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Blagojevich Verdict Delivered; Mother of Connecticut Shooter Speaks Out

Aired August 17, 2010 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, everybody, for being with us tonight.

Do you remember Omar Thornton? This is the fellow who killed his co-workers in Manchester, Connecticut. Interestingly enough, the last person we called after he made his charges of racism was his mother. She hasn't spoken to anyone until tonight on RICK'S LIST.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ (voice-over): Here's what's making the LIST in prime- time.

The first interview with the woman whose son killed eight co- workers.

LILLIE HOLLIDAY, MOTHER OF OMAR THORNTON: I would like to give my sympathy to all the families that are involved. They are hurting, and so am I.

SANCHEZ: He started killing moments after being fired, but blamed it on racism.

Omar Thornton, Gunman: I'm not going to kill nobody else, though.

SANCHEZ: Then, Omar Thornton took his own life, but he called his mother first.

HOLLIDAY: What got me, he said, "I love you."

SANCHEZ: Soledad O'Brien with the CNN exclusive.

New info on the mom who confessed to this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The manner in this case would be homicide. The older one did have a few defense wounds.

SANCHEZ: What would drive a woman to turn on her own babies?

DAVID HOLLANDER, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH FLORIDA: We're adding to the puzzle.

SANCHEZ: Where is the spilled oil in the Gulf? A special report indicating these experts have found it. And why are so many young black men dropping out of school? Dr. Steve Perry on this LIST, he weighs in with stats and solutions.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Hi, everybody. I am Rick Sanchez. We do have a lot of interesting stories coming your way tonight.

But we are going to begin with breaking news, the trial of former Illinois governor, Rod Blagojevich, the man accused of trying to sell President Barack Obama's Senate seat, finally comes to a conclusion, sort of. It's more of a vindication than a prosecution, really.

He was charged with 24 counts. You know how many he has been found guilty of? One. And don't think for one minute that he doesn't want you to know that. Here is the moment you may have missed. This is Blagojevich essentially crowing big.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROD BLAGOJEVICH (D), FORMER ILLINOIS GOVERNOR: From the very beginning, when this all happened, I told them that I did not let them down. I didn't break any laws. I didn't do anything wrong.

The government, the federal government and this particular prosecutor did everything he could to target me and prosecute me, persecute me, put pressure on my family, try to take our home, take me away from our kids, arrest me, in the early morning hours on December the 9, with Patti and me in our bedroom and our little Annie in bed with us, a sitting governor, and that very prosecutor said he was stopping a crime spree before it happened.

Well, this jury just showed you, notwithstanding the fact that this government and the power and the resources that they bring to bear, this jury just showed you that notwithstanding the fact that the government threw everything but the kitchen sink at me, that on every count except for one, and every charge except for one, they could not prove that I did anything wrong, that I did break any laws, except for one nebulous charge from five years ago, a conversation that I had with the FBI, where the FBI -- and I agreed to that interview -- refused to allow me to have a court reporter in the room.

I want the people of Illinois to know, I did not lie to the FBI. I have told the truth from the very beginning. This is a persecution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: He is right, the only charge that stuck, the only one, making a false statement to authorities.

Before the jump, I want to take you back now to 2008. The nation had just elected, you remember, its first African-American president, a young senator from Illinois, and the man in charge of choosing Mr. Obama's replacement, then Governor Rod Blagojevich. In fact, do you remember this?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

BLAGOJEVICH: This thing is (EXPLETIVE DELETED) golden. And I'm just not giving it up for (EXPLETIVE DELETED) nothing.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Governor Rod Blagojevich and his chief of staff, John Harris, were arrested for what the man heading the investigation, U.S. attorney Patrick Fitzgerald, at the time did call political corruption crime spree. Crime spree is what he called it.

Was it a crime spree? The jury is apparently saying tonight, no, it was not a crime spree.

Jeff Toobin, CNN senior legal analyst, he is joining me, along with Andy Shaw. Andy is executive director of the Better Government Association.

Andy, I'm going to begin with you because you were there. You were there in the courtroom as the decision came down. Describe the scene for us if you would.

ANDY SHAW, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, BETTER GOVERNMENT ASSOCIATION: Well, for one of the first times, the ex-governor, who is generally very jovial, outgoing and a showman through and through, looked extremely nervous and extremely grave, his wife, Patti, equally concerned.

And after the verdict was read there was no sense of joy on their faces. Mr. Blagojevich was found guilty of a felony that could put him in jail. Now, in the broader sense, of course, a hung jury on 23 counts means a level of vindication. But, look, they have got to go through this all again. And the feds historically do better with these cases the second time.

