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Rick's List
Afghan War Documents Leaked; Verdict Soon in Blagojevich Case?; Tony Hayward on the Way Out?
Aired July 26, 2010 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: In fact, as we begin this newscast, I'm honored to report that we're on the news of -- we are on the news of record for American Forces Network at this hour all over the world. We welcome the troops watching us overseas.
Here is your "National Conversation".
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Here is what is making the LIST tonight.
The bombshell out of Afghanistan: Insurgents used Stinger missiles? Dead civilians. The Iran connection. The Pakistan connection. Why didn't we know these things?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have really only just scratched the surface.
SANCHEZ: The WikiLeak, what is it? We take you through it.
(CROSSTALK)
TONY HAYWARD, CEO, BP GROUP: ... and stay over there.
You know, I would like my life back.
SANCHEZ: The P.R. disaster that is BP may claim its biggest victim. Is Tony Hayward out?
OSCAR HERNANDEZ, MAYOR OF BELL, CALIFORNIA: If you want a good service, I think you deserve to get good money, don't you?
SANCHEZ: Yes, but do you need a $400,000-plus-a-year police chief? And how about a city manager that makes almost double?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you justify $800,000?
SANCHEZ: There is a city council meeting tonight. Will the mayor step down?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're taking our money and you're paying each other?
SANCHEZ: We continue on the story we brought to the nation's attention. Why is this woman walking out in front of an oncoming train? She can't see. What happens next?
The lists you need to know about. Who's today's most intriguing? Who's landed on the list you don't want to be on? Who's making news on Twitter? It's why I keep a list.
Pioneering tomorrow's cutting-edge news right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: All right. Time to pick up the pace for you of today's LIST.
For those of you just now checking in, number one, unquestionably, we're drilling down on the mountain of classified military reports that suddenly have become available online. They're calling them the WikiLeaks, as in leaked, as in given, information that you're maybe not supposed to be seeing. The
Web site is called WikiLeaks that posted the thousands of documents overnight. I have been going through some of this stuff. So has the staff here with "RICK'S LIST". So have many producers at CNN and around the world.
We want to take a few items and drill down on it for you to try and make sense of exactly what it is that's in these documents that you have probably been hearing so much about.
So -- and, to be transparent by the way, it handed over the documents to three newspapers, WikiLeaks did, because they don't disseminate the information. They get the information. They gave it to "The Guardian" in London. They gave it to "Der Spiegel." That's the German newspaper. And they also gave it to "The New York Times."
The papers had to agree not to print the story until now. On to number one on list. This is -- this is what I was just talking to, if you caught of my -- tail end of my conversation with Erick Erickson about.
The Taliban, according to some of the information contained in these documents, is now using portable heat-seeking missiles, much like the Stinger missiles that were used during the mujahedeen war against the Russians. The military has never copped to this, never admitted this, at least not in reports that we have seen.
See those right there? Those are the shoulder-mounted devices like these. An American C-47 or Chinook transport helicopter we know was struck shortly after takeoff in one incident reported in these documents.
Now, here is what was reported. Listen to the language here. Multiple witnesses saw a smoke trail behind the missile as it rushed toward the helicopter. The smoke trail was an important indicator. Rocket-propelled grenades do not leave them. Heat-seeking missiles do. The crew of the other helicopters reported the downing as a surface-to-air missile, SAM strike, all right? Well, that's not what the public story that was put out by a NATO spokesperson the day it happened.
And this is what's troubling some Americans. Here's the quote from "The New York Times." "Clearly, there were enemy fighters in the area," said the spokesman at the time, Major John Thomas. "It is not impossible for small-arms fire to bring down a helicopter."
So, in that quote, he's making it sound like it was just a small- arms fire, whatever is meant by that, while there is conflicting information that seems to show it may have been a SAM, a surface-to- air missile.
I want to bring in our expert on this right now as we go through the material.
Paul Rieckhoff is good enough to join us now.
Paul, you there? You with us?
PAUL RIECKHOFF, FOUNDER & EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN VETERANS OF AMERICA: I am. Good to be with you, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Just that one part right there, the possibility that these guys may be using, implementing these shoulder-harnessed missiles, we hadn't necessarily heard that officially from the military, nor from reporters there. What -- what's your take on that?
RIECKHOFF: Well, I think, overall, when you look at this situation, Rick, we understand that government accountability and transparency are important, but it needs to be balanced with the need to protect national security and the safety of our troops.
And what folks have to understand is, there are critical security concerns sometimes when you withhold certain pieces of information. For example, the U.S. doesn't expose troop movements. We don't say where our people are going and when, because they could reveal important techniques and procedures of the U.S. military.
