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CNN Live Event/Special
Teacher Murder Trial: The Cross-Examination of Nathaniel Brazill, Part V
Aired May 09, 2001 - 10:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. We're going to go back to that courtroom in West Palm Beach, Florida, where Nathaniel Brazill is now just taking the stand again. We're going to resume proceedings there in just about a minute or so. Our Mark Potter has been keeping watch outside this courtroom. Mark, what can you tell us about what we've seen so far?
MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's been a very dramatic give-and-take between the prosecutor, Marc Shiner, and the witness, Nathaniel Brazill. A much different scene today from what we saw yesterday, when Nathaniel was questioned by his own attorney, who led him through the scenarios, who gently questioned him, who helped him along. This prosecutor is doing anything but.
He is attacking his statements, pointing out inconsistencies, making the point that Nathaniel seems to have a convenient memory. He can remember things that are helpful and seems to have forgotten things that are not. And this is Marc Shiner again in front of Nathaniel Brazill. Let's listen in as the testimony, the give-and- take between the prosecutor and Nathaniel Brazill, continues.
MARC SHINER, PROSECUTOR: Is that why you told him that?
NATHANIEL BRAZILL, DEFENDANT: Yes. You mean by "justify" as in show?
SHINER: You wanted them to understand that you had a reason, that this wasn't -- you had a physical reason, that he was trying to attack you first.
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: Did he attack you?
BRAZILL: No, sir.
SHINER: Did he try to hurt you?
BRAZILL: No, sir.
SHINER: Did he try to kill you?
BRAZILL: No, sir. SHINER: Did he pose any threat to you whatsoever?
BRAZILL: No, sir.
SHINER: How much taller was he than you last year, Nate Brazill?
BRAZILL: I do not know.
SHINER: Was he taller than me?
BRAZILL: I think so. I'm not sure.
SHINER: Was Barry Grunow about 6 feet 3 inches?
BRAZILL: I think so, somewhere around there.
SHINER: A tall lanky man?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: Last year, how tall were you?
BRAZILL: I was about 5 feet 2 inches, 5 feet 4 inches.
SHINER: How tall are you today?
BRAZILL: I don't know.
SHINER: A couple inches taller?
BRAZILL: Maybe.
SHINER: Do you think you're the same size as last year?
BRAZILL: I don't know.
SHINER: Did you have to point up the gun right here, high, in order to point it at the man's head, skull or brain?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: Can you share why you had to point the gun at this man's brain if you didn't want to kill him?
BRAZILL: What do you mean?
SHINER: Can you tell us why you pointed the gun at the man's brain if you didn't want to kill him?
BRAZILL: I was just pointing the gun.
SHINER: Why did you point the gun at Barry?
BRAZILL: I don't know.
SHINER: Why didn't you hold it at your side and say something like "I've got a gun -- you'd better watch out"?
BRAZILL: I don't know.
SHINER: Because you wanted to kill him.
BRAZILL: No, sir.
SHINER: He wasn't taking you serious, so you pulled the slide back?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: And you knew that would put a bullet in the chamber, right?
BRAZILL: Hopefully, he would see the slide being pulled back and think it was a real gun.
SHINER: Because you're in control?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: You're the boss at that time?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: It's not a police maneuver, is it?
BRAZILL: The police already have their guns loaded.
SHINER: You weren't acting like a policeman, were you?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: You weren't play-acting or anything like that, were you?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: You didn't do this because you saw this on the television set, did you?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: Or a movie?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: This was real life.
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: And you knew it?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: You knew the seriousness of this? BRAZILL: Somewhat, yes.
SHINER: You were 13 years old, but you understood that if you pulled the trigger and shot another human being, especially in the brain, he would die.
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: You knew that, right?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: You knew that probably since you were six years old, right?
BRAZILL: I don't know how old I was when I knew that.
SHINER: Seven years old?
BRAZILL: I'm not sure.
SHINER: Ten years old?
