
SANCHEZ: Billy Nungesser, we thank you, sir, for taking time to join us. We know you had a busy day today and had to account for some meetings as well.
And, as usual, General Russel Honore, we thank you, General, as well with.
HONORE: Well, hopefully, God pray, that this thing will be stopped quick as it can.
SANCHEZ: We will all pray together and keep our fingers crossed as well.
Thank you both.
Meanwhile, take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have already said all these chemicals are toxic that they are using you. And I don't understand why they are letting these people do this. The dead fish that was floating up out here yesterday, the pelicans were feeding on these fish.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: One man's account of the risky conditions near the Gulf oil spill. As of this morning, we started hearing there may be reasons now to be concerned for some of the workers out there who are trying to collect the oil and keep it away from the shores.
Are the fumes becoming a health hazard for them? How many are sick? And how sick might they get? These are all questions that I'm going to be asking Elizabeth Cohen. She is on the set. She is coming up now. And she is joining me, so we can take you through this part of the story as well.
This is your LIST, your national conversation. This is RICK'S LIST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Is it working, and is the cement now being put into this -- into this leak? It's what we want to know . And here's Thad Allen in a news conference. Let's go to it live.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
ADM. THAD ALLEN, COMMANDANT, U.S. COAST GUARD: -- staging area here for our forward operations. Got a brief. I participated in a congressional question-and-answer period where I talked to members of Congress about what's been going on.
The reason are I'm down here looking around is I'm certainly sensitive to a lot of the comments that have been made about the speed of the response down here and the onshore operations, and I feel it's my responsibility as the national incident commander to come down and take a look and talk to our people, see what's going right and see where we can improve. And we certainly want to make sure that the American public knows that we are committed to carrying out this oil spill response in the most effective and efficient manner possible. And I have got some good insights talking to our folks, and we will be taking those back and looking to make some changes on how we conduct business down here.
I think a couple of the things that are particularly interesting in Plaquemines Parish -- and you all are probably aware of this -- is the immense diversity of geography here, the remoteness of a lot of the areas that are sensitive. And some of the sequential ordering of resources and how we do command and control at the incident command post in Houma, we probably need to look at shoring those down, flattening the organization, and giving more autonomy to the local Coast Guard personnel here, and also allowing to interact with the parish presidents so they can be more responsive and cut the lifecycle, I would say, from the time we know there is oil approaching to where we put resources on scene to achieve the effect.
So it's been a very good trip. I will be leaving here.
I will be going up to Robert, Louisiana, to talk to our folks at the area unified command. And I will be joining the president tomorrow on his visit.
I would be glad to take any questions.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: Excuse me?
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: Let me clarify that.
I had made a statement that the mud that was being injected into the wellbore had suppressed the hydrocarbons. And there was somebody in the newsroom that was writing headlines over the story.
The mud was suppressing the hydrocarbons. And they are still pumping mud into the wellbore and they are still monitoring the situation with.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: You said, "Did they stop it?" No, I want to be perfectly clear here.
They are pumping mud into the wellbore, and as long as the mud is going down, the hydrocarbons are not coming up. The goal is to put enough mud into the wellbore to produce zero pressure so they can put a cement plug over it. They are still in the process of doing that.
So while I said the hydrocarbons had been stopped, that does not mean the exercise was over. Yes, exactly.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: Well, I need to go back and talk to the chain of command. I have got the incident commander here with me and we have been talking about that with our people. But there are already resources flowing this way. And in the coming days, I think I'll maybe let him get together and tell you the output. We need to sit down and plan what we with need to do to accomplish the effects we talked about.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: I think we need to work it out. I think in general, we need to have more freedom and flexibility of autonomy for our people down here and be more responsive to sightings by parish folks when they see something. It may be as much procedure as it resources.
QUESTION: To come back to top kill for a second, are you -- is it a success, can you say?
ALLEN: It is ongoing. It is ongoing.
QUESTION: Is it too early to say --
ALLEN: They said this could take 24 to 36 hours when it started, and they are in the process of monitoring it. They're pumping mud down the well. I think we just need to let that run its course and we'll see what happens.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) the oil that's actually coming out. How would you characterize (ph) that?