If you let those kinds of techniques out in the global space, that can empower our -- our enemies. That can -- that can really put our troops in danger. If we knew, for example, a weakness on a Humvee, and that was in a classified document that WikiLeaks put out there, that would definitely endanger our troops.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But what about -- but what about...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But, Paul, what about this one issue? Let's just stick to the Stingers right now. And we will call them Stingers. We don't know if they actually were Stingers or not. But given what you and I know about the effectiveness of those Stingers when used against the Russians, if there is a multitude of them out there and they're being used against our guys and we don't know about it, isn't that something Americans need to know, when billions and billions and billions of their tax money is being used in this war and we're constantly making decisions as about -- about whether we should stay or go?
RIECKHOFF: Well -- well, maybe. But let me tell you this. Now, also, al Qaeda knows it. So, now our enemies know that Stinger missiles may or may not be effective against bringing down C-130s.
I mean, this is part of why...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
RIECKHOFF: ... the military keeps certain things classified.
And I think we also have to look at WikiLeaks themselves here. I mean, this is a platform that operates without standards. It's run by an anti-war activist who has said he is bent on ending the war in Afghanistan.
And -- and this published material supports his agenda. We're a little disappointed, as a veterans group, that the mainstream media is running with this information like it is facts on the ground about Afghanistan. This provides a very incomplete view of what's happening on the ground.
And it's a component. And I think we really need to look at Julian Assange, who has called for full transparency, but is running an organization under a veil of secrecy that operates outside of U.S. regulations. He doesn't disclose his primary sources.
SANCHEZ: But...
RIECKHOFF: I mean, here is a bit of hypocrisy...
SANCHEZ: But -- but to be -- but...
RIECKHOFF: ... here coming out of WikiLeaks.
SANCHEZ: Well, OK, but -- but, to be fair -- and, look, I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't care either way, but from everything I have read from General Jones, for example, and everything I have read coming from the White House, it doesn't sound like they're saying this is all made-up crap, we don't believe it, we think that the media community should ignore it.
As a matter of fact, they seem to be saying they're bothered by the fact that it's out there, but they're not putting it down.
RIECKHOFF: Well, I have -- I have yet to talk to anybody who has made their way through the 91,000 pages, including the people from WikiLeaks themselves.
SANCHEZ: That is a fair point.
RIECKHOFF: I mean, if you -- we have -- we have got to put it in context and we have got to make sure that there is no information out there.
And I would argue, Rick, you do have a dog in this fight. There are American troops in harm's way right now getting shot and killed. And if WikiLeaks is endangering them, we need to push back and -- and the American public needs to push back and understand that we have got men and women's in harm's way. And that means to be something of paramount...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But if they're also -- but hold -- but hold on. Here's where -- here's where this gets interesting. Here is the role of my -- my role as a journalist.
My role as a journalist is also to protect those troops with the truth, so that they're not getting buffaloed with somebody else who has a dog in this fight who wants to make sure they're staying there, either, A, for personal reasons or, B, for monetary reasons.
Now, we have -- we have learned this in the past in this country through examples in Vietnam and others, that truth is important. I'm not saying in this particular case every journalist has to go out there and just put this information out there without checking with the military to see what harm it might bring.
But to say that the public doesn't deserve to know, when it's their money and their sons and daughters' blood that is being spilled, I think that can also be a reckless decision, Paul. Am I wrong?
RIECKHOFF: Well, I understand that the public has a right to know.
But let me give you another example.
SANCHEZ: In a democracy -- in a democracy, yes.
RIECKHOFF: But let me -- let me -- let me give you another example. Does the American public and the entire world have a right to know the president's travel schedule? Do they have a right to know exactly where he is going to be, what the security measures are going to be?
SANCHEZ: Well, of course not.
RIECKHOFF: Right. That is my point here is, if you have dealt with secure information, if you have dealt with top-secret and classified and secure information, you understand that it is a very careful issue.
SANCHEZ: Well, but -- but what you and I are arguing about is absolute restrictions, as opposed to some information being disseminated. Are you saying -- and, here, let me get you on the record -- are you saying none of this should be reported, Paul?
RIECKHOFF: I am not saying that.
I am saying that, like everyone else, I have yet to go through the 91,000 pages. And we need to exercise a little bit of restraint here. Don't rush to judgment., And understand that Julian Assange, who heads WikiLeaks, is an anti-war activist who has repeatedly cast a very unfair light on the American military and on the American population in general.
So, I think you have got to take it with a grain of salt and we have got to be responsible and we have got to encourage the press and everyone else not to rush to judgment here.
