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BP CEO Testifies on Capitol Hill; Interview With Georgia Congressman Phil Gingrey
Aired June 17, 2010 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:-- shallow water, 10,000 pounds per square inch, deepwater, 15,000 pounds per square inch.
Now, I'm not an expert. I don't know. Why? What's the difference as you go into depth? Why a greater capacity?
TONY HAYWARD, CEO, BP GROUP: Well, because of the pressure of the reservoirs that we're drilling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which then leads me to the logical -- what do you think you're dealing with at that depth?
HAYWARD: We know that...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as pounds per square inch?
HAYWARD: We know that we're dealing with a reservoir with a pressure of around 11,000 -- between 11,000 and 12,000 bounds per square inch. And we have a blowout preventer rated to 15,000 pounds per square inch. I believe that's correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
Cameron made -- I don't know if it's Cameron that builds these blowout preventers. That's a company that someone told me that's -- and they are working on a 20,000-pound-per-square-inch preventer. I mean, you're aware of that.
HAYWARD: I am, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And -- and they actually said this. "While there's much discussion and an ongoing effort to provide guidance for equipment greater than 15,000 pounds per square inch, in the interest of expediency, it was decided within Cameron to apply current design codes and practices. The 20,000-pound-per-square-inch EVO blowout preventer was design, tested, and qualified to API" -- and I'm not sure what all that means -- 16A, third edition," meaning, basically -- but "for the sake of expediency" does concern me.
Why are you all looking at 20,000 pounds per square inch, when you believe what you already have at 15,000 exceeds what you -- really is required?
HAYWARD: I think that's referring -- I'm not certain, but I think that's referring to blowout preventers for reservoirs with even greater pressure.
I do believe that one of the most important things to come from this incident is the requirement for the industry to step back and redesign the failsafe mechanism it uses to prevent accidents of this sort. We -- we need a fundamental redesign of the blowout preventer.
It's something that BP is going to take a very active role in. We have already begun that process with a number of academic institutions and a number of contractors in the industry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I -- I thank the (INAUDIBLE) for his patience.
Mr. Hayward, we usually say better late than never, but not this time. I yield back.
REP. BART STUPAK (D), MICHIGAN: Mr. Gonzalez, before -- before Mr. Inslee, we should, for the record, record-keeping, Mr. Scalise had submitted a C.D. and a resolution there from the state senate. He will provide copies for the record, so, with unanimous consent, they will be made part of his questioning and be made part of the record within 10 days.
Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Inslee, questions, please.
REP. JAY INSLEE (D), WASHINGTON: Thank you.
Mr. Hayward, something you said earlier was really quite astounding to me. You said that there was no evidence to date that there had been any decision made based on cost, that no decisions had been made in an effort to reduce costs.
And I want to go through this, because there's something I think that's quite pivotal in this investigation. The facts are clear that you hired Halliburton to give you advice about this. Mr. Gagliano, an expert in the field, did an analysis and concluded you needed 21 centralizers to make sure that this rig was safe.
And just to make any -- relieve any doubt as to why that's important, the American Petroleum Institute recommended practice 65 says -- quote -- "If casing is not centralized, it may lead -- lay near or against the bore hole -- bore hole wall. It is difficult, if not impossible, to displace mud effectively from the narrow side of the annulus if casing is poorly centralized. This results in bypassed mud channels and inability to achieve zonal isolation" -- close quote.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to continue to monitor these hearings and get back to them in just a little bit.
I want to bring in Candy Crowley now.
Candy, I asked you moments ago if Joe Barton is going to get any sort of, you know, feedback or under any pressure here, and now you have some news for us. CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
CROWLEY: Well, first of all, we also talked a little earlier about how you really don't want to be on the side of BP at this point for any reason.
And I can tell you that Congressman Joe Barton did put out a statement. Now, it's slightly different from what we just heard. We talked about how he said, well, I just want everyone to know I think BP does have responsibility, but he stopped short of an apology.
Here's what he's put out in a written statement: "I apologize for using the term shakedown with regard to yesterday's actions at the White House in my opening statement this morning, and I retract my apology to BP. As I told my colleagues yesterday and said again this morning, BP should bear the full responsibility for their accident on their lease in the Gulf of Mexico."
So, lots of pressure in Republican circles, up on Capitol Hill, this statement being sent around -- John King sending it and getting it from Boehner, who is certainly the top Republican on the House side, John Boehner sending this around, letting people know, look, he apologized, because, again, you don't want to be, at this particular point, on the side of BP against the administration, because, if there's anything the American public looks at right now and has become the -- the -- sort of the focus of that anger, it's BP.
And Republicans don't want to be in the position of being labeled sort of big corporate people. And that's what had happened. When Joe Barton was out there saying, I apologize -- I -- for that shakedown at the White House, immediately, we just got...
LEMON: Yes.
CROWLEY: ... we got blanketed with e-mails saying, you know, here -- here are the Republicans again on the side of corporations.
So, they wanted to nip that one in the bud. And, certainly, the Republican leadership prevailed on that one.
LEMON: As I sit here and I'm reading this -- and, again, he's saying over and over BP is responsible. He says that a lot in this statement, Candy -- how big a gaffe, if you can call it a gaffe, how big of a gaffe is this? Because the Republicans are looking forward to November now. Is it a big enough gaffe to affect November at all, or, by then, this will all be for naught?
