Return to Transcripts main page
Showbiz Tonight
News Incest Bombshells; Michael Jackson Tapes; Martha`s Doggone Apology; Stunning New MJ Tapes; Oprah-Mackenzie Shocker
Aired September 25, 2009 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
A.J. HAMMER, CNN HOST: Right now on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT, brand new Mackenzie Phillips incest shockers. Why Mackenzie went back on Oprah today after claiming she had a sexual relationship with her father. Tonight, even more startling claims, and why Mackenzie`s half sister went on Oprah with her today, and what she revealed. Plus, the bombshell that Oprah dropped about whether the incest claims could be true.
The almost unbelievable, chilling Michael Jackson tapes. Jackson heard tonight on NBC`s "Dateline" describing how he says his father beat him.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, POP ICON: He would make you strip nude first. He`ll oil you down and it`s a whole ritual.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HAMMER: Tonight, you will not believe what you are about to hear. Where do these tapes come from? Why does Michael slam Madonna? And his bizarre relationship with mannequins.
Plus, Martha Stewart`s doggone apology to Jessica Simpson for giving her a hard time after her beloved dog was snatched by a coyote.
TV`s most provocative entertainment news show starts right now.
Hello, I am A.J. Hammer, broadcasting tonight and every night from New York City, and tonight new incest bombshells from Mackenzie Phillips.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MACKENZIE PHILLIPS, AUTHOR, HIGH ON ARRIVAL: I woke up that night from a blackout to find myself having sex with my own father.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: Just days after she went on the "Oprah Winfrey Show" to make that incredible claim that she had a sexual relationship with her father, Mackenzie Phillips went back on "Oprah Show" today and what happened today made for big news - breaking.
For the very first time, Mackenzie responds to the disturbing backlash, then she told Oprah when they - about the incestuous affair with her father, Mamas and the Papas legend, John Phillips. Then there`s the family feud that`s erupted since Mackenzie`s incest claims. Oprah reveals today how Mackenzie`s family is torn apart and is now confronting here.
And right there on "Oprah" with Mackenzie today was her half sister, Chynna. So would Chynna back up Mackenzie or would she call her a liar to her face? And leave it to Oprah to drop her own bombshell. Oprah today expose the startling revelation about whether Mackenzie is telling the truth.
Joining me tonight in Hollywood is Carlos Diaz who`s a correspondent for "Extra." Tonight in New York is Cooper Lawrence, who`s a psychologist and author of "The Cult of Celebrity."
Well, no big surprise here. Mackenzie`s explosive incest claims have set off a vicious feud that really has split her family right down the middle. Her stepmother is furious, her younger half sisters` just scared and confused, and her older half sister supports her.
In spite of all of that, Mackenzie went back on Oprah today for a brand new interview and says it was all still absolutely worth it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. PHILLIPS: I understand and I totally agree that - that this is - it - it`s turned out to be much more explosive than I could ever have imagined, and - And I`m really sorry, Chy, to put you in this position. All of - the whole family, I`m very - I`m very, very sorry about that, but I don`t regret writing the book because I really believe it`s going to be a great help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: All right. So, on the one hand Mackenzie said today that she`s helping other victims of incest. On the other hand, she`s completely torn her family in half.
Carlos, do you think that Mackenzie really handled her confessions the right way?
CARLOS DIAZ, "EXTRA" CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, A.J., what kind of family are we talking about here? This is not the Brady Bunch. I mean, these are a bunch of - I mean, they - they`ve admitted that they are drug users.
You know, it cracks me up when Michelle Phillips says that, you know, this is - "Well, Mackenzie`s on drugs. She`s got a needle in her arm for 35 years." Well, guess who put that needle in her arm? I mean, according to Mackenzie, it was her dad. I mean - you know, I think we just need to get off of Mackenzie`s back here and we need to kind of -
Yes. You know, what? She`s making money off of a book, but you know what? She`s also doing such a great thing for such a taboo for so many girls who are afraid to come forward. Maybe now they have the guts to do so.
HAMMER: Yes. I mean, look at the amount of attention this is getting. It really is unprecedented, and the fact that we`re talking about it again tonight, and there`s so much more to tell you about what happened.
You have Mackenzie`s stepmother, Michelle Phillips. Now, Michelle was the second wife of Mackenzie`s dad. She was - was a member of the Mamas and the Papas as well, and she`s just outraged over Mackenzie`s incest claims. Here`s what she tells a Hollywood reporter, "I have every reason to believe it was untrue. John was a bad parent and a drug addict, but he - but [blank]ing his daughter? If she thinks it`s true, why isn`t she with a good psychiatrist on a couch? Mackenzie has a lot of mental illness. She`s had a needle stuck up her arm for 35 years."