SANCHEZ: That's a good point. And you know what? This conversation that you and I just had I think is an important conversation and probably one that journalists and Americans and political leaders and military leaders should have as well, because it -- it seems to me -- and I got to let you go because there's a lot of other stuff that we have to get to -- it seems to be there is no ironclad answer to this, but it's in finding that -- that compromise that we might be able to do this the most justice.
You get the last word.
RIECKHOFF: No, I think that's right, but I think we have to look at the source, look at the primary sources, which we still don't know, and look at WikiLeaks themselves.
The government may not be telling us everything, but WikiLeaks isn't either. And I think we have got to take that into consideration.
SANCHEZ: Paul Rieckhoff, good guest. I'm so glad that we had a chance to discuss this and go through this. And, hopefully, we will get a chance to do this again real soon. And we will stay on the story and report what we can, and we won't report other parts of it, I suppose, as we go through it.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Thanks so much. Appreciate it.
RIECKHOFF: Any time, Rick. Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Take -- take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You believe for a week that that was Marlena.
Ultimate, it's the hospital who told you my dad.
(END VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ: A horrific case of mistaken identity. Friends and family of a college student were gearing up for her funeral after hearing she had died in a car accident. But then they learned that she's actually alive. The disturbing and emotional details of this story are coming up.
Also, the former governor of Illinois promised to testify at his own corruption trial, but Rod Blagojevich, he never did. Now prosecutors and his defense are making their closing arguments in this. How soon could we hear a verdict? That's next right here on the LIST. I'm Rick Sanchez. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We do a LIST here and this is the part of the LIST that we call the roundup list.
So, we're watching these stories for you, and we're ready to go. Number one: Remember this scene last August; the man convicted in the Lockerbie bombing is set free in his homeland of Libya? It's not sitting well with at least two U.S. senators, who want to know if his release was or was not part of a deal between the Libyan government and BP over permission to drill off the coast there of Libya. The Senate hearing is set for later this week.
Foreign Relation Committee members have questions, plenty of questions.
Number two: Blago, as in Rod Blagojevich. His corruption trial enters a new phase today, a phase closer to the end, closing arguments. The former governor of Illinois did not testify in his own defense as expected the charges that he tried to sell a Senate seat. Prosecutors painted Blagojevich's administration as corrupt, dating all the way back to 2002. The jury gets the case after closing arguments.
And here is number three: President Obama just a short time ago in the Rose Garden. Not much good to say about Republican lawmakers who are against the campaign finance bill before the Senate right now. He accused GOP leaders of playing political games and allowing special interests and foreign influence to potentially hold sway over U.S. elections.
That is our roundup list.
A warning now: Don't leave your car unlocked when there is a slight chance a bear could somehow come walking by. The owners of a car found out the hard way. Find out what happens in this case. That's ahead.
Also, remember this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAYWARD: There's no one who wants this thing over more than I do. You know, I would like my life back. (END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Oh, he wants his life back. He may soon be starting a brand-new life. There are reports that BP chief Tony Hayward is on the way out. The details and the rumblings about who might take his place and what's going on with this one.
Stay right there. Your LIST continues. I'm Rick Sanchez. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. There's several pieces of information going on. Chad Myers is joining us now.
Let's talk about what's going on in the Gulf, because that still is not settled, right?
First of all, we understand that Tony Hayward may be out of here. Although it's being reported, but not confirmed, it looks likely. Still don't know the conditions of his resignation, and we still don't know who is going to replace him, although there is a lot of talk it could be a Yankee.
CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
MYERS: Yes, right.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Yes, that's the...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: That's the -- that's the talk across the pond.
All right, now let's talk about what's going on. Static kill, is it still taking place? What are they trying to do now?
MYERS: They are just putting boats back in place. I mean, they're -- they are finally getting the drill ships back in, the -- the riser pipes getting back into the drills.
SANCHEZ: The ones they removed because of the storm?
MYERS: Correct, right? And then people were going, God, they overreacted to this -- to this Tropical Storm Bonnie.
SANCHEZ: No. No.
MYERS: Why would you put anyone in danger...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MYERS: ... leaving them out there trying to fight a tropical storm?
I know it died.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MYERS: But what -- what if it was a 60-mile-per-hour storm? The well was capped. There was no oil coming out. And just take the risk away from losing more lives.
SANCHEZ: Well, and you and I both know these things can turn to hurricanes quickly.
MYERS: Absolutely.
SANCHEZ: It didn't, but it could have.
MYERS: Sure.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MYERS: And you know what Andrew did. Right?
(CROSSTALK)
MYERS: Andrew was a big storm. It was no question it was a big storm.
