Return to Transcripts main page
Rick's List
Obama vs. Arizona; Manuel Noriega's Fate Announced
Aired July 07, 2010 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Let's roll my open, shall we?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Here's what's making the LIST on this day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're just the eyes and the ears. That's the big deal. We're just trying to help the Border Patrol.
SANCHEZ: Drilling down from the border, as the Arizona immigration controversy heats up.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Laws like Arizona's put huge pressures on local law enforcement to enforce rules that ultimately are unenforceable.
SANCHEZ: The Obama administration sues Arizona. Arizona details their plan, and we're all over it.
(on camera): Do you work for the CIA?
MANUEL NORIEGA, FORMER PANAMANIAN DICTATOR (through translator): I did not work. I wasn't an employee.
SANCHEZ: And my interview with Manuel Noriega revisited as his fate is announced.
The lists you need to know about. Who's today's most intriguing? Who's landed on the list you don't want to be on? Who's making news on Twitter? It's why I keep a list.
Pioneering tomorrow's cutting-edge news right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Here we go, fulfilling a promise. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Topping our LIST right now, 48 hours since we showed you how Arizona is instructing its police to enforce its brand-new immigration law, point by point, 24 hours since the Justice Department filed a lawsuit in federal court to keep that law from going into effect. And since then, everybody's been jumping on this national conversation, including, well, the biggest name of all when it comes to Arizona's controversial immigration scenario, Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA, SHERIFF: As far as this sheriff is concerned, lawsuits or no lawsuits, I'm going to continue enforcing the federal and state immigration laws.
In three years, thanks to the cooperation with the former county attorney, Mr. Thomas, we have detained, investigated on the streets of Phoenix, in the county, and in our jails over 40,000 illegal aliens. This is probably a record in the United States of America for any law enforcement local or state agency.
So, I guess we're doing the right thing. I will not be threatened as the elected sheriff by any lawsuit against the state regarding the fight against illegal immigration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: So, there he is, Sheriff Joe, as they call him, Joe Arpaio.
We have made a promise that we're going to stay on top of this story for you, especially given the details that have been coming out over the last 48 hours. We have talked to lawyers. We have talked to police officials from Arizona.
Now we want to bring in somebody who has got a lot to do with this law, Dan Stein. He's the president of FAIR, the Federation for American Immigration Reform. Dan and I have gone around and around on this issue for years now as really the country tries to deal with this issue in many ways.
And let's start there, Dan, if we -- oh, Dan, good to see you, sir.
DAN STEIN, PRESIDENT, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: Always good to see you, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Hey, let's start there. Since I just mentioned that you and I have been talking about this the last several years -- and it has been an important national issue -- how did this all of a sudden become just Arizona's issue, Arizona's controversy? And how do you think that will eventually play into a national solution to this problem?
STEIN: Well, ultimately, Rick, this is about reasserting federal and state integration in federal immigration enforcement.
Historically, states and the federal government are partners in carrying out immigration law. But as a result of litigation brought about by MALDEF and the ACLU over 20, 30 years, the states were neutralized into compliance or participation or verification with the federal government before giving out services or taxpayer money to illegal aliens.
(CROSSTALK)
STEIN: What Arizona is trying to do...
SANCHEZ: Well, but hold on. Here we have got the -- what you just said makes a lot of sense, except here we have the federal government now suing the state of Arizona, saying, look, this is not your turf. Get out, let us handle this.
STEIN: You know, look, I read the brief very carefully. It's interesting, Rick, that the administration's brief, despite the president's repeated public statements, that brief does not mention racial profiling in any significant manner.
Its entire argument is preemption, meaning that the federal government decides all immigration matters, which, of course, is true, and there's nothing about the Arizona law that changes that. The federal government doesn't have to deport anybody it doesn't want to.
But the most important aspect of the administration's brief is this. It's a shocking challenge to the balance of power between the legislative and executive branches, in that the administration says if we decide to not enforce immigration law on a class-based, wholesale wide involving millions and millions of people, then we are essentially going to be in a position of deciding who comes into this country, and then going to Congress periodically and saying, all right, you're going to have retroactively ratify the people we have let into the country illegally through unlimited prosecutorial discretion.
That is a rapid change in the balance of power. It is Congress who decides who comes in, how many, under what terms, not the executive branch. If the president doesn't want to enforce America's immigration policy, he needs to explain why he's not doing it. And, frankly, he's the executive. He's the chief executive. We need another president if he's not going to enforce the law, Rick.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Well, hold a minute, because you know what? To be fair, this is what else they talk about. They say that Arizona could quite possibly violate the constitutional rights not of people who are here illegally, but of people who are here legally.
That's one of the points they make, Dan, to be fair. In fact, let me read it to you. The lawsuit says -- this is from page three, line six -- "It will cause the detention and the harassment of authorized visitors to the United States, immigrants and citizens who do not have or carry identification documents specified by the statute."
In other words, you know what they're saying. They're essentially saying, Dan Stein or Rick Sanchez are walking down the street, some cop can come up and start hassling us and asking us for papers. Well, as citizens of the United States, we shouldn't be hassled. The Constitution says we shouldn't be hassled in an effort to get some guy who they think might be illegal.
