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Rick's List
General Stanley McChrystal Under Fire; Federal Judge Overturns Obama Offshore Drilling Ban
Aired June 22, 2010 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN MONEY LIST: --In the next hours and here on Wall Street again tomorrow morning.
Looking at the closing numbers, look at that red, Rick, in the last hour of trading, a big, big sell-off on Wall Street, stocks down 148 points for the Dow Jones industrial average right now.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Yes.
HARLOW: Some pretty bad housing numbers, so a pretty rough day on the Street.
SANCHEZ: And just as...
HARLOW: Rick.
SANCHEZ: And just as a caveat to your report, we at CNN have learned that the president and the White House will in fact fight this ruling by this federal judge in New Orleans.
HARLOW: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Poppy, good to see you, as usual. Look forward to seeing you again tomorrow.
In the meantime, we're starting to get some more information on General McChrystal's trip back. And who is the one person who so far is paying dearly for this "Rolling Stone" article? We now know who it is and what the reaction is to that.
And here's the rest of the LIST.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Here's is what is making your LIST today.
Is Commander Stanley McChrystal finished, after outlandish comments in "Rolling Stone" magazine?
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Those are comment that he's going to have to deal with respect to the commander in chief, vice president, and his national security staff.
SANCHEZ: And that's not all. What he and his inner circle say about Special Envoy Richard Holbrooke, Ambassador Karl Eikenberry, and former Marine Commander and National Security Adviser Jim Jones.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is McChrystal's job safe?
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We will have more to say after that meeting.
SANCHEZ: Is this insubordination? What does the law say? And should the president have seen this coming?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Can you characterize at all the president's reaction to hearing a McChrystal adviser said Obama, he didn't seem very engaged?
GIBBS: He'll have his undivided attention tomorrow.
General McChrystal has made an enormous mistake.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It makes me sick. We will never have Pat back.
SANCHEZ: Remember McChrystal's involvement in the Pat Tillman cover-up?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is about what they did to Pat and what they did to a nation.
SANCHEZ: His previous comments about the vice president, his stab at President Obama on foreign soil? And now this: The author of the "Rolling Stone" shocker joins me live.
The lists you need to know about. Who's today's most intriguing? Who's landed on the list you don't want to be on? Who's making news on Twitter? It's why I keep a list.
Pioneering tomorrow's cutting-edge news right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: As we begin this newscast, I'm honored to report that we are the news of record for American Forces Network, perhaps more salient today than on most days.
At this hour, we're being seen by troops around the world. We welcome all the troops watching us overseas. This is your national conversation.
And topping that national conversation, it is almost MacArthurish in scope. Some might argue it could be worse, a military commander and his inner staff mocking, indirectly criticizing an American president and vice president and several of their advisers, including some experienced military advisers, on the record.
But it may be even worse, because, while MacArthur did criticize President Truman, as we all know, he was never known to give on-the- record interviews using the types of vulgar languages and references that we hear today in this article that we have been sharing with you that quotes General McChrystal.
The question now -- the question now is, what's next? What happens to the general? That's the question that was asked of Robert Gibbs. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is McChrystal's job safe?
GIBBS: We'll have more to say after that meeting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: So, will McChrystal be asked to resign? Well, it's up to the president.
But it doesn't sound like he should be holding his breath at this point. So far, only one person has been asked to resign. And it's not the general. It's one of the general's subordinates who handled P.R. for him.
The president, it could be argued, has been given reason in the past for removing McChrystal, but in both cases in the past, he's given the general a second and third chance. It's important to note that McChrystal's comments are being criticized both on the left and on the right, and many on both sides have called for his resignation.
It's not a universal call by any means, but there are those calls. Last hour, I had a chance to bring you the very first conversation with the reporter who broke this story, the guy who worked with McChrystal, who wrote this story, who gathered the information.
We started off the interview by asking if he was comfortable using so many of the quotes that weren't directly from McChrystal, but from McChrystal's inner circle, his staff. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL HASTINGS, "ROLLING STONE": I'm totally comfortable of that.
And one of the reasons I didn't want to name staffers is that I just don't think -- I think the subject is a profile of General McChrystal. And to bring other people into -- into the story, I don't think it would have been helpful.
But -- and it also gave me the chance to sort of describe in an unfiltered way their boss' true feelings. They call General McChrystal the boss. They're very loyal to him. And they worship the ground he walks on. And they have a good reason to. General McChrystal, in many ways, is a very impressive man.
SANCHEZ: One more thing, and then I'm going to let Barbara shoot a question at you. But did you -- do you feel comfortable that you were a real fair straight shooter in this story, or do you look at it now and feel like, if you had to do it over again, you would have done it differently?
I guess what I'm trying to say, Michael is, did you color this in any way, either intentionally or unintentionally -- we all do this in this business -- we look back at our work and wonder -- did you color it in any way in a disparaging way?