But when it got just south of Miami, to Homestead, that storm just put its arms in, and that eye just got to be 10 miles an hour -- 10 miles wide and all of a sudden a 120-mile-per-hour wind became a 150-, 160-mile-per-hour wind and all of a sudden things were just going haywire.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MYERS: Right? And that can happen. You can bring your arms in of a storm, even though it's only at 35, 40 miles per hour. In one fell swoop one time around the eyewall all of a sudden that eyewall collapses to a smaller eyewall, your winds double.
SANCHEZ: And then it becomes...
MYERS: Then you've got boats out there.
SANCHEZ: It becomes tight, strong, and fast.
MYERS: And -- and why would you have ships out there?
SANCHEZ: Right.
MYERS: Right.
MYERS: So, yes. Static kill is being hooked back up. I think they are going to have to do something else with static kill.
I do believe that they are going to have to release some of the pressure to get static kill to work now. We're up to 6,900-plus PSI, Which has been going up, which is great.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MYERS: And They want it to go up. They don't want it to go down. That means something broke.
SANCHEZ: So, with static kill, we're talking about just throwing a bunch of cement in there and eventually...
MYERS: No, mud.
SANCHEZ: Mud.
MYERS: Mud.
SANCHEZ: Mud.
MYERS: The mud must -- that heavy mud that they tried the last time before the junk shot, before the...
SANCHEZ: And that...
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
MYERS: ... all that stuff...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Right. Right. Right. Everything else.
(CROSSTALK)
MYERS: Golf balls.
SANCHEZ: But this would be fini.
MYERS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Done.
MYERS: Done.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MYERS: The reason it didn't happen well last time is that because there was so much dynamic pressure, which means it's moving, all that pressure was pushing up on the mud that they were trying to pump down, the mud had no chance of filling in the well. The mud just got pushed back out of the well. Well, now there's nothing going out anymore.
SANCHEZ: Well, what -- finally, when might this happen, as far as you know?
MYERS: If you hook this up and you start pumping in mud, it can be all over in 48 hours. They can get control of this well in 48 hours. They already have control of this well.
SANCHEZ: So, they're just waiting for the government to give them the OK to go ahead and do the operation?
MYERS: I believe that they are waiting for the drilling operations of the relief well to go farther. That's just in case something goes wrong. They still will have those relief wells ready to go.
SANCHEZ: That's...
MYERS: Why mess with it?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
MYERS: It's not broken.
SANCHEZ: Because it's almost done anyway.
(LAUGHTER)
MYERS: It's -- right -- don't break it.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MYERS: It's not broken. It's not leaking. Leave it alone. They will get it.
SANCHEZ: Thanks for the update.
MYERS: Yes, buddy.
SANCHEZ: Good to see you.
All right, her family thought that she was dead. What a story this is. There's a -- an unbelievable case of mistaken identity. It's left two families looking for answers in a nightmare scenario. Wow. Brooke Baldwin has the emotional story on this one. That's coming up in a little bit.
Also, secrets exposed. The Web site has published the classified diaries of the war in Afghanistan. Everybody is talking about it, not just what's in the report, but the -- the effectiveness, the propriety of reporting it in the first place, or releasing the information, as WikiLeaks has.
Reaction from you and the major players involved, that's next right here on the LIST. I'm Rick Sanchez. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SANCHEZ: Once again, one of the biggest stories that we're following on this day involves some leaks that have been furnished to a Web site called WikiLeaks. They don't publish it, but they gave it to three newspapers. They gave it to "The New York Times." They gave it to "The Guardian" out in England, and they gave it to the German newspaper "Der Spiegel."
So, as the information flows out -- and there are tons of documents -- we are going to be sharing with you the relevant information that is already being discussed out there.
Then we're taking on the question as well -- and I have been seeing a lot of these on tweets, by the way. Many of you are weighing in saying yes or no to whether this information, even if it's true, is something you really want to know, because some of it is classified.
In fact, let's take a look at a couple of those, if we possibly can. "Especially if it puts our troops in more danger, we don't need to know everything." There's one.
Here is another. "Most info should not be reported on the war. The entire world does not need to know every step the U.S. makes."
The other one says: "Loose lips sink ships. Applied in WW1 and WW2, so why not now? There are things people ought not know."
And this one says: "WikiLeaks handles classified documents like a kid who found his daddy's shotgun, with no sense of responsibility or danger."
And then there is this that says: "The main reason for the government to classify anything is to avoid embarrassment. No one is in danger from the WikiLeaks reports."
And those are the ones that we have been getting from you in just the last little bit.
