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CNN Live Event/Special
Rink Rage Trial: Defendant Takes Stand
Aired January 09, 2002 - 14:05 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: We have had live coverage this morning of hockey dad, so-called hockey dad Thomas Junta who testified in his own defense last hour. He is now back on the stand. He is now being cross-examined by the prosecution. Let's listen in.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
SHEILA CALKINS, PROSECUTOR: That is a scratch also?
THOMAS JUNTA, DEFENDANT: Yes.
CALKINS: And the inside of your arm, bicep area, also a scratch?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: Now, when you were shown this photograph, Mr. Junta, you said that there was some marks down around your ankles from this incident. Could you just point to the area of your ankle that you are referring to as an injury that you received from this incident?
JUNTA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
CALKINS: Down that area. Is it fair to say your right ankle area?
JUNTA: Yes, I guess.
CALKINS: Does that show the area that you are talking about?
JUNTA: Move it up a little, maybe. Right around there.
CALKINS: Right there?
JUNTA: Yes. Bruises, I guess.
CALKINS: That's a bruise?
JUNTA: No. The thing above it, the cut. That's an old cut.
CALKINS: No, but right here, you are saying it's a bruise?
JUNTA: Kind of look likes bruises.
CALKINS: Kind of like -- if I showed you the photo, Mr. Junta, it might be easier for you to see. Is that a bruise or is that like a freckle or a mole? Can you tell?
JUNTA: I really can't tell now, no.
CALKINS: OK. So you are not sure whether or not that is an injury that you received from a fight?
JUNTA: It's possible, yes.
CALKINS: Now, you were shown this photograph, I believe that this was the view that you were shown, Mr. Junta, with regard to your hands. And you said that there were no injuries from the fight, no swelling or no marks or anything from the fight?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: No? What is that on your right knuckle, Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: That's what Trooper Burke (ph) said was blood.
CALKINS: OK. And it's fair to say that that's an abrasion or a cut, scratch?
JUNTA: No. It's just blood.
CALKINS: Just blood.
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: There's no injury from the blood?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: No?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: Is it fair to say, Mr. Junta, that your hands were clean at that point?
JUNTA: Clean?
CALKINS: Mm-hmm.
JUNTA: Except for that amount, yes, I guess.
CALKINS: OK. So the blood that is on your knuckle right there is not your blood?
JUNTA: Probably not, no.
CALKINS: Probably not. You don't recall whether it's your blood?
JUNTA: I wasn't bleeding, so, no.
CALKINS: You weren't bleeding. So it's fair to say that that would be Mr. Costin's blood on your right knuckle?
JUNTA: Probably, yes.
CALKINS: Another -- is that easier to see? That's just the blood of Mr. Costin. It's not your blood?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to object, your honor, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Mr. Costin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overruled, Mr. Hines (ph).
CALKINS: Was there anybody else you punched that day, Mr. Junta? You didn't punch anybody else that day?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: And it's fair to say that when you stood up, Mr. Costin had blood on his facial area, didn't he?
JUNTA: On his nose.
CALKINS: On his nose?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: Now this -- I believe were you shown this view here, Mr. Junta.
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And you said that you thought that maybe that area on your right hand, the inside of your hand, might be an injury?
JUNTA: Yes. It kind of looked like...
CALKINS: Yes. Does that help you at all to tell whether or not -- is that an injury, Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: No, it's just a callous.
CALKINS: Just a callous?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And that wasn't something you received on the day of this fight, was it?
JUNTA: I don't know. It was probably from work.
CALKINS: Now, Mr. Junta, does this photograph show where you stepped over to toward looker room one?
JUNTA: It was probably more over that way.
CALKINS: A little bit more over to the left?
JUNTA: Basically, generally is -- yes, pretty much.
CALKINS: How much further over to the left did you step?
JUNTA: Not much. You could probably see like my front, probably.
CALKINS: In other words, if you were standing in that photo, you might be able to see the front of your jacket?
JUNTA: Yes, probably. Probably, yes.
CALKINS: OK. And is it fair to say that you might be able to see your jacket maybe like right here, right at the line?
JUNTA: It's possible, yes.
CALKINS: How far were you from the door of locker room one? A couple of feet?
JUNTA: Probably a couple feet. Yes.
CALKINS: A couple of feet. Mr. Junta, does this photograph depict where you had Mr. Costin up against the wall?
JUNTA: To the right, yes.
CALKINS: The right of the photo?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: OK. So it's fair to say that wall just as you enter the alcove?
JUNTA: It's like around the alcove. It goes around like this. That's the inside of it, yes.
CALKINS: It does show the inside of that wall, right, right here?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And that's where you had Mr. Costin up against the wall?