And that`s not all. Michelle ranted again today to "Vanity Fair" but Mackenzie was really unfazed by Michelle`s big backlash. Watch what she told Oprah today about her stepmother`s comments. Look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. PHILLIPS: When Michelle found out I was writing this book, she vowed to do everything she could to discredit me. And, you know - And, Oprah, this is - this is - either she is protecting the Mamas and Papas brand for her own reasons or she is having a textbook reaction, she`s embarrassed, sweep it under the carpet, protect the abuser - I don`t have a history of mental illness, I have a history of addiction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: Cooper, what`s your take on this? Is Michelle Phillips, Mackenzie`s stepmother, out of line for railing so hard against her stepdaughter or does she have every right to be so angry?
COOPER LAWRENCE, PSYCHOLOGIST AND AUTHOR: Well, she`s totally out of line because she didn`t live the life, so she can`t suppose what happened to Mackenzie. But Mackenzie makes a good point. It`s so good - I mean, obviously she`s had therapy, so the correlation between being on the couch and incest, I don`t really understand Michelle Phillips` comment there. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
But she is protecting the Mamas and the Papas, she is protecting the abuser, because that`s usually what happens, and Mackenzie was right in that way. But, you know, it`s not Mackenzie`s job to protect the family. Nobody protected when she was being molested, so I think it`s perfectly fine for her to come out and say all of this. I think Michelle Phillips is - is doing more harm right now, and she really - just shut the heck up.
HAMMER: Yes. And Mackenzie fortunately is not alone in all this, because on the other side of the family feud, you have Mackenzie`s older half- sister Chynna who also went on Oprah today to defend Mackenzie. You`ve got to watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
OPRAH WINFREY, HOST, THE OPRAH WINFREY SHOW: So you believe her?
CHYNNA PHILLIPS, SINGER/ACTRESS: Well - okay. Yes. But details around the book, you know, how can a person who has been doing drugs and - and admit that she was on drugs during the time of all of this stuff going on, how can the details be perfectly accurate? But I do know there was a consensual relationship between my father and my sister that lasted for 10 years.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
HAMMER: But it wasn`t all roses for Chynna. She didn`t make it clear to Oprah that Mackenzie did not go about this the right way as far as she was concerned. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
C. PHILLIPS: That was the only thing that hurt my feelings. I felt like if I had - if I`d been privy to the information a tad bit sooner, you know, at least maybe I could have prepared myself emotionally for the fire storm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: So, Carlos, what do you think about that? Because a lot of people have been bringing this up. Does Chynna have a point? Should Mackenzie have gone about revealing such information that`s so explosive differently than she did, you know, putting out this book and - and going on "Oprah" without first talking to people so she could protect her family or if - does she have no responsibility there?
DIAZ: No - in a perfect world, A.J., you`re right. In a perfect world, Chynna has a point, that she should have gone to everyone and said this is what I am going to do. But keep in mind, "Oprah" is not scripted, OK? It`s not one of those things where, you know, people are reading off a page. Oprah is a great interviewer and she maybe brought some things out of Mackenzie that maybe Mackenzie didn`t want to talk about, but this has been on Mackenzie`s mind for so many years.
Maybe she was afraid that if she called someone and told them what they did (ph) - she was going to reveal this on "Oprah", maybe they would try to talk her out of it or maybe she just wanted to go - get on that show and see where things happened and maybe it wasn`t her entire plan to reveal so much information.
HAMMER: Well, here`s now another so interesting component to this whole thing. We also learned today that Mackenzie`s younger half-sister, Bijou Phillips, is saying that Mackenzie actually told her about having a consensual sexual relationship with their dad when Bijou was just 13 years old at the time. Then Bijou claims Mackenzie went back and told her, "Hey, you know, it never happened."
Here`s what Bijou tells SHOWBIZ TONIGHT. "The man that raised me would never be capable of doing such things, and if he was, it is heartbreaking to me to think that my family would leave me alone with him. I understand Mackenzie`s need to come clean with a history she feels will help others, but it`s devastating to have the world watch as we try and mend broken fences, especially when the man in question isn`t here to defend himself."
So, how did Mackenzie react to what Bijou so powerfully said? Here`s what Mackenzie told "Oprah" today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. PHILLIPS: My father, by the time that - that Bijou was living with him had changed his ways as much as he was able to and, you know, maybe I - maybe I did her a disservice. I don`t know, but I felt she was safe, you know? It`s a - why did I leave her there? I felt she was safe, but when I felt she was in danger, I took her out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: Cooper Lawrence, I want to get your take here because you are squarely on Mackenzie`s side and I`m wondering if you think Bijou`s claim that Mackenzie took back her incest claim could actually compromise Mackenzie`s credibility in getting this word out.
LAWRENCE: Before I said about credibility, I`ll need to just be clear about one thing. When it comes to incest, it`s not uncommon for the abuser to single out one child. You could have five kids in a family and only one of them gets abused, which is why the other kids go, "I can`t imagine this would happen. It didn`t happen to me." Well, that`s not the answer. The answer is it did happen to one sister, it doesn`t mean that it has to happen to all of them.
You know, I think at the time Mackenzie wasn`t clear in her own mind. I think it really explains her drug use for so long - you know, to compound, you know, the pain that she was going through and the fact that her father was the first to introduce her to drugs. In a way, it was helpful because if he was going to be abusing her, being on drugs was the only way that she can quell the pain and - and deal with what was happening to her.