Now, take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They stole our money, and this community could have looked a lot better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: He is just one of the protesters in California speaking out against the inflated salaries of some of his city leaders. The citizens have a brand-new target. And that person is on the list that you don't want to be on. That's ahead.
Also, terror at the track -- look at this video. Have you seen this? A woman is walking right over the edge just as a train is coming. What happens after that? It will -- it will shock you and impress you. We promise. Stay with us. This is your "National Conversation". This is your list. We call it RICK'S LIST. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Hey. Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
There are indeed some good samaritans, and then there are some great samaritans. Let's do "Fotos."
ANNOUNCER: Aye dios mio.
SANCHEZ: Atlanta. A visually impaired woman walks out onto a train station platform, doesn't stop, falls directly onto the tracks. The worst part, the train is fast approaching. One brave man rushes to pull her out. Other commuters pitch in. The train stops four feet -- four feet -- from where the woman lay on the tracks. And the crowd pulls her to safety. What a scene, like from a movie.
Voorhees, New Jersey, now. How is this for irony? The truck is supposed to anchor the crane, right? But when the crane fell on the Olive Garden restaurant, the tables were suddenly turned. Look at that. Stuck on the restaurant's roof, the crane pulled the truck off the ground, where it hung in midair.
Denver now. Apparently, this bear was tired of walking. It climbed into the car, evidently knocking it into neutral. The car rolled down the hill, and the door slammed shut. The bear was trapped. And that's when the real damage started.
That's right. Ouch. You can see all of our "Fotos Del Dia," by the way. Just go to our blog, which is CNN.com/ricksanchez.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think there is no doubt that this is a concerning development in operational security. And as we said earlier, it poses a very real and potential threat to those that are working hard every day to keep us safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: WikiLeaks releases thousands of classified documents, and it's starting to get a lot of pushback from a lot of folks. For example, the White House and some at the Pentagon. They say troops are now in greater risk because of this.
Are they? Would you want to know? If it's all true, do you want to know it or do you prefer not to know?
We're getting many of your tweets. We'll be sharing that information throughout this newscast. Stay right there as we reveal some of the most disturbing revelations coming out of this information.
Then look at that young lady right there. Her family thought that she survived a car crash only to find that out she was actually in the morgue. It's about two young ladies. They kind of look alike. It's a trending story. People are talking about it out there on the Internet.
And Brooke Baldwin's got it for us. She's going to join us with that in just a little bit.
Welcome aboard.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello.
SANCHEZ: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Wow. This is horrible. It's one of those stories where as a parent --
BALDWIN: You think how could this be possible?
SANCHEZ: Yes. The more you read about it, the more you go oh, my God. As troubling as it is, just the situation at hand for everybody, it gets even worse when you consider what happened, how this thing got turned around.
BALDWIN: Right.
SANCHEZ: Tell us about it.
BALDWIN: So here is the situation. And it is a situation of mistaken identity. And for any parent this is essentially your worst nightmare.
You have a bunch of teenagers. There were five teenagers, Phoenix area, and this awful car accident. Two of them died.
One set of parents told their daughter was dead. The other set told the daughter made it. But somehow the girls' identities got confused.
Let's roll the sound bite.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believed for a week that that was Marlena. Ultimately, it's the hospital who told my dad. They came out and said, "Your daughter is on the second floor," and then that's it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: That was the voice of one of the brothers.
The authorities misidentified these two young women. And you can see -- I guess they kind of look alike.
SANCHEZ: Yes. Yes. BALDWIN: Similar smiles.
Misidentified, Abby Guerra, who you see there on the left, is the girl who died in that accident back on July 19th. But it was actually Marlena Cantu who was on the right who was killed.
Guerra, still in critical condition. Both families, as you can imagine, they're devastated. And still, the young woman who is still holding on, again, critical condition. We don't know. We don't know if she'll make it.
But just a total nightmare for those families.
SANCHEZ: Well, yes, because the one who had not died thought that she was deceased. And then it was the complete opposite with the others.
Do you know if the families ever came together? I mean, were they in the same waiting room?
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: Not that I know of. I would imagine if I were a family in grieving I'd want to stay in my own room, but I don't know. No, I believe the young women were friends, obviously, to be in the car together, but I don't know if the families have communicated.
SANCHEZ: Yes. I'm just kind of thinking in my head of the irony that one of the parents probably went to the others and said, "I'm so sorry for your loss," as anyone would do.
BALDWIN: Perhaps they have. Perhaps that will help.
SANCHEZ: And then all of a sudden it turned out to be their loss instead.
BALDWIN: Right.
SANCHEZ: I mean, what a difficult situation.
All right. You're joining us tonight at 8:00. You have more information on some of the other stories we've been following today, including Tony Hayward.