(CROSSTALK) STEIN: Look, Rick, they have been trying to make that argument. At least the ACLU has rhetorically. That's been the argument for years, while they have intimidated states into signing consent orders not to verify status.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But that's an important argument, Dan.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But, Dan, that's an important argument.
(CROSSTALK)
STEIN: But it's perspective. Rick, it's an important argument, but not if it's untrue. Right now, the law hasn't even been implemented or enforced. The responsible decision would have been for the federal government to wait and say, all right, in deference to the state's prerogatives in these areas, knowing that all Arizona wants to do is assist the federal government in doing what the American people want, let's wait and see how the law is actually enforced.
SANCHEZ: That's a good point.
(CROSSTALK)
STEIN: But, no, they made a political judgment here, Rick. They decided, look, illegal aliens don't vote. So, who ultimately are they pandering to? It's organizations like the SEIU tied into machine- style political turnout for the November election.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But, Dan, to be fair...
(CROSSTALK)
STEIN: ... about energizing a political base.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: I have got to stop you there, because if I was talking to the other side right now, they would be saying the exact same thing about the Republicans, that they're pandering to groups made up of people who simply want to be coming at this from a nativist standpoint.
So, the accusations can go both ways. Guys like you and I get together once in a while so we can try to find common ground in the middle, because that's the only way this is going to be settled.
But, hey, Dan, can you hold on for just a moment?
STEIN: All right, let's find common ground.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: We have got breaking news. We have got breaking news. I have to stop you for just a moment. Here we go.
Delaware -- I'm being told that, on the Delaware river, this is near Philadelphia, is that right, Angie Massie? It's the Delaware River and we're told that a tourist boat there has -- there's been an accident involving a tourist boat. As many as 30 people are in the water.
This is brand-new information. Again, I'm getting it. I was in the middle of my conversation with Dan Stein from FAIR when I was told that this was developing. Is this the -- hey, do me a favor. Can you put the picture on that big screen over there so I can see it? It's hard for me to make out what's going on here. And I know the viewers at home can probably help as well.
Is that the tourist boat? That looks to me like it's one of the rescue vessels where maybe they're taking people to. Was the tourist boat -- yes, yes, it does look like people are being taken, put on this boat, apparently extracted from the waters or extracted from some other vessel in the area.
And I'm being told those of us who go to with our -- those of us who have children and often go as tourists to places like Boston and South Florida even see those boats that are amphibious boats. They're called duck boats. I don't know if that's one of the brands. But there are several of them. And they go on land and then they actually can go on water as well. Apparently, it is one of those boats.
Chad Myers joining me here now, who's saying that apparently it was one of those boats that was involved in the accident. Is that it there on the top?
(CROSSTALK)
CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes, I don't know if that's the boat. But that is a duck boat.
SANCHEZ: That is a duck...
MYERS: It looks like a bus with a bow on it. It looks like there's a hull underneath a bus. And there's wheels on this thing. They drive down a ramp and then the wheel wells are waterproof, and this bus basically with a hull underneath can drive on the water.
And so here you go. That's a rigid hull inflatable that they're pulling out...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Right. It looks like the inflatable was used from this vessel, which seems to be some kind of -- it looks like a military vessel of some sort. I don't see U.S. Coast Guard...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: ... do you?
MYERS: I don't see the Coast Guard orange stripe on it at all, no.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But they look like they're wearing some kind of fatigues.
MYERS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And they're not wearing shirts. And they use that inflatable to do something, probably enact some kind of rescue. We're being told that's a Philadelphia police vessel. Is that right, Angie? OK. That's the marine unit of the Philadelphia Police Department, because we're on the Delaware River, which is on the coast of Philadelphia, as we know, dividing it from New Jersey.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Hold on. Hold on. We have got this. We have got some brand-new information coming in now. A barge -- a barge hit the duck boat and it overturned.
MYERS: Correct.
SANCHEZ: We understand -- I don't know what you know about the geography of this, Chad, but it's Henn's Landing. You ever heard of Henn's Landing?
MYERS: No.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: I'm sorry. Penn's Landing, yes, like Pennsylvania, OK. Sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But I can't tell which one is the vehicle because any of those could be just other duck boat that came to the scene to help. If it overturned it, did it submerge?
MYERS: I heard -- this was just what I read a little bit go before I walked out here, that there were six people in the water.
SANCHEZ: All right. You keep talking. I'm going to check the wires.
MYERS: And then you can see -- this -- yes, Philly P.D. now is saying that 30 people actually were in the water at some point either wet or still hanging onto this duck boat.
SANCHEZ: Right. MYERS: It surprises me that they're still either driving around or looking. Now, it also said something. When they were pulling that rigid hull inflatable, when they were pulling the inflatable boat out of the water. That tells me that they're done searching. They're not looking for anybody anymore.
SANCHEZ: And this is like a channel, right? So the depth here would be probably 40, 50 feet?
(CROSSTALK)
MYERS: Sure. No, this is well dug out. You can see there's a (INAUDIBLE) right there. I can't -- I can't tell the color of it. But there are clearly places to tie up. And this would be well- dredged for navigation.