They had a very conservative prosecution. There were witnesses they could have called that they chose not to because they didn't want to take a chance. It is a complicated case. He talked about selling a Senate seat, but never did it. He asked for a lot of things, but never got anything. And I think at the end of the day, the jury wanted a little more of a smoking gun, a little more of a completed act, and the case didn't have one.

(CROSSTALK)

He could have been found guilty just for intent. But the jury didn't do that.

SANCHEZ: Hey, Jeff, let me bring you into this. A lot of the folks who are watching tonight would say, OK, you tried him and you lost 23-1. You are going to try him again? Really?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, these are very serious charges. The government feels that this guy, this former governor, Blagojevich, was an extortionist, was a racketeer, was a conspirator. These are the kind of charges we usually bring against Mafia figures.

So, the government immediately said upon this hung jury -- and, remember, it was 23 hung juries, not 23 acquittals. If it was an acquittal, the government wouldn't have the option of trying him again. But they do have the option of trying him again. And, at least today, the government has said we're going back to get him again.

SANCHEZ: Well, Andy, let me bring you back into this because we talk about politics and situations like this. And the American people read about this kind of stuff all the time. So let me ask you this question quite directly. Is this jury saying tonight that this politician really didn't do anything that many other politicians do routinely?

SHAW: Well, that's what Rod Blagojevich and his attorney would have you believe by their bombastic statements after the verdict.

But Jeff is exactly right. Hung juries just mean that 12 people didn't agree on guilt. We never heard what the counts were. The jury -- the jury left without speaking today. It could have been 10-2 to convict on all the counts. We don't know.

And I will tell you something. This man perverted and subverted Illinois government. There is no question about that.

SANCHEZ: Right.

SHAW: He turned Illinois into an ATM for his own campaign fund. Look, maybe it didn't meet the burden of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt on very complicated charges in a difficult case, but there is not a person in the state of Illinois that doesn't believe that this man disgraced his office, humiliated us.

And I think that most people may want to see him just go away, but of course Patrick Fitzgerald has to do what he thinks is right. And I think they will be bring better guns the second time around. The defense may be better too. But I think they have got a better chance because I think they know what they did wrong.

SANCHEZ: My thanks to both of you tonight for bringing us that perspective.

By the way, we just got a tweet in now about this from "The Chicago Trib." Those who have spent time in Chicago know it is one of the most important institutions there. Let's go to it if we possibly can.

It says, "Politicians say verdict doesn't mean Blagojevich should have remained in office." Interesting. We will continue to follow the tweets for you as we follow tonight on RICK'S LIST.

So, that mother in South Carolina, she didn't drown her kids after all. Remember we told you about this story on RICK'S LIST yesterday? No, police are saying she did not drown them. She killed them first at a motel. That's what police are saying. There's new details in this heartbreaking case and we're going to share those with you.

Also, next, Omar Thornton was fired from his beer truck driving job. So, he shot eight people. He says they were racists, his first call, to his mother. Tonight she sits down for an interview with my colleague Soledad O'Brien. This is a RICK'S LIST exclusive. Stay right there. We will bring it to you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Hey, welcome back, everyone. I'm Rick Sanchez. I want you to hang tight, if we can. We are going to have to shuffle some stories around for you a little bit, because the interview that Soledad is going to be bringing us, this exclusive interview with the mother who speaks for the first time about her son, who said it was racism that drove him to kill all of his colleagues there in Manchester, Connecticut, that's coming up in just a little bit. But we are waiting to get some of the tapes in. So, once again, hang tight.

Meanwhile, it's time for our roundup list, which we bring you every night around this time. Let me take you through these.

First, a terrorist wearing a vest filled with explosives kills 48 people and wounds more than 100 more when he blows himself up at a recruiting center in Baghdad. Hundreds of men were waiting in line to sign up for the Iraqi army at the end of a weeklong recruitment drive.

The mayor of Denver, Colorado, has asked the FBI to review this videotape. Remember I took you through this last night? Twenty-four- year-old Michael DeHerrera, he is struck and thrown to the ground by an officer outside of a nightclub. Happened in April 2009. The officers were disciplined for lying about this. Officials say they just filed a false police report, claiming it was the young man who hit them, instead of them hitting the young man. An independent monitor is now calling for them to be fired, not suspended, but fired, saying they did try to cover it up.

Singer Erykah Badu will pay a $500 fine and serve six months probation to settle a disorderly conduct charge in Dallas. The charge was filed you might recall after the -- after she shot this music video which shows her walking through downtown Dallas, stripping naked, and lying down in Dealey Plaza, where President John F. Kennedy was assassinated. After Badu completes her probation, the criminal offense, we understand, will be dropped.