CROWLEY: My guess is that there are bigger-picture things that will move the meter more come November. The economy still is what -- as -- as huge as this is, as catastrophic as this is, people still don't have jobs out there, with an unemployment rate close to 10 percent.
There is some shakiness in the markets. There's a lot of things going on. We're going to see a lot of activity in Afghanistan and Iraq over the summer. So, I think there are other big-picture things that are going to move it.
LEMON: Mm-hmm.
CROWLEY: But, if you're in a district, and somebody is listening to you say that on TV, that could hurt you in your specific district, if you're Joe Barton, but he's -- you know, still looks pretty safe. I wouldn't think it was catastrophic.
LEMON: I would say a blip on the radar, but, certainly, I will bet you that you will be talking about this on Sunday morning, Candy Crowley...
CROWLEY: I think so.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: ... about these hearings and about that. Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: OK.
Candy, we will get back to you in just a little bit.
So, stand by. We're monitoring these hearings in Washington, the CEO of BP really getting a grilling on Capitol Hill today by a congressional subcommittee.
The interesting thing though, as you look at all of the Brits and all of the people from overseas who are involved in this, this story might be playing a little bit differently over the seas or across -- overseas or across the pond, as they say. How is it playing? What are the Brits saying about this?
As we monitor these hearings, we are going to come back, watch them. Then we're going to talk about that as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: It is time to pick up the pace today on the LIST of those of you who are just now checking in.
So, topping the list: BP and its underwater oil gusher. One day after BP gets grilled at the White House, the oil giant's top executives appeared before Congress. He's there now, speaking live, where lawmakers took their own shots.
I want you to listen to just a little bit of the venom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. BETTY SUTTON (D), OHIO: I feel physically sick when I see the clips of the oil gushing in the Gulf.
This culture of carelessness and taking shortcuts to maximize profits at the expense of safety...
STUPAK: We have learned that, time after time, BP had warning signs that this was, as one employee put it, "a nightmare well." BP made choices that set safety aside, in exchange for cost-cutting and time-saving decisions.
REP. JAN SCHAKOWSKY (D), ILLINOIS: Killing animals, destroying fragile wetlands and wiping out entire populations of fish and, along with it, the jobs of hundreds of thousands of people.
BP executives created an atmosphere where safety concerns were ignored in order to ensure that the company's already staggering profits this year, approximately $93 million a day in the first quarter, continued unabated. This appalling disregard for the Gulf Coast and its inhabitants is without question one of the most shameful acts by a corporation in American history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And perhaps one of, if not moment of the day, there's this guy, Republican Joe Barton of Texas. Barton took it upon himself to apologize to BP's Tony Hayward.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOE BARTON (R), TEXAS: I'm only speaking for myself. I'm not speaking for anybody else. But I apologize. I do not want to live in a country where any time a citizen or a corporation does something that is legitimately wrong is subject to some sort of political pressure that is -- again, in my words, amounts to a shakedown. So I apologize.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: "Shakedown. I apologize." Really, an apology to BP, well, for making them pay for what their runaway oil gusher is doing down in the Gulf of Mexico?
It turns out the congressman was, at the very least, uncomfortable with that comment and scaled things back just a short time ago, way back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARTON: I want the record to be absolutely clear that I think BP is responsible for this accident, should be held responsible, and should in every way do everything possible to make good on the consequences that have resulted from this accident.
And if anything I have said this morning has been misconstrued in an opposite effect, I want to apologize for that misconstrued -- misconstruction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And just one thing, one more thing we want to apologize -- excuse me -- we want to point out to here and we want you to listen to is how Representative Henry Waxman deals with Hayward's efforts to play the humbled CEO role.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HENRY WAXMAN (D-CA), GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hayward, when you became CEO three years ago, you said that safety was going to be your top priority. You would focus on it like a laser.
Your Web site said, "Safe and reliable operations are integral to BP's success."
I want to ask you whether you think BP has met that commitment that you made when you became CEO.
HAYWARD: Since I became CEO, we have made a lot of progress. We have made it very clear to everyone in the company that safe, reliable...
(CROSSTALK)
WAXMAN: Have you met that...
(CROSSTALK)
WAXMAN: ... commitment that you made?
HAYWARD: And we have made major changes. We have made major changes to our...
(CROSSTALK)
WAXMAN: You have made major changes.
(CROSSTALK)
WAXMAN: But now we see this disaster in the Gulf.
(CROSSTALK)
WAXMAN: Does that indicate that you didn't keep that commitment?
HAYWARD: And one of the reasons that I am so distraught...
(CROSSTALK)
WAXMAN: Could you answer yes or no?
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWARD: ... is that...
WAXMAN: I don't want to know whether you're distraught. I want to know whether you think you have kept your commitment.
HAYWARD: We have focused like a laser on safe and reliable operations. That is a fact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What a day on Capitol Hill, definitely riveting television.
So, we got to wondering, if the British are watching, what do they make of all this? After all, BP may have dropped the British from its name, but, to many, that's what the B. in BP still stands for, British.
Jim Boulden covers -- Boulden -- covers all things British for us. And he's in London.
