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Rick's List
Carnage in Manchester
Aired August 04, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, HOST: Thanks, Pete.
Look, there is chilling new information tonight about the story we told you about, that massacre in Connecticut. But it's not just the new details about some of the suspects being hunted by this guy. No, we've also got the dramatic 911 call.
Here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Another RICK'S LIST special report: Carnage in Manchester. The 911 tapes released.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CALLER: He's running away right now. He is shooting somebody else. Yes, he is still shooting.
911 OPERATOR: Shooter is outside?
CALLER: He's shooting at a girl.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Police say the gunman hunted his co-workers and shot them dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge Vaughn Walker has made an indelible mark in history. He has taken on the United States Constitution and won.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Is same-sex marriage in California back on? A judge overturns the ban approved by Californians.
Why are these cops doing this to these women? And their babies? I'll tell you the story behind the roundup.
And Ozzie Guillen's tirade over Hispanic athletes. Is he wrong?
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Hello, again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez. So glad that so many of you are here with us once again. As we begin this newscast, I want to get you to California.
We've got some video that's coming in now that details what some of the reaction is out there and there has been a bevy of it.
Supporters of same-sex marriage are on the streets and they are celebrating tonight, over a ruling that has overruled the ban on such marriages. Proposition 8 apparently overturned. We're going to have full coverage on this, including a lively debate, as we go out to the streets as well, and we'll have representatives from both sides.
But we want to begin tonight where we left off last night. We have some chilling new developments in this story that I've been telling you about that took place last evening. Nine people dead in that workplace shooting in Connecticut, as you know.
Now, we've just gotten a hold of the emergency call that was placed to police. And I am about to play that for you.
Let me prepare you by setting it up for you. The man you're going to be listening to is Steve Hollander. Steve Hollander is a top executive with Hartford Distributors. As you're about to hear Hollander say, he had just fired an employee, Omar Thornton. This is one of the truck drivers we told you about last night -- the truck driver, I should say, who then went on this shooting spree, hunting down many of his own employees, as we learned today.
Thornton was being escorted off the premises when he went for two guns that he had stashed in the break room, apparently in his lunch pail. And he started shooting his way through the warehouse and then into the parking lot, possibly targeting his victims.
Now, here's Steve Hollander, who himself had just been shot apparently in the head -- as he picks up the phone, and he makes this call to the 911 emergency operator.
Let's go ahead, Cal.
Let's listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIOTAPE)
911 OPERATOR: Nine-one-one --
STEVEN HOLLANDER, HARTFORD DISTRIBUTORS: I need the cops here, Hartford Distributors, right away, shooting.
911 OPERATOR: What's going on? Who got shot?
HOLLANDER: Somebody got shot. I got shot.
911 OPERATOR: We need some information, sir.
HOLLANDER: We need the cops. Omar Thornton's shooting people. And I just got shot.
911 OPERATOR: OK, need to know what his name is --
HOLLANDER: His name is Omar Thornton. He's a black guy. Get the cops here right away, please.
911 OPERATOR: Sir, stay on the line --
HOLLANDER: He's all over this place.
911 OPERATOR: OK, how many people got shot?
HOLLANDER: I don't know.
911 OPERATOR: OK, you don't know. And you're shot where?
HOLLANDER: In my head.
911 OPERATOR: You're shot in the head?
HOLLANDER: Yeah.
911 OPERATOR: And what's your name?
HOLLANDER: My name is Steve Hollander.
911 OPERATOR: OK. What's name of the person shooting people again?
HOLLANDER: His name is Omar Thornton. He's a black guy. He's wearing shorts.
911 OPERATOR: OK, black male, short, anything else, with (ph) a gun?
HOLLANDER: I don't know, I didn't see it.
911 OPERATOR: You didn't see it. And where are you in the building, sir?
HOLLANDER: I'm hiding in an office.
911 OPERATOR: Hiding where?
HOLLANDER: In an office. People are running all over the place.
911 OPERATOR: OK, I understand. Keep talk to me, we can help you more, OK?
HOLLANDER: OK. All right, yes.
911 OPERATOR: You don't know if it was automatic weapon or not?
HOLLANDER: I -- he shot pretty fast.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And you're bleeding a lot? HOLLANDER: Yes, there's people running all over the place.
911 OPERATOR: OK, OK.
HOLLANDER: OK, I just see him running away right now. He's shooting at somebody else. Yes. He's still shooting.
911 OPERATOR: Shooter is outside?
HOLLANDER: He's shooting at a girl.
911 OPERATOR: OK. How many people are down, sir? Just (INAUDIBLE) say we're on the way.
HOLLANDER: He's got -- he's still running after people. He's not leaving.