BALDWIN: Right, including Tony Hayward. Is he stepping down? Is he not stepping down?
We also have -- this is unbelievable. Our producer Ed showed me this picture of this face transplant.
SANCHEZ: Not Ed.
BALDWIN: Ed. Yes, Ed.
SANCHEZ: That Ed. OK.
BALDWIN: That Ed from New York.
So this is amazing, scientifically, that they've been able to transplant this face. This patient is now talking. We will hear from that patient coming up at 8:00.
And we have one more trending segment, but I'll leave that up for your imagination, 8:00.
SANCHEZ: I'm so glad you worked with Ed on that segment, because he's good, Ed.
BALDWIN: Ed's good. I'm giving him props.
SANCHEZ: I'm just giving you a little bit grief as usual.
BALDWIN: A hard time.
SANCHEZ: We'll be right back.
But take a look at this before we go to break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're taking our money and you're paying each other? And you think we're not going to be mad about it? You're out of your mind!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Yes. She's going to keep screaming, too.
OK. Remember, we were the first to bring you this story from a national standpoint, obviously. They've covered it out there locally.
People living in this blue collar city say, are you kidding me? How much did you pay the city manager? How much did you pay the police chief with our tax money?
Well, the outrage has now gone statewide. The attorney general is talking about this, and he's going to be joining us tonight as well.
Also, what it all has to do with "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On." Remember, that's coming up.
I know, it's one of your favorites. We'll have it next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
When citizens declare war on their leaders it is a fascinating story. When they actually take to the streets and win those battles, it is a moment. That moment is happening right now in a poor city in California. We have been bringing this story to you. We are committed to this story. The outrage has already inspired the resignations of several officials making monster salaries while the people they serve go without.
But the fight is far from over. And the public's latest target has found himself on "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On.,"
Let me remind you, first of all, that California is, in many ways, out of money. Cities are struggling. People are desperately looking for work, including the city of Bell.
Fourteen miles south of Los Angeles, there it is, fewer than 40,000 people. And listen to this -- one in six Bell residents reportedly lives in poverty.
But the city manager, Robert Rizzo, he makes more than $787,000 a year. That's almost twice what the president of the United States makes.
If you're not sick to your stomach hearing that yet, take a look at what he reportedly stands to make each year in pension payments. Yes, pension payments.
His assistant, by the way, makes more than $370,000 a year, and the city's police chief makes nearly $460,000 a year. That's 50 percent more than the police chief in Los Angeles makes. Los Angeles.
Remember, taxpayers are on the hook for all of these salaries, and once the numbers were made public the taxpayers, they got angry.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're taking our money and you're paying each other? And you think we're not going to be mad about it? You're out of your mind!
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SANCHEZ: Yes, they are mad about it. Listen to this. One protester said he used to work for City Hall, running an after school program and teaching kids and older folks how to use computers.
Then two years ago he says he got a pink slip. He says the official told him the town just didn't have enough money to pay him for his job anymore.
Well, last week those officials announced plans to resign.
Fast forward to this past weekend. We're told hundreds of people continued to speak out, marching to the homes of four city council members who each reportedly make $100,000 a year. For some context, another city council member makes just $8,000 a year.
Listen to how the mayor of Bell justified the bloated salaries last week during the first wave of outrage as we reported it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR OSCAR HERNANDEZ, BELL, CALIFORNIA: If you want a good service, I think you deserve to get good money. Don't you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't have a lot of money coming into this city. When you compare what you have coming into Los Angeles, that city manager doesn't make close to that much money. How do you justify $800,000 in a city this small and this poor?
HERNANDEZ: I don't know about in other cities. The only thing I say, this community, they're receiving a good service. They deserve to have the best service.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They can get the best service for a lot less than $800,000 a year.
HERNANDEZ: Well, you have to have good employees to do that.
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SANCHEZ: Hours from now, the city council is scheduled to meet, and people are expected to gather, groan and call for the mayor's head. The state's attorney general has just ordered the officials to give up important documents related to these salaries.
We invited the mayor of Bell -- his name is Oscar Hernandez -- to appear on this show. We prefer to talk to him directly.
Because the mayor can't seem to give a worthy explanation of why he and other officials are making big bucks in a poor city, he today is chosen for "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On."
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JERRY BROWN, ATTORNEY GENERAL, CALIFORNIA: And the question is, what were they thinking? What was the atmosphere in Bell that would allow this and make it plausible?
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SANCHEZ: Follow-up. That's Jerry Brown. He's the attorney general of California. He's talking about these controversial salaries of officials in the city of Bell.
I'm going to ask him about the uproar and whether the officials are getting these crazy payouts did anything criminal. Did they?