BRAZILL: I don't know.
SHINER: Did you know that when you were 10 years old, that if somebody shoots you, or if you shoot them, with a gun, they could die?
BRAZILL: By 10 years old, I think I did know that.
SHINER: So you knew that for at least three years?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: And you did it anyway?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: You said, yesterday, that you wanted to talk to the girls in private.
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: And he wouldn't let you.
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: And then you used some type of -- do you know what an analogy is?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: You likened it to something. Correct me if I'm wrong. In response to your attorney's questions, you told all of us that it was like this: If you have $1 million, and I put a gun on you, you'll give me the $1 million. Do you remember saying that? BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: It was just like that, right?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: That's the way you feel?
BRAZILL: Yes. That's the way I thought it to be.
SHINER: That's the way you felt back on May 26, 2000.
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: If you have a gun, and someone has something you want, you point it at them, and you're going to get what you want.
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: And if they don't give it to you, you're going to kill them.
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: You're mad.
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: You're angry at them.
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: You weren't?
BRAZILL: Who are you referring to?
SHINER: Mr. Grunow.
BRAZILL: When he told me no, that's when I began to get angry.
SHINER: That's when you pulled the slide back?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: And then you shot him?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: You didn't shoot him?
BRAZILL: When I pulled the slide back, I told him to get out of the way.
SHINER: And he didn't do that.
BRAZILL: No, and that's when the gun went off. SHINER: Nathaniel Brazill pulled the trigger, didn't he?
BRAZILL: Unintentionally, yes.
SHINER: That's for someone else to decide, don't you think?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: You claim it was unintentionally.
BRAZILL: I know it was unintentionally.
SHINER: You want to believe that, don't you?
BRAZILL: I know it was.
SHINER: How? How?
BRAZILL: What do you mean?
SHINER: Do you want to see the gun again? Can you show us how you unintentionally killed Mr. Grunow? Can you share with us or explain this to us? Can you fill us in on how this unintentionally went off?
BRAZILL: I didn't try to pull the trigger.
SHINER: Did it go off by itself?
BRAZILL: No, it did not.
SHINER: Did you pull the trigger?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: Did anyone make you pull the trigger?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: Was anyone pushing your finger back?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: You play the tuba, don't you?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: Clarinet, too, or trumpet?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: You're pretty dexterous with your fingers. You've got a lot of movements in them, don't you?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: That's important when you play a band instrument, isn't it?
BRAZILL: Some of them.
SHINER: You've got to use your brain?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: You've got to read notes?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: And you have to have control of your fingers. Otherwise, the notes aren't going to come out right.
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: Do you want to see the gun again?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: Would that help you explain to us how this went off unintentionally, in your words, or can you show us or explain how it unintentionally fired, hit Mr. Grunow, and killed him?
BRAZILL: I did not try to pull the trigger.
SHINER: Who did?
BRAZILL: It wasn't I who did.
SHINER: Well, if you didn't pull the trigger, who did?
BRAZILL: I said I did not try to pull the trigger, sir.
SHINER: It went off by itself?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: Then how did it go off? Can you show us?
BRAZILL: I pulled the trigger, but I didn't try to. That was an accident. Mr. Grunow was one of my friends.
SHINER: You want it to be an accident, don't you?
BRAZILL: It was an accident.
SHINER: You don't want anyone to believe you were angry enough to kill another human being, do you?
BRAZILL: I was not.
SHINER: Can you show us how you did it?
BRAZILL: What do you mean by "show"?
SHINER: Can you show us how the -- were you shaking enough that the trigger went off?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: How could it have went off accidentally? Help us understand, Nate Brazill.
BRAZILL: I was holding the gun in my hand. As I was holding the gun, right after he said Don't point that at me, the gun went off.
SHINER: How did it go off? That's what I can't understand. How?
BRAZILL: I pulled the trigger, but I did not intentionally pull the trigger.