ALLEN: Yes, I would make a correction. Marcia McNutt, the head of the U.S. Geological Survey, headed a team called the Flow Rate Technical Group that I convened as a national incident commander. We needed to get a firm grip on the flow estimates. As you remember, early on, it was 1,000 barrels, it was 5,000 barrels. And I had said on many occasion, I didn't give any one of those estimates much credibility. And we went ahead and deployed the resources I thought we needed to for the response.
But in the long run, we have to assess the environmental impact. We have to understand the long-term impact on the water column and what this does to our natural resources.
And there is something called a natural resources damage assessment that is done after a spill that relates to how many claims can be placed and who should pay for that. So there is actually a legal requirement for us to know to the greatest extent possible exactly how much oil was spilled.
QUESTION: So, what do you make of (INAUDIBLE)?
ALLEN: I think we have a basis for making some estimates, and they're clearly described there. It's based on the video we've got, estimates on density of the leak, estimates on how effective the (INAUDIBLE) burning was, the mechanical skimming, he use of dispersants.
It is another estimate. It is a better estimate. It is more accurate, but it is a range.
And I would suggest we don't get too fixated on the amount. It could go down or go up, but it's something better than we had before.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE). We went out yesterday with the governor and the parish president, and they've been saying they don't see the Coast Guard or BP cleaning up the oil that's in the marsh there.
Can you tell us about that, sir?
ALLEN: Sure. One of the reasons I'm down here is to deal with the issue of oil in remote places and why that's not being responded to quicker. And that is exactly what I meant earlier about how we are going to get resources down here and put them on the problem set earlier on and be more effective in what we are doing. That is exactly what I meant.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: Well, I always thought from the beginning, when we had a mobile drilling unit, the capsize, in and of itself, it had 700,000 gallons of diesel fuel on board. And we have known for a long time we have a leak of some known magnitude that's been going on, say, 37 days now. By anybody's estimation, that is catastrophic. It needs to be dealt with as it is catastrophic.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: Well, was it important in the initial mobilization? Important in the long run? Absolutely. QUESTION: Would you consider it a change in policy (INAUDIBLE)?
ALLEN: Well, I consider it a change in policy. I consider it an absolute responsibility as a national incident commander to get the best flow rate estimates we can. I'm accountable for that.
QUESTION: Can you talk about some of the things that you found to be improved here with (INAUDIBLE)?
ALLEN: Well, we talked about a lot of things. One of them is how they procure boom, how we get it here, how quickly we get it here, how they make decisions, how they deploy the boom, how we interact with the parish presidents, how much autonomy is giving to the Coast Guard people down here. These are all things where you sit around, you have a cold drink, and you listen to your junior officers, you have a sandwich with them. And I think that's what leaders are supposed to do.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: I don't think there is any reason to believe that anybody knew exactly what was flowing out of those pipes to begin with.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: You kind of mixed three things together. You said Louisiana and National Guard, build barrier islands, and Coast Guard. If you give me the question, I will try and answer it.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: If you want to talk about the barrier islands, the state of Louisiana has submitted a request to the Corps of Engineers to build a series of barrier islands and berms. The Corps announced today that of the request that was submitted to them, they would approve six segments totaling about 45 miles.
I have said as a national incident commander we need to understand whether or not this is an effective oil spill response strategy to build barrier islands and berms. There is not universal agreement on that. What I did say was we would take one small segment of it and immediately start a prototype construction project and evaluate the rest of the projects in relation to that. And that's where we are.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: I'm reflecting the broad input we got through the interagency in Washington. Some of these projects are estimated to take six to nine months, some up to a year.
We are going to be doing construction where we might have oil coming ashore. We're not sure of the environmental impacts of closing openings.
I think there's some issue about the National Environmental Policy Act and how we need to do an environmental assessment associated with this. None of its insurmountable, but they are all open questions.
But rather than just say no way, I thought the prudent thing to do was start a prototype project and keep asking questions. And I have talked extensively with Governor Jindal on this, I've talked with Senator Vitter and Senator Landrieu.