SANCHEZ: The question is, and it's really hard to tell at this -- now we see all kinds of rescue vehicles. Now we have got other boats coming to the scene. We have got helicopters there at the right of your screen. And I don't know -- it looks like the way that that helicopter is flying that he's doing a kind of maneuver that would make me think that he's -- that they're circling in a search environment, like they're looking for people in the water.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Now, if we're told 30 people ended up in the water, the question is, were all 30 people pulled out of the water and are they OK? And if so, where are they? Those are unanswered questions at this point.
MYERS: And you know what? I don't think anybody really knows. They may have everybody out of the water and everybody -- but they would not have that count, a perfect count. If you put four people on one vessel, you pull six people, put them on another vessel, you have to add all those up and hopefully you get to 30, right?
There are more than one vessel there involved in the rescue, so not 30 people all on one new boat. And so you count them all up and make sure they are there. They are going to stay there to see if anybody bobs around, I guess.
SANCHEZ: All right, here's what we're going to do. We're going to do -- which is -- here's a very complex and sophisticated way of explaining them. We're going to put that story in a little box on the right of the screen. That will remind you that it's an ongoing story that we're going to stay on top of.
We expect to get a reporter from the scene to call us any moment now to share with us the details of this story. We don't have her yet. But as soon as we do, we will be able to hook up with her. In the meantime, we will also be going back to Dan Stein to continue a conversation that we have made a commitment to follow on this newscast, and that is get all the essentials on the immigration story developing in Arizona and the challenge being applied by the federal government. We're going to take a short break. We're going to be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Let's go back to the scene now.
Roger, go ahead and -- you see that right behind me there. Let's take that full, if we possibly can. Here's what we have learned, that there is one of those amphibious tourist boats/trucks that are used in the Delaware River off of Philadelphia. And apparently it collided with a barge in some manner and as a result of that, 30 people went overboard and ended up in the water.
That's the preliminary report that we received. Our CNN journalist, Sarah Hoye is standing by there now and hopefully she will be able to add some details and answer some of our questions.
Sarah, if you're there, just go ahead and pick up the story from what I just explained, if you would.
SARAH HOYE, CNN ALL PLATFORM CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good afternoon, Rick.
Unfortunately, I don't have too much more to add than what you stated already. I am here on the ground and able to see what is actually going on, on the river. However, you do see a number of helicopters, whether they're news media and perhaps some type of medical aid.
Two of those boat crafts that you described were about to go into the river itself to continue on a tour. But they have taken off at the moment. Right now, we have a few fire department personnel and some police standing by, but right now no action on the sidewalk on the streets here. It seems -- everything seems to be on the water, which I am unable to see from my vantage point.
SANCHEZ: Well, what's interesting is here we get this report that 30 people may have ended up in the water, but we're not getting indications as to whether any of those people have been taken out of the water or if any of them for that matter are still in the water or worse.
HOYE: That's correct.
I haven't been able to get any word from the officials here on the ground. It seems as though they're just waiting for their own update before they speak with media.
SANCHEZ: We're looking at the live picture there. And you see another police vehicle coming to the scene there on the right.
You know what you usually -- hey, Chad, you probably will back me up on this. From growing up in South Florida around those waters and covering a lot of stories involving vessels that overturn, one of the dead giveaways usually for the place where a vessel overturned is a little round circle of oil that differentiates -- or fuel that differentiates itself from the rest of the water. And usually you can tell by that because it tends to leaves a trail, right, that something's happened there if a boat has overturned.
MYERS: Do you think this boat is under the water?
SANCHEZ: Well, I don't know if it's under the water. I can't even see what I'm describing now, which is where's the fuel trail, where is the place in the water that usually you get the reflection off the sun that says something's happened in that area? I don't see it.
MYERS: Yes. A vessel, or especially a marine vessel, is so sealed that that doesn't mean that gasoline would start to leak out if it was on the bottom of that water there or that oil would leak out of a crankcase. You may not get that sheen, especially if the water is moving like it is.
This is a river. This isn't just some kind of flat lake where you may see the bubbling up of any kind of an oily slick that might come straight up. It still concerns me that these boats and these vessels have not left yet, that they're still basically in the same place.
SANCHEZ: Yes, that's what I'm -- hey, Sarah, have you put in a -- I know we're just getting word to you on this. And I don't want to put you on the spot.
But have you had a chance to call the marine police there or the general Philly police guys, the P.I.O. or anybody out there?
HOYE: Yes, we do have calls in to the police. And like I said, I just literally arrived on the scene. And they're being pretty mum here. So, just waiting for updates myself.
SANCHEZ: It sounds like they're not sure.
OK. Well, Sarah, do me a favor. See if you can get back on the horn with some of those guys. They're usually pretty good. Usually, the P.I.O. guys, as soon as they know something, they will let us know. In fact, if Philly P.I.O. is watching us right now, and I understand from reading Twitters that people all over the country are watching our coverage of this right now, do us a favor and call in and we would love to get you on the air and maybe you could take us through what's going on here, because, look, there's a lot of questions. There's more questions than answers right now.
MYERS: Sure.
There's absolutely no problem -- or no question that this water would be deep enough to submerge that vessel. You would not see the top of a duck boat. That duck boat could be 30, 40 feet down below. Now, the good news is the duck boat don't have windows, right?