HAMMER: It`s just all so incredible, and there is even more reaction to Mackenzie Phillips` incest claims coming in from around the country today. And today, Oprah surprised Mackenzie when she dropped a real bombshell about whether the incest claims could be true. Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: I need to say this. Two days ago, we received an e-mail from a woman named Jessica Woods. Jessica`s father, Denny Doherty, was the other male singer in The Mamas and the Papas. Now, here`s some of what Jessica wrote to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: Carlos Diaz, Cooper Lawrence, don`t move. We`re going to reveal what Oprah had to say about that in just a moment. But first, tonight absolutely chilling, never before heard taped conversations with Michael Jackson. He describes in graphic detail how his father allegedly beat him.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JACKSON: He would make you strip nude first. He would oil you down. It would be a whole ritual. He would oil you down - so when the - when the flip of the - of the ironing cord hit you, which is, you know.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HAMMER: This is just mind blowing. In these tapes, just heard on NBC`s "Dateline" tonight Michael also slams Madonna and talks about his bizarre relationship with mannequins. You`ve got to hear this for yourself.
Also, it`s Martha`s doggone apology. Martha Stewart apologizes to Jessica Simpson for giving her a hard time after her dog was snatched by a coyote. Plus our brand-new segment starts tonight. We are going to do this every Friday. You`re here for the very first one when SHOWBIZ TONIGHT names the most provocative celebrity of the week.
This is SHOWBIZ TONIGHT on HLN. Time now for the Showbiz News Ticker. More stories from the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT newsroom, making news right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAMMER: Welcome back to SHOWBIZ TONIGHT. I`m A.J. Hammer in New York. Tonight, Martha`s doggone apology. Everyone`s favorite kitchen diva, Martha Stewart, was eating some major crow today after slamming Jessica Simpson after Jessica lost her beloved dog, Daisy. Days after Jessica`s dog was snatched by a coyote, Martha Stewart accused Jessica of being careless and blamed her for what happened. Cruel, Martha, cruel! But wait until you hear what Martha is saying now.
And Paula Abdul is telling everyone to back off Ellen. In a brand new interview revealed today, Paula defends Ellen, even after spoofing Ellen for replacing her as a judge on "American Idol." With me tonight in New York, Steven Smith - he is a music and pop culture expert. Also in New York, Rachel Zalis - she is a contributing editor for "Life & Style Weekly".
And let`s begin with Jessica Simpson. You know, I - I`ve been pretty bummed out about how people have been so mean to her for hoping that Daisy would be found. Even dog lover Martha Stewart ragged on her. But tonight, Martha realizes that was not a good thing. Here is what she said on her show. "I said that she should have been watching her dog more closely, but I feel very, very sorry for anybody that loses a pet. Jessica, I hope you find your pet, but if you don`t, I`m really sorry that you lost one."
Steven, are you with me? This is what I would have expected Martha to have said in the first place and not the mean thing that she said to Jessica.
STEVEN SMITH, MUSIC AND POP CULTURE EXPERT: Yes, you think - you know, an excon would be a little more sensitive to people losing their pet. Just going to go and throw that out there.
HAMMER: Why not?
SMITH: She should have said that. She should have said that`s really awful and she also shouldn`t have said go out and buy another pet, just exchange it for something else to love. I think that was the most insensitive remark she made. Should have watched it more closely? Yes, duh! Thanks, M, but buy a new one and hell of it? No, that`s not cool.
HAMMER: And there were reports that Jessica is having a really hard time getting over the loss of Daisy. You certainly can understand that. She had Daisy for six years.
Rachel, Martha seemed very sincere to me with this apology. So, do you think Jessica should just accept it? We all move on?
RACHEL ZALIS, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, LIFE & STYLE WEEKLY: First of all, I don`t know why Martha is even getting involved with this. She should stick to what she does best - making pies and obstruction of justice. There you have it.
HAMMER: Oh, don`t - don`t forget about the - the - what was that she wore over her head? The - you know - the thing? The frock. The poncho. Yes, yes, OK.
ZALIS: Yes. Absolutely. Yes - no. I think - listen, I don`t really think that was such an apology anyway. She reiterated what she said and then she said, "But I am sorry she lost her dog." So, I don`t know.
HAMMER: She got called out on it and she had to say something, I guess.
Let`s move on because making news today, Paula Abdul defending Ellen DeGeneres. Now, some people really have been hating on Ellen as Paula`s replacement on "American Idol". In fact, even Paula seemed to take a little shot at Ellen with that hilarious spoof on "VH1 Divas" of her. But in a brand new interview with "Radar Online" that was posted today, Paula says enough is enough and she`s got Ellen`s back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAULA ABDUL, DANCER/SINGER/HOST: She needs to do what she does best, which is not bother - not be bothered by what anyone says and just be her charming self, and she`s going to be great.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: You know, I have to tell you, I want to turn on "American Idol" this season and see Paula and Ellen hug it out right there on the stage, kind of like a passing of the torch. Steven, are with you with my brilliant idea there?