QUESTION: The Army Corps has approved some of the --
ALLEN: Correct.
QUESTION: How long will it take to get the dredging in, and how long --
ALLEN: I've had that question. I would almost have to refer that to General Van Antwerp and the Corps of Engineers and how they would mobilize and get the projects going. And, in fact, since we just announced it today, I have had a number of questions. So we're going to have to get that information available, and we'll try to get that to you.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: Well, boom is not a silver bullet, nor it is a monolithic defense against oil. Booms can be defeated both over and under either by sea state or current, and then a change in the viscosity of the material that's out there. You know, tar balls actually sink and wash ashore, almost like seashells do. And so we shouldn't think that booming is an overall defense to protect either a marsh or a beach.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: I think it varies with the local conditions and where the oil started and how old the oil is. We talk about a term called the fate of the oil, and that's what happens to the oil when it's in water over time. It weathers and it changes its form. It becomes less toxic.
A lot of the evaporates off and it ends up just sometimes being just a sticky mass, either tar balls, or almost like a brown mousse. And that -- and sometimes that's easier to deal with and sometimes it's harder. And sometimes it can be boomed and sometimes it can't.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
Is there a Plan B -- you went to address the response time from the Coast Guard. Is there another plan besides laying boom out right now? Is it all for naught? Is there another plan besides laying boom? Because obviously it's not working (INAUDIBLE).
ALLEN: Well, there were a couple of concepts I think we need to talk about. And maybe I can paint a picture for you here.
When we're dealing with the oil that comes to the surface above the wellhead, we are looking at in situ burning, dispersants and mechanical skimming. If you are going to do that, you want the largest volume oil available. You want to capture it all up and burn as much, or skim as much.
So, 100 yards of oil right over the wellhead site might be just completely discounted for a square mile amount of oil in terms of these interventions. That 100 yards of oil, once it gets to five miles off shore, is more important, because when 100 yards of oil gets into the marsh, it's a lot more important than a large amount of oil offshore.
So, I think we need to go micro in our surveillance and our ability to respond to strands of oil that are anywhere between five and 12 miles offshore, come up with a finer way to conduct surveillance, and then queue shallow skimmers and ways to come out and deal with it before it even gets close to shore. I think there is an intermediate or a bridging strategy or a concept of operations rather than on-or-off switch that's either on shore or we're dealing above the wellhead, and those are the types of things we need to look.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: As far as I know, they are still back, and we're doing toxicology checks. You know, you can make the assumption it had something to do with the product on the water, but I don't think we know.
There were some pre-existing health conditions there. We took the precaution of evacuating two of the people by helicopter.
We are looking at -- we are doing samples on the clothes they were wearing. We're looking at the food they took out there. And we're going to come to the best conclusion we can about what happened. Of course, we are very, very concerned about their health, and that's the reason we pulled everybody off the water.
QUESTION: What type of safety equipment did they use? Were they wearing masks?
ALLEN: I would have to go back and check on the exact personal protective equipment they were using there, but we generally try to abide by OSHA standards. And anybody that's involved in this type of work has to have a minimum level of hazardous material handling training before they are allowed to be involved in it. As far as the personal protective equipment, I will have somebody follow up and get back to you.
QUESTION: If it comes back (INAUDIBLE) is that a sign that you should stop -- that BP should stop using this dispersant on the water that could have a long-term effect, if it comes back?
ALLEN: Yes, let me -- I think we may have a semantic issue here, because what I heard when I had the brief this morning, they talked about there being oil and being dispersants. The oil and dispersants wouldn't coexist together because the dispersants would be acting on the oil. I think there may be an interpretation that fated (ph), weathered oil may have been misunderstood and then called dispersants. And I think we are trying to look into that. We are not sure to a virtual certainty whether dispersants were involved or not.
QUESTION: A lot of these fishermen (INAUDIBLE), they're not wearing masks or gloves. These are fishermen who have been on the water their whole life. They're basically tossing boom off the side of boats.
I mean, would it be best practices for them to wear a mask or to wear gloves? Kind of after Katrina, when you go into your house, you'd have to put a mask on?