Jim, what's the reaction there? Are -- are most eyes on the World Cup, or are people paying attention to this?
JIM BOULDEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I would say most eyes are probably on the World Cup. It did -- when Mr. Hayward finally got around to getting to answer some questions, it was rush hour here.
We -- we were able to speak to a few people who said they watched it, and you get a mixed reaction here, because they see BP, of course, as a big international company. And some people are feeling a little bit sorry for him. But they understand that BP is responsible, they certainly understand, the -- the disaster in the Gulf. Don't -- don't get wrong -- get me wrong there.
The interesting thing will be to see how the tabloids handle it tomorrow. I think Congressman Barton's comment would have been the top of the line -- the red caps, if -- as it were, if he hadn't come out and apologized. That would have been an interesting comment they would have picked up on here.
But I think even more interesting really is that you haven't heard anyone say British, I think, in this hearing. I was listening for the last couple of hours, and they seemed to have moved away from that rhetoric a little bit now. So there's a little bit of a lingering feeling here, but now I think it's -- it's more to do with what can BP do to clean this up, and a lot of people here are very worried about it.
LEMON: Yes, I'm sure. And I wonder if people there, though, are going to think it's sort of a cheap shot, because, you know, he really got grilled today, and there was one moment there where someone said, you're not answering the questions. Do you know what day it is? Do you know it's Thursday? And he goes, yes, I know it's -- it's Thursday. And he kind of winced a little bit.
How do you think that's going to play there?
BOULDEN: Yes, you know, they are not used to their -- they're used to their politicians going up before in Parliament. You know what that is like, when they shout at each other for two hours. They're not used to that with their businesspeople. But Tony Hayward is not very well known in the U.K., let's be honest. He came in a few years ago to replace the very popular Lord Browne, who was a member of the House of Lords, very well-known patrician man who had been around forever.
And this guys is an engineer, and he's kept a low profile, very rarely does interview before this incident, and not somebody very well-known. And, of course, now he's been spending all his time on the -- in the U.S., so he hasn't question been in the U.K. very much.
So he's not a public figure in -- on this side. So, there was some worry that there was a bit of Brit bashing going on, but the prime minister here has said very clearly he didn't see that. And when he and Mr. Obama spoke over the weekend, they seemed to have a very cordial conversation.
So -- so, the -- sort of rhetoric has lessened a little bit, certainly.
LEMON: All right, Jim Boulden joining us now.
Thank you very much for that, Jim. I lost him there just for a second.
Hey, listen, we want to go now to Steve Wereley from Purdue University. He's a professor of mechanical engineering.
Mr. Wereley, thank you for joining us. Have you been able to pay attention to these hearings at all?
STEVEN WERELEY, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF MECHANICAL ENGINEERING, PURDUE UNIVERSITY: Unfortunately, I haven't. I have had a lot to do with keeping track of the flow rate.
LEMON: Listen, there have been lots of questions about the blowout blowout -- preventer, about all the systems that were in place down there.
And Tony Hayward says, when they are digging these relief wells, that all of those precautions are being taken, although the relief wells are different here.
What might he mean about all those precautions are being taken as far as drilling those two relief wells?
WERELEY: Well, I think one thing that could potentially happen here is the same thing that happened to the -- the first well could happen to either of the two relief wells, which is there could be another blowout.
I wouldn't expect that, because the gas has a path to the surface through the -- the blown-out well, you know, the already leaking well. But, you know, potentially there's some risk involved in drilling these wells.
LEMON: Some risk in the relief wells as well, and... WERELEY: Yes, that's what I mean.
LEMON: Yes. So, it's interesting, so if they drill these relief wells and then that goes wrong, then what happens after that? How do you -- how do you shut that off? That would be the question.
WERELEY: I -- more relief wells, I suppose.
LEMON: More relief wells. All right.
WERELEY: Yes.
LEMON: So, listen, what are we up to today? Do we know? Fifty thousand, 60,000, 70,000 barrels a day? Do we know how much? We have those sensors in there now, but do you know really how much oil is gushing out of there?
WERELEY: I think we have a really good idea. And I think the public has been a little confused -- and probably rightly so -- about these -- these numbers that have continually risen over the last few weeks.
The goal of the flow rate technical group is to provide quick numbers to direct the response. And so we came out with a statement, this 12,000-to-19,000-barrels-a-day statement, just to get something on the record that it's not 5,000 and to help the responders.
And then that went up again, and then again on Tuesday. And -- but the number that came out Tuesday, I think, is a really solid number. It unifies...
LEMON: Yes, but, you know...
WERELEY: Yes.
LEMON: ... from 10,000 to 12,000 to 50,000, 60,000, 70,000, that's a big difference. And, at these rates, how much oil are we talking about right now in the Gulf of Mexico, possibly?
WERELEY: Well, you're right. These -- these rates, these are very different rates. And that 12,000-to-19,000 number, that came from looking at the size of the oil slick on the surface.
And, as you know, there have been lots of dispersants used. And so perhaps measuring the oil on the surface isn't the right way to go. So, the new numbers, the 35,000 to 60,000 barrels a day, that's based on measuring the flow right out of the end of the pipe using three different methods. And so these three different methods give us an improved sense of confidence in the numbers.