SMITH: No, I think a shark has definitely been jumped with the show. I think Ellen DeGeneres coming on, I mean, what`s her background, you know, being able to watch musical theater, being able to dance on the show? I don`t think she`s going to help. I think, in fact, she`s going to hinder "American Idol" and Paula should definitely come back, hug it out and in that hug, wrestle to the ground and then take her right of the seat.
HAMMER: Well, that would be different. Quickly, Rachel, tell me. Do you think, you know, now that Paula has come out and said leave her alone, do you think the critics will shut up finally?
ZALIS: I don`t know. You know - I mean, obviously, Ellen doesn`t have a lot of music background, but she is one of the funniest and most beloved people on TV, so I definitely think people are going to tune in. They want to see what she`s going to say. And Ellen`s been very funny about herself. She said she`s been judged her whole life and she thinks "American Idol" is finally ready for their first blond.
HAMMER: People need to give Ellen a break. Paula says so.
ZALIS: Yes.
HAMMER: Let`s do it. Steven Smith, Rachel Zalis - thanks guys.
So the Showbiz On-Call phone lines have been loaded up. A lot of people calling in about Mackenzie Phillips, obviously, with her shocking claim that she and her dad had sex, people sounding off about whether it was appropriate for Mackenzie to go public with this. Here is a call on the "Showbiz On Call" from Bridget calling in from Washington who says Mackenzie has every right to speak up.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
BRIDGET, WASHINGTON: Mackenzie was correct in doing what she did. Otherwise, I mean in time she would go on a show. People would talk about her father in such loving and glowing terms and she would have to sit there, take that in and then perpetuate that lie. And that - that`s what destroyed her life.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HAMMER: I appreciate that, Bridget. We also heard from Cynthia calling in on Showbiz On Call from Canada. Cynthia thinks that Mackenzie must be telling the truth.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CYNTHIA, CANADA: I don`t think Mackenzie Phillips would have went on television and said this thing she said when she is the one that has to take the repercussion from it. I can`t understand why she would go on there and say those things if they weren`t true. She needs to free herself.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HAMMER: Thank you, Cynthia. Remember, Showbiz On Call phone lines are open all the time, 1-888-SBT-BUZZ. That`s 1-888-728-2899.
So Mackenzie Phillips was back on "Oprah" today with even more shocking revelation. And Oprah dropped a big bombshell about whether her incest claims could be true. The great debate tonight - did Mackenzie do the right thing revealing this horrifying family secret?
Plus, Madonna and Michael Jackson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADONNA, SINGER: Michael Jackson was a human being, but damn it, he was a king. Long live the king!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: Madonna paid tribute to Michael at the "Video Music Awards". But in never before heard taped conversations with Michael Jackson, he actually slams Madonna, and that`s just the beginning. He describes in graphic detail how his father would allegedly beat him and he talks about his bizarre relationship with mannequins. I tell you, you`re not going to believe your ears on this.
Plus, you don`t want to miss this. We`re going to do this every Friday night. You are here for the very first one. Don`t move a muscle. SHOWBIZ TONIGHT is naming the most provocative celebrity of the week, and, wow, what a week it`s been. This is SHOWBIZ TONIGHT on HLN. Now, the Showbiz News Ticker. More stories from the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT newsroom, making news right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAMMER: Welcome back to SHOWBIZ TONIGHT. I`m A.J. Hammer. Did you see this? Whoa! This commercial is causing major controversy as you might well imagine. It`s an ad campaign from a Canadian breast cancer fund raising group. The tag line - "You like them. Now it`s time to save the boobs." Well, some critics are saying it looks more like a beer commercial or soft core porn than a campaign for cancer awareness, and it has people really wild up online. Over "The Huffington Post" a lot of people are posting comments. Some are saying it`s way too sexy, and others are saying, you know what? Lighten up. Whatever gets the word out.
And did you see this last night on "SNL`s Weekend Update Thursday" it was a gut-busting skit all about President Obama spreading the word about his health care plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Food Network, it`s Guy Perry (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here`s my health care plan: two beef patties, buttermilk onion ring, chili cheese fries, all piled on top of tortilla chips.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. That doesn`t seem like a viable plan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t let me finish. We`d top it all up with a liquid queso. I`ll show myself out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Next, there`s someone from the CW. Oh, it`s a teenage vampire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Obama.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes - I`m sorry, which show are you from again?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know. One of those vampire shows. Well, just give us some blood, dude.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
HAMMER: Very nice. Well, the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT Facebook page has been roaring with cougar comments. A lot of people have been commenting on the segment we did about Courtney Cox`s ABC show "Cougar Town" and whether there is a major double standard.
Let me read a couple of the comments. One from Christy S., "I am 49 and married someone seven years my junior. I`ve always attracted younger guys. Friends thought it was weird, but if the genders were reversed, I`m sure nothing would have ever been mentioned."
Tim S. writes, "I think people should stop living within the boundaries set by a long ago society. Whether it`s interracial or May/December, love is love." Thank you, Tim. Well said.