This is an outside, almost like a trolley-like thing.
(CROSSTALK) SANCHEZ: Yes. So, if something happened, you could jump out and swim. And most of those people -- and these tourist boats, by the way, they have to pass so many federal laws and standards as far as having the right amount of lifeboats.
They do drills on safety almost every day. Before they take off, they tell the passengers, here's what you have to do. So, usually, they're pretty good about safety.
MYERS: Every child would have to be wearing -- already wearing a life jacket, absolutely, without any doubt in my mind. And a lot of the passengers, whether they're adult or child, would be put on -- would put on a life jacket even before they got in the water.
(CROSSTALK)
MYERS: So, the fact that more boats aren't surrounding this, I don't see any dive units here. I don't see anybody going under the water, whether free diving or with the scuba -- tells me that the vessel may -- it may have been an inconsequential collision, that the duck boat may have gone away, because we saw that...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: And maybe in other words the thing we don't know is where are the people who supposedly were in the water. But that begs the question if it's possible that those same people got back on the boat and that maybe would happen. And maybe -- and hopefully that's what you and I will be reporting in a little bit.
MYERS: We have one hour and 39 minutes to figure this out. So, let's get on it.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Oh, you always see the glass as half-full, don't you, Chad? I appreciate that about you.
Dan Stein -- have we still got Dan, by the way? Give me a shot of Dan, just to make sure he's there.
STEIN: I'm here.
SANCHEZ: Dan is sitting here: Every time I go on the air with Sanchez, something else happens and I get interrupted. By golly, damn that Sanchez.
Dan, are you ready to go another round?
STEIN: Pardon me. What did you say?
SANCHEZ: I said, are you ready to go another round? Can we continue our conversation when we come back?
STEIN: I'm ready. I'm absolutely ready. I will take whatever you can dish out. SANCHEZ: All right, Dan, it's always good to have these conversations with you. And I think a lot of Americans are having this conversation about immigration. So, when we come back, we will conclude our conversation and hopefully we will be able to get the very latest in on the situation in Philadelphia as well.
This is your national conversation. This is RICK'S LIST. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right, top of the screen now, let's go back to that shot if we possibly can.
Welcome back to RICK'S LIST, by the way. A lot going on here, as usual. It's 3:00. And we have got some breaking news coming off the coast of Philadelphia, right on the shore there on the Delaware River. We just saw a Coast Guard helicopter that you see. You can kind of make it out. You see where the WPVI is? Right there where the WPVI -- above and left of the W. is a Coast Guard chopper that we're seeing arriving on the scene now for the first time. The other helicopter we saw before I think may have been either a news chopper or a local police marine chopper.
There's the other chopper now coming into the picture. The Coast Guard chopper is hugging the coastline. We're not sure where it's going. And for those of you who just joined us, the reason we're following this picture out of Philly is because there was a boat that apparently, according to reports, preliminary reports that we have received, was bumped or collided in some form with another barge.
And preliminary reports again indicated that as many as 30 people were thrown into the water. Since then, we have been trying to make heads or tails of this thing and figure out what happened to those 30 people. When we get that information, we are going to be sharing it with you.
In the meantime, let's hold that picture, move it over to the right, and bring Dan Stein back in. Dan, as you know, is with FAIR. FAIR is an organization that has been trying to get our government to get its act together for a long time now as far as some kind of coherent immigration policy. And he's arguing that what Arizona is doing is a step in the right direction.
I would imagine you are arguing as well -- and I think I heard you say this earlier, Dan, that what the Obama administration is doing by challenging it is a mistake.
STEIN: Well, I think they're usurping Congress' prerogative with some of their comments.
But I also think Arizona should be suing the federal government, because the federal government isn't doing the job. The federal government ought to be handling illegal immigration, but certainly ought to be telling the states what kind of programs to implement to ensure illegal aliens don't get driver's licenses, to ensure there are various point-of-interest verification procedures.
And, actually, what the administration is doing is setting up a real dilemma. The president is saying, we're not simply going to enforce immigration law. Now, if the president wants his big mass amnesty -- and we do not support that and we hope he doesn't get it -- he ought to be telling people, look, if I establish a cutoff date and people aren't going to be eligible after that, how is the federal government going to actually establish that demarcation line?
(CROSSTALK)
STEIN: Instead, he sues Arizona, and he essentially says, you're out of luck, American people. There's nothing the federal government can do to enforce or to stop illegal immigration.
SANCHEZ: Well, to represent the federal government's position on this, they're saying, A., what Arizona is trying to do is against the supremacy clause of the United States Constitution, which says, that's just not your turf. That's something that the federal government is supposed to take care of.
And, B., they're also saying that it comes into areas of violations of not only the rights of some people who may not be citizens in this country, but they necessarily may not be deportables either.
But the other point that I have to raise with you is, when you look at the crime stats, in fact, when you look at most of the statistics regarding Arizona, you see reasons that make you wonder why it is that Arizona is trying to enact this in the first place, at least given the timing.
I'm Dan, I'm looking at some numbers here. And I looked these up these morning with -- from the FBI crime stats. Crime in Arizona has gone from 2008 to 2009, it was 1,169 in Mesa. Now it's 979. Phoenix, it went down by about 200,000. Tucson, it went down by about 100,000. It's boring to read all these numbers. But you can take my word for it. I can send it to you later.