911 OPERATOR: But do you see what kind of gun he has, sir?
HOLLANDER: It's a black gun, I don't know. He's carrying a -- he's wearing a blue shirt and blue shorts. He's got -- he's -- he's got a, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) he's still shooting. I hear guns out there.
911 OPERATOR: He used to work there?
HOLLANDER: Yes, until I just fired him.
911 OPERATOR: Today?
HOLLANDER: Today, just now, before he started shooting. He's chasing people out in the parking lot.
911 OPERATOR: He's in the parking lot chasing people.
HOLLANDER: With his gun, shooting at 'em. He's got a -- he's carrying a red lunch bag. He's right out in front of my office right now. I see him walking around.
911 OPERATOR: Active shooting -- a red bag?
HOLLANDER: He's got -- yes, he's got black shorts and a blue shirt. He's still walking around out in the parking lot.
(INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: All right, where is he now?
HOLLANDER: He may be coming back into the building.
911 OPERATOR: Where about?
HOLLANDER: The side door.
911 OPERATOR: Stay where you are, all right?
HOLLANDER: OK.
911 OPERATOR: Thank you.
(END AUDIOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: It is a chilling perspective on a carnage that occurred in Connecticut. But I want you to keep in mind, it's one set of eyes. There are other perspectives out there. As we take you through this story.
Before you do anything else, I want to bring in former New York are police officer Lou Palumbo, who is also an expert on workplace violence.
Just listening to that 911 tape, what's your reaction?
LOU PALUMBO, ELITE INTELLIGENCE & PROTECTION AGENCY: It's quite obvious the thing about 911 tapes is they're spontaneous and clearly unrehearsed. This person (AUDIO BREAK) expressing the urgency somewhat moment by moment of this incident, and the 911 operator was attempting to gather as much information as she possibly could to properly arm the police with information so they could respond.
SANCHEZ: He told her --
(CROSSTALK)
PALUMBO: -- disturbing to listen to.
SANCHEZ: He told them, by the way, "I just fired him." I mean, obviously, this -- in fact, let me back up a little bit, Lou. I want to share some more sound and then I want to get your reaction to this.
Thornton was being fired for allegedly stealing a product. The product in this case was beer or some kind of alcoholic beverage. This bloody chain of events began with a disciplinary hearing that took place early in the morning.
I want to take you folks through this now.
And, Lou, I want you to react to what this police officer says as he describes the chain of events leading up to the shooting when this man, like at 7:00 or 7:30 in the morning, was called in to apparently be fire and shown a videotape of him stealing.
Let's watch this together.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. CHRISTOPHER DAVIS, MANCHESTER POLICE: He arrived a little bit after 7:00, 7:00 in the morning, to this meeting. They sat down with him, his union representation and personnel from the company. They discussed the issue at hand. They offered him the chance to resign or be fired.
He met -- he stepped outside with his union representation for a brief moment, to determine what their next course was going to be. He came back in and tendered a one-line resignation letter.
Following that meeting, he walked back out where he told one of his -- one of the individuals there he needed to get a quick drink of water. He ducked into the kitchenette area where he was able to get his lunch pail and retrieve the weapons from inside that.
And so, right after that, the first victims were found, right in the hallway there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: You know, what's interesting about this is this killer was cool and collected -- almost as if he had a plan, Lou -- almost as if he knew exactly what he was going to do.
PALUMBO: I agree with that. I think when he came in that morning, he realized what the outcome of the meeting was going to be. And subsequent to the meeting, he had an agenda of harming as many people as he possibly could before he harmed himself.
You know, the interesting thing here, Rick, is that it's very common today for people who are in a position, and corporations, for example who have to discharge people of service, contract companies, such as mine, to go in and ensure everyone's safety. You know, loss of employment, especially in an economic climate that we're living in today, is a very sensitive issue.
SANCHEZ: So take me -- so take me -- I want to stop you there because I want to cut right to the chase. And I know where you're going, Lou.
Take us through what we know today, 24 hours since we first learned of this thing, what this company did wrong. Through that scenario, that police officer just explained to us.
PALUMBO: Well, to sum it up, what they should have done was contracted an -- a private security organization comprised of active and former law enforcement agents who they could have used in a support capacity to supervise him and basically prevent him from going into any backpack, lunch pail, anything.
In other words, Rick, the moment we would arrive on the scene and he would come into our visual, our sighting, we would not allow him to navigate that facility unsupervised -- certainly, would not allow him to, you know, reach into anything -- a backpack, a lunch pail, the refrigerator without us closely scrutinizing.
And to answer your question, Rick, they should have contracted an organization to further insulate the workers there, as well as themselves.