Here's what's coming up next: The mother whose son called his mom as he murdered his co-workers is coming up. That's a RICK'S LIST exclusive, by the way.

And then Brooke Baldwin joins me with her list of what is trending on this night. A judge orders a computer visitation for a dad in a custody case. A what? Skype? A computer visitation, this is a first. It is a brave new world, folks, and this is RICK'S LIST. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: So, this is what is trending more than more than just about anything. It's one of those times where a sports story moves to the forefront and becomes a news story.

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Which makes Rick Sanchez very happy.

SANCHEZ: I think this Brett Favre story is fascinating.

BALDWIN: I know. People are a'tweeting.

SANCHEZ: And, by the way, we still don't know. He could be calling a news conference to say one more time, I'm retiring and this time it is for real.

BALDWIN: Right.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Or?

BALDWIN: Or perhaps not. We are all sitting with bated breath, some of us perhaps more than others, wondering about the fate of Brett Favre. We thought we would know tonight. We thought that there would be some kind of press conference.

I have in my hand a media advisory for tomorrow, the press conference happening tomorrow, Eden Prairie, Minnesota. All signs, though, thus far pointing to yes he will return. In fact, Brett Favre's Web site says -- take a look -- "We are awaiting a statement soon from the Vikings. As soon as this is available, we will pass it along."

Take a look at this video. We have some new video, aerial shots here -- people were going all out for this, this afternoon -- of Favre returning to Vikings' training camp in Minnesota today. Do we see him in the video? You see the white shirt, blue hat. There he is, the guy, you know.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Well, the interesting thing as we look at this video is, how is his ankle doing? He is going to walk here. And you can see when he is walking that there is no limp. He looks fine. No, he looks fine. Nothing discernible, anyway. He looks -- not that I am a doctor.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: That's the Rick Sanchez play-by-play on Brett Favre tonight. But there is a little bit of a play-by-play, not to poke a little fun.

Let's take a look at the Web site, the Vikings' official Web site, where they -- we are showing you a couple of pictures. But if you click on this, there are multiple pictures of Brett Favre, play- by-play. You can see his foot getting out of the car, getting in and out of the plane. It's like every second, they're following Brett Favre as he arrives there, not to mention, other than all these pictures which you can look at, people are tweeting up a storm.

And many of them -- look, we're poking fun. I know it's a serious sports story. Many people poking fun at Favre for possibly retiring and then coming back again.

SANCHEZ: I love Andy Borowitz.

BALDWIN: You love him. So he says, "Is it possible that at Brett Favre's age, he just keeps forgetting he retired?"

And I think we have another one from Ashton Kutcher. There it is. "Favre is coming back. There's a shocker."

So, people having a little fun. Again, we should know -- according to this media advisory, it is 11:40 a.m. tomorrow local time. So, we will wait and see.

SANCHEZ: Yes. He retires, he unretires. He retires, he unretires. Good for him.

Now, what is this business about actually being able to use computers to be a dad?

BALDWIN: Precisely that. It's kind of a first actually for the state of New York and perhaps we will see this now more often. And it is also perhaps a sign of the times, because the parents can't exactly afford it.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: It's almost like virtual child raising, though.

BALDWIN: Which that's a whole other -- we can pontificate some other time.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Here's the deal. A judge in New York has now allowed the divorced woman to move states away from her ex-husband under one condition. You gave it away. Basically, the Internet, her children are required to Skype with their father. That's free online video communication.

So, the ex-wife here, the mother, Debra Baker, had asked the court for permission to move from Long Island, New York, to Florida to live with her parents. Look, she fell on tough times. She lost her job. House in foreclosure. But her ex-husband, who lives on Long Island, objected.

But a judge ruled that Debra if could go if she could -- quote -- read this with me -- "make the children available three times per week for not less than one hour per connection to communicate via Skype with their father."

Only problem, dad said, through the attorney to CNN, look, we have never heard of Skype before.

SANCHEZ: What is Skype?

BALDWIN: They had no idea. I guess he will be learning fast. We don't know if they will appeal. Apparently, the first Skype session is this Friday morning. And you sort of hit on what I think is sort of the crux of the story. Why aren't they just visiting in person?

But I think, look, they fell on hard times. And they can't exactly afford the flights back and forth. I think there is some kind of visitation in the spring and the winter, but beyond that...

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Makes sense.

Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: You're welcome.

SANCHEZ: Good stuff.

BALDWIN: Thanks.