JUNTA: That's where we ended up, yes.
CALKINS: When were you holding him under his armpit?
JUNTA: No. I never had him under his armpit.
CALKINS: You never had him underneath his armpit?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: Holding him, fair to say, that maybe up around the shoulder areas, holding him up against the wall? JUNTA: Both had each other.
CALKINS: And that's when Mr. Costin was kind of slouching or sliding down the wall?
JUNTA: Yes, after he stepped on my foot.
CALKINS: I can't hear you, Mr. Junta.
JUNTA: Yes, after he stepped on my foot.
CALKINS: Mike, could you turn up the mike?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to speak up, sir. (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CALKINS: Thank you. So that's when he -- you had him up against the wall when he was sliding down the wall?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: Mr. Junta, does this photograph depict where you entered the rink and where you first saw Mr. Costin?
JUNTA: Before the second fight?
CALKINS: No, not before the second fight. The -- when you were -- actually, it is before the second fight. When you walked into the rink and you first saw Mr. Costin, before the second fight, does that photograph show where you saw him?
JUNTA: Yes, kind of.
CALKINS: Can you get up and point to -- do we have the laser pointer now?
JUNTA: This thing?
CALKINS: Yes. You just have to touch the black circle, Mr. Junta, when you point.
JUNTA: It coming over there. We went around like this and fought around that area there.
CALKINS: OK. And you are pointing to the area in...
JUNTA: Possible in between, more to this side right here at that door, but up in here.
CALKINS: OK. Now -- and you were coming through which door, the far door?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: So the first time you saw him, he was right here? Is that where you pointed to?
JUNTA: Yes, probably right around there. Yes.
CALKINS: OK. Fair to say, just for the record purposes, right in front of the middle of the two doors?
JUNTA: Close to that side, a little bit more -- right about there.
CALKINS: Right about here? OK. Does this photograph, Mr. Junta, depict what you said -- you said that you guys -- the two of you went up against a wall?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: Could you just point to the wall that you went up against.
JUNTA: Well, it's right there but the bucket wasn't there. That got knocked all out of way.
CALKINS: OK. So the wall is the wall between the last door and the snack bar?
JUNTA: Yes, right in the middle there.
CALKINS: And you are saying that the bucket got knocked over during the incident?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: When you -- when you entered the rink after this second -- before the second incident when -- were you told to leave the rink, Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: Before the second, after the first?
CALKINS: I'm sorry. Let me go back and I'll -- I'll withdraw that question. At the end of the first incidents, were you told to leave the ring?
JUNTA: No I was not.
CALKINS: You don't remember Mrs. Blanchard (ph) saying to you, you need to leave the rink?
JUNTA: No, not at all.
CALKINS: Now, so, you left on your own?
JUNTA: After I told the boys to come on, yes.
CALKINS: And you went outside, and you are standing outside and you said that Garrett was with you?
JUNTA: Yes, Garrett was shortly behind me.
CALKINS: And at some point, you decided to go back in to check on the other kids?
JUNTA: Yes, my son and Travis.
CALKINS: Now, when you entered back through the doors, did you stop in the office to check to see if anyone was in there?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: And, you knew Mr. Costin was still in there because you didn't see him leave, isn't that right?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: All right. And you knew that his kids were still in there because you didn't see any of them leave?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And you knew that there had just been an altercation between the two of you, obviously?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: But you were going back into the rink after the first altercation, knowing that Mr. Costin was still in there?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And you didn't stop at the office to check to see whether or not you could you send somebody else into the rink to check on your kids?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: And you didn't step in the pro shop to see whether maybe somebody would be able to go in and check on your kids?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: And at this point, Mr. Junta, as far as you knew, your kids were still in the locker room getting undressed, isn't that right?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And I think you told the police that your son was usually slow.
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: He was usually one of the last ones out of the locater room?
JUNTA: Mm-hmm.
CALKINS: And you had only been outside for approximately a minute or two, isn't that right?
JUNTA: A minute or two, yes.
CALKINS: Now, when you got to the area of the third office on your right, right before you enter the rink, Nancy Blanchard (ph), you saw her, didn't you?
JUNTA: Towards the doors?
CALKINS: Let me see if this will help you, Mr. Junta. This is the first office, right...
JUNTA: That's the office, yes.
CALKINS: And you didn't stop there to see if somebody was there that could go in and check on your kids and bring them out?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: And you didn't check here in the pro shop to see if someone was working to see if someone could go in and check on your kids and bring them out for you?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: And you didn't stop at this third office, right?
JUNTA: Mm-hmm. No.
CALKINS: And that's where you saw -- you need to answer yes or no.
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: OK. And that's where you saw Mrs. Blanchard, out in front of that, between the pro shop and the third office, isn't that right?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: Where did you see her?