SHINER: OK, you pulled the slide back intentionally?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: Pointed it at the man's head intentionally?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: Pulled it out of your pocket intentionally?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: You knew there were bullets in there that you put in there intentionally?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: Prior to pulling the trigger, everything was intentional.
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: But the actual act of pulling the trigger, you want us to believe, was unintentional?
BRAZILL: It was not -- it was unintentional.
SHINER: And what's your definition of "unintentional"?
BRAZILL: I didn't try to do it.
SHINER: OK, is that what you want to believe?
BRAZILL: That's what I believe.
SHINER: OK, how did you get such a perfect shot with such a piece-of-junk gun?
BRAZILL: I don't know.
SHINER: How did you shoot exactly where you were aiming, Nate Brazill, if your hands were shaking?
BRAZILL: I don't know.
SHINER: You're a pretty good shot?
BRAZILL: I assume so.
SHINER: Not for Mr. Grunow?
BRAZILL: Say that again.
SHINER: It wasn't a god shot for him?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: And now it's not a good shot for you.
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: That was your target, right?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: That was your mission: to kill Mr. Grunow, at that the moment.
BRAZILL: No, sir.
SHINER: You hit your target, didn't you, Nate?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: You got a bullseye, right between his eyes.
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: Where were you aiming, Nate Brazill?
BRAZILL: I was aiming at his head.
SHINER: Where did you hit him, Nate Brazill?
BRAZILL: In the head.
SHINER: How many times did you pull the trigger?
BRAZILL: Once.
SHINER: It only took one time to complete that mission, right?
BRAZILL: I had no mission.
SHINER: Did he take you seriously after you shot him?
ROBERT UDELL, ATTORNEY FOR NATHANIEL BRAZILL: Objection.
JUDGE RICHARD WENNET, 15TH CIRCUIT COURT: Sustained.
SHINER: Was he still laughing at you when he fell to the ground?
UDELL: Objection -- relevance.
WENNET: Sustained.
SHINER: What did Mr. Grunow do when he fell to the ground, Nate Brazill?
Did you hear the question?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: Do you want me to repeat it?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: What did Mr. Grunow do when he fell to the ground, Nate Brazill?
BRAZILL: What do you think he did?
SHINER: What did you do after he fell to the ground?
BRAZILL: I ran.
SHINER: Why?
BRAZILL: Because I was scared.
SHINER: Because you knew you'd be all over the news?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: After he fell down, you still had the gun pointed at him, didn't you?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: You trained it on him as he was falling. You followed his path.
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: Standing here like a police officer killing a mad dog. You followed him down.
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: You had the gun pointed right at him again. Was that to make sure he wouldn't get up?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: To make sure that he wasn't going to laugh at you anymore?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: Or prevent you from seeing your friends?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: Why did you have the gun pointed at him when he was on the floor?
BRAZILL: I don't know what was going on at that time.
SHINER: You can't remember? You can't remember?
BRAZILL: What do you mean?
As he was falling to the ground, my hands were going down too. I was not intentionally pointing it at him when he was falling.
SHINER: That was unintentional, too, Nate Brazill?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: Did you unintentionally point the gun at Mr. James when he came to find out -- to help his fellow teacher?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: Was that intentional?
BRAZILL: Yes, I thought Mr. James was going to attack me.
SHINER: Just like Mr. Grunow attacked you.
BRAZILL: No, Mr. Grunow did not attack me.
SHINER: Did Mr. James attack you?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: Did you intentionally point the gun at him?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: Did you intentionally make the conscious choice, the decision to keep your finger off of the trigger when you pointed it at Mr. James?
BRAZILL: By that time, my finger had already came off of the trigger.
SHINER: And you knew that, didn't you?
BRAZILL: What do you mean?
SHINER: You knew you didn't have your finger on the trigger when you pointed it at Mr. James.
BRAZILL: I am not quite sure.
SHINER: Do you remember telling the police officers that, "When I pointed the gun at Mr. James, my finger was not near the trigger"?