I`d love to hear from you on Facebook. You can also follow us on Twitter. For breaking entertainment news alerts, sign up for our Facebook and Twitter pages at CNN.COM/SHOWBIZTONIGHT.
Now, the SHOWBIZ lineup. This is what`s coming up on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT. Mackenzie Phillips back on "Oprah" today after the shocking claim she made that she and her father had sex. Tonight, the bombshell that Oprah dropped about whether the incest claims could be true. Chilling never-before-heard Michael Jackson`s recordings, Michael describing how his father used to allegedly beat him. And SHOWBIZ TONIGHT names the most provocative celebrity of the week. This is SHOWBIZ TONIGHT on HLN. Now the Showbiz News Ticker. More stories from the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT newsroom, making news right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAMMER: Now on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT, unbelievable, explosive new Michael Jackson tapes revealed. Just a short time ago on NBC`s "Dateline", Michael, in his own words, claims how his father brutally beat him.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JACKSON: He will make you strip nude first. He would oil you down. It would be a whole ritual. He would oil you down - so when the - when the flip of the - of the ironing cord hit you, which is, you know.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HAMMER: But why are these tapes coming out just now? Plus, why Michael slams Madonna. New Mackenzie Phillips incest claims. The "One Day at a Time" star back on "Oprah" just this afternoon. Tonight, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT with the bombshell from Oprah about whether Mackenzie`s incest allegations could be true. And brand new tonight, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT names the most provocative celebrity of the week. Plus more stories breaking from the Showbiz News Ticker. TV`s most provocative entertainment news show continues right now.
Welcome back to SHOWBIZ TONIGHT. It is 30 minutes past the hour. I`m A.J. Hammer broadcasting tonight and every night from New York City. And tonight, the explosive, brand new secret tapes of Michael Jackson telling all about his father allegedly beating him, and that is only the beginning. Here are the breaking developments.
On NBC`s "Dateline" tonight, just a short time ago, we heard dramatic new audio tapes of Michael Jackson talking in unbelievably graphic detail about being beaten by his father, Joe Jackson. And I can tell you, it is just mind blowing what he claims he went through. And on those tapes heard nationwide tonight on "Dateline," Michael describes how lonely his life became and why he had a bizarre relationship with mannequins - yes, I said mannequins. And there were also brand new remarkable revelations from these explosive tapes about how the King of Pop wanted to be buried not by himself but with children.
Joining me tonight in New York, Jean Casarez is our legal correspondent for "In Session" and in Hollywood tonight is Carlos Diaz who`s a correspondent for "Extra". I`ve got to say, these tapes we`re about to play for you - they`re just incredible. They are just some of the over 30 hours of interviews that were recorded between 1999 and 2001 with Jackson`s one time spiritual advisor, a guy named Rabbi Shmuley Boteach. Now, Jackson talks about what he called his father`s beating ritual when he was a child. The - the tapes were first aired on the "Today Show." You`ve got to listen to what they said.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JACKSON: He was rough. The way he would beat you is - you know - it was hard, you know? He would make you strip nude first. He would oil you down. It would be a whole ritual. He would oil you down. So when the - when the flip of the - of the ironing cord hit you, which is, you know, and it was just like me dying, and you had whips all over your face, your back, everywhere. And I always hear my mother like, "No, Joe. You`re going to kill them. You`re going to kill them. No!" And I would like - I was just like - I would just give up, like there was nothing I could do. And I hated him for it. I hated him.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HAMMER: It`s just eerie to listen to. SHOWBIZ TONIGHT did reach out to Michael Jackson`s father, Joe Jackson, today. A family spokesman said he wouldn`t even dignify these claims with a comment.
But, Carlos, you know, obviously we`ve heard these allegations before from Michael, but to actually hear Michael saying it himself in his own voice and words, it`s just stunning, isn`t it?
DIAZ: He wouldn`t even dignify these claims with a comment? Well, these claims are coming from your son, Joe Jackson. That`s what gets me. That`s what - that`s what you say when a tabloid says something about you. Joe Jackson, these claims are coming from your son in great detail. We`ve heard them before but never from Michael Jackson`s own mouth and in such great detail. When are we going to wake up and realize that Joe Jackson might not be the best guy in the world?
HAMMER: Yes. No kidding. Rabbi Boteach did say today that Michael gave him permission to tape these 30 hours of conversation. A lot of people have been wondering, you know, how these got out there. But Michael wanted to share these tapes with the world one day. That`s what he told Rabbi Boteach, and Boteach has now written a book based on these tapes.
Jean Casarez, what do these tapes that you heard today say to you about Michael`s relationship with his dad?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: I think it`s shocking. I think it`s shocking. You know, we have heard Michael say before that he was physically abused - remember when Oprah interviewed him? And very meekly to Oprah`s question, "Did he hit you?" "Yes." But we`ve never heard the specifics. If true, let`s look at the facts, it does show out and out abuse. It shows his mother knew about it. It shows his mother stood by when it was all happening. Those are the facts according to that tape.