SANCHEZ: I want to show something here. Take a look at this sound bite, folks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY WILLIAMS, ORANGEBURG COUNTY, SOUTH CAROLINA, SHERIFF: I believe she was fed up with her mother telling her that she couldn't take care of the children or she wasn't taking care of the children, and she just wanted to be free.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ: This is the news conference that surprised so many of us today, as we sat there with our jaws somewhat dropped, listening to what police were saying.

Now police said today, no, this woman, she didn't drown her children, after all. She first killed them at a motel, then put them in the car and made it look like they drowned accidentally in the river.

Soledad O'Brien is going to join me in just a little bit as well with her exclusive interview with the mother of Omar Thornton. Remember Omar Thornton? He's the man who killed his colleagues. He said it was because of racism. His employers say, no, it's because we fired him that morning. She tells us about her last conversation with her son. Stay right there. We will be right back. This is RICK'S LIST.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Hey, welcome back, everyone. I'm Rick Sanchez.

You remember the story of Omar Thornton, the man who killed eight of his co-workers at a beer distributorship in Manchester, Connecticut? He blamed the entire thing on racism, remember? Before he turned the gun on himself, he made one last phone call. That phone call was to his mom. She has not spoken to anyone on camera until now. I want you to listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOLLIDAY: At the end of it, what got me, he said, "I love you."

He is a very good person and he has a big heart, but he just don't use the word "I love you" like that. And that gave me like a kind of -- kind of like a chilling feeling inside.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: And here is Soledad O'Brien, my colleague, joining me now.

Soledad, always good to see you. What is Lillie Holliday going through right now? What did she say to you?

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you know, the first thing she said was, I really want to express publicly sympathy for those families that are hurting, like I'm hurting.

And I think that was probably the biggest thing she wanted to get off her chest. And I think a lot of the conversation that we had was about trying to understand, trying to reconcile the young man, her son, that she knew with a guy who we know through media reports coldly opened fire on his colleagues.

I said, how do you put together a young man who you say was kind and big-hearted and lovely vs. this killer? And she said, I don't know. I can't explain it. We sat down for just under an hour. And here's a little bit of what we talked about. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HOLLIDAY: He just started to seem to get more frustrated, more aggravated. And I could just kind of see slowly he was just getting really frustrated and aggravated.

O'BRIEN: The company said they had no complaints from him, that he never reported any problems, any issues with colleagues.

HOLLIDAY: Oh, he reported problems, because he brought home the papers that they signed. He brought them home to me. So, I know that he reported them.

O'BRIEN: When he called you, what did he say?

HOLLIDAY: It was around, 7:00, 7:48 or somewhere around that time.

O'BRIEN: So, what happened?

HOLLIDAY: I answered the phone. And I was so used to him calling me every morning. He said, "Mom."

And I said, "Hello."

He said, "I just killed the five most racist people."

And I knew he wasn't playing because he don't talk like that. But I was I guess hoping that -- that it wasn't true. And then I said to him, I said, "Omar, what are you talking about?"

And then I looked down at the phone, and I saw that that wasn't from his cell phone. It was from the job. And I knew. And I just kind of lost it. And I was trying to talk over him and tell him to don't do it, because he said, "I'm going to kill myself." That's what he said. "I killed the five most racist people and I'm going to kill myself."

O'BRIEN: Were there any clues?

HOLLIDAY: The only clues that I could say that I really had is that he was getting more stressed out. And he started to just kind of change a little, a little different from...

O'BRIEN: How do you mean?

HOLLIDAY: Like, where he was even more relaxed, he started not being so relaxed. But I never thought that it would be possible that something like this would happen.

O'BRIEN: There were some reports that said he saw a picture of a noose and racial slurs written on a bathroom wall. Did he tell you that?

HOLLIDAY: Yes, he did. He told me that. And his girlfriend said that she saw the pictures.

And I think -- or a landlord that, in that building, said that he saw the pictures on the phone as well.

O'BRIEN: There is this call that was made, the 911 call. He sounds so calm.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

THORNTON: This is Omar Thornton, the -- the shooter over in Manchester. So, I had to take it into my own hands and handle the problem. I wish I could have got more of the people.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Felt like he didn't kill enough. Have you heard that?

HOLLIDAY: I heard that.

O'BRIEN: And what did you think when you listened to it? He sounds so calm.

HOLLIDAY: I think that -- I think that he was like at his limit. And the calmness is something that he has always been. I never have really seen him in a rage or just or being very angry. I have never really seen that.

O'BRIEN: What's going through your mind now?