BRAZILL: I think so.
SHINER: That was your choice, right?
BRAZILL: I'm not sure.
SHINER: You had no reason to want to kill Mr. James, right?
BRAZILL: Say it again?
SHINER: You would have no reason to want to kill Mr. James, right?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: He didn't give you an F, did he?
BRAZILL: Not that I know of.
SHINER: He didn't prevent you from seeing the girls that you wanted to go out with, did he?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: He wasn't laughing at you, was he?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: He didn't suspend you from school, did he?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: And when you walked out of the police department that night, you told us yesterday that you hoped to fool them so they wouldn't ask you any more questions. And you said, "Me no habla Ingles, me no speak English." Remember saying that?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: Are you hoping to fool all of here today?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: Are you hoping I won't ask you any more questions?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: Nothing further.
WENNET: Thank you, Mr. Shiner. Redirect examination. Mr. Udell?
UDELL: You heard Mr. Spann say the other day that you told him that you went to school for the purpose of "f"-ing up the school, correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: Let me ask you about that. How many kids could you have shot on your way to see Mr. Grunow, if you wanted to "f" up the school
BRAZILL: There were five bullets in the gun.
UDELL: OK, and did you use -- were there any other shots but that one?
BRAZILL: No.
UDELL: As you were pointing the gun at Mr. Grunow, if you wanted to "f" up the school, was Dinora there? Right in gun sight, if you wanted to kill someone else, could you have done so?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: How about Mr. James?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: You had the gun pointed at him, correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: If you wanted to "f" up the school, could you have shot him with ease?
BRAZILL: I assume so.
UDELL: OK. You didn't do so, did you?
BRAZILL: No.
UDELL: I want to ask you about that, about Mr. Grunow. As he's lying on the ground, if you really wanted to make sure that he was dead, you could have shot him, two, three, four, and five times.
BRAZILL: Say it again?
UDELL: Mr. Shiner made a big deal of the fact that apparently he believes your arm went down and followed Mr. Grunow, who was on the ground. Assuming that's true -- assuming you had the gun pointing at him on the ground, anything prevent you from pulling the trigger again?
BRAZILL: Not that I know of.
UDELL: You could have pulled it again, and again, and again to make sure he was dead, if you wanted to do, correct? BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: You didn't do that, did you?
BRAZILL: No.
UDELL: In fact, at the time -- let me ask you a question. If you went there with the intention of assuring Mr. Grunow's death, did you point it at his head or his body?
BRAZILL: Uh...
UDELL: What do they teach you in those -- do you read any of the law enforcement magazines?
BRAZILL: No.
UDELL: You don't?
BRAZILL: No.
UDELL: Well, I'll tell you. I'm trying to follow up on one other thing. You were asked about -- law enforcement asked you, to page 20. I want to make sure we clarify what was said here.
You were asked to page 20 about, were you mad, and you said, "I was already mad from being suspended."
You said, "I was mad from being suspended," correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: And the question was for Mr. Hinds, and you said yes, correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: And then you said, "Um, is that why...
The question was, "OK, is that why you got the gun?" And you said yes, right?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: You were then asked, "You were going to go back and use it on who?" Correct? That's what they asked you.
BRAZILL: I think so. I'm not sure.
UDELL: And you said, "I really wasn't going to use it. I was just, like, carrying it."
BRAZILL: I think that's what it says.
UDELL: OK. You were asked to clarify why you had the gun and you said, "There was no plan," correct? BRAZILL: I think so, yes.
UDELL: OK. And on page 22, they get back to it again, and they asked, "So what was your reason for bringing it to school today, this afternoon?"
And you said, "I was just mad." Correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: Then you said, OK, did you plan on -- you were asked, "Did you plan on shooting Mr. Hinds for suspending you?" Correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: And what did you say?
BRAZILL: I don't know.
UDELL: Well, you said no, correct?
BRAZILL: I am not sure what it says.