HASTINGS: No, I don't think so. I think the story speaks for itself. I think the comments speak for itself.
And, as a journalist, I try to do the best that I can to report what I see and what I hear and also what I think. And, clearly, I have been a critic -- and this is publicly documented -- of counterinsurgency in the past. So, my views on a lot of this stuff -- are not -- are very easy to find on the Internet, if one wants to find them. Or, on the radio, I have talked a lot or on TV.
So, I'm perfectly comfortable with the piece. And, to me, it's succeeding in the fact that people are talking about Afghanistan. It is a really important issue. It often gets left off the table. There's 140,000 Americans here. We're spending billions and billions of dollars.
And, to me, it's hope -- it's actually a hopeful sign that we are discussing serious policy issues and flaws that are in -- or what I believe to be are in General McChrystal's plan.
SANCHEZ: Barbara Starr?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Michael, the thing that I find the most curious, in terms of some of these statements that his senior staff made that were disparaging of the president of the United States, was General McChrystal aware his staff made those comments? Was he there at the time? Did he try and stop any of it? It seems extraordinary that he would let this go.
HASTINGS: I don't think so.
I think General McChrystal has a -- has a career of taking risks. And (INAUDIBLE) staff (INAUDIBLE) high tolerance for taking risks. And I think bringing me in to the inner circle, a reporter from "Rolling Stone," was also creating a calculated risk.
I think he -- they're very aware of what -- what not only General McChrystal's staff, but many soldiers think of President Obama. I think the (INAUDIBLE) criticism and sort of disparaging comments were aimed mostly at the other sort of civilian pieces of the puzzle, not excluding General Jones.
But I still see this as very, very, very solid in terms of the relationship between General McChrystal and President Obama and what the sort of feeling is. I mean, ask any of McChrystal's team how they felt (INAUDIBLE) President Obama almost a year before he came to -- before he visited Afghanistan -- that was in March -- or ask them about the conversation President Obama had with General McChrystal the night before Marjah. You can go down the list. And, clearly, this is a relationship that's been strained from the beginning.
And this is obviously a sign of this strain and frustration. And I think the big frustration is, does the president really believe in the mission in Afghanistan? That, I think, is at the root of the problem.
SANCHEZ: Do you -- did you spell out throughout the process what was on the record and what was off the record? What kind of prior explanation did you have with the general? And, in short, was everything said that you quoted accepted to be on the record by all the parties involved?
HASTINGS: There were no ground rules that were given to me. And (INAUDIBLE) I had a tape recorder and a notepad out the entire time.
So, I think it was all very clear that it was on the record. And there were parts that were off the record that I didn't use. So...
SANCHEZ: Really? Like what?
(LAUGHTER)
HASTINGS: Yes. There's a lot I didn't use.
SANCHEZ: I guess since you have an agreement...
HASTINGS: That's off the record.
SANCHEZ: Well, all right. I will leave that alone.
The last thing I want to do is get you in trouble. And, by the way, you know, it's a respected part of what we do. If you tell someone you're not going to talk about what they say, you don't talk about what they say.
Of all the comments made, Michael, the clown comment that was made by one of his aides about Jim Jones, also the comment about the BlackBerry, that really ugly, snipey comment about Richard Holbrooke, and the comment, for example, about Ambassador Eikenberry, no love lost between these two men there, were you taken aback when you started hearing them be that critical of these men?
HASTINGS: Yes, I was completely taken aback. I suspected, obviously, that there were tensions there.
But the candor in which they were delivered from the minute I arrived in Paris was extraordinary. Most of the material that we use in the story that takes place in Paris happened within 24 or 48 hours of me arriving there.
SANCHEZ: Really?
HASTINGS: So, this wasn't like after almost three months of -- or years of building their trust and finally sort of saying these things. This was right off the bat. I mean (INAUDIBLE) a few hours after I landed in Paris, I believe.
SANCHEZ: Barbara Starr?
STARR: Yes.
Michael, I want to shift gears to when you went with him in Afghanistan down, I think, south, and he met with some troops that had come under attack, had lost some of their buddies. And they -- they did not give him a warm reception, by all accounts.
HASTINGS: Yes. No.
In fact, I think this is one of the most significant issues with the American strategy in Afghanistan right now, is that the troops aren't buying it. It's as simple as that.
I have not found a soldier on the ground in Afghanistan who likes the new rules of engagement and who really thinks these directives are worthwhile.
I stopped at Kandahar today. I had a soldier come up to me and say, hey, I heard you did that story on General McChrystal. You know, we like the guy, but it's good that that's getting out there. That's a true sort of anger and it's sort of being expressed.
And it's really a widespread, widespread feeling. And I think the failure to communicate his strategy is also a failure, in some senses, of his leadership.
STARR: You know, it sounds like he gave them the same briefing that he might give a bunch of other commanders or he might give here in the Pentagon.