SANCHEZ: Yes, that's a good point. Further insulate the workers there, as well as themselves.
Lou, I want you to stick around. There's another part of the story we haven't told yet and it has to do with the actual word "hunting" -- where witnesses described that this man, with these two 9 millimeters, literally would pass up some worker because he wanted to get to other workers, chasing some of them around the building, chasing one of them outside the building where apparently he shot and killed them.
And I want to ask you about that and I'm also going to be doing another interview in just a moment. We just made contact with the mayor of Manchester. And he's going to be here live for us in two minutes. Right after the break, we're going to be talking to him. So, stand by for that.
Meanwhile, take a look at this as well, folks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've been together for 23 years. And we're one of the lucky couples that got married two years ago when all loving, committed couples could get married in California.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I pity the judge, I pity the country for the way it's going because once you step against God, there's nothing that can hold his wrath from you. And if Jesus says, woe to them that call evil good, then woe means woe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: You just heard there, two perspectives on this story. There is also major news, as you can see, on the west coast. The ruling some are calling historic.
Why? Well, it may lead to the way for same-sex couples to be able to get married anywhere in America.
Here's where they can get married already, by the way. I want to take you through this list. May 2004, Massachusetts becomes home to the very first legal same-sex marriage in U.S. history. October, 2008, the Connecticut Supreme Court rules that states must allow gay and lesbian couples to marry. April 2009, same-sex marriage becomes legal in Iowa, as a court ruling goes into effect there.
What are the other states? We've got that information. The answer is right after the break.
You're watching our national conversation now in primetime. RICK'S LIST -- coming right back at you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back to RICK'S LIST. I'm Rick Sanchez.
And, boy, what a busy night we have for you.
All right. The same sex marriage ban in California ruled unconstitutional today. We broke the story right here on RICK'S LIST earlier. Appeals are coming in now for a case that is a big deal nationwide. Take a look at some of the other states that have already approved this. 2009, Vermont became the fourth state to legalize same-sex marriages. But only after both the state Senate and the House of Representatives overturn a veto by Governor Jim Douglas.
This past January, New Hampshire joined the list. Some couples married just after midnight on the steps of the statehouse, moments after it became legal.
And it's not a state but certainly part of our Union -- Washington, D.C. began allowing same sex marriages in March.
All right. Here's what we got, the big debate on this is coming up in just a few minutes.
And then what are Ellen DeGeneres saying? What's Ricky Martin saying? What are they saying about this? We have their reaction and I'm going to share that with you in just a little bit.
Now, back to perhaps the most chilling part of this massacre that I've been telling you about -- is this notion that this killer didn't just start shooting at random. No, he targeted people. The word "hunted down" has been used by witnesses. As if he walked by people, looked at them, said "no, not you," and then chose to follow someone else, as if he had an agenda, a list in his head of the people he wanted to go after. It is chilling.
And I want you to listen now to how the lieutenant describes this. This is Chris Davis of the Manchester Police Department addressing this question of whether this shooting victims were actually targeted.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIS: No evidence that -- other than the identity of the people that were shot, that he was targeted anybody. But, at this point, we don't know specifically. He didn't have a master list that we found right here and saying that these are the people he was going after. But based upon some of the people that were victims, it's probably likely that he was targeting some individuals. He passed by other individuals and did not -- did not shoot them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Passed by some individuals and didn't shoot them, but was targeting certain individuals. That's what he said there at the end. It took him a while to get to that point. But we also have witness accounts that seemed to corroborate what the police officer said.
Joining me now is the mayor of Manchester, Lou Spadaccini. He's good enough to join us. And he's just come out of a memorial service in honor of some of these victims.
So, Mr. Mayor, before we do anything, please allow me to offer our condolences here, from all of us at CNN, as we've been watching this horrible story develop. And we're sharing with our viewers now some of pictures of the memorials that are taking place.
Sir, any word on behalf of your community for these families?
MAYOR LOU SPADACCINI, MANCHESTER, CONNECTICUT: Well, our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families. These individuals were just going to work and their lives were suddenly cut short. And what I can say is that, for the families of these victims, please know that the prayers and the support of an entire community are with you through this.
SANCHEZ: Are you bothered, sir, by the different versions of events and stories that have been reported? Apparently, there are people who were close to this killer who said that before he died, he was complaining about being perhaps racially harassed, that people were using the "N" word around him, that he'd seen a noose in a bathroom.
We've heard people say that, and we've been unable to confirm at this point that, in fact, that is the reason that this happened or anything like that. But the story's out there. And it's about your community.
What is your reaction to that?
SPADACCINI: Well, all I can say is all the evidence that has been brought to my attention and I've seen, doesn't support that. And I'm not going to speculate as to what this individual was thinking when he committed this horrible act.