UDELL: Whatever's in transcript is correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: And then you were asked, "Did you plan on shooting Mr. Grunow?" Correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: And you said no, correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: And then you were asked, "Did you plan on shooting anybody?" Correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: And you said, "Um, me and Mr. Grunow were like good friends." Correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: Because that was the truth, correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: Now, let me ask you about this. Here you are being questioned by law enforcement and they asked you if you were mad. And did you freely concede that?
BRAZILL: What do you mean?
UDELL: Did you admit to them, yes, you were mad.
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: If you wanted to lie to the police you would have said: I wasn't mad at anybody -- correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: But in fact, you were.
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: And that's why you said that, because it's the truth, correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: And you were questioned about the throwaway question from Marshall, how while you were in there Marshall showed up, correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: Stepdad, correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: And the suggestion was made that you didn't know there was a camera, and that you really told the truth in response to a question from Marshall. Remember being asked about that?
BRAZILL: What question?
UDELL: Well, remember he asked you about -- that Marshall said to you, "You didn't like him," question mark. Was it -- was he -- did you like him, or you didn't like him? Remember being asked that question?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: And in fact, you didn't say you didn't like him. What you said, "He was an all right teacher," correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: You never said you didn't like -- disliked any of these people?
BRAZILL: No.
UDELL: Do you even know which teacher he was talking about, or whether he got it wrong? Who was a teacher and who was a principal?
BRAZILL: I think so.
UDELL: OK. When this question was asked, do you know which person Marshall was even referring to? BRAZILL: No.
UDELL: The bottom line is, you told him he was an all right teacher, correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: And Mr. Grunow was an all right teacher.
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: One of your favorites?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: In fact, you were asked -- the conversation continues on page 37, and you were asked, "You didn't like that teacher?" Correct?
BRAZILL: I think so, yes.
UDELL: And you said, "Yeah, I liked him." Correct?
BRAZILL: I think so, yes.
UDELL: Because you did like him?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: Nathaniel, you realize that nobody is on trial here today but you?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: You understand the gun's not on trial, right?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: The gun -- nobody caused that trigger to be pulled but you, correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: You're solely responsible for the death of Mr. Grunow, you agree on that?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: You knew taking the gun was wrong?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: You knew bringing the gun to school was wrong?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: You now know that pointing the gun at Mr. Grunow was wrong?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: Did you intend to shoot Mr. Grunow?
BRAZILL: No.
UDELL: Are you sorry you shot Mr. Grunow?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: I want to go back to the statement you gave to police. Apparently, you didn't know that he was dead for the first four hours, correct?
BRAZILL: No.
UDELL: Nobody told you, correct?
BRAZILL: No.
UDELL: And then finally the officer asked you, "Do you know what happened to Mr. Grunow?" Correct?
BRAZILL: I think yes.
UDELL: And you said, "No, tell me." Correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: And then he told you he had died, correct?
BRAZILL: Yes.
UDELL: Were you happy or did you break down crying?
BRAZILL: I cried.
UDELL: Why did you cry?
BRAZILL: Because that was one of my friends that I had killed.
UDELL: Nothing further, judge.
WENNET: Thank you, Mr. Udell.
(OFF MIKE)
WENNET: All right. Certainly.
UDELL: I've got a matter that I need to take outside of the presence of the jury. It'll take two minutes.
WENNET: Fine. Ladies and gentlemen, why don't you come back, say, at 10 after? Is that convenient, gentlemen, 10 minutes? You want more time than that? Ten minutes. Are you all comfortable with the arrangement here?
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Once again, you've been watching the trial of 14-year-old Nathaniel Brazill as he faces cross-examination today. He's the 14-year-old charged with first-degree murder, accused of gunning down his schoolteacher.
And probably the second most compelling part of this trial, Nathaniel Brazill finally showing emotion, breaking down in the courtroom. We're going to bring in our Mark Potter, who has also been following this.