LEMON: So, how much are we talking right now?
WERELEY: Thirty-five thousand to 60,000 barrels per day.
LEMON: Per day, but, overall, after...
WERELEY: Oh, total.
LEMON: ... 59, almost 60 days, what do you think we're looking at?
WERELEY: Yes. So, in principle, the flow rate of the well could change from day to day. And I think, normally, you would see that. You would see that the well would flow fast at the beginning and slower towards the end as it empties out.
LEMON: Mm-hmm.
WERELEY: But, right now, we just have this one number, this one range, 35,000 to 60,000. So I would use that as an estimate for the whole range and just multiply that times the numbers of days.
LEMON: All right, Steve Wereley, thank you very much. And all we can say, you don't even have to do the math. That's a whole heck of a lot of...
WERELEY: That's right. It's a big number.
LEMON: It's a big number, a whole heck of a lot of oil, too much, really, going in.
WERELEY: Yes.
LEMON: And, of course, any amount would be too much.
Our thanks to Steve Wereley from -- from Purdue University, a mechanical engineer there.
Listen, as we look at -- live at this water that is just pouring and pouring into the Gulf of Mexico, 35,000 on up to 70,000 barrels a day going into the Gulf, this hearing lasts one day. So, as Tony Hayward is being grilled there on Capitol Hill, that's how much oil is going into the Gulf of Mexico and will be for days, until they get it capped.
We're going to check back in on the hearings in Washington.
In the meantime, the LIST scrolls on.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Back to the hearings now.
Henry Waxman questioning Tony Hayward.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
WAXMAN: ... the -- you and other senior officials seemed oblivious to what was happening on the Deepwater Horizon rig. You weren't following the progress of the well. You weren't aware of the risks that were being taken.
In answers to questions, you have said that your top officials under you, Mr. Inglis and Mr. Suttles, you would be surprised if they were following the happenings on the rig. You said you couldn't answer for them, but you would be surprised if they had been following the activities on the drilling rig.
So, who was following the activities on the drilling rig? You said there were people there who were the experts in their field. I -- I just find it shocking that -- that, when the potential consequences of a mistake on a deepwater rig are so enormous, and you have such a high, passionate commitment to safety, that you seem so removed.
I think operating in a deepwater environment is like operating in outer space, and yet you seem to think that all is going to be taken care of in time.
Now, you said there's a team of the best minds in the world working on how to stop the oil spill. Where were the best minds in your company paying attention before the spill? You were oblivious. And so were other senior officials. And I think this was a fundamental mistake in management.
Let me ask you that. Do you think there was a fundamental mistake in management not to know?
HAYWARD: I think, as I have said, that we have made it very clear that the focus in the company is on safety.
What management can do is ensure that the right people with the right skills are in place, the right systems and processes are in place, and the right priorities are in place, and the right investment is available to ensure that the plant that we are operating has integrity.
WAXMAN: So, you felt confident that the people that were making these decisions -- and we went through five in our letter to you, and many members asked you about some of these decisions -- that the right people were making those decisions?
HAYWARD: I believe that the right people were making those decisions.
WAXMAN: And you have no evidence they didn't make the right decision. That seems to be your position today. Is that right?
HAYWARD: I think, at this stage in the investigation, it's premature to draw conclusions as to what and was not the right decision.
WAXMAN: OK. So, it's premature.
What investigations -- what investigation or investigations are taking place to determine these facts?
HAYWARD: There is the BP investigation. There's a Marine Board investigation, and the presidential commission.
WAXMAN: And are you going to be cooperating with all of them?
HAYWARD: We are, as we have, Mr. Chairman, cooperated with your committee.
WAXMAN: Well, I -- I -- I would question how cooperative you have been with our committee, because I have heard very little answers to the questions from you today to the questions raised by our -- our colleagues.
When you were asked whether BP made a mistake in well design, you said you haven't reached a conclusion yet. When Mr. Dingell asked whether costs were a factor in your decisions, you said you didn't know because you weren't there. When Mr. Doyle asked you who made the well design decisions, you said you didn't know.
Our committee is doing an investigation. Now, the reason we're doing an investigation is, we want to know how this happened, so that we can make changes in the law and the procedures if we're going to allow further drilling.
Don't you think you ought to be more forthcoming with us?
HAYWARD: Well, we will be at forthcoming as we can be, Mr. Chairman.
WAXMAN: OK. Give me -- give me the time horizon for your investigation. When will you have that completed? You have already had 60 days to do it. Is it going on now?
HAYWARD: It's ongoing. And we want to have access to all of the evidence before we make final determinations. But, as we have made very clear...
(CROSSTALK)
WAXMAN: Give me -- give me an estimate of when that will be concluded.
HAYWARD: Well, one of the most important elements in this is the blowout preventer. It remains on the seabed, and it needs to be examined.
WAXMAN: OK. So, we will put that aside.
How about the other decisions before -- before the explosion, about the casing, about the centering of the -- of the well, about all the other things that have been raised? Have you reached any tentative conclusions that you could share with us?
HAYWARD: As we shared with you recently, we have identified seven areas that are areas of focus in our investigation, and we will continue to share our understanding and our thinking with you as that develops.