JUNTA: She was right inside the double doors, as you go in again, right outside like the office area.
CALKINS: Which office area? Here is an office here?
JUNTA: That office.
CALKINS: So she was right outside this office when you saw her?
JUNTA: Probably. If you see the double doors again, I would say like the third door over from me.
CALKINS: Is it anywhere depicted in this photograph?
JUNTA: The doors, no.
CALKINS: Did you see her in the lobby?
JUNTA: Yes, it was the lobby but on that side of the doors.
CALKINS: Does this depict it at all?
JUNTA: It shows a little better but she was over further to the right.
CALKINS: OK. So what you are saying then is that she was over here?
JUNTA: Yes, just about -- you know, right where your finger is.
CALKINS: So she was way over here on the second set of doors leading outside?
JUNTA: Probably the third door, like -- one, two, three, that door.
CALKINS: And that's where she was when she stopped you and said that you -- you -- she didn't want you to come back in?
JUNTA: That's when she said something, but I'm not sure what it was.
CALKINS: Now you said you weren't sure what she said because you weren't paying attention to her?
JUNTA: I was just walking, yes.
CALKINS: But you didn't stop and say, excuse me, I didn't hear you?
JUNTA: No. What I did was turn my head and said I'm only going in for my boys.
CALKINS: OK. And she said something to you?
JUNTA: Yes, but I was trying to walk.
CALKINS: And you didn't stop and talk to her and see what she was saying?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: OK. So you completely ignored her and kept walking into the ring?
JUNTA: Basically.
CALKINS: Basically. And how, Mr. Junta, did Mrs. Blanchard get this bruise on her arm when you walked by her?
JUNTA: I have no idea. CALKINS: You have no idea?
JUNTA: None.
CALKINS: But today, Mr. Junta, you are saying that you remember her trying to stop you from going into the rink and talking to you. You do remember that?
JUNTA: I remember her speaking to me, yes.
CALKINS: OK. And isn't it fair to say that when you spoke with the police on July 5 during your interview, you told them that you didn't remember her stopping you and trying to talk to you?
JUNTA: I think I remember I said our conversation -- they said conversation with someone. I said no conversation with anybody.
CALKINS: Well, what you said, Mr. Junta, is that you are not sure. You might have, but you weren't sure, that you didn't think that there was anything. You didn't think that anybody stopped you, isn't that what you said?
JUNTA: I don't know the exact words.
CALKINS: I will find the page for you. Page 20, line 14 -- do you have a copy with you, Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: Page 14, do you remember having a conversation -- line 14 -- do you remember having a conversation...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
CALKINS: Do you remember having a conversation with after the first fight. You walk outside and then you come back inside. You remember having a conversation with someone as you were walking back in. No. A woman didn't come up to you and tell you not to come back in here, that she didn't want you in here: I could have, but my kids were in there. I mean, I wasn't going to leave my kids in there. I don't recall her precisely saying that to me, but I couldn't say no because I don't know. Plus, I'm deaf in one ear but I wasn't going to leave my kids in there.
Now you're saying that that's not the ear that you were -- that she was on. That's not the ear that you are deaf in, right?
JUNTA: No, she was on the good one.
CALKINS: As it was, I had to go in. My son was hysterical because he couldn't get his tape off. I had to rip his tape off his skate and get it off to get him changed. Now, Mr. Junta, it's fair to say that that's not the reason you were going in was because your son was hysterical and you needed to get his tape off?
JUNTA: No. CALKINS: And it's fair to say the reason you didn't have a conversation with Mrs. Blanchard is because you ignored her and just walked right by her?
JUNTA: It's possible, yes.
CALKINS: Mr. Junta, when you ran down to the side of the ice rink and you opened up the door, you didn't call over to the adult on the ice and say, hey bud, come here, can I talk to you. I don't know if you are aware of it, but there's a lot of roughness going on out there and I'm concerned about it. Can you control it? You didn't try any sort of that tact, did you, Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: He come up on his own when I yelled at the kid for hitting the other kid with the sticks.
CALKINS: But you didn't try to talk to him about what you had seen and try to tell him about the roughness that was going on on the ice?
JUNTA: Well, first of all, he couldn't really see. There was an adult at first because they were all squatting down.
CALKINS: Well, Mr. Junta, when you did realize it was an adult, you didn't try to talk to him and explain to him what you were concerned about or what you saw?
JUNTA: Well, when he come up to me said, that's hockey, I said my piece. He said his piece. That was it.
CALKINS: All right. But you didn't try and talk to him and explain to him what your piece was, did you?
JUNTA: No, ma'am, but he knew what I was talking about.
CALKINS: He knew what you were talking about.