And, see, I know General McChrystal. I have covered him for years. It just seems so out of character that, on that trip, at least, he did not connect with the soldiers on the ground.
SANCHEZ: In fact, you write, Michael, you write, following up on Barbara's question -- this is toward the end of the article -- "The Taliban, he insists, no longer has the initiative." But then he goes on to tell the troops as well, "But I don't think we do either."
He's being critical of his own plan there, although he's defending his own plan.
HASTINGS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: I found that interesting.
HASTINGS: Well, I think this is the problem with counterinsurgency. It's very hard to get people motivated to go do it because it's so complex, because the results are very intangible, if you see the results at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: General McChrystal may pay the biggest price for this tomorrow, after meeting with the president. Nobody knows exactly what is going to happen just yet. But we do know this. One person today is already paying the price -- more on that as we continue.
Also, this: You can expect a lot of reaction on the McChrystal front, including what the White House is -- is now saying about whether he's going to be able to keep his job. We have got the videotape. We're going to show you what has been said at the White House. Some of the comments, you will find -- well, remarkable.
Also, a federal judge is now saying, drill, baby drill. The Obama administration is challenging it in court, challenging the decision, saying deepwater drilling can't be done until after we figure out whether it's safe or not. Well, a judge in New Orleans, a federal judge, says, no, go ahead and drill.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And I welcome you back. I'm Rick Sanchez. So glad you are all here.
Any number of people are calling for General Stanley McChrystal to be fired because of what he and his staff said to a freelance reporter for "Rolling Stone."
Hell, I even heard Glenn Beck this morning -- I think I mentioned this earlier -- on the way into work today, I had Glenn Beck on. He is calling for McChrystal to resign, because, as Beck says, questions of honor.
But here's the twist.
Joining me now is "TIME" magazine's Joe Klein.
Now, Klein, unlike Beck, has never exactly been called the neocon or anything of that ilk.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: But, as I read his column today, Joe, you seem to almost sound apologetic about the general and the general's comments. Am I wrong?
JOE KLEIN, COLUMNIST, "TIME": Well, not about the comments, and not about his group's comments. That was wildly mega-stupid. And -- you know, and I think he's probably going to lose his job.
I could -- a little bit of news. I was just talking to a very reliable source who tells me that McChrystal has submitted his resignation, and it's going to be up to the president... SANCHEZ: Oh, really?
KLEIN: It's going to be up to the president to accept it or not tomorrow.
Now, you know, were talking before about MacArthur. And there's a big difference here between these untoward, really disgraceful comments, and what MacArthur did. MacArthur was questioning Truman's policy.
McChrystal has not been questioning Obama's policy. In fact, he is...
SANCHEZ: It's a good point.
KLEIN: ... the prime proponent of it.
SANCHEZ: It's a good point. And you know what?
(CROSSTALK)
KLEIN: This is a special....
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: You could even -- you could even make a point, Joe -- and, you know, I was thinking about this -- I'm kind of -- I'm kind of glad you caught me on this, because I was thinking about it as I was saying that.
You could even make the point that MacArthur's policy, in defiance of what Truman wanted to do in Korea, and by continuing to go north and basically thinking he was calling the Chinese's bluff, which they didn't, by the way, he may have gotten a lot of Americans killed as a result of his defiance.
And, in many ways, that is much more serious.
KLEIN: He got tens of thousands of Americans killed.
SANCHEZ: Exactly. Exactly. Point well made.
KLEIN: Tens of thousands.
But -- but -- but let me just make the case -- and I'm not so sure that it's going to be the right thing for the president to do, because this is a special operations war. In fact, the special-ops aspect of it is the only aspect of the war that is going well right now.
You know, we're tolling up a lot of mid-level Taliban leadership. There are raids almost every night. It's been incredibly successful. The counterinsurgency part of the war, the Afghan government part of the war, that's always -- also -- that's been awful. That's been terrible.
But Stan McChrystal is the number-one expert we have on special ops.
SANCHEZ: But, you know...
(CROSSTALK)
KLEIN: And I think that there's a -- there's a real argument for keeping them in that regard.
SANCHEZ: But -- but...
(CROSSTALK)
KLEIN: But, on the other hand, when you say things like this about a president of the United States and about his -- you know, his -- you know, his Cabinet, I -- I think there's a strong argument for letting him go, too.
SANCHEZ: He says, according to..
KLEIN: And I...
SANCHEZ: ... according to Michael, who you -- you -- I think you saw my interview with Michael a little while ago.
KLEIN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: I mean, he says, referring to Biden, he quotes him as saying bite me. That's a heck of a thing for a commander to say about the...
KLEIN: No, no, no, he doesn't -- Rick, I think you're misreading that.