SANCHEZ: Of course not.
Have you spoken to the police department at this point? And are they pretty sure that this man wanted to do what he did, that, in fact, it was premeditated, that he planned it?
SPADACCINI: Well, I think the fact that he brought firearms to the workplace, he obviously planned something. And I have been in contact regularly with our police department. Yes.
SANCHEZ: What are you learning from them?
SPADACCINI: I'm learning -- well, the investigation continues. Yesterday was the most important thing at the beginning, securing the site, making sure there was no more immediate threat. Thereupon, our next priority was to gather the co-workers and the families of the victims and move them to a secure location where they could be reunited with family and also get information. We did that all day yesterday.
And as you earlier said, the investigation about all the facts and circumstances continues.
SANCHEZ: It seems pretty evident from what police are saying now, and I'll bring Lou Palumbo back into this discussion as well to see what his reaction is, that this man not only wanted to go out shooting people, but it seemed like he had certain people in mind because we have witnesses and police officers saying that he did, in fact, target certain people.
What does this tell you? Mr. Mayor, I'll begin with you.
SPADACCINI: Well, I don't -- again, I can't speculate as to what this individual was thinking when he did these horrible acts. And, you know, these individuals who were victims of this horrible attack, they were good people, just going to work that day --
SANCHEZ: Yes, yes, they certainly were, sir --
SPADACCINI: I couldn't tell you whether they were targeted or not.
SANCHEZ: Lou Palumbo, the reports seem to indicate that, in fact, he would go by some people and leave them alone, but, in fact, chased one man out of the building and shot him in the parking lot area. What does that tell you?
PALUMBO: Well, Rick, you know, I -- I believe that he obviously had somewhat adversarial relationships with a number of people who were co-workers. You know, it would be difficult for me to believe that the management, or on some level, supervision, was unaware of that. All this lends itself back to dismissing him without having supervision there with them to support them.
But it's quite obvious, he knew who he wanted to shoot -- as they indicated, based on the witnesses. He passed certain people, chose or elected to shoot other people. And, you know, he knew what he was doing. He knew that when he walked in that morning. He had an agenda.
SANCHEZ: Well, I'll tell you, our condolences continue to go out. So, I'm glad we had a chance to talk to the mayor of Manchester. He's been at these memorials that they're having there tonight.
Once again, Mr. Mayor, thanks so much for coming and joining us on such a difficult night. Our condolences to you, to the people in your town, to the survivors, and we'll be in contact with you to see if there's anything you can do, moving forward, as the story continues to develop.
Lou Palumbo, my thanks to you as well.
Now, take a look at this. I want to show you live pictures from the Castro District in San Francisco, where residents are celebrating the judges verdict there overturning a ban on gay marriage. There's reaction in Los Angeles as well.
And Ellen DeGeneres has been reacting throughout the day. We've been following some of her tweets to the judge's decision.
And guess what else is trending tonight? That people are talking about? Rudy Giuliani's daughter -- Rudy Giuliani's daughter. Uh-oh! Brooke Baldwin is going to tell us what's going on with her.
Also, why are these police officers being allowed to rough up these women with their babies? I got the answers behind this troubling video.
RICK'S LIST is coming right back at you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Hey, welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
The video that you're about to see you may find troubling. It bothered some of us as we watched it together, my staff. But we think that it's important and that this next story should be told.
Let me begin by giving you the scene. This is Paris, France. Just watch.
(VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: It is especially troubling, isn't it? Especially when you watch the children, babies.
Watch that one. Look at the child. Look at the child. Look at the child on her back. Now, watch what happens.
Yes. It's tough. Riot police dragging women, some of them described as pregnant or holding their babies. This went down outside an apartment complex. Police say some of these women were illegal immigrants from the Ivory Coast. And they had been living in the street since being evicted to make way for a new housing project.
Police say they had to act.
But take a look at this mom once again, the one I showed you moments ago. I mean, she's dragged into the street with a child still tied to her back.
The pictures are powerful, folks. And this one needs some back story. And we've done some digging. We had the story since yesterday but we wanted to make sure we got the facts.
The scene reportedly began with protesters kicking and beating the police officers who did, in fact, retaliate. As for that child that you saw right there, police say they couldn't see him, as they pulled the woman, they didn't know the child was behind her, didn't know he was there, and the child we understand is now recovering.
Most importantly, the video was filmed by one of the NGOs supporting these asylum seekers. It's now received tens of thousands of viewers on the Internet. The police commissioner defended the actions of the police, said the intent was simply to relocate the women to temporary housing. And there you have it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not gay marriage anymore, straight marriage. It's just marriage.