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: But you didn't get a chance to explain it to him because you just yelled out at him -- at the kids and you never told him what your piece was, did you?
JUNTA: Like I said, he knew what I was talking about.
CALKINS: Just yes or no, Mr. Junta. Did you tell...
JUNTA: No I did not explain it to him.
CALKINS: ... what you were concerned about?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: Now, the incident that occurred at the locker rooms, Mr. Junta, you indicated that your son came off the ice and went into the locker room, is that right? JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And that you went into the locker room. You were standing at the threshold of the locker room or did you actually go inside the locker room?
JUNTA: I was inside the door, a couple feet.
CALKINS: So you are standing inside the locker room. And that's when were you telling your son that he had to get tough or he had to defend himself?
JUNTA: Pretty much, yes, all the boys.
CALKINS: And you weren't saying that in the tone of voice that you are using right now, were you, Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: No. It was a little louder, yes.
CALKINS: In fact, you were yelling, weren't you?
JUNTA: I don't think I would use the word yelling, but it was just a high voice. It wasn't really yelling.
CALKINS: Well, you did use the word yelling when you spoke with the police.
JUNTA: Yes, I did use the word.
CALKINS: And you said to the police, I can get pretty loud. I was pretty loud.
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And so it's fair to say that yelling means loud?
JUNTA: I assume, yes.
CALKINS: All right. So you were yelling at your son that he had to defend himself?
JUNTA: I wouldn't calling it yelling at my son. It was just saying it loud.
CALKINS: Well, who were you talking to if you weren't yelling at your son?
JUNTA: The boys in the room.
CALKINS: All right. So you were yelling at all three boys telling them that they had to get tough.
JUNTA: I was saying it loud.
CALKINS: Well, Mr. Junta, I'm just using the word you used to the police. JUNTA: Yes, ma'am. I know.
CALKINS: And is that the word you used when you explained it to the police?
JUNTA: That's the word I used.
CALKINS: Now, it's fair to say, Mr. Junta, that you were yelling loud enough that people outside the locker room could have heard you?
JUNTA: Only if you were walking through at that time.
CALKINS: And that's what Mr. Costin was doing? He was walking through, wasn't he?
JUNTA: Him and his kids were, yes.
CALKINS: So, at the time -- after yelling, you turn around and it is fair to say that, at that point, you were walking out the locker room? Is that when you first saw Mr. Costin?
JUNTA: No. I was standing there still.
CALKINS: All right. So you are still standing in the locker room and your back is to locker room one?
JUNTA: My side.
CALKINS: Your side. And that's when you heard a comment by Mr. Costin?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And the comment was something along the lines of, that's hockey?
JUNTA: Yes, but not in that tone.
CALKINS: All right. That's hockey?
JUNTA: A little more boisterous than that.
CALKINS: Yelling?
JUNTA: Maybe not as loud, but just -- it was in the same neighborhood.
CALKINS: Not as loud as who? Not as loud as you or not as loud as what?
JUNTA: Quite possible. My voice was a little louder because I was in that little confined room.
CALKINS: OK. So he didn't yell as loud as you were yelling?
JUNTA: No. But over him and his children, it was -- I still heard it.
CALKINS: So he says that's hockey, and is that when you turned around and looked over your right shoulder? And is that when you saw him for the first time, that second time?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: All right. And when you turned around and you looked over your right shoulder, where did you see him?
JUNTA: He was like in the doorway.
CALKINS: OK. Fair to say that he was in the doorway to locker room one?
JUNTA: Almost in the doorway.
CALKINS: Right here in this area?
JUNTA: A little before that.
CALKINS: Little before it. Do you have the laser pointer? Maybe you can tell us where he was.
JUNTA: Right about like right there.
CALKINS: So fair to say right there at the corner of the alcove?
JUNTA: If you meant his whole body, there was like one foot there, probably one foot there (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CALKINS: OK. Am I right though, you pointed to corner of the wall leading to the alcove?
JUNTA: Yes. From the corner -- that would be his body size right there.
CALKINS: OK. How far from you, four feet, five feet?
JUNTA: No, not even. Probably three feet, maybe.
CALKINS: Three feet. So Mr. Costin is three feet away from you and you turn around and that's where he is after you hear that statement. And it's fair to say, Mr. Junta, at that point you turned around and I believe you said that you stepped towards him, isn't that right?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And when you stepped towards him, at that point, you were one foot away from him?
JUNTA: Yes, pretty close.
CALKINS: OK. And it's fair to say that you were approximately less than a foot or a foot between the two of you? JUNTA: I would say a foot.
CALKINS: A foot?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And at that point when you were within a foot of Mr. Costin, it's fair to say that you're speaking to him in a pretty loud voice, telling him, that's (EXPLETIVE DELETED)? Is that the term you used?