ALLEN: Well, I think in it matters whether or not they are in the proximity of oil. If you are doing preventive booming, and there's no product, and you're doing it in advance because you think it's coming, I'm not sure it's an issue.
But we have strict guidelines on the proximity of these volatile products and what they're supposed to wear in terms of personal protective equipment. We have OSHA people that are involved in the incident command, and they're watching this.
To my knowledge, we haven't had had an incident involving safety until this thing started until today. That's when you want to divide down to the bottom and find out what happened.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
What do you want the people in this area, in southeast Louisiana (INAUDIBLE) to know?
ALLEN: I'm the national incident responder and I'm accountable for this response, and I'm here.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: Not likely, but it may change ultimately how we deal with the links on the sub-surface. Now, I'm assuming that we are going to have to continue with leaks. I hope we would not have to and I hope top kill works.
If we're dealing with larger flows coming out of the pipes, then we need to figure out, what is the best way to attack that? Is it more use of sub-sea dispersants? Do we need to change our tactics on top? And we'll take a look at that, but we're hopeful that we can just stop this leak, which is what we really need to do.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
ALLEN: Well, if you watch the videos, you there is mud going down and there's mud going up. You know, they've been able to push the hydrocarbons down, but there is still mud coming out of the riser leak, which would indicate it's not all going down. And I believe there is another vessel headed that way with more mud. That's the reason I said it's a work in progress. We need to let it play itself out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have time for one more.
QUESTION: Admiral, have dispersants complicated the cleanup by dispersing and sort of making this oil more widespread?
ALLEN: That's a good question. I don't think it's just dispersants.
This is not a monolithic oil spill. There is not just a huge slick out there waiting to come ashore someplace, because the oil came to the surface in different wind and current conditions, and we may have done in situ burning or dispersants or mechanical skimming.
What we have is a collection of smaller spills within a 200-mile radius of southwest Passe. And the good news is, there are smaller sections of oil. The bad news, they're dispersed over a very wide area and could impact from Louisiana to the panhandle of Florida.
But what you don't have is a three-mile slick coming into Plaquemines Parish, which would be devastating. So, I guess to the extent that we have been successful at these attempts on scene to reduce the amount of oil out there, we are dealing with a much smaller problem than we would have otherwise.
Thank you, folks.
SANCHEZ: And there you have it, the admiral once again meeting with reporters and explaining where we stand right now.
Interestingly enough, there has been a lot of talk about -- with Russel Honore just a little while ago, for example, about just how many National Guardsmen are going to be sent down there. We just got this tweet that I would like to share with you, which we always follow as many tweets as we can.
Looking for those that are relevant to the news of the day, well, look at this. "Illinois National Guard soldiers depart for oil relief efforts."
So, the Illinois National Guard is heading to the Gulf of Mexico. It's official, because it's tweeted by them, the Illinois National Guard.
Let me bring our professor back in, Professor Satish.
You just listened to the admiral's explanation of what is going on in the Gulf. From what you were able to hear, was there any news there as far as the operation is concerned to try and stop the leak?
NAGARAJAIAH: I think there is some good news there. They are saying that the hydrocarbons are being contained in the well, which obviously only BP can make out, because, remember, you are seeing the tool which is stopping the leak on top and measuring the pressure. They may be measuring the content also, oil content and so on. So that's good news.
SANCHEZ: By hydrocarbons, Satish, does that mean oil?
NAGARAJAIAH: Oil and gas. That means oil and gas.
SANCHEZ: Yes. That's what we thought.
There was also a lot of conversation about what's left out there, all this residue that's in the Gulf of Mexico as a result of what we have seen of the spill so far.
Do you happen to know -- I know this may be out of your purview, but let me ask you anyway. Will that oil eventually in any way become part of the ocean itself or part of the Gulf itself, or will it always be separated and end up at some place somewhere?
NAGARAJAIAH: You know, I don't have expertise in this area, so I will defer.
SANCHEZ: Well, thank you for being honest, sir. We appreciate that.
We are going to be coming right back. We'll continue telling you about the stories that are coming in as a result of this.