SANCHEZ: Biden -- all right, let's go back. I have got it right here.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: "Then, unable to help themselves, he and his staff imagine the general dismissing the vice president with a good one- liner. 'Are you asking about Vice President Biden?' McChrystal says with a laugh. 'Who is that, Biden?' suggests a top adviser. 'Did you say bite me?'"
Now, I don't...
(CROSSTALK)
KLEIN: That's a top adviser speaking, "Did you say bite me?"
SANCHEZ: So, that's the adviser saying that?
(CROSSTALK)
KLEIN: It's not McChrystal.
SANCHEZ: Saying that in front of him?
KLEIN: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Is it -- so, it's not...
(CROSSTALK)
KLEIN: Yes. But, I mean, that's disgraceful.
SANCHEZ: Right.
KLEIN: It's disgraceful for -- what kind of guy, what kind of a general allows in the presence of a reporter that conversation to even take place?
It's not the Stan McChrystal I know. But I will say this about McChrystal and the press. He ain't the most savvy guy. This guy is totally focused on his mission. He's a classic snake-eater. And, in fact, he doesn't eat much more than snakes. He doesn't sleep very much. I think he probably doesn't sleep enough.
SANCHEZ: How about the part about calling Jim Jones a clown? Again, he doesn't say this. One of his advisers says that in front of him. And the part about making fun of Holbrooke, where he seems to make reference about -- I -- he gets a -- he gets a BlackBerry message from him and says, I don't even want to open it.
They say, the boss says he's like a wounded animal, referring to what apparently McChrystal says about Holbrooke.
You know, again, these are guys who work with you on this process.
KLEIN: Well, you know, last week, in "TIME" magazine -- you may have seen it -- I reported that the level of backbiting among these guys was getting very, very, very intense on all sides, not just McChrystal, number one.
And, number two, I reported a -- an incident where McChrystal blew up at the Afghan National Security Council meeting, saying, "My father has a son and three nephews who are fighting for your freedom here. How many of you are fighting for your freedom?"
That to me indicated that McChrystal was really nearing the end of his rope, that he was kind of impatient and exhausted and frustrated with the strategy, as well as the situation.
SANCHEZ: All right. Joe Klein has just told us -- let me bring the viewers back. CNN has not confirmed, but you heard Joe just mention a little while ago...
KLEIN: Neither have I. It's just one source.
SANCHEZ: It's one source on this so far.
Good source, Joe? KLEIN: Yes. Yes.
SANCHEZ: So, and the White House...
(CROSSTALK)
KLEIN: Wouldn't say it if it weren't.
SANCHEZ: I know, of course. But the White House knows? I mean, there's reason to believe that submitted...
(CROSSTALK)
KLEIN: I don't know. I assume they do.
SANCHEZ: Yes. We will try and get -- you know what we should do? We're going to try and get reaction. Let's see if we can tag- team this thing, see if we can get reaction from the White House to see, in fact -- because you're saying that one good source has told you that he has in fact tendered or offered his resignation, right?
KLEIN: Yes, but I think that that would stand to reason...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
KLEIN: ... and that the conversation tomorrow is going to be about whether the president accepts that resignation or not.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But, Joe, you know that decision...
(CROSSTALK)
KLEIN: My sense of the White House is that they're very, very, very angry...
SANCHEZ: Well, but the decision...
(CROSSTALK)
KLEIN: .. about this and that they may well.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: You don't think that they are going to sit there and have a kumbaya and then decide one way or another to accept his apology or not?
KLEIN: No.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: That decision has already been made, right?
KLEIN: No, I -- what I'm hearing from the White House is that there is an enormous amount of distress about this, in part because of the impression it sends, not just in this country, but around the world, if the president doesn't just call for this guy's resignation -- you know, doesn't fire this guy.
You know, he has the option, with the resignation in place, to say, no, I don't accept your resignation. I'm firing you.
SANCHEZ: Yes, he could do that.
What about this -- you know what I was a little struck by as well in this article? I don't know if you were as well. When he's getting ready to meet with the French minister, and this is a country the United States need to keep up the appearances that this a big allied front, et cetera, et cetera, although some would argue it isn't, and he's making fun of the guy and they're using vulgarities to describe him, and he says he would rather have his butt kicked by 20 guys than go and talk with this French minister.
I mean, this is going to be read by that French minister, man.
KLEIN: Boy.
SANCHEZ: Right? That doesn't help us.
KLEIN: Boy, and you know what? We have a lot of NATO allies in Afghanistan. Some of them fight and some of them don't fight. The French fight. They have lost 40 troops.
SANCHEZ: Mm-hmm.
KLEIN: And this kind of thing, it's just -- in the presence of a reporter? I mean, I have seen people say things like this. But the ground rules were very clearly off the record. In this case, they weren't, apparently, according to what Michael Hastings says.
SANCHEZ: Yes. Yes. And, in fact, I had a long conversation with Michael just a little while ago. And I was very direct in asking him that very question. What was on the record, what wasn't on the record?