Illegal immigrants in the United States, it's gone down since 2007 by one million people. So here we are at a point where we're actually looking at maybe the things that you and I have been talking about in the past that were problems going down, and yet now is when we want to install rules like the one the people are saying in Arizona that is extremely controversial. You could argue that maybe we don't need this.
STEIN: I'm really...
SANCHEZ: Go ahead.
STEIN: I'm really thinking you and I, we must occupy the same planetary space and see the same world. I thought there were Mexican drug cartels threatening the very sovereignty of Mexico, the legitimacy of the Mexican government.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But how so?
STEIN: We can talk about drug violence, drug crime, drug corruption, right up and down the line.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: That's beautiful.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But -- that's gorgeous.
(CROSSTALK)
STEIN: That's true.
SANCHEZ: Well, it may be true. But let me bring up what I would do. And I understand this.
If I were arguing from your perspective, and I had a tough time trying to get Americans to agree with me, and I wanted to demonize illegal aliens, you know what I would do? I would somehow find a way to tie them to the drug cartel and to tie them to smugglers.
But, Dan, the fact of the matter is, most of the people who have come to the United States have nothing the hell to do with drug cartels or nothing the heck to do with smugglers either. It's like an easy Machiavellian way of getting people to dislike illegal immigrants by somehow saying they're all drug dealers. I mean, I'm sorry, but that seems to be the motivation...
(CROSSTALK)
STEIN: You're not very -- you seem to be shifting the terms of the discussion. First of all...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: No, you are, man.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
STEIN: You say crime has gone down in Arizona. Crime data...
SANCHEZ: I ask you about crime going down, and you start talking about drug cartels.
STEIN: Well, look, you have to take a look at, qualitatively, what's going on, the kind of violent crimes and the kidnappings not only in the MSAs of Arizona, but also in the rural counties, the border counties, and the areas in the suburban counties. Arizona is at the top or near the top of the FBI crime data per capita for states in the United States. We certainly should not be second-guessing the good people of Arizona and Governor Brewer on what the state interests are in ensuring better border control.
And I certainly want to applaud the courageousness of the governor and people of Arizona for telling the federal government, look, what are you leaving the American people with if you say our communities cannot control their destiny because the national government will not carry out one of its core and essential functions of an American democracy, that's control of our borders and immigration enforcement?
You're saying that our school, our hospitals, our infrastructure, our job market, we have simply lost control, we're going to be bankrupted by the impact. We got --
SANCHEZ: But that's not -- Dan --
(CROSSTALK)
STEIN: Arizona has very compelling state interests.
SANCHEZ: Dan, I have to stop you. What you just said is not true. You can't just go on the air -- I know that you think it's true. But it's --
STEIN: What did I say that wasn't true? What?
SANCHEZ: You said that illegal immigrants are bankrupting the state of Arizona. I could bring you arguments to the contrary, Dan that would show, and I'm not saying one side is right and the other side is wrong, but let's not drop it on the table on my show and say this is the way it is, because I can bring you just as many statistics that would show that you and I benefit from what illegal immigrants bring to the United States as far as the taxes they pay that they never are able to recover, the Social Security that they subsidize for you and me, the fact that they actually commit fewer crimes than most people, the fact that they use --
STEIN: Wait, wait, wait -- that is definitely not true. That crime statement is -- you are morphing all aggregate immigration --
SANCHEZ: Hold on. No, no, no, no. Let me bring it to you. Ready? You asked me to back something up, so let me back something up, Dano. According to the Immigration Policy Center, it finds that U.S.-born men --
STEIN: They're immigration lawyers, Rick.
SANCHEZ: They may be, but let me read you their statistics. U.S.-born men ages 18 to 39 are five times more likely to be incarcerated than foreign-born men of the same age group. Five times more likely --
STEIN: You've over-aggregated the data. You just aggregated all legal immigrants. Remember, legal immigrants, people who plays by the rules are vetted for criminal background checks and those sorts of things. It naturally makes sense if you over-aggregate the data you can manipulate the numbers.
I would say, why don't we try controlling our borders and enforcing the law? Let's see those wages go up and the reestablishment of fiscal sanity and the rule of law. I say, let's enforce the law.
SANCHEZ: I agree. I'm a journalist.
STEIN: We're together on this. Let's get the job done.
SANCHEZ: You're absolutely 100 percent right. But we have to be careful not to demonize good, honest guys like you or your organizations who are trying to do a good thing for America, or do demonize the other side and say that they're just here to bankrupt us and take our stuff, et cetera, et cetera, because there's some good people there, too.
STEIN: You are right, you are right. We are together on that. We need on honest, constructive debate, and I appreciate the time, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Let's do it again, Dan.
STEIN: Any time.
SANCHEZ: Dan with FAIR.
Meanwhile, let's go back to the breaking news that we've been following out of Philadelphia. This is our producer, Ross Levitt, who's standing by. He says that all people are not accounted -- Chad, did you hear that? All people are not accounted for on the Delaware River. Can we get Ross on the phone, by the way? Is he there?