HAMMER: Yes. And when you listen to, again, the detail that was given, certainly, Michael was a creative guy, but you have to wonder, can somebody really make stuff like that up?
Now, we all know Michael lived a very isolated life. Nothing, however, illustrates that more than this next bombshell I have to play to you. In the special that NBC "Dateline" aired tonight, Michael explains that he filled his life with mannequins when he felt the need to be around people. This is astonishing. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JACKSON: I knew something was wrong with me, and it was at that time. But I would - I needed someone. That`s probably why I had the mannequins, I would say. But I felt I needed people, someone, and I didn`t have - I was too shy to be around real people, so I - and I didn`t talk to them, it wasn`t like old ladies talking to plants. Like I always thought about, "Why do I have these?" I love them. It`s like real babies and kids, and people, but it makes me feel like I`m in a room with people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: You know, I`m listening to that and I`m just getting sadder and sadder.
Carlos, it really gives us such a sense of how lonely Michael was despite the fact that he had all these people around him and adulation from people around the world.
DIAZ: Yes. You know, A.J., just when you thought you heard it all, you`ll hear some stuff like that. I mean, it`s amazing. I - I think back to the Bad Tour, you know, when Michael was jogging with those troops and he had thousands of fans. They were - they were screaming for him and he had hundreds of troops around him protecting him from the fans. And here`s a guy who can`t be in a room with real people. I mean, it blows the mind.
HAMMER: Yes. And it`s wild especially because when this came up today, I remembered, oh yeah, the mannequins, and I started to wonder was that a real story or a fake story back then, and, obviously, Michael talking about it again in such great detail.
Now, when Michael was alive, obviously a lot of people thought he was eccentric and perhaps a little bizarre. Jean, what goes through your mind when you hear Michael describing this obsession with mannequins?
CASAREZ: Well, first of all, I think being shy, I don`t think that`s unusual for a performer. I think the majority of performers are actually shy people. That`s why they`re performers to begin with. And when I look at the mannequins, we now see the state of mind of Michael Jackson. It is now explained. And on "Oprah" this week, Oprah happened to mention that she has dolls around her house today because she didn`t have them when she was younger. So, what`s the difference, really?
HAMMER: Yes - no, you make an excellent point there. And as I mentioned, these tapes were recorded back between 1999 and 2001. That`s in between the time that he was accused of child molestation the first time in `93 and when he went on trial for molestation again in 2004.
Keeping that in mind, another bombshell from the secret tapes that aired tonight on "Dateline." Michael expressing his love for children, saying even when he died he wanted to be buried around them. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JACKSON: If it weren`t for children, I would choose death.
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SPIRITUAL ADVISOR: Do you feel like God gave you a certain healing power?
JACKSON: Yes. And I`ve seen children just shower all over me with love. They want to just touch me and hug me and just completely hold on and cry and not let go.
I want to be buried right where there`s children. I would feel safer that way. I want them next to me. I need their - their spirit.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HAMMER: It`s just unbelievable. He said if it weren`t for children, he would choose death. He wanted to be buried right where there were children.
Carlos, do you think what Michael said on these tapes perhaps will serve to help people understand Michael`s love for children or are people just going to find it disturbing?
DIAZ: You know, I think if you have a pre - preconceived notion about Michael Jackson, these tapes are going to solidify your already preconceived notion. If you believe Michael Jackson was a saint and that he was a beautiful person, then these tapes are going to help you believe that. If you believe he was a pedophile, you are going to go, well, look, he`s thought about kids all the time. It`s truly in the ear of the beholder.
HAMMER: Yes. Excellent point as well. Truly more shocking things were said by Michael on these tapes.
You do remember that touching speech that Madonna gave about Michael a couple of weeks ago at the MTV Video Music Awards?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADONNA: We went back to my house to watch a movie and we sat on the couch like two kids. And somewhere in the middle of the film, his hand snuck over and held mine. It felt like he was looking for a friend more than a romance, and I was happy to oblige him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: Well, Madonna went on to praise Michael. She called him a king. So, you`re going to be shocked when you hear what Michael was caught on tape calling Madonna. I`ll have that for you in just a moment.
Jean Cazares, Carlos Diaz - I do appreciate you being here tonight.
Also brand new bombshells from "One Day at a Time" star Mackenzie Phillips just days after shocking the world on "Oprah" with claims that she had a sexual relationship with her father. Mackenzie back on "Oprah" just this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: Just two days ago, we received an e-mail from a woman named Jessica Woods. Jessica`s father, Denny Doherty, was the other male singer in The Mamas and the Papas. Now, here are some of what Jessica wrote to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: We are going to reveal what Oprah had to say about whether Mackenzie`s incest allegations could actually be true.