(END VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ: All right. Tonight, we are seeing some happy folks taking to streets in San Francisco after a judge rules against California's ban on gay marriage.
But the question now is: what is next? Is this going to the Supreme Court? Oh, and I think you might be able to bet on that one. That's coming up in just a little bit.
Also, there's a new poll that says astounding numbers of Americans believe that Barack Obama is an illegitimate president. Oh, and did I tell you it's his birthday? Happy Birthday, Mr. President.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD (singing): Happy Birthday to you.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Well, you've got some interesting stuff. First of all, a lot of very famous people are tweeting and reacting to what's going on in California.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is amazing.
SANCHEZ: And by the way, are you reporting on the Rudy Giuliani daughter?
BALDWIN: I am.
SANCHEZ: That seems very curious.
BALDWIN: Coming up, coming up.
SANCHEZ: OK.
BALDWIN: Stand by.
SANCHEZ: How about it? How about it?
BALDWIN: If we can, do we have Twitter board ready potentially? Maybe, maybe not yet. I see we're clicking. Let's take a look at Governor Schwarzenegger's tweet. Here we go.
He's tweeting, "This decision affirms the full legal protections and safeguards I believe everyone deserves." One for Ellen DeGeneres in "Ellen." This just in, "Equality won." Remember, she married Portia de Rossi in '08, before Prop 8 was instituted. And one more from Ricky Martin who came out just this past March. He said, "Yes, Prop 8 unconstitutional. Moving forward." So lots and lots of lots --
SANCHEZ: Is that a yeah or a yes?
BALDWIN: It's a yes.
SANCHEZ: OK.
BALDWIN: I think. Number two, you mentioned Rudy Giuliani's daughter.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
BALDWIN: I tell you --
SANCHEZ: I feel bad for the situation. What's going on there?
BALDWIN: OK. The family of the former mayor, yes, they're kind of used to the media spotlight but not exactly this kind of spotlight. We just got this video in so let's roll the video.
This is the daughter -- this is his daughter with his second wife, walking out. There she is sunglasses on her head, walking out of a Manhattan police precinct tonight after being arrested for, wait for it -- shoplifting. Caroline Giuliani, we're hearing she's a student at Harvard, picked up -- she was at a Sephora store. It's a beauty store in the upper eastside of Manhattan. She had some makeup apparently, did not pay for it. CNN has confirmed she's been charged with one count of petty larceny.
So that, unless we can deduce, she's taking 500 bucks or less worth of makeup. We don't know the specifics, but she's also been issued a desk appearance ticket. No comments from Giuliani's office or the store but --
SANCHEZ: These are accusations and accusations only to be fair to her.
BALDWIN: Absolutely. Absolutely.
And final note, you stole my line, happy birthday, Mr. President. It's the president's 49th birthday. In fact, we've just heard from the White House folks traveling with him that he is en route right now to dinner in Chicago. That's where he's spending his 49th birthday, home alone.
Well, alone, he did bring Bo the dog, so it's just the two of them, I guess. His wife and daughter Sasha are vacationing in Spain but did call in to tell him happy birthday. And Malia, she's at camp, she gets one phone call a day. We're told she called her dad to wish him happy birthday.
The president did get a birthday song from the crowd at the Citizens Medal event this morning. We can listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALL: Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, Mr. President. Happy birthday to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: So he got sung to, very nice. And if you want to wish the president happy birthday, there is an electronic card, this virtual card out there that you can sign. And there is also, of course, you know, the Republicans having a little fun with his birthday as well. They've created this Web site for people to send cards to the president and mock him at the same time.
In fact, spin around and we can take a look. This is Barack's birthday card. You can picture it. You can pick one of the faces. We chose one. And the one we chose says, "'The View' went so well, we thought we'd line up some more hard-hitting interviews. How does Oprah sound?" That's Robert Gibbs on the cover of that card. Right, it's kind of fun to have a little fun. It's probably though not the birthday President Obama hoped for. Have you seen this new CNN/Opinion Research poll. It's saying 27 percent of Americans still doubt the president was born in the U.S. These numbers, despite all the evidence that we know he was born here.
SANCHEZ: That's just crazy.
BALDWIN: Crazy talk.
SANCHEZ: And wrong and unintelligent, for what it's worth.
BALDWIN: Can we talk about -- do you want to talk about this now or later?
SANCHEZ: No, I'm going to bring that up a little bit later.
BALDWIN: OK.
SANCHEZ: You want to show it?
BALDWIN: Wait. Are you excited?
SANCHEZ: I'm proud.
BALDWIN: You must be, like this is like --
SANCHEZ: I'm proud.