JUNTA: I used that one on the ice. I probably could have used it again. I'm not too sure.
CALKINS: Well what do you recall saying to Mr. Costin?
JUNTA: That the kids were going to get hurt and that they were there for fun. They weren't there for that.
CALKINS: All right. And it's fair to say, like I said, you were yelling at him?
JUNTA: He was yelling at me too, ma'am.
CALKINS: And he was yelling at you. And at that point, you said that Mr. Costin put his chest up to you?
JUNTA: I think I said I walked back and he did it again and then he did that.
CALKINS: OK. So you -- at that point, you turned and walked away?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And Mr. Costin stayed there?
JUNTA: I don't know what he did because I walked back into my room...
CALKINS: Well, when you walked back in and you -- what did you do, tell the kids to hurry up?
JUNTA: Hurry up. Let's go.
CALKINS: All right. So then you turned back around and Mr. Costin is still in that area right there, isn't he?
JUNTA: Pretty much it seemed, yes.
CALKINS: All right. He wasn't any closer to you, was he, Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: I don't believe so.
CALKINS: OK. And he is standing there. And is that when he put his chest up to you?
JUNTA: No. He had said something. I walked back out and said, what is your problem. Then he did it.
CALKINS: All right. So he said something to you. What did he say at that point?
JUNTA: I'm not too sure, again.
CALKINS: You don't know. And when he said that to you, you then walked towards him again?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And is it fair to say that when you walked towards him again, you got within a foot of him again, didn't you?
JUNTA: Yes, we were pretty close again.
CALKINS: You were pretty close. And is that when Mr. Costin put his chest up to you?
JUNTA: Yes. It's kind of when he leaned into me.
CALKINS: All right. So he's leaning into you. Why don't you step down, Mr. Junta, and show me how it is that Mr. Costin moved into you. I will be you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I object to that, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sustained.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
CALKINS: Well, can I use Mr. Kaufman (ph)? Well, why don't -- just show them how you leaned...
JUNTA: How he leaned into me.
CALKINS: How he leaned into you, OK. So he leaned into you, Mr. Junta. Would you describe that as a lunge into you?
JUNTA: A lunge? No. I wouldn't call it a lunge.
CALKINS: So he just leaned into you?
JUNTA: It was a bump.
CALKINS: What is that?
JUNTA: A bump.
CALKINS: A bump?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: So he actually touched you?
JUNTA: Yes, we touched.
CALKINS: Did you ever tell the police that he actually touched you?
JUNTA: Word for word, I don't know.
CALKINS: You don't know. Would you like time to look at your statement and see whether or not you ever said that he bumped you?
JUNTA: I believe if it's in there, it's in there.
CALKINS: It's not in there, is it, Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: I'm not sure. I'm really not sure.
CALKINS: You never had gone over your statement before testifying today?
JUNTA: All I read was a couple of times. A couple of times I've read it, but I'm not sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One second. One at time.
CALKINS: Do you recall it being in your statement, that he bumped into you?
JUNTA: I don't know if it was a bump or he threw it in my face or his chin. I forget the exact words.
CALKINS: You don't remember the exact words. Well why don't you explain what you, exactly in your own words, what happened?
JUNTA: We were out in that little area. And it was something about the hockey stuff again. And he went up to me like this and then we each immediately grabbed each other up here.
CALKINS: OK. Now when he went up to like this, that's when you're saying that he bumped into you.
JUNTA: Yes, pretty much.
CALKINS: And where did he bump into you?
JUNTA: It was up around here because he was taller, a little taller than me.
CALKINS: What part of his body hit this part of your body?
JUNTA: I'd say his chest was a little higher than my chest. We'll call it that.
CALKINS: All right. So when your chest hit -- when his chest hit your chest, did you bump noses or chins?
JUNTA: We got very close.
CALKINS: But it's fair to say that Mr. Costin's arms were down here.
JUNTA: I don't recall the position of his arms, but his hands were up very quick around my shirt area.
CALKINS: But when he did that, his hands were down, weren't they?
JUNTA: Yeah, I guess.
CALKINS: And then very quickly, both of you have a hold of each other?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And is that -- is that when you punched Mr. Costin?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: No? Did you punch him at all in the alcove of that locker room?
JUNTA: Not that I recall. We both had each other, trying to, but nothing was really hitting anyone.
CALKINS: Not that you recall?
JUNTA: Nope.
CALKINS: Do you recall telling Officer Murphy that Mr. -- that the man lunged at you with his chest out and shoulders back, and at this time, you punched the man?
JUNTA: I don't recall saying that precisely.
CALKINS: You don't recall saying that?