Mark, kind of surprising. He had been holding up and not really showing any emotion, but when it came down to the questions with regard to his teacher actually being shot and falling to the ground, he started to show emotion.
MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he did. It's interesting that it also happened in the prosecution's cross-examination, not in the defense case. It would seem that it would be beneficial for the defense to show the jury that this man, this young man, is emotional and caring and remorseful. It never happened in the defense case. It happened during the prosecution's cross-examination.
And it was when he was asked to describe what happened when Mr. Grunow, his teacher, fell to the ground. He was asked what he did when that happened. He said he ran. He was scared.
And he was later then asked, "Why did you continue to point the gun downward at Mr. Grunow as he lay on the floor?" And Nathaniel Brazill could not explain that. He said that he was not -- he did not intend to kill the teacher, the point the prosecution makes through that questioning is that he aimed the gun, he fired at the teacher, and then tracked Mr. Grunow to the ground and continued to point at him because it was an intentional shooting. And that's the core argument in this trial. Was this an accident or was this intentional?
Nathaniel also said in another dramatic moment, if you recall, a little bit earlier that he pulled the trigger. But he said, "I didn't intend to pull it." And then he was asked, "Did you pull that slide back intentionally?" "Yes." "Did you point it at him intentionally?" "Yes." "Did you carry it intentionally?" "Yes." "But you didn't fire it intentionally?" "No." And again, the prosecution with that trying to show that everything was intentional, including the shooting, Nathaniel holding firm to his argument that the shooting itself, the firing of the trigger which he couldn't explain -- it just happened, in his words -- was accidental.
He could not replicate it on the stand. He said he didn't know how it happened. He knows he pulled the trigger. But he doesn't know why or how. And that's where it was left for the jury to sort out when the case goes to them maybe tomorrow, more likely Friday. We will just have to see how much time is left in the case. They may be discussing that now in the courtroom, how much time is left in this case.
PHILLIPS: Mark, some other points that were brought up, Marc Shiner, prosecuting attorney, it seemed like trying he was trying to set up, formulate some questions to prove that this wasn't an act of defense. He was asking Nathaniel Brazill, is he taller than you, is he bigger than you, did he threaten you, did he attack you? Was he trying to kind of dispel the theory that maybe this was an act of defense on the behalf of Nathaniel Brazill?
POTTER: Yes. And he was also trying to make the point that Nathaniel simply had no right to do this, that there was no reason to do this except for the fact that he was angry. And he kept making the point that he was angry after being thrown out of school, and that he remained angry. He came back to school a short time later, went right to Mr. Grunow's class. Mr. Grunow did not obey his demands to see the two girls he wanted to see out in the hallway. And that was it.
And he aimed the gun upward so that he pointed directly at his head. And then he fired. It's all in the interpretation. The defense says that it was a tragic mistake for which Nathaniel is now very sorry. But it was that, a mistake. The prosecution says all the evidence seems to point to it being intentional.
And, again, it will have to -- it will be a tough one for the jury to sort out. They've got a lot of things to contemplate. They have the videotape, which they saw of the shooting. They have the videotaped statement that Nathaniel gave police in a highly unusual case, a murder case, an adult trial. They now have the witness and the cross-examination and the redirect of a 14-year-old, who committed a crime, according to the prosecution, for first-degree murder when he was 13. Lots of things to deal with.
And one thing about this case, I must say it has been a fairly cleanly argued trial. There hasn't been a lot of argument between the lawyers. There hasn't been a lot of disagreement. It's just the presentation of argument and information for the jury now to sort out.
It's been unlike other trials that we've seen where there's been lots of contention between the lawyers, lots of argument. That did not happen in this case, but lots of drama. Back to you.
PHILLIPS: All right, Mark Potter, we're going to ask you to stand by. We believe that Nathaniel Brazill's testimony has wrapped up. We are continuing to follow this trial. We will update you and let you know what is happening.
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