BALDWIN: You had babies and now this is the other proud day of your life.
SANCHEZ: The babies are more important. The babies are more important. Yes, you got me --
BALDWIN: The babies and the book. Congratulations.
SANCHEZ: All right. Listen up, we'll look forward to seeing you again. Appreciate it.
BALDWIN: Tomorrow.
SANCHEZ: Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TED OLSON, FORMER LAWYER OF GEORGE W. BUSH: We felt from the beginning that it was unfortunate that every American could not have seen this trial. Seen the experts talk about the value of marriage, the history of discrimination, the value of equality.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right. That's one of George Bush's former lawyers, Ted Olson. You probably recognized him, hair's a little longer, praising the judge's ruling today that supports same sex marriage in California. But just wait because what happens in this case could affect all 50 states. Both sides make their case right here.
This is the great debate. It's next. Stay with us. You're watching RICK'S LIST. This is our national conversation. And we're going to be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back to RICK'S LIST. I'm Rick Sanchez. The big news in California, a story with national implications. A federal judge has ruled against Proposition 8, which bans same-sex marriage, which means the ban is gone. Lifted. Right?
It's a milestone, in what's really been a six-year battle. It started when San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, you remember, ordered the issuing of marriage licenses for same-sex couples. It was on the news every day it seemed.
Well, today's ruling doesn't end anything. There will be an appeal. And the judge issued a stay on his own, ordered today. So it won't take effect immediately. But it's set the table.
This case has Supreme Court written all over it. Tony Perkins. You know Tony Perkins. He heads the Family Research Council and he supports Proposition 8. Mr. Perkins, thanks so much for being with us, sir.
Evan Wolfson. He runs the group Freedom to Marry. He opposes this ban. Mr. Perkins, I'm going to begin with you. Tell me why this judge, why Vaughn Walker, is wrong in this decision that he's made tonight.
TONY PERKINS, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Well, this is not the first time that a district level court has overturned a marriage amendment. And I think you're right, Rick, in pointing out that this has national implications. It's not just the California marriage amendment. The California courts heard it, upheld it, felt that the people acted in the right way and the right manner. And this, now, is a challenge of the marriage amendment, under the federal constitution, and so if this were to stay in effect, go all the way to the Supreme Court, may find that this case has merit, it would overturn marriage statutes, almost 45 states --
SANCHEZ: But Mr. Perkins, back to my question. Why is the judge wrong? What's wrong with the judge saying? The judge -- look, I'll read it to you and then you can disagree with it, OK? Here we go.
Mark, if you're around. Proposition 8 prevents California from fulfilling its constitutional obligation to provide marriages on an equal basis. He's saying the state of California needs to recognize that all breathing human beings are equal and you can't separate one from the other by sexual preferences. That's what the judge is saying. You argue how.
PERKINS: Right. Well, he made this ruling based on the 14th amendment, due process and equal protection.
SANCHEZ: Right.
PERKINS: A very similar decision was made back in 2006 by a district level court over Nebraska's marriage amendment, which was overturned three to zero by the 8th Circuit. Because the same rationale was used, that there was no rational basis for the state to uphold traditional marriage --
SANCHEZ: Yes.
PERKINS: -- marriage between a man and a woman, and that was, as I said, overturned by the 8th Circuit --
SANCHEZ: You still haven't answered my cotton-picking -- you still haven't answered my cotton-picking question. Why is he wrong --
PERKINS: I did answer your question.
SANCHEZ: Why is he wrong to say -- all right, let me bring our other guest in --
PERKINS: Just as the 8th Circuit found, there is a rational basis for the state to uphold traditional marriage.
SANCHEZ: OK.
PERKINS: And that's what they found in the 8th Circuit. And I'm certain that when this goes -- not at the 9th Circuit but all the way to the Supreme Court, that it has a very good chance of being found in the same manner that there is a rational basis for states to define marriage.
SANCHEZ: OK. All right.
OK, I apologize for -- I apologize for getting frustrated. I wasn't hearing that then. You're defining it in terms of what the law says.
Evan Wolfson, here, sir, do you agree with him? This is just one judge. That's the ruling he made, but there's other judges out there who are going to say, no, sorry, traditional marriage is what rules in this country.
EVAN WOLFSON, "FREEDOM TO MARRY": Well, it's certainly true that this is one judge and that this is the first ruling in a case that will have to go forward and will be appealed. But I think the question you asked is what led Judge Walker to the ruling that he put forward which any American can read now online. He asked the question, he asked their top lawyer what harm would there be if gay couples are allowed to share in the love and commitment of marriage, the same love and commitment they have in their personal lives? And their top lawyer said "I don't know." And as the trial went forward, the evidence was put forward. The witnesses were there. And Judge Walker reviews them all. And what came out of the trial was, there's not a single good reason for denying the freedom to marry to these committed couples.