Jerry Brown joins us just ahead right here.
Also, there is even more you need to know about the leaked documents involving the war in Afghanistan. This is turning into a huge story, and we've got a lot more to report on this.
So stay right there. This is your "National Conversation".
I'm Rick Sanchez.
Be right back.
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SANCHEZ: I want to bring you up to date now on more on this WikiLeaks report that we've been combing through, the secret documents that have been posted on this Web site that have now been reported by "The New York Times," "The Guardian" and "Der Spiegel."
The American public was told that the robot drones -- this is the part we're going to talk about now, the predators and the drones -- they were told in many ways that they would revolutionize warfare. We were told stories of how a U.S. Air Force fighter pilot would sit safely in an Air Force base in Nevada. Meanwhile, on the other side of the world the pilot would be spying on attack positions and shooting Hellfire missiles at enemy fighters.
This tidy, efficient, and safe way was something the Obama administration seemed to have embraced. And according to "The New York Times," what I just described about efficient and tidy is not always the case. Not according to these new leaked documents coming out of Afghanistan.
Satellite links can be lost, we read, which causes pilots to struggle to regain control of the drones. In fact, the military in Afghanistan has lost many of the five-pound surveillance drones that they've put up.
And when one of the Air Force's premier armed drones, a Reaper, like the one that you're looking at right there -- see that one right there? When it went rogue, commanders had to order a jet to shoot down the $13 million aircraft.
The last thing you want is for that technology to fall into enemy hands. So that's when they scatter and do everything they can, even sending teams in there. As the civilian casualties increase, resentment among the Afghans also increases.
Now, according to some of these WikiLeaks documents, resentment isn't the only thing the U.S. has given the Afghans. The Afghans claim the Americans have brought a new concept with them -- corrupted government officials.
I want to read to you now from these reports. These are the notes taken by an American civil affairs officer in meetings with Afghan district officials. The officials were apparently brutally honest, according to the report.
"The people of Afghanistan keep losing their trust in the government because of the high amount of corrupted government officials. The general view of the Afghans is that the current government is worse than the Taliban."
Here is what the oldest member of the group told the civil affairs team. "The corrupted government officials are a new concept brought to Afghanistan by the Americans." That was according to the oldest member of the group, he told the civil affairs team.
In conclusion, the civil affairs officer who wrote the report warned, "The people will support the anti-coalition forces and the security conditions will degenerate."
So that's some of the reported information that is coming out of these WikiLeaks that we've been sharing with you.
When we come back, we're going to share with you what you're saying as well, because there's a whole lot of you that are tweeting on this subject.
Meanwhile, take a look at this.
Some of those city officials who earn those astronomical salaries out there in California, the voters are getting angrier and angrier with them. And when I come back I am going to be talking to California's attorney general, Jerry Brown.
Remember him? That's right, he's launched an investigation into this, and he's got a lot to tell us, a lot to share with us, as you get angrier still.
We'll be right back with your thoughts and his on RICK'S LIST.
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SANCHEZ: I want to bring to your attention now something that many Americans have been talking about. As a matter of fact, we've got some folks who just came into our studio here.
You guys all raise your hands over there. You guys paying attention to the immigration thing that's going on in Arizona, right?
Raise your hand, you know what's going on.
It seems like one story that almost all Americans are really keyed into. So it's a tough new Arizona immigration law. It goes into effect Thursday unless a federal judge grants an injunction the federal government is trying to get.
Utah is now also dealing with illegal immigration, a state that's taking aim at undocumented residents by outing them. That's right, outing them.
Here's Ted Rowlands with his list.
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TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the back room of a Salt Lake City market, Latino activist Tony Yapias has a hotline for people to call to find out if they are on "The List."
TONY YAPIAS, LATINO ACTIVIST: It has sent a chilling effect into our community.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's not on the list, OK? No.
ROWLANDS: The list surfaced two weeks ago. Two state employees who are now being terminated allegedly used medical data to come up with the personal information of 1,300 reported illegal immigrants. The list was sent to government agencies, law enforcement and the media with this letter demanding that the people on the list be deported immediately.
JESUS, ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT: I got here illegally. So -- but I didn't know I was doing a bad thing because I was young by then, but now I know that it's a bad thing.
ROWLANDS: We met 25-year-old Jesus at a park. He didn't want us to show his home or use his last name. Jesus is on the list. He says he's lived in Utah illegally since he was 15, when he says his father brought him here from Mexico.
He has a wife, who is also here illegally, and a 2-year-old daughter who was born in Utah.
JESUS: It's pretty sad and scary, because if somebody comes to your door and knocks, hey, let's go.