HOLLIDAY: What's going through my mind is that I wish he still was here with me. I miss him so much. He is just a gentle spirit. He is the kind of kid that I could be out somewhere and come home and he will have went out and bought my favorite ice cream and put it in the freezer or left the rolls on the table for me.

I miss him. It hurts so bad.

O'BRIEN: There are people who think he is a monster.

HOLLIDAY: He is no monster. He is no monster. He is a good, a very good, was a very good individual.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: She made it clear, I should say, Rick, in this interview that she is in no way trying to forget or excuse what happened, what her son did, killing his colleagues. She said she is just trying to wrap her mind around it and understand what could have motivated him, because, in her mind, he was a calm, not angry, not violent, youngish man.

And she ended by saying, again, that she was -- really wanted to send the message to the families that she was -- that she understood that they were hurting, that she was hurting, too, and that she hoped that she could be one day possibly an advocate to be able to recognize signs in someone who is about to snap.

She feels very, I thought, clearly, in some way, culpable that she didn't recognize in her son the night before calling her saying something that didn't sit quite right with her that she didn't go and act on it and stop him from whatever he was planning the next day.

SANCHEZ: Soledad O'Brien with that exclusive interview for us -- we thank you, Soledad.

Are we getting the full story, by the way, when it comes to all this business of the oil spill, what is left in the Gulf of Mexico, what have they been able to pick up. We have a CNN exclusive that we want to bring you tonight. I know a lot of you have asked us a lot of questions about this, the oil and the dispersants that was used to separate the oil. Where is it?

Some experts are saying, they have found it. And wait until you find out where they say it is and the harm that it may be causing now to our ecosystem.

Also, we are also going to be looking at this tweet. It's from the conversation boaters on the Gulf. This is part of our spill list that we have kept here. It says, "Out of sight, out of mind. Not so fast. Gulf waters may look better, but environmental disaster far from over."

And then there is this also: chilling new details on the mother that is charged with killing her baby boys. Were there warning signs? Can something like this be stopped before it is too late? We're going to be able to hear from some experts tonight.

By the way, you're not going to believe the numbers that we've dug up on just how often this happens in the United States. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Hey, welcome back. This is RICK'S LIST. So glad that you're here.

I need to tell you about some disturbing new developments in a story that started out as a tragedy involving two baby boys. One was only a year old, the other one just 2 years old, found dead inside their mother's car in a river in Orangeburg, South Carolina. This was yesterday.

She, the mother, said that "Look, they just drowned after an accident." That's what she said. But then things quickly went from heartbreaking to ominous, when sheriff's deputies arrested that same mother, Shaquan Duley, on murder charges.

Now, investigators are telling us that Duley actually killed both of her little boys, even before she got to the river. And she did it at a motel. They say Duley confessed, admitting that she strangled the young children at this motel you're looking at right there before she drove her car, their lifeless bodies inside of it, to the Edisto River. That's about a 20-minute drive she would have made with her dead children in the car.

And this may be the hardest piece of information to hear. The coroner now says, told us this, just a couple of hours ago, that the 2-year-old's body showed signs of a struggle and some defensive wounds. In other words, he's fighting his own mom who may have been trying to kill him at the time. The Orangeburg County sheriff says Duley was unemployed raising the two boys and a 5-year-old girl with no father around at the time. They were living with Duley's mother and an argument between the two women on Sunday night may have sent Duley over the edge. The sheriff speculates Duley wanted to be freed of her obligations.

Robi Ludwig is a psychotherapist and a contributor for care.com. And she's good enough to join us now.

You know what, we did a little research this morning on RICK'S LIST, Robi, and I was shocked when I read these numbers that I'm about to read to you and the rest of our viewers. This is from the American Anthropological Association. Two hundred women kill their children in the United States every single year.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes.

SANCHEZ: Three to five children a day are killed by their parents in the United States.

LUDWIG: Yes.

SANCHEZ: And of the 53 women currently serving in death row, 11 of them are there because they killed their own children. I didn't know this was so vast.

LUDWIG: It is. And the leading cause of death for children who are under 4 is due to homicide by a parent. And I think what's so striking and so disturbing is we really like to think that once somebody becomes a parent that they have the right kind of attachment to their child. That somehow they're able to become the good enough mother. And what we see is sometimes that's just not the case. There are parents who are unable to attach to their children for a whole host of reasons. And sometimes it ends up deadly.

SANCHEZ: What in the world would cause someone to kill their own flesh and blood though? I mean -- it's hard to for us to put our heads around something like that, especially, you know a guy like me and my wife, we've got four kids.