ROSS LEVITT, CNN PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, I'm right here.
SANCHEZ: Sorry. I wasn't sure if you were there. Ross, tell us whatever it is that we may not know.
LEVITT: Sure. I just talked to the police on the scene right now in a very quick conversation. They said they are trying to ascertain if they have everyone accounted for. They're going through the lists of all the people who were on the boat and trying to figure out who actually made it on and all that kind of thing.
And then from there they're trying to figure out, OK, do we have everyone? Some of the names on the list are not accounted for. What they don't know is if those people somehow made it to safety and they just can't find them right now or if something, as he said, quote, "more tragic" has happened here. That's what they're trying to figure out.
SANCHEZ: I'm sorry, I certainly didn't mean to interrupt, Ross, but I'm wondering if they have been able to make it to safety. How far was this thing from shore? Could some of these people have just swam to shore?
LEVITT: You're looking at it the same way I am there. But they could have made it on a boat and maybe in the crush of activity going on there, may be not been accounted for right there and then.
The other piece of information I have is that the people who were rescued are being triaged on the scene right now. None of them, at least so far, have been transported to local hospitals.
SANCHEZ: Hey, Ross, we've got this picture that just came in. Take a look at this picture right there as we try and make out exactly what this is. Move the breaking news banner for just a minute, Roger.
LEVITT: Rick, as you look at that, you can see how chaotic that can be and how easily a situation might be where one person's name might not have been recorded in there, for they would be looking for somebody and not sure if that person's been rescued or not. That's what they're trying to figure out right now.
SANCHEZ: As I look at this, it looks like that vessel on the left -- is that the duck?
LEVITT: No.
SANCHEZ: It's not? OK. And the thing on the right with the platform coming down, that looks like part of the landing area. That's not the barge, is it?
LEVITT: I believe you're right. I believe that is the landing area.
SANCHEZ: So in other words, this is where they were bringing some people in, some of the victims, for treatment.
For those of you joining us, some 30 of them fell into the water. We don't know what their conditions are. We're getting preliminary reports now and our producer, Ross, is reporting to us now. Ross, I forgot your last name, I apologize.
LEVITT: Levitt.
SANCHEZ: Ross Levitt is reporting that some are not accounted for, but they're thinking some of them may have been able to swim to safety.
LEVITT: They don't know if it's a matter of swimming to safety or they haven't gotten their lists all jived out yet because it takes that much time to figure this stuff out.
SANCHEZ: Where was the triage? You said there was some kind of triage set up there.
LEVITT: That could have been a picture of what we were looking at. They are triaging people according to the person I talked to on the scene. So nobody has been yet transported to a local hospital, but they are -- they're being triaged right there, and obviously then trying to figure out if they are ill enough that they need to end up in the hospital or not.
SANCHEZ: Go ahead, Chad.
MYERS: Ross, this is Chad. Did the duck boat sink?
LEVITT: It's hard to tell. This person I spoke to didn't indicate that it had. Looking at the pictures that you guys are looking at, we did see an empty duck boat there. We're assuming no, but we don't know at this point. The details are still sketchy. We're going to loop back around with all of our contacts here in New York and in Philadelphia and try to figure out what's going on.
MYERS: You have no idea how well these things are built. They're random. They have them at Stone Mountain and a lot of water --
SANCHEZ: All over the country.
LEVITT: There are two duck boat companies in Philadelphia, and one of them uses old military boats. I don't know if that's this company or if it's the other company, but they use old military boats to build these things. So yes, they are quite sturdy.
MYERS: And they could be retrofitted and filled with foam where they couldn't possibly sink. There's no way to know as each one is rebuilt individually.
SANCHEZ: A duck is a WWII amphibious truck used by the army during that time. People from all over the country are watching our coverage of this story. Obviously there's a lot of high interest as there is with the immigration story that we're following.
Stay right there, folks. We're going to try to get you through this and bring you the very latest out of Philadelphia as well as the rest of the stories that we're bringing you on this day. This is your national conversation. This is "RICK'S LIST." I'm Rick Sanchez with Chad Myers. And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Once again, we're following several stories for you, the very latest on what's been going on over the last 48 hours that we've been covering for you comprehensively regarding the illegal immigration story in Arizona, and this story that we learned of about 35 minutes ago.
We were told a barge of some form has collided with one of those amphibious tourist boats/truck that is they use to take tourists around all the different sites. This happens to be in Philadelphia. That's the Delaware River that you're looking at right there.
Apparently some 30 people were thrown into the water and not all of them are accounted for. They've set up a triage there. We've got correspondents and producers working the story for us. We hope to be able to hear from some marine police officials there on the scene. As soon as they do, we will turn that sound around and let you hear what they have to say.
In the meantime, I want to get you caught up on some of the other stories that we're following for you on this day. Take a look at this piece of sound.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDSEY LOHAN, ACTRESS: I'm not taking this as a joke. It's my life. And it's my career. And something I've worked for my entire life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Because we emphasize social media on this particular newscast, we look at the stories trending on any given day. This is one of the big trenders on this day. Lindsay Lohan is headed to jail. We're going to show you more of her tearful plea and why she was sending messages to the judge or the cameras that were shooting her at the time. That's ahead.