JUNTA: Not precisely.
CALKINS: I'm sorry, I can't hear you?
JUNTA: Not exactly.
CALKINS: Not exactly? Well, do you recall saying that you punched him?
JUNTA: I could have, I don't remember.
CALKINS: OK. And it's your testimony today, Mr. Junta, that you don't remember punching him, or that you didn't punch him?
JUNTA: In the hallway, in that little alcove way there, we both tried to hit each other at the same time. So I don't know if I got him. CALKINS: I thought on direct you said that no punches were thrown?
JUNTA: No, I said we had each other like this, and going like that.
CALKINS: Right, but that's not the same thing as punching, both of you lunging at each other?
JUNTA: I meant, we had each other -- I think I did say punches, I'm not sure. But we didn't really hit.
CALKINS: So what you're saying is that you had each other by the shoulders, and that then, you were trying to punch each other like this?
JUNTA: No, we each had our shirt -- after my chain snapped and twisted, we each had each other's shirt, like this. It was just like you probably see a regular hockey fight, when they have each other up around the collars.
CALKINS: All right. So you had to let go to be able to punch each other?
JUNTA: Not really, no.
CALKINS: OK. So you punched while you were still holding on to each other?
JUNTA: We punched, yes. He was throwing punches, and I was.
CALKINS: Now, at that point -- and is that same time you had Mr. Costin up against the wall?
JUNTA: It was all pretty quick and simultaneous.
CALKINS: When you had him up against the wall, you had him up here, right, by his shoulders?
JUNTA: Yeah.
CALKINS: And is that when you two were throwing punches at each other?
JUNTA: That's when we were attempting, yes. Then he stepped on my foot.
CALKINS: And that's when he was sliding down the wall.
JUNTA: Because I pulled my foot out and he slipped.
CALKINS: He slipped, and he's sliding down.
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And, it's fair to say, Mr. Junta, that I think you said that Mr. Costin got your foot with his skate?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: It's fair to say that he was not as balanced as you were at that point, because he was on skates, isn't that right?
JUNTA: I actually think his back may have been against the wall, so he might have had more balance than me.
CALKINS: But he was sliding down the wall, wasn't he, Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: Yes, as I pulled my foot out, he went down like that.
CALKINS: So, he is on skates, and you're in sneakers. Is it fair to say that you had the advantage?
JUNTA: On even edge? I don't know if I would call it an even edge.
CALKINS: I said, is it fair that you had an advantage?
JUNTA: Oh, advantage.
CALKINS: Yes.
JUNTA: I don't think so, because he had all his equipment on. I didn't have anything.
CALKINS: Well, the equipment that he had on, Mr. Junta, was skates, isn't that right?
JUNTA: Skates, a helmet, and his shin pads.
CALKINS: You're saying he did have a helmet on?
JUNTA: I believe he did.
CALKINS: Did it hurt when you punched him?
JUNTA: I don't recall because...
CALKINS: You don't recall.
JUNTA: I don't recall any punches hitting.
CALKINS: When he -- when he was sliding down the wall, is it fair to say that his feet were moving, trying to catch his balance?
JUNTA: No, because it was just like a -- like a boom, like this, you know.
CALKINS: And when he is down, you're still over him?
JUNTA: Yes, I still was holding onto his shirt.
CALKINS: You were still holding onto his shirt. So at this point, you're like this, because he is sliding down the walk, right?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And he is sliding down?
JUNTA: Yes, but he had my shirt, too.
CALKINS: You still had him...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection.
(CROSSTALK)
CALKINS: I'm sorry, your honor, I thought I did let him finish. Go ahead.
JUNTA: He had me too at the same time. That's why I was going with him, like this.
CALKINS: OK, so he had a hold of you, and that's when your chain got broken?
JUNTA: No, that got broken first, when he grabbed my shirt and twisted it, the very first time.
CALKINS: And is that when your shirt got ripped, when he went like this and pulled it?
JUNTA: The shirt kind of got ripped during the rest of it, when he had my shirt like face off, when they first broke us up. And he yelling and screaming in my face.
CALKINS: And that's when your shirt got ripped.
JUNTA: That's when he had my shirt, and really ripped the st of the way down. It was torn real bad.
CALKINS: Is that because you were being pulled away from Mr. Costin, and he had hold of your shirt, as you were being pulled away, the shirt is ripping?
JUNTA: No, he had let go at that time.
CALKINS: He let go at that time.
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: So what you're saying, Mr. Junta, is you're standing over Mr. Costin and you have him by the shoulders. He's got a hold of your shirt, and that he pulled it downward towards him, and that's when it ripped?
JUNTA: It might have ripped a little bit there.
CALKINS: And when did it rip the rest of the way?