LUDWIG: Well, I think -- I think anyone who does --

SANCHEZ: Go ahead.

LUDWIG: Yes. Well, I think anyone who's a parent knows that there are moments of frustration. And we don't know if this woman had postpartum depression, or if she had a history of child abuse in her own history. But there is rage and impulsive killings that happen very often via shaking a baby or suffocating a child. There is the feeling that a child sometimes is interfering with a parent's freedom and if a parent isn't developmentally mature, they could want to get rid of the child thinking that, you know they then can have the life that they want to have. So here you can see that parents have a whole range of reactions and some of them are quite scary.

SANCHEZ: Let me ask you a question that I've always wondered about -- a lot of people say this, and sometimes they say it in kind of a kidding fashion. But there might be some seriousness to this question. We take tests for just about everything in this world, you know, to get jobs, to drive cars. Should we have some kind of, either test or maybe some kind of formal training for everybody before we start having children?

LUDWIG: Well, that would be nice. In an ideal world, it'd be great if that could happen. But one of the things we can do is make doctors and just people around women who are pregnant a little bit more aware of the women who are at risk. You know, maybe they didn't want to have the pregnancy. Maybe they don't have a job. Maybe they suffer from depression. Maybe they don't have a partner. You know, are there stressors? Is there a history for mental illness?

These are things that perhaps we need to be a little bit more aware of so that when a mother gives birth and is suffering from postpartum depression or psychosis, or says "I want to kill my children," maybe we need to be a little bit more aware that mothers can kill their children.

SANCHEZ: Yes, yes.

LUDWIG: Maybe they're sick, and maybe there's regret afterwards but it does happen. And to be more aware.

SANCHEZ: That makes a lot of sense, Robi. Thank you so much for bringing us your perspective on the story.

LUDWIG: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: We've got disturbing news from the Gulf of Mexico. This is a CNN exclusive, by the way. You know we've been telling you that scientists say that marine organisms just south of Panama City, Florida, are in fact, infected with toxic levels of oil and dispersants. Our Ed Lavandera is all over the story. His report is in just a couple of moments.

Also, you can get a look at RICK'S LIST behind the scenes any time you want. All you've got to do is go to CNN.com/ricksanchez.

I think you'll enjoy these. You'll see what we do when we put this show together every morning, sometime between 7:00 and noon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: The news today is this mother who police have just said killed her own kids. They're charging her with --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: We have been hearing so many reports about the Gulf of Mexico -- how much oil is actually there? How much oil is picked up? We heard reports from BP and from the government essentially saying to us, look, we've got all kinds of skimmers there and many of them have not been able to get any more oil because we can't find the oil. But now, take a look at some of these pictures because we've got scientists who are saying, uh-uh, we have found some of this oil. And it's way down there. Way down deep. And it can cause serious problems. So what are the facts? This is an exclusive report, our correspondent is Eddie Lavandera, from St. Petersburg, Florida.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is the Weather Bird 2, a research vessel that has been used by the University of South Florida for the last 10 days investigating the oil spill. Some 13 scientists have been on-board and they're just now coming home to St. Petersburg. So what's in these containers right here?

DAVID HOLLANDER, UNIV. OF SOUTH FLORIDA: Water in here has been -- was collected from 50 meters.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): David Hollander was one of the lead researchers on the mission.

(on camera): Did you feel like you're kind of on the verge of really getting a better understanding of what's going on underneath the water?

HOLLANDER: I think we're adding to the puzzle. We're adding to the pieces of the puzzle.

This is where we found the sedimentary oil.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Hollander and another expert on the journey, John Paul, sat down with CNN for an exclusive review of their findings. The USF scientists say they found toxic levels of oil and dispersants infecting marine organisms just 40 miles south of Panama City, Florida. The organisms called phytoplankton and other microscopic bacteria in the ocean are the foundation of the food chain.

PROF. JOHN PAUL, UNIV. SOUTH FLORIDA: What feeds and fuels the ecology of the ocean and if those guys are in trouble, then the ocean is in trouble.

LAVANDERA: So far, federal government scientists have downplayed the impact of microscopic oil making its way up the food chain. This is what the head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration said earlier this month.

DR. JANE LUBCHENCO, NOAA ADMINISTRATOR: Fish will degrade that oil and process it naturally. And so it doesn't bio-accumulate, so it's not a situation where we need to be concerned about that. Over time it will be broken down.

LAVANDERA: USF scientists tell CNN that is a shortsighted view of the danger. NOAA officials haven't responded to these latest scientific findings. The 10-day mission in the Gulf of Mexico was a rocky voyage. The scientists were battered with 12-foot seas and strong storms taking them within 25 miles of the Deepwater Horizon spill site. All along the way, they found microscopic droplets of oil on the ocean floor.