And Mackenzie Phillips, well, she`s definitely had a provocative week, but is she the most provocative celebrity of the week? Tonight, I am rolling out something brand new we are going to do it every Friday night, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT names the most provocative celebrity of the week. This is SHOWBIZ TONIGHT on HLN. Time now for the Showbiz News Ticker. These are more stories from the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT newsroom, making news right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADONNA: He was so unique, so original, so rare, and there will never be anyone like him again. He was a king.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: A tribute fit for a king. That was Madonna. That was just a couple of weeks ago at the MTV Video Music Awards. She was paying tribute, of course, to Michael Jackson. So, why on earth did Michael Jackson slam Madonna in brand new tapes released today?
Welcome back to SHOWBIZ TONIGHT. I`m A.J. Hammer in New York. And right now, more of the explosive Michael Jackson tapes seen nationwide tonight on NBC`s "Dateline". These tapes recorded between 1999 and 2001 were first played on the "Today Show" this morning, and Michael Jackson reveals on these tapes how he really felt about his good friend, Madonna.
Joining me tonight from Hollywood, Ken Baker who is an executive news editor for "E!" and in New York, it`s Cooper Lawrence, who`s a psychologist and author of "The Cult of Celebrity".
So, Michael Jackson`s long time spiritual advisor, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach just released these tapes, thirty hours of interviews that he did with Michael Jackson in connection with his new book. Well, Jackson told Rabbi Boteach that he thought Madonna was not a nice person and she was actually jealous of him. Listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JACKSON: They admire you and know you`re wonderful and great but just - they`re jealous because they wish they were in your place, wish they were in your shoes. And `M` is one of them - Madonna. I hate to say that on tape. She`s not a nice - she doesn`t think I`m.
RABBI BOTEACH: She`s jealousy, she`s jealous.
JACKSON: Absolutely.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HAMMER: Well, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT did reach out to Madonna and a spokesperson tells us Madonna has very fond feelings for Michael Jackson and I don`t think anything in the book is going to change that.
Ken Baker, off to you, what do you make of Michael`s slam of Madonna?
KEN BAKER, EXECUTIVE NEWS EDITOR, E!: Well, I think, first of all, we`ve got to put in some context. I mean, Madonna had been close to Michael for some time and then in her own admission she says that they completely lost contact, that they did fall out, and even a couple of weeks ago when she stood up at the VMAs and gave that tribute to Michael Jackson, she confessed that she had left him. She was suggesting herself that maybe she was less than a good person with how she dealt with Michael. So, I don`t think this is something - that she denies that there was some rift, because apparently there was. So, I do think that Michael really did feel those things.
Now, as far as any repercussions, I mean, Madonna also said that, and I think all of us can agree, that Michael Jackson was in a lot of trouble and turmoil in his life, and even at that time that he spoke, when the rabbi recorded him, I don`t know if he was of totally sound mind. I`m not saying that Madonna is a great person or a bad person. I don`t know her personally, but what I do know is that Michael was very conflicted. He had isolated himself from a lot of people and he perceived a lot of enemies out there in the world, and some of them were his friends that he just shut out.
HAMMER: Yes. Now, then we do know that he did really isolate himself at that time and then, again, that was going back some 10 years.
Well, there are also brand new bombshells tonight about Mackenzie Phillips` incest claims against her late father John Phillips. Here is the big news breaking today. Mackenzie Phillips went back on "Oprah" today two days after making her incest claims. Mackenzie`s half sister Chynna Phillips also appeared on "Oprah" today to support Mackenzie.
But Oprah herself today revealed a new bombshell on the show and it has to do with whether or not the incest claims Mackenzie is making could be true. Oprah said today she received an e-mail from Jessica Woods whose dad was a member of The Mamas and the Papas with Mackenzie`s dad, John Phillips. Oprah revealed what Jessica said in that e-mail to her. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: She said I just watched your show with Mackenzie Phillips. Tears are running down my face. Everything she said is true. My dad told me the awful truth. He was horrified at what John had done and knew all of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: Wow! Cooper Lawrence, off to you. Does this give Mackenzie some more credibility here for all of those who keep going after her for revealing this stuff?
COOPER LAWRENCE, PSYCHOLOGIST AND AUTHOR: Yes, it absolutely gives her credibility, but it shouldn`t have to. The fact that she has these claims should be enough. Whether they`re true or not, she is bringing attention to a very important subject, because incest is one of those things that goes completely underreported. So even if it never happened to her - which I don`t believe. I think it did happen to her - somebody is - is at home saying to themselves, you know what? She came forward, I`m going to do the same.
HAMMER: Yes.
LAWRENCE: The bigger question though, A.J., is if this other person knew about this going on when she was a kid, why didn`t they step forward then? Why aren`t they trying to protect her when she was a child? I don`t really understand that.
HAMMER: Yes. And then some of the things that are being said is it was just a different time and there were a lot of drugs involved and who really knows what exactly what was going on. But there is so much debate about this going on. SHOWBIZ TONIGHT viewers are really divided on whether or not Mackenzie should have gone public with these claims of incest against her father.
For our SHOWBIZ TONIGHT Question of the Day, we ask on air and online "Mackenzie Phillips Criticized: Was it okay for her to go public with her incest claims?" And this is a pretty clear divide here, 56 percent saying yes, 44 percent no. The majority - they`re saying that she was right to come out, of course, with these claims.