Also, is Justice Thomas' wife, Clarence Thomas' wife, taking on the president of the United States? And what position does that put him in? She's accused the president of steering the country toward tyranny while her husband makes decisions about the president's plans for the country.
What's Roland Martin going to say about this? In fact, he happens to have a lot to say about this and it's coming up next, "R&R" on "RICK'S LIST."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. I want to show you something real quick. Roger, you want to put it over there. You see that one right there, the twitter board.
Remember Daryn Kagan? We used to work together here at CNN. She's a fantastic person. She says, "Hey Rick, family and I were just on that duck boat tour over Memorial Day. They don't take names, only head count. Seemed very safe." One again, that's Daryn Kagan letting us know how they account for people there. It's great to hear from her.
A CNN radio correspondent is joining us by phone. Who do we have? This is Steve Kastenbaum standing by. What do you have for us, Steve?
STEVE KASTENBAUM, CNN RADIO NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Rick, I just got off the phone a few minutes ago with the people at the sector Delaware Bay with the U.S. coast guard. They tell me they have confirmed there were 35 passengers and two crew members on board this duck boat, the tourist boat.
They confirmed, again, this is according to the U.S. coast guard, the folks coordinating the search and rescue effort right now, that 35 people have been pulled out of the Delaware River. But as of just a few moments ago, the latest report they had, two people were still unaccounted for, and that's why we're still seeing this activity on the Delaware River right now.
SANCHEZ: We've got some brand-new video, I believe, that's coming in. Roger, put me back on camera two, if you ca can. Two people still unaccounted for, Steve?
KASTENBAUM: Yes, that's according to the coast guard and the folks coordinating this search and rescue effort with an interview I did with them over the phone a few minutes ago. Of course this event is unfolding right before our eyes, so it's changing by the minute. But as of just a few minutes ago, they were still looking for two individuals.
SANCHEZ: I think, Angie, can we go to this tape -- this is KYW. We have some brand-new tape coming in. It's from their website. Can we watch it? That's as big as we can make it because we're watching it off of their website. Steve, can you watch our air right now?
KASTENBAUM: Yes, I can see that. And this is consistent with the reports we're hearing on CNN radio affiliate KYW. Their reporters were talking about passengers seen in the Delaware River being pulled out by coast guard vessels and good Samaritans, boaters that just happened to be in the area at the time.
SANCHEZ: That's what you're supposed to do if you're a boater.
So these were people thrown into the water. It looks to me like the lady on the left isn't wearing a life vest.
KASTENBAUM: That's exactly what it looks like there.
SANCHEZ: In fact, she is not -- or he is not -- that person is not wearing a life vest.
KASTENBAUM: The reports that the coast guard had was that the duck boat -- and this is the call that came into the coast guard, according to the officer that I spoke with on the phone. The vessel itself, the duck boat, got hit by the barge. That's the call that came in to the coast guard.
Whether or not that's exactly how the case -- this incident unfolded, obviously an investigation will ensue and we'll find out exactly how this happened. But there was some sort of collision with the barge and the boat.
SANCHEZ: But it just makes you wonder. Usually neither one of these boats are high-speed vehicles. We're not talking about cigarette boats here or cruisers or anything of that type.
We're talking about a tourist boat that usually goes real slow and a barge usually doesn't go that -- how did they hit each other hard enough, how was the impact so severe that 35 people were thrown into the water? I'm just left with that question, Steve.
KASTENBAUM: And that is the question. These duck boat, if you're familiar with them, they're the type of craft that you would be familiar with if you've seen World War II footage or -- they're the vehicles that were used as landing craft --
SANCHEZ: Amphibious vehicles, yes.
KASTENBAUM: Right. And they've been converted into tourist vehicles in a lot of cities that have waterways that are popular destinations for tourists such as Philadelphia. So you're right. They do travel very slowly in the water. And the barge is also a very slow-moving vessel.
I know from my experience here watching water traffic in water traffic in New York harbor, barges are often towed by tug boats, and there is some difference between the barge and the tug boat often, or in other instances if it's not being towed but being pushed the barge is ahead of the tug boat and the captain of the tug boat vessel is a significant distance behind the bow of the barge.
So who saw what will probably come into play here.
SANCHEZ: Hopefully we'll be able to get some more definitive answers. We really thank you, Steve. You've shed new light and given us new information.
Again, Steve is reporting that as many as 35 people may have been taken out of the water, but two, once again, two are still unaccounted for. That does not mean that one would need to think the worst in this case. They could have been taken on -- rescued by another boat and we just don't know yet. They could have swam to shore. There's a lot of possibilities. So as we get definitive answers we expect to be sharing them with you.
In the meantime I want to bring in a segment that we do for you once a week. And this one has to do with -- yet while we follow that story, by the way, and anything new we'll bring it to you -- the president of the United States makes decisions daily that can and will be reviewed by the Supreme Court.
So what happens when one of those justices is consistently opposed to the president? Well, you might argue that's OK, right? After all, everyone has a right to their own political ideology.
What about if you add this to the equation? That same Supreme Court justice's wife is not only opposed to the president of the United States but speaks out publicly against the president of the United States, so much so that she's actually been quoted as saying that the president is steering the nation toward tyranny.