ROWLANDS: Jesus says the tension he feels living in Utah is growing, but the ongoing immigration debate and now the list.
ELI CAWLEY, UTAH MINUTEMAN PROJECT: To think there's fear in the hearts of these illegal aliens, I celebrate that.
ROWLANDS: Utah Minuteman Eli Cawley is pretty clear on where he stands.
CAWLEY: They swam here, they walked, they crawled here, by whatever way they got here, they can go back that way.
ROWLANDS: Cawley says people may call him a bigot but he believes a lot of Utah is on his side when it comes to illegal immigration.
In an April poll, 65 percent of Utah voters surveyed said they support an Arizona 1070 type law here. One is in the works and is expected to pass next year.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm tired of the lack of civility. I'm tired of the hatred. And I'm tired of the hostility. I think Utahans or the majority of Utahans are above that.
ROWLANDS: Last week Republican Governor Gary Herbert hosted a discussion on illegal immigration. While there were disagreements on what if anything the state should do about it, all sides were quick to blame the federal government for not doing something years ago.
GOV. GARY HERBERT (R), UTAH: But in the absence of federal action on this, there may be no other alternative but for states like Utah to move forward. ROWLANDS: As for the list, the attorney general announced a criminal investigation into the leak. Although Jesus admits he is in the country illegally, officials say some of the people on the list are here legally.
(on camera): Do you think you should be able to stay?
JESUS: Yes, I think I should have the chance to stay here.
ROWLANDS (on camera): You can see Jesus's name here on the list. What he is hoping is that the federal government will pass some sort of immigration reform that has a path to citizenship for he and his wife. He says if that doesn't happen, however, he does have plans to move back to Mexico, if forced.
Ted Rowlands, CNN, Salt Lake City, Utah.
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SANCHEZ: And, of course, that conversation is one that we're going to continue tonight at 8:00, as well as the conversation about WikiLeaks.
Have you heard about this? WikiLeaks is a Web site that takes stuff that's been, well, leaked. And some people are saying they don't want to know what's in there. Others are saying no, give it to us. We want the truth, even if it hurts, no matter what. We are Americans.
Well, let's take a look at a couple of the documents so far that we've been getting from people at home in the form of tweets.
"I think that WikiLeaks is incredibly important. Secrecy/non- transparency is an enemy of real democracy."
That's one. Here is another one.
"Of course WikiLeaks is good. Too many coward journalists don't report hard stories."
And finally, "The release of these documents is undermining the thousands of workers in the IC who work hard defending our national security."
So all kinds of opinions out there. We're going to hear what yours is as well, and we'll continue talking about this story.
We're also going to be on the controversy in Bell. And I'm going to ask some of the folks here in our audience -- I'm going to ask some of them what they think. Do they want to know or do they not want to know?
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
OK. Sorry about that.
I'm being told now that we have the attorney general of California standing -- oh, he made it!
Attorney General Jerry Brown is joining us now to bring us up to date on what's going on.
Attorney General, thanks so much for being with us, sir. Appreciate it.
Are you there, sir?
JERRY BROWN, CALIFORNIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: I'm here. I hear you.
SANCHEZ: Oh, good. Just want to make sure we could hear you.
This situation in Bell, California, a city manager making almost $800,000 in a city where there's 35,000 to 40,000 residents, a police chief making more than $400,000, $457,000 I believe. And then we get as well, an assistant city manager making upwards of $300,000.
Is there an illegality here, sir?
BROWN: Well, that's what I've issued subpoenas to find out. We're going after their records. We want the employment contracts within 48 hours.
But let me tell you something about the law of California. First of all, you have a duty as a public official to act as a fiduciary, using your utmost good faith and loyalty to the taxpayers, to that which you serve. And in this case, when you pay somebody $800,000, what's the basis?
In addition, the charter of the city of Bell says the salary is supposed to be commensurate with the duties. And this is more money than the president makes. It's more money than any city manager in America. So, yes, I think we've got some problems here.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you about a law that passed in 2005. It was a state law enacted that limits the pay of council members in general law cities.
Why doesn't that kick in, in this case?
BROWN: Because this group of people in Bell changed from a general law city to a charter city, which gives a great deal more latitude in their decision-making. And that's exactly what I'm probing into -- what was the basis? How come less than 400 people voted in the election? How come more than half the votes were absentee?
What were the discussions between the city administrators? And, by the way, the councilmen jacked up their salary almost 50 percent.
SANCHEZ: We're out of time. Hopefully you and I are going to get a chance to discuss this at length a little bit more. Wolf Blitzer is standing by now in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
Here's Suzanne Malveaux.