SANCHEZ: The evidence shows conclusively -- Mark, back over here, please -- the evidence shows, here, I have it right here in front of me, by the way, and I'll share it with you guys. The evidence shows conclusively that Preposition 8 enacts without reason a private moral view that same-sex couples are inferior to opposite sex couples and this is born of animosity toward the class of persons affected.
So it does seem like the judge is saying that, Mr. Perkins.
PERKINS: Well, the judge is free to say whatever he wants. It doesn't make it true.
SANCHEZ: But this is --
PERKINS: And as other judges have found out --
SANCHEZ: But here's the difference, sir. And here's where I think your argument is a little slim. This is the first time --
PERKINS: OK.
SANCHEZ: -- that we looked at a case -- no, I mean, I'm just looking at it from a legal standpoint. This the first time that a case like this has had national implications because other cases have been made --
PERKINS: No, no, it's not --
SANCHEZ: -- at the regional level. Well, I talked to constitutional lawyers today who say this case is different because this case has national implications and it's headed right for the Supreme Court. Many of the other regional --
PERKINS: The same thing was true -- Rick, the same thing was true in the Nebraska case. The difference was Ted Olson shopped this, knowing this was a perfect setup, to do it in California in this district, with a favorable court. Then the appeal would go to the 9th Circuit, which is the most overturned appellate court in the nation, and would be a straight path to the Supreme Court. So there's no question about the venue. The arguments were made for that venue. But it's not the first time this has happened.
SANCHEZ: Evan Wolfson -- WOLFSON: Yes. But, you know, Mr. Perkins -- Mr. Perkins, again, has just not given us a reason. The same lack of reason that they showed in court is what we're hearing here tonight. Why shouldn't committed couples who've made a commitment in their life, who are doing the work of marriage, who are building a life together, who are worrying about their aging parents, who are raising children, who are paying taxes, who had made that statement.
SANCHEZ: OK. Let's give -- well, let's give him one more attempt. Let's give one more attempt.
I got it. We got the question, Evan.
Mr. Perkins, one more attempt. Why shouldn't --
PERKINS: Because the overwhelming evidence --
SANCHEZ: Yes.
PERKINS: The overwhelming evidence, social science, shows that children do best with a mother and a father. Not two adults. Not three adults. Not four adults. A mother and a father.
SANCHEZ: OK.
PERKINS: The reason --
(CROSSTALK)
WOLFSON: OK, but, see, Mr. -- Mr. Perkins --
PERKINS: -- that the government (INAUDIBLE) this marriage is because marriage benefits society. It's not because it's some kind of, you know, arbitrary extension of benefits to discriminate against a particular class --
SANCHEZ: Mr. Wolfson, you've got --
(CROSSTALK)
WOLFSON: Well, actually --
SANCHEZ: You've got 20 seconds to answer that, Mr. Wolfson, then we've got to move on.
WOLFSON: Sure, thank you.
SANCHEZ: Go.
WOLFSON: Yes, Mr. Perkins' side made that same argument in court and they were unable to produce a single witness, a scrap of evidence to make it true. And the fact of the matter is, the kids who are being raised by gay parents are harmed when their parents are denied marriage.
SANCHEZ: All right. One more, one more, one more. WOLFSON: The freedom to marry is something we all can share.
SANCHEZ: One more closing thing. Mark, come back to me. Here we go. This is what the judge had to say about that, now that we've listened to both of you.
Proposition 8 singles out gays and lesbians as legitimize and legitimates their unequal treatment. Proposition 8 perpetuates the stereotype that gays and lesbians are incapable of forming long-term, loving relationships, and that gays and lesbians are not good parents. So that's what the court said. We'll leave it at that. It will be challenged. And we appreciate --
PERKINS: That's what one judge said.
SANCHEZ: You're right, sir. We appreciate what both of you gentlemen have brought today to the table. Mr. Perkins, thanks so much for being with us. Mr. Wolfson, same as --
WOLFSON: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Same to you.
OK, take a look at this. This is a live video of what BP calls the static kill. So on day 107, how we doing? Is the leak plugged for good? We've got the latest on that. Guess what? It's good news.
Next, did you hear what the White Sox coach said about Hispanic players? Now, if you think I'm defending him because I happen to be Hispanic, you know, just Spanish also happens to be my first language, think again. He's on my list. I'm coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back to RICK'S LIST. I'm Rick Sanchez. Ingles es mi segundo idioma. What I just said in Spanish is that English is my second language.