LEMON: All right. Henry Waxman questioning Tony Hayward there, Tony Hayward, of course, the CEO of BP, speaking in front of that subcommittee in Washington.
Listen, we want to get some response here from people who are paying attention to this.
I want to go now to Representative Phil Gingrey of Georgia.
Mr. Gingrey, you have been listening in on these hearings. And I'm sure you have been talking about it with your colleagues. What you make of what is going on? Do you think that Congress is getting some answers from Tony Hayward?
REP. PHIL GINGREY (R), GEORGIA: Well, Don, I'm a member of the committee, and, obviously, it's a little frustrating that he seems somewhat evasive to all their questions from -- from both sides of the aisle.
I would take away from that hearing that BP is dumbs and our administration is all thumbs. The administration has responded way too slowly to the cleanup effort, as our governors and our parish presidents along the coast of Louisiana have attested to.
So, it's been a pretty frustrating day.
LEMON: Frustrating. I heard someone say that it was an insult to their intelligence, the way Tony Hayward was answering these questions.
GINGREY: Well, like I say, his response was all dumbs, and it was somewhat of an insult to our intelligence.
Obviously, he's being a little bit evasive. We're not getting very much information out of him.
LEMON: What would you like...
GINGREY: But when I -- when I talk about the response...
LEMON: What would you like to hear from him? More specifics? He said he had an engineer, I think he said a structural engineer or some sort of engineer, that could answer questions better for him, but he was not calling on that person, that expert, to come in.
So, what specifically would you like to hear from him?
GINGREY: Well, I think you're right. I think the engineer that's sitting behind them, the team of engineers, are there for that purpose, and he could certainly turn and ask them, take 10 seconds to get the information to respond to our questions. But I don't think we're going to get anything out of this CEO today.
They are being very, very cautious and very, very careful. And it's a little frustrating. But let me take an opportunity to say that I think the response of our administration has been totally unprioritized (ph). As an example, if you had hundreds of people lining the streets of our country, hemorrhaging from stab wounds, I would hope the first response, the first priority, would be to get doctors and paramedics there to stop the hemorrhaging and save lives, instead of calling Congress in an emergency session to ban knives. It just doesn't make any sense the way our administration is responding.
LEMON: OK. It's interesting, but besides, unfortunately, the men who lost their lives on the Deepwater Horizon, no one has died down in the Gulf on this, except for animals, which is horrific in itself.
Listen, I want to talk to you about one of your colleagues right now, about Joe Barton. You heard his comments this morning, basically saying it was a shakedown that the president did with the people at BP yesterday in that meeting, asking them for the money, for escrow for the people down South, and he had to come back and apologize.
Do you think his comments were insensitive?
GINGREY: Don, I think he was right to apologize. I think that his comments did come across as being insensitive.
I think I understood what he was trying to say, but obviously the BP executive, the CEO, sat down with the president, and there was an agreement to set up this $20 billion escrow fund. No gun was held to the head of the BP executive.
So, I think our ranking member, Barton, was wrong in his statement. And I think he did the right thing in regard to apologizing and trying to make that -- clarify that remark this afternoon.
I commend him for that. Joe Barton is a good member. He's a traditionalist. He's well respected on both sides of the aisle.
LEMON: Listen, I'm going to let you finish. There's him now live, and he is asking Tony Hayward some questions.
And while I have you here, I just want to tell you -- and it's going to take a little bit to do this -- you that said he's a respectful ranking member, but we have researched Congressman Barton, and today we learned that since 2007, he's accepted more than $300,000 from the oil and gas industry. That's a whole lot of money. In fact, it's more than six times as much as the average member of that Energy Subcommittee, and more than 50 times as much as Committee Chairman Henry Waxman.
So is there -- you know, the question here is, he is grilling Tony Hayward, but in some way is he being, I don't know, disingenuous by not saying, you know, how much money he has received, or maybe some might think that that's the reason that he apologized to BP, because he likes the oil industry? GINGREY: Well, Don, I guess it's a fair comment for you to bring up, and you have those figures in regard to the contributions of Joe Barton. Maybe you also have the total number of contributions that were made to then-candidate Senator Obama when he was running for the presidency.
LEMON: I understand that. I understand that, and we will get those figures, but that's not what we're talking about today.
He is being spoken to -- or is being asked questions by a subcommittee. And the person who apologized to the BP chairman today was Joe Barton. So that's the reason we're bringing it up here today. So, I understand what you're saying here --
GINGREY: Well, certainly, I understand that.
LEMON: -- but I think it's a bit of apples and oranges. That's not why I brought you here. I just thought our viewers should know that.
So, listen, as you go back into these hearings today, and you have the chance to possibly speak again and ask questions to Tony Hayward, what are you going to ask him, especially about what you're saying to me here on television about being transparent and about giving some answers not only to you, but to the American people?
GINGREY: Well, I'm going to insist on transparency. And I'm going tell him in no uncertain terms that he is fully responsible for the environment, for the lives, for the cleanup along the Gulf Coast. And as he has pledged, every legitimate claim needs to be honored.
And that's why I'm glad that we have this escrow account, the $20 billion, so the American people, particularly those who have been so adversely affected, especially the families of the 11 that lost their lives, will know that at least there will be compensation for their loss of life and their loss of income, and the future risk of the environmental tragedy that occurred. I mean, he needs to be forthright with the American people.