Cooper, I want to go back to you on this, do you think that maybe the other 44 percent might - you know - come around a bit after they hear that this woman, Jessica Woods, is corroborating Mackenzie`s story?
LAWRENCE: You know, those 44 percent, we don`t have to prove anything to them, and I feel like how dare they come forward and say that it wasn`t appropriate for her? If one person is going hear the story and feel that they`re going to stop the circle of sexual abuse in their house, that`s all that matters. And those 44 percent obviously have had very nice lives and haven`t had to deal with incest, or any sort of molestation. It is a horrible situation and children tend not to report it.
So, if anything makes even one kid come forward, it should be - 100 percent of people should be supportive of Mackenzie Phillips for that reason alone.
HAMMER: Yes. I know. I hear what you are saying and I guess that with the debate we`re hearing, Cooper, is so many people are saying, yes, it may be helpful, but at what cost? But, from what you are saying, it doesn`t matter.
Ken Baker, Cooper Lawrence - thanks so much for being here, guys. I appreciate it.
Well, there is certainly no doubt that Mackenzie Phillips has had a controversial week, but is she the most provocative celebrity of the week? Don`t go anywhere because we are kicking off something brand new tonight on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT and you are in on it. We`re going to do this every Friday night. I have gotten your e-mails, your phone calls, also your Facebook comments, and coming on next, we will be naming the most provocative celebrity of the week.
Now the Showbiz News Ticker, more stories from the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT newsroom, making news right now.
It is time now for Making It Work. This is where the stars reveal their very personal secrets of how they`re able to make their relationships work. And as we know, doing that in Hollywood - hey, that`s not such an easy thing to do.
Tonight, it is singer Harry Connick, Jr., one of my favorite guys in the business. Harry has been married to his beautiful wife, Jill, for about 15 years now. They have three terrific daughters. And on "Oprah" just this afternoon, Harry revealed that the secret to making his marriage work - well, it`s actually a bunch of things.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRY CONNICK, JR., SINGER/ACTOR: I love my wife. You know what I mean? Like when we met 20 years ago and we - we just - we`re best friends and we communicate. It`s all the stuff that you are supposed to do. Like, you know, we talk a lot and we have children, which is a huge part of it, and we just - we love being with each other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: Harry Connick, Jr. really is a terrific guy and it always struck me that he has a terrific perspective on life and show business.
This is SHOWBIZ TONIGHT on HLN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAMMER: Thank you, Anthony and Charles. Welcome back to SHOWBIZ TONIGHT. I`m A.J. Hammer.
And right now I am kicking off something brand new. We`re going to be doing this each and every Friday night right here on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT. I am very excited. SHOWBIZ TONIGHT is naming the most provocative celebrity of the week. Now, one of the contenders clearly Michael Jackson after the breaking news today about taped conversations with Michael that reveal among other things how he says his father used to beat him with an electrical cord. And then, of course, there is Mackenzie Phillips, the former "One Day at a Time" star who told Oprah this week that she had a long time sexual affair with her famous father, John Phillips.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. PHILLIPS: I woke up that night from a blackout to find myself having sex with my own father. I don`t remember how it started or, thankfully, how it ended. Your father is supposed to protect you not to [bleep] you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAMMER: And because of what she is claiming, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT is naming Mackenzie Phillips the most provocative celebrity of the week.
Now, before we made our choice, we asked you who you thought should be the most provocative celebrity of the week and most of our fans on the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT Facebook page also thought it should be Mackenzie.
Pierre T. writing, "Mackenzie Phillips for sure. This is going to help others who are living in shame and resentment to help them deal with those types of problems."
Wendy L. adds, "Close second is K-Fed getting so fat he is now on `Celeb Fit Club`. He can afford to go to the gym! I`m just saying!"
So what do you think? Was Mackenzie Phillips the most provocative celebrity of the week? I`d love for you to tell me. You can e-mail me at showbiztonight@cnn.com. You can also call Showbiz On Call 1-888-SBT-BUZZ. And, of course, you can always post on the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT Facebook wall. To do that, head over to Facebook, type SHOWBIZ TONIGHT into the search box.
So just a short time ago, we revealed the results of our SHOWBIZ TONIGHT question of the day about Mackenzie Phillips and just moments ago, they crunched the final numbers and handed them to me. We asked, "Mackenzie Phillips Criticized: Was it okay for her to go public with her incest claims?" Fifty-six percent of you said yes, 44 percent no.
Some of the e-mails we got included this from James in North Carolina - "Get help privately. Going public is to sell books." We also heard from Deborah in Canada who says, "Mackenzie Phillips is a brave woman to come out of hiding the secret of incest, even braver when you consider that there are always people willing to say you are a liar."
That is it for SHOWBIZ TONIGHT. Thank you so much for watching. I`m A.J. Hammer in New York. You could always catch SHOWBIZ TONIGHT on the Elevens, 11:00 PM Eastern and Pacific, and weekday mornings 11:00 AM Eastern here on HLN.
END