When I came to this country, I was scared and I was so confused because I had no idea what people were saying around me. I didn't speak English. I only spoke Spanish. But after failing a lot, I learned to speak English the way I do now. At least well enough to get this gig.
Heck, I've even written a book of late. You know? And, look, it's in English. The point is, that because of my experience, I am bothered to hear a major league manager, I'll be honest with you, saying that well-paid professional athletes are mistreated because they don't have private translators when they arrive in America.
Are you kidding me? Here, now, the "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On."
Who said that? Ozzie Guillen said that, of the Chicago White Sox. He's known for tirades. And here's the latest one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OZZIE GUILLEN, CHICAGO WHITE HOUSE MANAGER: I said, why we have Japanese interpreter and we don't have a Spanish one? I always say that. Why they have privilege and we don't? They take advantage of that. OK, we bring a Japanese player, they're very good. They bring all the privileges to them. We bring a Dominican kid, (Expletive Deleted) you, you're going to the minor leagues and good luck.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: He says he was taken out of context but we listened to the whole thing. I don't know how. And by the way, his own team now says that they don't agree with his point of view. And Major League Baseball is also defending itself against Ozzie's tirade. Here's why Ozzie should reconsider what he says about Asians and Hispanic ball players.
Asians, first of all, are a bit of a rarity in baseball, both in language and in culture. They make up less than two percent of all baseball players. Hispanics, they make up, like, more than 30 percent of baseball players. That means that nearly every single team has Latino players. And they're not going to have a problem finding someone to communicate with, including coaches who talk to them and coach them in Spanish. So while a Japanese player may not have anybody who understands him, Latinos will. Just about anywhere they look, in fact.
Guillen says his comments are his own and that he doesn't feel guilty or owe anyone an apology. He doesn't have to apologize.
I actually give him credit for starting a conversation. But is he serious? Especially when the guys that he's talking about actually have jobs, dream jobs. Some of them signing million dollar bonuses. And he wants us to feel sorry for them because they don't want to learn English on their own dime and their own time?
I'm not saying you have to learn English when you come to this country. Nobody can make anybody do anything in a free country. I'm saying you should learn. Immerse yourself. Make the sacrifice. Work a little harder. Be willing to fail whatever it takes. Look, it worked for me. And I'm not even a major leaguer.
Ozzie Guillen, you're a hell of a great coach but from one Hispanic to another, you may be wrong on this one. And you're also now on "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On."
What is it that you get when you mix a donkey and parasailing? Believe me, this is a picture you've just got to see. It is coming up in "Fotos."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. Welcome back. Here we go. I'm Rick Sanchez.
You know, I did play a little college football before deciding to become a journalist at the University of Minnesota. And while I think I make a better news anchor than a linebacker these days, I don't mind saying that I can still throw a pretty mean tackle, especially when I'm tackling my 9-year-old daughter Savannah (ph). Apparently, so can these next guys. Time for "Fotos."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ah, dios mio.
SANCHEZ: Another early morning at the local pharmacy in Pensacola, Florida, until an armed robber tries to make a downfield run with a bag of prescription drugs. He might have gotten away with it, too, if not for this textbook takedown by two of the store's employees. Somebody give those kids a scholarship.
And that's no lava lamp, you're seeing there. We told you yesterday about an explosion scientists observed on the surface of the sun. Check this out.
We all saw that solar activity that resulted in some wild light shows across the northern hemisphere. Now, these are time lapsed iReports of the northern lights. It's from a guy in Denmark who was watching RICK'S LIST and sent it to us. An amazing solar effect and one you don't usually see so far south. Keep your eye on the skies, folks, and if you see something, do me a favor, send it to us.
Now, take a look at this. Speaking of eyes in the sky, remember this parasailing donkey that flew over a beach in Russia as part of a PR campaign? Tons of you saw it. Tons of you reacted. We've been getting your tweets since.
A lot of animal rights groups were furious about this. But good news, the flying burro has finally found a home. At the readers' suggestion, the British newspaper, "The Sun," bought the donkey after the Internet video of 17-year-old donkey Anapka (ph) went viral. Thanks to the tabloid, Anapka (ph) will now be retiring to a new animal sanctuary in Hampshire in the U.K. So a tabloid newspaper buys an ass.
You decide if that is appropriate. That's "Fotos." You can see them all, by the way, on my blog. It's "Fotos Del Dia" on CNN.com/ricksanchez.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ah, dios mio.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: The leak is sealed. That's the good news from the gulf. Here's the rest of it.
According to a government report, 74 percent of the oil is gone. The remaining 26 percent is either degrading or being cleaned up on shore. That's it for us. We'll see you tomorrow.
Here now, "LARRY KING LIVE."