KLEIN: I saw that.
SANCHEZ: Yes. He said, look, I had a tape recorder rolling in front of him. When you see a tape recorder rolling and you hear that little buzz in the background, you basically have to know you're on the record for just about everything that comes out of your mouth.
KLEIN: Right.
SANCHEZ: Joe Klein...
(CROSSTALK)
KLEIN: Right. It's extraordinary.
SANCHEZ: Yes, it is. Joe Klein, what an interesting day. I will be following up on reading your reporting as well. Stay in touch. We will see what we find out. Thanks so much.
KLEIN: OK.
SANCHEZ: Joe Klein from "TIME" magazine reporting for us as well.
Now, listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You may have been the first person to detect a problem with that blowout preventer. You probably were, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You reported it, as you should have, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: This is a CNN exclusive. What happened next? Did they know the blowout preventer was busted, and they didn't tell anyone? A worker on the Deepwater Horizon platform blows the whistle, and you're going to hear part of what he has to say. You will hear the entire conversation, by the way, coming up tonight on "ANDERSON COOPER 360."
What is that, Anginette (ph)?
Dan Lothian joining us now on the phone, we understand.
Dan, you heard my conversation a little while ago with Joe Klein. He says that there has been a resignation offered. Have you got anything on that, Dan?
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, after hearing those comments, I did go up and talk to Robert Gibbs, who had just heard those comments himself.
And he said that, at this point, that General McChrystal had not communicated with the White House. I said, well, has he resigned? And he said, I need to check on this, and got up and went into -- towards the Oval Office to speak with the president.
So, no confirmation yet that that has taken place, but I will tell you that there is an event, the president meeting with his Cabinet members here at the White House right now, and we will be going in there in about hopefully the next 15 minutes or so. And I do plan to ask the president if indeed he has resigned or if he has been fired, but, at this point, no confirmation.
And just to be clear, by the way, what Joe said that he has one good source who has told him that in fact the commander, McChrystal, has offered to resign. Now it's up to the president to make a decision as to what he does with that, if that's confirmed.
LOTHIAN: Right.
SANCHEZ: Normally, in our business, we wait to get two sources before we say that a story has been confirmed.
At this point, we're not confirming this at CNN. In fact, Joe Klein is even being real honest with us. He said, Rick, I just happen to be in a conversation with you now and I will just tell you that someone just told me this.
LOTHIAN: Right. Right.
SANCHEZ: So, it's really a third-person report at this time, and I think it's important that we're real transparent and let our viewers know that, right, Dan?
(CROSSTALK)
LOTHIAN: Right. That's right.
And, again, if he's offered, it could have been offered through a third party. But, from Robert Gibbs, there has been no contact, as of a few minutes ago, when I went and spoke to him, between General McChrystal and the president.
So, I can take from that that he has not offered to resign in a phone conversation with the president.
SANCHEZ: Well, you know...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: ... it would seem the honorable thing to do is to give the commander in chief a way out here, to give him...
LOTHIAN: Exactly.
SANCHEZ: ... to give him a little -- a little room, a little breathing room, as they say, a big shoulder, as they say, when you're driving on the highway and you don't want to be too close to the car in front of you.
Dan, let me ask you, what's the buzz? How big of a buzz has this created there in Washington? Those of us out here in the rest of the country, we wonder sometimes how big -- how this stuff is received.
Is this is the strategy that everyone is whispering about up there today?
LOTHIAN: Oh, yes. It's the story that really has sort of overshadowed everything else.
Up to this point, the focus really has been on oil and the administration's response to the oil -- response to the oil crisis. And this is a story that really just exploded. It started trickling out late last night, and then really blew up today.
And I think what was sort of what we noticed here at the White House was that this -- this really -- this sense of anger from Robert Gibbs and the anger that he portrayed from the president himself to this article.
SANCHEZ: Hmm.
LOTHIAN: It's -- we haven't seen anything quite like this.
Clearly, the president and his team are upset by these comments, and particularly because it's happening at a sensitive time, when there are a lot of questions about a very difficult war in Afghanistan. And so something like this, as Robert Gibbs pointed out at the briefing today, is simply a distraction from the real focus of winning that war in Afghanistan.
And, so, yes, it's a huge story, a lot of buzz. And it's what everybody is talking about today.
SANCHEZ: Yes. And -- and what's interesting -- yes, when you say everybody is talking about it, it's been talked to on both sides -- talked about on both sides of the aisle. And, interestingly enough, we have heard, you know, some harsh words coming from Republicans, as well as Democrats, on this regarding McChrystal's comments.
Hey, Dan, thanks so much for reaching out to us. I always appreciate it. Thanks. Thanks for watching RICK'S LIST, by the way.
(LAUGHTER)
LOTHIAN: OK. I always do.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Thanks, man.