LEMON: OK. So, listen, let's get back to the news of the day. And we talked about Joe Barton. This will be my last question for you.
With the ranking members, as far as the ranking members, is this over? Is this a done deal because he's apologized, or is there going to be some talking to, to Joe Barton, after this?
GINGREY: Well, you know, members of every stripe -- back bench, leadership, Republicans, Democrats on occasion will have a little foot in mouth disease and will say something that they really realize came out the wrong way. And I think that they should be given an opportunity to apologize and retract their statement, especially a member like Joe Barton, who is a traditionalist.
He's been in the House many years. He's really a great human being. And I think members on both sides of the aisle would agree with that.
LEMON: Representative Phil Gingrey of Georgia, thank you very much. And thank you for your candor and your transparency as well. We appreciate you coming here on CNN. So, get back in those hearings and do some service to the American people.
We appreciate it.
GINGREY: Don, thank you so much. I'll do just that.
LEMON: And we're going to continue to monitor those hearings happening today on Capitol Hill. Tony Hayward, man, what a day. Unbelievable television.
I hope you have been watching, and I hope you stay tuned.
We're going to be back in just a bit. We're going to get back to those hearings. We're also going to bring in Candy Crowley, who is the host of CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION," for her perspective on this as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. So, listen, Michael Brune is the executive director of the Sierra Club. He has been down in the Gulf of Mexico touring, trying to figure out how he can help as the executive director of the Sierra Club.
What did you see when you were down there? Obviously, most people who see it are shocked by it.
MICHAEL BRUNE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, SIERRA CLUB: Yes. You know, it's actually worse. If you can imagine this, it's actually worse than what you see on TV.
When you get out into the water and you just smell the viscosity of this oil, and you see thousands -- hundreds of thousands of globs of thick, gooey oil, and you get these brown pelicans that are so drenched they can't lift up off the water, you talk to some of the shrimpers and oyster fishermen who have lost their livelihoods, it's really devastating. There's no other way to describe it. It's heartbreaking.
LEMON: And you talked about the birds and the pelicans, and all of those animals being cleaned up. And it is heartbreaking to see that, and there's probably only going to be more, just to be quite honest here.
Do you think that they can survive? Because what we've heard from most experts is that the survival rate, not very good for those animals once they come in contact with the oil.
BRUNE: No, and that's what's so heartbreaking about the whole situation, is, you know -- so, we saw these pelicans that are really just stranded, and we didn't see any boats, by the way. We saw zero boats, Coast Guard, BP boats. Nothing was out there. But even when they are rescued, you know that the survival rate is really, really low. And as you say, this situation will only get worse before it gets better. And it will take a very long time before we see any significant improvement.
LEMON: Listen, and you went down there, and the reason you're a member of the Sierra Club is because I'm sure you want a change in policy when it comes to clean energy and guidelines and all of that. So, Michael, I'm going to play a little of what President Obama had to say about oil and energy policy in his Oval Office speech on Tuesday night, and then we're going to show an ad from the Sierra Club that ran last week.
BRUNE: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The tragedy unfolding on our coast is the most painful and powerful reminder yet that the time to embrace a clean energy future is now. Now is the moment for this generation to embark on a national mission to unleash America's innovation and seize control of our own destiny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, last week, the Sierra Club ran this ad in "The Hill" calling President Obama to provide more leadership. What do you think of the president's Oval Office speech and his response?
Michael?
BRUNE: It's good in the sense that the president is seeing we need to break our dependence on oil. But what we're not seeing is a clear timeline, nor are we seeing what all of Americans can do.
For those of us who are watching this unfold in the Gulf, many people, millions of Americans, want to know how they can help. What can we do to break our dependence on oil? And we need the president to declare we can get off oil within this generation, and then mobilize the millions of people who actually want to help solve this problem, both down in the Gulf, but also deal with the actual symptoms and the underlying cause of this disaster, which is our undying dependence on dirty fuels.
LEMON: And bearing pressure on the administration and officials to do it. How will you do that?
BRUNE: Well, let's remember that during the campaign, candidate Obama inspired millions of people to believe in democracy and the power of citizen action to effect great change. Right now we're seeing the president start to get his voice and start to get his feet to address what's happening in the Gulf, but we need to return the favor as Americans and inspire the president to actually lead this country to get off oil once and for all.
We have to bring justice to the Gulf. We have to clean up this mess to the extent that we can. We have to help all of the communities that have been affected by this disaster. But we must, as a country, unite towards a common purpose and break our addiction to oil once and for all.
The only thing that can be positive out of such a national tragedy is if we draw the right lessons and we prevent these things from happening in the future. The only way we can prevent it is to get off oil, and oil is -- the time to get off oil has certainly come.
LEMON: All right. Thank you.
Michael Brune, executive director of the Sierra Club.
We appreciate it.
BRUNE: Thanks.
LEMON: And listen, you heard the Republican response from a member of the subcommittee, the Oversight and Investigation Subcommittee there, questioning Tony Hayward on Capitol Hill today. Now we're going to hear from a Democrat and get her response. She's a member of that committee as well.