JUNTA: When we were at face-off again, we were both standing up again.
CALKINS: OK, so what you're saying is Mr. Costin got up, and you're both facing off?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And is this when Ryan Carr is in between the two of you?
JUNTA: Ryan Carr came in shortly after that, and was in between the two of us like this on my left side.
CALKINS: But you already have men around that are breaking up the fight.
JUNTA: Yeah, that's why I got off the floor, because the way I was off balance, because he was kicking at me with the skates. My feet were like on the tip-toes on the back. So actually, I was using my hand to hold me up too, kind of.
CALKINS: And he was holding on to you to keep his balance?
JUNTA: He was already sitting on the floor.
CALKINS: He was already sitting on the floor?
JUNTA: Kind of, yeah.
CALKINS: Now, you both stand up?
JUNTA: Yes, we both got pulled up.
CALKINS: You both got pulled up?
JUNTA: Yes, Ryan Carr grabbed me, and Mark was there.
CALKINS: OK. And he helped Mr. Costin up?
JUNTA: I'm don't know really who helped him up. I'm not sure.
CALKINS: He just said he got pulled up?
JUNTA: Well, he must have.
CALKINS: And that's because when you're down on your butt on skates, Mr. Junta, it's not that easy to get up, is it?
JUNTA: You can get up. It's not really a big thing.
CALKINS: Just as easy as when you don't have skates on?
JUNTA: To some people it is, yeah.
CALKINS: To some people.
JUNTA: Yes. CALKINS: How about yourself?
JUNTA: Before my knees went bad, yeah, I could do it.
CALKINS: Just as easy as with sneakers?
JUNTA: Yeah, you can bounce right up.
CALKINS: So, Mr. Costin gets up and you're both standing there. And it's your testimony that Mr. Costin reached over and grabbed your shirt and ripped it off your arm at that point?
JUNTA: He reached -- first it was the middle finger he was giving, and all that. He was spitting. We're like this close together and he was ripping my shirt down, going totally crazy.
CALKINS: Total crazy.
JUNTA: Totally crazy.
CALKINS: And this is when Ryan Carr and John Cullen and Mark Corto were all right there, breaking it up?
JUNTA: I don't remember John Cullen, but I remember Mark and Ryan Carr there.
CALKINS: And he's going absolutely nuts?
JUNTA: Just yelling and stuff.
CALKINS: I thought you said he was drooling?
JUNTA: He was. He was spit and drooling.
CALKINS: Spit and drooling?
JUNTA: Yeah.
CALKINS: Mr. Junta, why your hands sore after the fight?
JUNTA: Yeah.
CALKINS: Both fights?
JUNTA: Yeah.
CALKINS: Fair to say, sore from punching?
JUNTA: Well, one was hitting the wall and I have arthritis in this hand anyway.
CALKINS: But you said to the police that both hands were sore, didn't you?
JUNTA: Both hands, yes, that's right.
CALKINS: Both hands were sore after the fight?
JUNTA: Mm-hmm.
CALKINS: Yes or no?
JUNTA: Yes, ma'am.
CALKINS: The second fight, Mr. Junta, you leave the lobby, right?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: You're outside. You're coming back in. Nancy Blanchard meets you out here. The second set of doors leading inside, is that fair to say?
JUNTA: The inside door, yep.
CALKINS: And you open up the far right door...
JUNTA: When I was coming into the rink, the first time I seen her?
CALKINS: When you were coming in, right before the second fight.
JUNTA: Yes, I came in both the same doors I had gone in earlier.
CALKINS: Far right door.
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: Closest one to the control room?
JUNTA: I thought you meant the other end. I was coming in by the office, then the pro shop, then the control room.
CALKINS: You're coming from outside to inside?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And you're going for that far right door?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And it's your testimony, Mr. Junta, that you couldn't -- you could see someone inside, you could see a person inside to the glass, but you didn't know who it was?
JUNTA: That's true, yes.
CALKINS: You -- you open up the doors?
JUNTA: One door.
CALKINS: One door?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: Right door, left door?
JUNTA: Right door.
CALKINS: All right, so you open up the right door. And you step in, and from the left corner of your eye, you -- you see something, or something draws your attention?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And you look over.
JUNTA: I wouldn't say, it was -- it wasn't like one step look. It was real fast, fast thing.
CALKINS: And you step in. You see something on your left and you look over. And Mr. Costin at this point is where you pointed out on the photograph, which is like, right -- right by the doors in that section between the two sets of doors?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: Yes?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And he cocks his arm back, right?
JUNTA: I didn't actually see the cock of the arm.
CALKINS: You didn't?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: All right. What is first thing you saw?
JUNTA: I seen him coming at me and throwing like this. I didn't know if it was a punch or there was something in his hand coming over. I just ducked.