LOTHIAN: OK. Bye-bye.
SANCHEZ: All right. We have got a lot of -- a lot of other news coming your way, obviously the continuing reaction to -- to McChrystal.
And then did you hear what Robert Gibbs said specifically? That's what Dan Lothian was just referring to. We have taken all that sound and put it together in one nice little bunch for you. And we're going to share that with you in just a little bit.
This is your national conversation. I'm Rick Sanchez.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
We do something called "The Roundup List" every day. I want to bring you up to date on the big stories that we've been following for you.
First of all, a federal judge today gives the green light to start oil drilling again in the Gulf of Mexico. It's Judge Martin Feldman, ruling in favor of several businesses who sued the government to get the offshore rigs working once again, rigs they depend on, they say, to survive. The president, for his part, had halted deepwater drilling in the Gulf of Mexico for six months, until he can have proved to him that it's safe to do so without having another catastrophe like the one that happened just recently.
By the way, the White House says they will fight this ruling.
I want you to hear what a worker aboard a Deepwater Horizon rig was telling CNN. He's just broken his silence, and he's blowing the whistle on this BP oil spill.
His name is Tyrone Benton. He tells the story of how he warned supervisors that there was a leak down in the BPO, the blowout preventer, and that they knew about it.
Now, that's the equipment that is meant to prevent disasters like this in a Gulf spill. And when it goes bad, if you only have one rig, if you only have one well, you're in trouble. Well, these folks are in trouble.
More than two months later, Benton is telling CNN exactly what he told his bosses about the leak. Why didn't they tell the public? Why didn't they tell the government?
Here's our Drew Griffin. He speaks with him about what it was like to be on the rig during the explosion after he had given the warning no one seemed to be listening to.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Eleven people dead?
TYRONE BENTON, DEEPWATER HORIZON SURVIVOR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: You were there when it blew up?
BENTON: Yes.
GRIFFIN: You saw the fire? When those explosions started to rock that rig, did you think, they didn't take me seriously enough?
BENTON: I didn't know what was going on. The first explosion, I just thought it was a crane that landed hard on the deck. I didn't realize what was really going on at that time. The second explosion, I knew something was wrong, and all I could do was just get off.
GRIFFIN: At what point did you think back to your reporting that there was a leak in the blowout preventer?
BENTON: Probably say a few days later.
GRIFFIN: You may have been the first person to detect a problem with that blowout preventer. You probably were. Correct?
BENTON: Probably.
GRIFFIN: You reported it, as you should have. Correct?
BENTON: Correct.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: There's a lot more to that interview, by the way. And I want to you see it. You can see all of Drew's interview with Tyrone Benton tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern on "ANDERSON COOPER 360."
Even after being warned by Benton and failing to respond to his warning, the company that owns the leased Deepwater Horizon platform has been calling for an end to the government's deepwater drilling moratorium. But, again, listen to this. "The Wall Street Journal" is now reporting that nearly 75 percent of the federal investigations into safety problems in the Gulf since 2008 have occurred on oil rigs operated by, you guessed it, Transocean.
Here's what Transocean's chief executive, Steven Newman, had to say today. He says, "I think there are actions the administration could take today that would allow for the safe and prudent resumption of activity on the outer continental shelf."
Once again, a federal judge in New Orleans agrees with Transocean and blocked the six-month government moratorium on deepwater drilling. Several oil companies and even the governor of Louisiana had petitioned the court to do just that and block the moratorium.
OK. General McChrystal makes the humiliating comments about his superiors and his colleagues. He's being called to the White House, as we all know.
I'll give you the details as to what he said that is making so much news. I know many of you are getting home from work now and want to know. But for those of you who know and are caught up, will he, A, apologize tomorrow to the president? B, apologize and then resign? Or, C, be fired on the spot?
Which do you think should happen? Let me know on Twitter.
THE LIST scrolls on.
I'm Rick Sanchez.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Rick. This is Karen (ph) from Philly. I think they should lift the moratorium for the oil drilling. We already have enough problems as it is. I don't think it's a good idea.
And I'd like to know why they're only catching 23,000 barrels a day and 100,000 is going into the ocean. This is ridiculous.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right. Obviously we're getting more reaction now.
You heard on the air here just a little while ago, Joe Klein said that he had one source who's telling him that, in fact, General McChrystal will be offering his resignation if the president chooses to accept it. The president can just have him apologize. The president can also say, no, I don't accept your resignation, but I'm firing you.
I mean, there's a lot of things that can happen here. We've been asking you what you think should happen, and the reaction has been phenomenal. Thousands of people getting on Twitter and certainly being very involved with this story. So we're going to bring you all of that information.
But one of the big stories today as well was what happened today when Robert Gibbs stepped out and stood in front of reporters. Here's a taste of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The magnitude and graveness of the mistake here are profound.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: And he said a lot more than that. That's just part of the highly-charged White House news conference today.