And there's one piece of video that I want you to see. It's that point at which a lawmaker becomes more of a human being, a dad, a husband. Maybe most important of all, a Louisianan.
RICK'S LIST continues after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: I was struck by this just a little while ago when I first saw it. This is the -- I have been telling you that there's meetings going on in Washington, hearings that are taking place to try to determine what we about the situation in the Gulf and how to prevent this from happening in the future.
One of the committees that's meeting today is the House Subcommittee on Energy and Environment. And this is not a particularly salient news story, as it were, in terms of policy, or decisions, or regulations that they have come up with. It's something that happened at this hearing.
And Brooke Baldwin follows for us, as you know, all trending topics, and this is something people are talking about.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, we just got this piece of sound in. I remember seeing the e-mail come down, and some people were already talking about it. And it's not often you necessarily see politicians become emotional, right?
SANCHEZ: Yes.
BALDWIN: But we had this congressman out of Louisiana, Representative Charlie Melancon. And as you said, House Subcommittee on Energy and Environment. He was speaking and he teared up a little bit.
I want to play this clip for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHARLIE MELANCON (D), LOUISIANA: Our culture is threatened. Our coastal economy is threatened. And Everything that I know and love is at risk. Even though this marsh lies along coastal Louisiana, these are America's wetlands.
Excuse me. I just wish to submit for the record. Thank you.
We thank the gentleman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And every member of our committee and every American is praying for the people of Louisiana and the people of the Gulf. It's just an unimaginable tragedy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: I heard about that piece of sound. I didn't actually know he had to get up and walk away.
SANCHEZ: Everybody is talking about it.
BALDWIN: Everybody is talking about that.
SANCHEZ: It shows a side of a man who is a politician, but in that moment, he was more than a politician. I mean, he was somebody --
BALDWIN: He was a Louisianan.
SANCHEZ: Exactly.
BALDWIN: You know? That's his heartland.
SANCHEZ: Yes. He is being affected by something that's happening. And I'm sure there is a lot of people watching around the country who all, in that moment, as they were watching that, it's almost like they were all Louisianans.
BALDWIN: Absolutely.
SANCHEZ: Because they've got to be affected boy something like that. I'll tell you.
Thank you, Brooke.
BALDWIN: You're welcome.
SANCHEZ: We're going to come back in just a moment and we're going to share with you one of the -- well, picking a specific person affected by this, having to do with this story, who do you think it is? Just one person.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Programming note. I'm going to be joining you tonight, here at 8:00, for a special edition of the "CAMPBELL BROWN" show. I'm going to be bringing you the very latest on what is going on in the Gulf with our correspondents and all the experts, many of which have been following this story for the last three weeks.
Now, let's see, the worst environmental disaster in this country's history happens on your watch. And, oh, you're in charge of the watchdog agency that's supposed to prevent this from happening in the first place. About how long do you think you would be able to keep your job?
This is "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On."
We are talking about Elizabeth Birnbaum, the head of the Minerals Management Service, until, oh, about seven hours ago. Did she quit? Was she fired? It depends on who you ask.
The president said no, but he did say she is gone. We do know that her brief time at MMS was riddled with charges of corruption. Critics call the agency practically dysfunctional. But the problems started well before Birnbaum's arrival.
Back in 2008, an inspector general report found sweetheart contract deals, illicit sex activities between the agency and companies.
Now, we don't know if Elizabeth Birnbaum knew about any of this stuff, but she was in charge. She was in charge when BP's operation led to that leak in the Gulf of Mexico. And that's why she, today, makes "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Professor Satish, are you there, sir?
NAGARAJAIAH: Yes, I am.
SANCHEZ: I have one thing to say to you -- thank you.
NAGARAJAIAH: My pleasure, Rick. It's been a great pleasure to be on your show, and I really enjoyed it.
SANCHEZ: Thank you, sir. And I say that on behalf of all of us at CNN and all the thousands of people who have been tweeting saying, boy, that guy really knows his stuff.
I congratulate you.
Now Wolf Blitzer is standing by. He's in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