Her take on what Tony Hayward is doing. Is he answering the questions on Capitol Hill today?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. It is time now for the Democratic side, and Congresswoman Diana DeGette of Colorado joins us now.
Before we get to Tony Hayward, what do you make of Joe Barton's apology?
REP. DIANA DEGETTE (D), COLORADO: Well, I think Congressman Barton was under a lot of pressure to apologize. What he said was absolutely appalling to not just to the members of the committee, but to all of us.
I agree with my colleague, Mr. Gingrey, who was speaking. Joe is a great guy, but I think he really meant it. I think he disagrees with this fund. And I'm appalled by that, because I think the fund is the only way we're going to get quick and full restitution for all the victims of BP's negligence.
LEMON: So, then, why, then, if you say that he was under a lot of pressure to apologize for his apology to BP, then why bow to the pressure of the leadership? He's a big guy. He's been doing this for a while
DEGETTE: He has been doing this for a while, but I think people realized how shocking this would be to the American public. So, you know, he -- Joe doesn't call me for advice about what he should say. He's a straight shooter.
No, seriously. He's a friend, he's a straight shooter. He says what he thinks. I respect that even though I don't always agree with what he says, like today.
LEMON: All right.
Well, let's turn now to the focus of what's going on in Washington, and that is the CEO of BP, Tony Hayward, who now you see him talking there and being asked questions by the representative from Texas there.
Here's what I want to know. Speaking to Mr. Gingrey, Phil Gingrey, who came on before you, he said it was frustrating and in some ways an insult to his intelligence and the members of the committee's intelligence because they weren't getting answers.
Do you feel the same way as a member?
DEGETTE: I do. I agree with Mr. Gingrey.
I think Mr. Hayward was under absolute notice as to what questions he would be asked today. He was sent an exhaustive letter by the chairman of the committee detailing the areas that we wanted to know about and detailing negligence. Mr. Hayward came in and he basically said he didn't know about this well, he didn't know what happened, and he would refuse to comment about all of the different problems in the well -- the casing, the cement bonding, all of the problems that went wrong because an investigation was ongoing.
LEMON: And Congresswoman, he didn't say that -- he didn't just refuse. He said on some things -- he goes, "I don't know." He said, "I'm not a specialist. I'm not an engineer. I'm not an expert."
Yet, he has an expert there in the hearing sitting behind him. Why not consult with that person to give you the answers that you need?
DEGETTE: Well, and in fact, when I was questioning him, I invited him to bring his consultant up to the table, and he declined to do that. So he had a consultant with him, but I think he just preferred to be vague and not answer the committee's questions.
That's unacceptable. This is the largest environmental disaster in our nation's history, and the CEO of BP should be held accountable.
LEMON: Listen, you're in Colorado. You're not down South. But I'm sure you're hearing it, you're probably getting an earful from people in your district, your constituents as well, because it appears that the country, if not the world, is outraged by this.
What are you hearing?
DEGETTE: People are outraged and they are appalled. What they are really appalled about is all of the different steps that BP could have gone through to make sure that this well was safe, and the absolute negligence by which they operated. It just is -- it just shows the lack of care that BP put into this drill. And, by the way, it's the latest in a whole string of wells and problems that BP has had, so this is not new. LEMON: So, I asked you that question because people in this country are going to feel like, if I can't get -- or if I can get the answers from BP, which they can't get, they are not calling me up, and if Congress, if my representatives can't get the answers from BP and the people who are in charge, then what next?
What do we do, Congresswoman?
DEGETTE: Well, I've got to tell you, we will get the answers. I've been on the Oversight Committee for 14 years. We had oversight into the Enron situation, and Ken Lay and all of the Enron executives came in, did the same thing, said they didn't know what was going on in their own company. But eventually we got to the bottom of it, and eventually, of course, it led to criminal prosecution.
In this case this, this is just one of a series of hearings. We had hearings in the Gulf last week. We had a hearing a couple of days ago with executives from other oil companies. We're having hearings --
LEMON: And can I stop you right there? Can I stop you right there?
DEGETTE: You bet.
LEMON: Because I want to ask you -- and I've got to move on because we're getting back to the hearings here.
Are you saying that this is a possible segue or setup? Might we be looking at a precursor to criminal hearings when it comes to BP or Tony Hayward or those who are involved?
DEGETTE: Well, we'll see. Some of the actions that were taken certainly were willful actions. Whether they're criminal, that will be for the Department of Justice to decide. But what I'm saying is the Oversight and Investigations Committee is a committee that has ongoing investigations.
LEMON: Yes.
DEGETTE: And we will be bringing in other officers and employees of BP and their subcontractors until we find out what happened. We will get to the bottom of it.
LEMON: And Congresswoman, you're absolutely right. This is all on the record.
Congresswoman Diana DeGette of Colorado.
Thank you very much.
DEGETTE: Thank you.
LEMON: We appreciate your time.
We're going to continue to follow the hearings in Washington, monitor the hearings. There you see Tony Hayward there getting grilled, taking questions from a subcommittee there.
And also, our political players in Washington are keeping a close eye and a close ear on this, including our very own Wolf Blitzer and Candy Crowley.