If the press secretary is this mad at General McChrystal in terms of how he described what he had done, how angry is the president? Well, he was asked that specific question as well. He describes how he took the article to the president last night and what the president's reaction was when he read it.
That's ahead.
Also, by the way, President Obama is losing a key member of his staff. White House Budget Director Peter Orszag, he's the man who helped steer the administration through the stimulus program and through health care reform. Orszag is going to be the first cabinet official to go. No word yet on a replacement.
It's another one of the big stories that we're following for you today. A lot of news, folks.
This is RICK'S LIST, your list. Your national conversation continues after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And I welcome you back. I know that you probably know who is going to be on our bad list today. It's obvious. But you know what? Sometimes the obvious answer is the only right answer. And the only right answer today is General Stanley McChrystal.
Here now, "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On."
Now, McChrystal, we must recall, is the guy accused of fabricating a report to cover up the real cause of football star Pat Tillman's death in Afghanistan. But McChrystal survived that scandal.
He's also the guy who publicly criticized the vice president of the United States. But he was forgiven that.
McChrystal is the guy who undermined the authority of the president of the United States by dissenting with his war policy while on foreign soil, no less. After that episode, the White House gave him a private dressing down, then offered him another chance.
The "Rolling Stone" article, the most recent situation, describes his condescending attitude toward an official meeting with a French dignitary. Then a staff member called the dinner "f-ing gay." Nice talk about one of our few allies in Afghanistan, from a commander in Afghanistan.
Any one of those may have provided reason enough to remove McChrystal from his post, but he was given another chance, and another, and another. And now it would seem that he has, according to some insiders, run out of chances.
Tomorrow he's going to be front and center at the Oval Office to explain the seemingly insubordinate comments that he made about everyone from the president of the United States, to the vice president, to the national security adviser, to the president's envoy to Afghanistan.
We do have a concept in this country. It's called civilian leadership. Our forefathers decided it for us a long time ago. That's the process that we should use.
We don't want generals running our country as people from around the world, especially in parts of Latin America have found out, doesn't work. Americans don't have a government run by the military. That's what sets us apart from some of the places that we often report on, I've reported on.
For a McChrystal aide to say, "Bite me" in reference to Vice President Biden isn't so much cute, or to allow his staff to call Jim Jones a clown, it seems to many to go beyond the pale. It's not how American generals behave. Not our American generals.
And as several of our guests have said, even those who defend McChrystal, it does not serve the troops very well overseas. Not in any capacity.
It is for those reasons that General Stanley McChrystal is today's choice for "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: He's a terrific soldier, and this is a critical moment in Afghanistan. And as far as I am concerned personally, the top priority is our mission in Afghanistan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Will that make it much more difficult for President Obama, though, to fire the general or accept his resignation? Is that even on the table?
Washington is waiting for tomorrow's face-to-face meeting a la MacArthur/Truman between these two men, the president and his top commander.
Wolf Blitzer joins me in just a little bit. He's all over this story as well.
RICK'S LIST continues after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And we have some guests here in the studio, folks who come on by and visit with us, especially during the summer. Boy, it's been a busy summer for RICK'S LIST, behind the conversation guests.
Wolf Blitzer is a frequent guest on our show as well before he gets ready to do his own. And Wolf is joining me now.
You know, Wolf, boy, what a tangled web we weave. This thing with General McChrystal is about as interesting a story. And this idea that the two men are going to have a showdown tomorrow, the president of the United States and General McChrystal, is going to be one heck of a story to follow.
I know you've been following this all day today. What are your thoughts? What is your take? What are your comparisons?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, first of all, I recommend that everybody who has access to read that "Rolling Stone" magazine article by Michael Hastings -- I read it this morning, and it's really some solid reporting, well written, very compelling, and not only tells some of the story, some of the stuff that we've been talking about, what General McChrystal says about General Jones or Vice President Biden or Richard Holbrooke, the special envoy, all the sort of I guess sexy stuff, or whatever you want to call it, but on the substance, on what is going on in Afghanistan right now.
Can this war be won? Is it simply a quagmire? Is the counterinsurgency strategy really working? How angry are the rank- and-file soldiers and Marines at General McChrystal for this policy that they think requires them to fight with one arm tied behind their back because they don't want to accidentally kill Afghan civilians? It's really a fascinating assessment of where the war stands right now. And I think if you read the whole article -- and I know you have, Rick -- but I just recommend it to our viewers -- it gives a very, very comprehensive, well-reported assessment of how dangerous the situation is right now and what -- I guess you could say what a mess it is.
SANCHEZ: Yes. Well, and there's both parts of this. This is interesting.
When you were saying that, I took the article out, and I started reading this one part that I thought fascinated me. Barbara Starr and I were talking about this a little while ago, Wolf.