HOLLANDER: Here is a sedimentary record from an area that's 1,500 meters water depth --

LAVANDERA (on camera): OK.

HOLLANDER: Right adjacent to the Deepwater Horizon.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Using UV light on the sediment, the microscopic oil stands out easily. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can see it all spread out all over. There's no reflection. Some of those weren't before, but this is all speckled. And when you turn off the light completely, it looks like the southern sky.

LAVANDERA (on camera): It looks like a constellation of stars.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like a constellation of stars.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): But most troubling to David Hollander is evidence that the submerged oil is making its way through a region of the Gulf of Mexico known as the Desoto Canyon. The canyon stretches from just east of the Deepwater Horizon spill site to an area south of Panama City.

(on camera): So the concern is not only that you found the droplets of oil widespread but where you found it.

HOLLANDER: Yes, it's becoming now into these areas that are critical marine protective areas, critical habitats for commercial and recreational fish.

LAVANDERA: BP officials tell CNN, quote, "That we want to know everything that everyone wants to know and that they've dedicated some $500 million to study the long-term impacts of this oil spill. The scientists here in St. Petersburg will continue to analyze the evidence they brought back over the next few weeks and are planning a return trip to the gulf waters in September.

Ed Lavandera, CNN, St. Petersburg, Florida.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Colleague and buddy Larry King is joining us now. And he's going to be talking to Dr. Laura Schlessinger.

You know, we broke that story last week, her rant or conversation, Larry. She revealed so much about herself in those minutes when she did that. This should be a heck of an interview tonight. I can't wait to watch this.

LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Yes, it's going to be very interesting. And she's also told us she's got an announcement to make, a major announcement. So, I don't know what that is. But we'll find out everything, at the top of the show right coming off. We'll discuss her thing on the radio last week, the comment she made, and the -- using the "n" word many, many times, in response to a listener. Plus, a major announcement. We'll get a full explanation at the top of the show, Rick.

And then we'll have Kathy Griffin talking about Proposition 8. Why the comedienne and same-sex marriage supporter doesn't find the law funny at all. Then we're going to have a panel discussion on that, then I'll have some comments on the passing of Bobby Thomson who gave me, gave me the saddest moment of my life.

SANCHEZ: That's a great moment. Remember the announcement?

KING: It's all ahead on "LARRY KING LIVE."

SANCHEZ: Remember what the announcer said back then?

KING: Oh, Russ Hodges.

SANCHEZ: Yes, that's right.

KING: The Giants win the pennant. Said it 11 times.

SANCHEZ: I have tweeted that (ph).

KING: Stop it, Rick! Stop it, Rick! Stop it.

SANCHEZ: Tomorrow we'll talk about the Dolphins going to the Super Bowl. And then we'll both smile, all right?

KING: OK.

SANCHEZ: I'll bring you back to nirvana. Larry King, everybody. That's a great show you have tonight. I can't wait.

KING: Thanks, Rick.

SANCHEZ: Thanks.

All right. Take a look at this, folks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got a real crisis in our education system. And we need to be taking it seriously. This is the canary in the mine shaft. Hey, guys, this thing is not working.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: He's right, our schools are in crisis. The proof -- a report out today that includes this shocking stat. The overall high school graduation rate for black male students in this country is under 50 percent. Just 47 percent. I'm going to talk to an educator whose school is a success. He says this can be fixed.

And then "Fotos" is coming up. This is about cop versus bees? We're going to show you who won the showdown. Stay right there.

This is RICK'S LIST. I'm Rick Sanchez. And we're going to be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back. Best part of the show to watch. You've heard of Holy Rollers (ph), right? This takes it to a new level. Time for "Fotos."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ah, dios mio. SANCHEZ: Ah, dios mio was right. It's time for the skateboarding padre.

This Roman Catholic priest is in Hungary. He's become an Internet sensation for his skateboarding skills. But he's not just showing off, the priest says that after showing kids these tricks, a lot of the youngsters who never attended church before, suddenly started showing up at mass.

Now, look at this one. This is no honeycomb. Wake County, North Carolina, a local deputy squad car is swarmed by hundreds of bees. That's right. Bees.

The truck transporting 60 boxes of bees broke down on U.S. 64. The released bees swarmed the deputy's Dodge cruiser. The bees had to be smoked off of the vehicle.