We're going to talk to them about this after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Following all the developments on Capitol Hill today. And you see Tony Hayward there being questioned about what went wrong with the Deepwater Horizon and why is so much oil still gushing down in the Gulf of Mexico.
Candy Crowley joins me now, as well as CNN's Wolf Blitzer.
Thanks to both of you.
Wolf, what do you make of the drama that's happening there on Capitol Hill today, especially when it comes to Joe Barton? Quite a surprising moment to start these hearings off.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It's been a huge distraction and a huge embarrassment for a lot of Republicans right now. And you see that he's having to back away from his very tough statement earlier this morning when he basically blasted the White House for the way they behaved toward BP, calling it a "shakedown," saying it was totally inappropriate, apologizing to BP on behalf of the government.
Now he's had to walk that back. And the Republican leadership, John Boehner in the House, Eric Cantor and others, they have totally distanced themselves from what he had to say. So it's been a political embarrassment for the Republicans right now.
LEMON: And the leadership now, of course, urging him -- urging him to apologize.
Candy Crowley, the Democrats will no doubt pounce on this moment. Will they?
CROWLEY: Oh, already have, actually, the minute it came out of his mouth.
Listen, it's an election year. Everything means something in the political arena. And when you have a Republican coming out and apologizing to BP, which has pretty much been the heart of darkness ever since this oil spill began, it is a huge political blunder.
And the House Republicans obviously got it right away, and that's why they pushed back and told him, listen, you have to either apologize or your ranking membership on the Energy Committee is in jeopardy. Because, as you know, Republicans decide who is going to be the ranking member on a particular committee.
So, yes, it's -- Democrats, it fits right into their game plan, which is these are the people that always protect the oil industry, the evil oil industry. These are the people who don't care about the environment. And, look, he even apologized to the BP. He said the president was part of a shakedown of BP.
So, it's a politically toxic statement to make, particularly in a political year.
LEMON: Listen, I'm going ask either of you this question, because you guys have been covering this for much longer than I have, and you're the experts here.
I asked the congresswoman about, what would be accomplished today, if anything? Because it appeared to them, at least, that Tony Hayward was not answering the questions here. And she mentioned, you know, this -- as this progresses, it could possibly turn into some sort of investigation or some sort of prosecution, and she mentioned other cases that have been criminal cases.
Do you see a setup for this here in this situation?
Wolf first, and then I'll go to Candy.
BLITZER: Well, there already is a criminal investigation. The attorney general of the United States --
LEMON: Criminal prosecution, I should say. I misspoke, Wolf.
BLITZER: Well, it depends on what happens in the investigation. There could be a prosecution.
There could be charges filed as a result of the investigation, but that's way down the road. We have no idea if the investigation will actually lead to a prosecution.
As far as the House is concerned, they can take a look closely at what he says. Remember, he was testifying under oath, and if they feel there was perjury, or something he said wasn't truthful, they could recommend charges being leveled against him. But at this point, all of that is very, very preliminary.
LEMON: Wolf, I'm going to let you go because I know you have to get ready for your show at the top of the hour. Thank you, Wolf. I will be watching.
In the meantime, Candy Crowley, I'm going to let you respond to my question, but we're going to do it on the other side of the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. Back now with CNN's Candy Crowley.
Candy, listen, so might we be looking at a criminal prosecution here, the possibility?
CROWLEY: Always the possibility. I think, actually, what's interestingly is I think some of those answers were given certainly with that possibility in mind. And we talked about this before. I think that Tony Hayward would have been silly as the CEO of this company to have gone into these hearings under oath without first consulting with a lawyer. There's a lot of liability going on out here.
Somebody is going to be held -- some thing is ultimately going to be held responsible. Whether that rises to the level of criminality, I think I agree with Wolf, we're talking something way down the line. Certainly, you can say the Justice Department is looking into it, but there's a long way to go from here to there.
LEMON: OK. Hey, real quickly, let's go to the court of public opinion.
A new CNN/Opinion Research poll taken Tuesday night after the speech shows a growing number of Americans, 59 percent, Candy, disapprove of the way that the president has handled the situation. That's up eight points from a month ago.
And BP really not faring well here. BP, only 13 percent of the people who were asked approve of the way BP has handled the leak. That is a drop of 11 points since May.
BP not doing well. The president doing OK, but not great as well either.
CROWLEY: Right. Well, that's probably -- the president's saving grace may be that everyone disapproves of BP more. But the fact of the matter is even after that speech -- remember the big Oval Office speech where the president was going to take control and show everybody that this was all under his command, and his ratings on -- his approval ratings on handling this crisis went down by eight points.
LEMON: Fifty-nine percent disapprove. That's a lot of people.
So listen, Candy --
CROWLEY: It is.
LEMON: -- take us forward. What are we possibly going to look at next here? And I have only got 10 seconds left, really, because I have to get to our buddy Wolf Blitzer there.
What are we looking at next after these hearings here?
CROWLEY: Well, I think you're going to see more hearings, is what you're going to see. And as more information comes out, there are a lot of committees up there, a lot of people with their hands into this, and you will see more of the same, I think.
LEMON: Candy Crowley, I will be watching you on Sunday morning. Thank you so much. We appreciate it.
And thank you for watching.
I'm going to turn it over now to Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
It's time now for "THE SITUATION ROOM."