Those are strong words to use. "Tyranny"? "Politico" reports this week that Virginia Thomas, the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, is now growing her tea party with anonymous donors and becoming a real political force.
Time for "R&R." Roland Martin is joining us, and he has a lot to say about this. What's your take, Roland? Some people would say, you know what, a man can't control whatever his wife wants to think. ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, first of all, I don't believe a man can control what his wife thinks, a wife cannot control what her husband thinks. But the reality is you're talking about the wife of a Supreme Court justice, one of only nine.
And so I do believe that it is unseemly for his wife to have this kind of role in this affair. It is no different, frankly, than if you have a liberal justice and that person's wife or husband is involved to the degree that she is involved, because you cannot suggest to me that they don't have conversations, they don't have dialogue.
So he might be able to say, well, I only make decisions based upon the law, itself, but surely one's personal view comes into play.
SANCHEZ: Are you worried more about her influence on him or his influence on her? Is there almost a symbiotic relationship here?
MARTIN: No. What I'm worried about is this is not a case where you have 100 United States senators or 435 members of the House of Representatives. What you're talking about here is one of nine Supreme Court justices.
When they make a decision, that's final. I mean, they are the last end of this whole process, one of three branches. And so I think that is even more sensitive than any of the other branches, you know, of our system here.
So, again, that's my issue there in terms of her public role and the comments that she makes and what does that mean in terms of the conversations internally at home? This is different than someone just writing a check.
SANCHEZ: But even beyond that, let me ask you this, is there a possibility that she could use the powerful position that her husband is in as a Supreme Court justice as some would argue as powerful as the president in fact because the president is going to be out of that -- you could be Supreme Court for the rest of your life.
MARTIN: That's right.
SANCHEZ: She could use his influence to raise money to become even more powerful, and should that be questioned?
MARTIN: That's one of the things critics have raised. But also you look at the fact these are anonymous donors. What does that speak to?
Again, I believe when you are a Supreme Court justice you are in a whole different scenario than anybody else. And so to have your wife involved in a campaign making these kinds of comments against the president, or raising half a million dollars anonymously, you know, in terms of what kind of impact can you have? You talk about tyranny?
SANCHEZ: That's a very strong word. You're right, probably one she wishes she could take back. We wanted to find out if she would. We called her today, we called Virginia Thomas, but she has not agreed to come on and answer our questions. If at any time she does, obviously she is more than welcome to come here and answer questions in her own right.
By the way, quick mention of sports before I let you go.
MARTIN: Right.
SANCHEZ: Your good friend Stephen A. Smith is reporting that LeBron James will actually join Chris Bosh and Dwayne Wade in the Miami Heat unis. He's sticking to that statement. Do you think that will happen tomorrow? Do you think we will have the greatest basketball team ever assembled?
MARTIN: First of all, I would not say it is the greatest testimony ever assembled. When you look at the Boston Celtics winning championships in the '60s, that is the standard by which you measure teams.
(LAUGHTER)
I have talked to sources in Miami and there is a belief it is a 75/25 chance of LeBron going to the Miami heat. Certainly that would bring tears to those folks in Cleveland. But again, I compare it on twitter, LeBron going to Miami with bosh and Dwayne Wade with the Lakers with Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul Jabar as well as James Worthy for the three stars ---
SANCHEZ: It's almost like the only one missing is Kobe.
By the way, I have to do something on the air I promised I would do.
MARTIN: Yes, speaking of sports.
SANCHEZ: Just hold on. Let me bite the bullet and do this. You and I had a bet. My team in Miami is Florida International University in the college world series against Texas A&M and I told you they would win that game, but they didn't. They lost to Texas A&M and as a result --
MARTIN: What was the score?
SANCHEZ: Shut up.
MARTIN: 17-3?
SANCHEZ: I told you if I lost I'd wear an Aggie cap. Get a good shot. Here I am.
MARTIN: There you go.
SANCHEZ: Aggies cap. Go ahead.
MARTIN: Now you got to say "gig 'em." SANCHEZ: Thank you, Roland. You got me again. I'd still be chewing gum. See you, Roland.
MARTIN: I can't wait to play you in golf with by aggie attire on.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: All right, the Obama administration is suing Arizona over its immigration law. Some are wondering why the new law, when the crime went down. That's ahead on the list.
And of course this story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOHAN: I'm not taking this as a joke. It's my life and it's my career and something I worked for my entire life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Lindsay Lohan headed to jail. Some are saying her sentence is too extreme. Is she sending a message to the judge? How about the cameras shooting her? That's ahead, right here. You're watching your national conversation. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right, as we begin this newscast once again, we call this our restarts. First of all we welcome all of you who are watching overseas. We are honored to report this is the newscast of record for armed forces airwaves and many of you watching from overseas, soldiers, are watching us.
This story that's developing now in Philadelphia where apparently a boat has been -- a tourist boat has been hit by a barge. Sarah Hoy is joining us now. Sarah, we just talked to Steve Kastenbaum a little while ago, and he reported to us that as many as 35 people were thrown into the water. He said two are still unaccounted for.
What we have not yet been able to come to grips with, and this is what Chad and I were talking about earlier, was where's the boat?