And all hail the yo-yo master. Yo-yo aficionados attending last weekend's world yo-yo contest in Orlando got their minds blown by the new champ, Jensen Kimmitt (ph) of Canada. That's right. He can walk the dog among others.

That's "Fotos." And you can see for yourself whenever you want. You can go to my blog any time you want at CNN.com/ricksanchez.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ah, dios mio.

SANCHEZ: There is some new information on dropout rates that makes anyone who cares about education, sick in their stomach. How does this happen in this country, our country?

Here's what my next guest Steve Perry says about it. Let's go to the big board.

There's Twitter. All right. Steve Perry thinks that he knows. "It's the fact that we know how to fix our schools but we choose not to because if we do, teachers, principals and others then get fired." All right. Steve Perry has got a theory about this.

I'm going to ask him about it. Stay right there. We're doing this right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Russell Simmons, that's right, he's watching RICK'S LIST and he's sending tweets as well. We're glad he is.

I want to tell you about a study. It's a respected organization, the Schott Foundation. It shows that half of America's black males aren't graduating high school. This is what Mr. Simmons was talking about in his tweet. In fact, more than half their graduation rate is scarcely over 47 percent.

Steve Perry is a CNN education contributor. He's joining me now. And more importantly, he's the principal, a successful urban school. This is in Hartford, Connecticut. Hey, Steve, good to see you.

STEVE PERRY, CNN EDUCATION CONTRIBUTOR: Nice to see you.

SANCHEZ: What percentage of your students graduate?

PERRY: About 97 percent graduate. We haven't had a dropout student yet.

SANCHEZ: Really?

PERRY: About 100 percent of our students go into four-year colleges.

SANCHEZ: Well, how is that? I mean, how can you do that while the rest of the country is so different?

PERRY: Well, it's not the rest of the country. It's in fact, many of the large school systems are failing because they made a conscious effort to choose the careers of the faculty and staff versus the careers of the children. This is a conscious decision. This is not something that happened by accident. This is a decision to give the teachers and principals, the superintendents another year to give it another try and not say, well, enough is enough.

SANCHEZ: Well --

PERRY: Give these families the opportunity to go to the schools that they feel are best for them.

SANCHEZ: I was talking to Gary Daughters (ph), who was talking to you earlier. He's the producer who worked on the segment. He told me that you told him that you fired 10 to 20 percent of your staff every single year. Some folks would look at you and say well, how in the world do you get away with that?

PERRY: Because I have courage. Because I'm not scared of unions. I'm not scared of anybody. What I'm scared of is the failure of our children because I understand that my obligation is to the children.

I'm not there to make friends. I'm there to make children successful. I'm a member of a team that wants to win. And not everybody is good for every team. So every single year we have to do some things. We have sit some grown people down and tell them that, you know what, maybe this thing, this teaching thing ain't for you.

SANCHEZ: I want you to listen to something because I thought my colleague, Tony Harris, posed this question today in such an interesting way. I want you to hear his question and then I want to get your response to it.

Cal (ph), if you got that, would you be good enough to roll that for us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: What do you say to people who will see this report and say "that's not a problem for my child. We are in a performing school district." You know I have thrown money into the education rabbit hole for years, good solid, tax dollars, and here we are again talking about African American boys who aren't performing. You know, I feel bad for them, over there, but it's not my issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: A bit of a thespian Tony in that situation, but it makes an interesting point. How would you answer that?

PERRY: I would answer that the United States of America, all of the United States of America, has performed -- is 24th in the world. We're getting stomped by countries that we can't even pronounce the names of. That's not black kids getting beaten. That's all of our kids getting beaten. It's an embarrassment how much money we spend and how often we fail.

At some point, we all have to acknowledge that if one group of our children are failing and all of our children are failing. In fact if you look at states such as Georgia where the white male graduation rate is somewhere around 53 percent, we all ought to be embarrassed. We ought to stick our head down that rabbit hole in shame. At some point, we have to begin to let the winners win. Let the schools that have been successful throughout the country lead the way.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

PERRY: Learn from them. Stop throwing good money after bad. And more important than money, forget the money for a second. Stop ruining the lives of children because we know for a fact that when children don't have access to a quality education, their lives are markedly worse.

SANCHEZ: Steve -- Steve Perry, you're a tough guy. I appreciate your earnestness and your candor. I think it's been an interesting interview. We'll see you again next time.

PERRY: All right.

SANCHEZ: By the way, a lot of folks are talking about this tonight. Look at the Reverend Al Sharpton. He sent this tweet to me. Also, he says that's why I'm passionate about education. It is the civil rights issue of the 21st century.

There you go. "LARRY KING LIVE" begins right now.