It's where he's talking with all these troops in Afghanistan. He goes and visits with them, and they're kind of hard on him.
They say, "Why don't you let us go and do our jobs, General?" But then, interestingly enough, he says this to them: "The Taliban," he says, "no longer has the initiative." But then he says in direct quotes, "But I don't think we do either."
I mean, this is a guy who is pretty honest about his situation out there. I mean, for him to say we don't have the initiative either in this war in Afghanistan, what do you make of that?
BLITZER: Well, remember, just the other day he called it a bleeding ulcer. That's about as blunt as you can get.
And it's fascinating to see what the -- you looked at the cover of the article, "The Runaway General." But then if you take a look, a closer look at the subheadline underneath that, Rick, it says this -- it says, "Stanley McChrystal, Obama's top commander in Afghanistan, has seized control of the war by never taking his eye off the real enemy: the wimps in the White House."
The real enemy, according to McChrystal and his aides, the wimps in the White House. And that's why this general is in such deep trouble right now.
Allowing his aides to tell this reporter, Michael Hastings of "Rolling Stone" magazine, you know what? He's got a real problem, not necessarily with the war, the enemies on the ground in Afghanistan, but the wimps in the White House, it's a powerful article.
SANCHEZ: I'll tell you what it is, too, Wolf. I mean, I'm just sitting here thinking out loud.
I've got kids, you've got kids. You know, when my teenage sons have a party down in the basement and they invite their buddies, and sometimes they'll say and do things that make me, like, "Come on, guys, enough is enough," it's almost what I feel like saying when I'm watching this article. It's like a fraternity of guys saying things that they shouldn't be saying and behaving in such a way so they shouldn't be behaving either.
Right?
BLITZER: Yes. I mean, he's got a hard core of aides and troops who work with him. And that one scene that he depicts when they were in Paris, getting ready to meet with some French military ministers, and it just coincided with his wedding anniversary -- his wife comes over, he spends about 30 days a year with her because he's always fighting this war in Afghanistan, and they decide to go to an Irish pub in Paris with everyone, including this reporter tagging along. I mean, it was just eye-opening, to read that kind of color -- that kind of description of who General McChrystal is.
It's just a very revealing article, I should say.
SANCHEZ: To say this about this minister, I found that right away. You know, it's funny. All of the things that you're talking about are the same things that I highlighted with my highlighter.
He says, "I'd rather have my butt kicked by a roomful of people than go out to this dinner," he says about the French minister. And then the reporter says, "Well, who is he going to have dinner with?" I asked some of the aides, and one of his aides says, "Such French minister," the aide tells me. "It's f-ing gay."
Wow. I mean, these are things that you know are going to come back to you.
Wolf, I'll let you go. You and I can talk about this a lot more, but I know that you've got two hours of fantastic show lined up for "THE SITUATION ROOM."
I'll look forward to it, my friend.
BLITZER: Thanks very much.
SANCHEZ: All right.
Now, just how mad is the White House, by the way? You can tell by listening to Robert Gibbs, his afternoon news conference. We've got the highlights and you're going to be able to hear it for yourself.
Stay right there. This is good.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. This is your national conversation. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Tons of reaction from all of you on this McChrystal story.
Maybe the most fascinating reaction today came from the White House, at the briefing.
This is Robert Gibbs. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is McChrystal's job safe?
GIBBS: We'll have more to say after that meeting.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Can you characterize at all the president's reaction to hearing that aides of McChrystal called Vice President Biden, "Bite me," and a McChrystal adviser said, "Obama clearly didn't know anything about McChrystal when they first met. Here's a guy who's going to run his f-ing war and he didn't seem very engaged. The Boss was pretty disappointed"?
GIBBS: He'll have his undivided attention tomorrow.
General McChrystal has -- Secretary Gates has said -- has made an enormous mistake, a mistake that he will get a chance to talk about and answer to tomorrow to both officials in the Pentagon and to the commander in chief.
I think our efforts in Afghanistan are bigger than one person.
I gave him the article last night, and he was angry.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How so?
GIBBS: Angry. You would know it if you saw it.
Yes, ma'am?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What bothered the president the most about what he read?
GIBBS: That we're distracting from what the president considers to be an enormously vital mission for our country and for our armed sources.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: General McChrystal has already had his woodshed moment with the president. It happened last year after London.
How many times can this man be taken to the woodshed by the commander-in-chief?
GIBBS: We'll know more about that tomorrow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right. There you go.
And by the way, if you want to see the interview that I did, the first interview with Michael Hastings, who was the author and the reporter and the news-gatherer, I asked him at length about how he gathered this information, if there were any deals made, whether anything was off the record or on the record. And, if so, how?
It's an interesting interview. You can see it on my blog. All right? That's CNN.com/ricksanchez, on my blog. We're out of time, but here comes the best political show on television, "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer.