CALKINS: So it's down here?
JUNTA: Yes, it was way down.
CALKINS: And he got his left arm up? I mean, left leg up?
JUNTA: That didn't come up until I got like this. It wasn't immediate. You know what I'm saying, it was a split second.
CALKINS: But he was doing this?
JUNTA: It wasn't like that, it was a little less than what you are leaning. Not hitting the floor, but...
CALKINS: Like this? JUNTA: Similar. Don't look right coming from a woman.
CALKINS: OK, where is his left arm?
JUNTA: It was out in front I guess, I'm not sure.
CALKINS: Out in front where?
JUNTA: I'm not sure, ma'am. I wasn't paying attention.
CALKINS: OK. And as he is coming like this, is this when you start to see him? And he lifts his left leg?
JUNTA: I seen a couple -- through the corner of my eye, I seen a couple steps coming. And as soon as I turned, it was all right there, in seconds.
CALKINS: Can you show us how he did that?
JUNTA: How he threw the punch?
(CROSSTALK)
(OFF-MIKE)
JUNTA: He was coming around -- as I was coming through the door, he was coming around like this. And I couldn't see what was in his hand.
CALKINS: But he did this little skip.
JUNTA: Like a little hop.
CALKINS: A little hop? I would ask, your honor, if he could stay there. What did you do, Mr. Junta, when you saw Mr. Costin coming at you with this sort of thing?
(OFF-MIKE)
CALKINS: OK. And when you did that, what happened to Mr. Costin?
JUNTA: He ended up (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CALKINS: He landed on the top of your back?
JUNTA: Yeah.
CALKINS: Face first, back first?
JUNTA: (OFF-MIKE)
CALKINS: But is like over your back like this, face first?
JUNTA: No, it was like -- I should say (OFF-MIKE).
CALKINS: His what?
JUNTA: His bum.
CALKINS: His bum in your hand? Are his arms dangling over your back?
JUNTA: (OFF-MIKE)
CALKINS: So is his head over your shoulders?
JUNTA: On this is side of me, ma'am.
CALKINS: OK. So his shoulders are next to your neck?
JUNTA: I can't tell you the exact position of where he was on my back. I couldn't see him on my back.
CALKINS: So at that point, you stand up. And is he still on your back?
JUNTA: No, I don't stand up.
CALKINS: What do you do?
JUNTA: (OFF-MIKE) And as he pushed off like this, we both fell down.
CALKINS: Is he on the ground, like, running along with you, or are his feet off the ground?
JUNTA: It was kind of like dragging.
CALKINS: So, is it fair to say, you're almost carrying him over your shoulder, because you're pointing to his side of your body, the right side of your body. So you've got him over your shoulder, and you're walking like this, or you're going forward like this?
JUNTA: My momentum carried us...
CALKINS: All right, but his feet are dangling, so you're literally carrying him over your shoulder? What happens next?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE)
CALKINS: What happens next?
JUNTA: We went into the corner, like I showed you. (OFF-MIKE)
CALKINS: When you fell on the ground, how did you land?
JUNTA: I can't get down -- I couldn't (OFF-MIKE)
CALKINS: You didn't have any problem doing it that day, though, did you, Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: I had no choice. CALKINS: But you can't show us today, how it is that your were holding Mr. Costin?
JUNTA: My knees -- I couldn't get down to that exact position.
CALKINS: Well, try and describe it as much as possible from the chair.
JUNTA: When we hit the floor, it's like this -- this side of my -- you know, thigh area, back of this foot, and my other knee was twisted to the side. My knees are pointed in like that.
CALKINS: Your knees were pointing in like this?
JUNTA: Yes, not that quite extreme. Like that.
CALKINS: Are you sitting back of your legs?
JUNTA: Pretty much, yeah.
CALKINS: Where is Mr. Costin, in relation to your body?
JUNTA: He was right in front of me, straight out like this.
CALKINS: He's straight out like this.
JUNTA: Pretty much straight out, yeah.
CALKINS: Mr. Junta, when you say that he is straight out like this, can you show us where his body was straight out?
JUNTA: Use this thing?
CALKINS: Sure.
JUNTA: I would say his feet are there, and he was right there and I was right about there.
CALKINS: So you're on his left side?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: You were on his left side, and both knees on the ground?
JUNTA: Right.
CALKINS: So he is right here, and both knees are on the ground. At what part of his body?
JUNTA: I'd say from like his mid-thigh, up.
CALKINS: OK, so right here, you're down on the ground on your knees. And your knees are at his mid thigh?
JUNTA: One knee was mid thigh, the other knee was like belly area.
CALKINS: OK. At some point do you move your legs on top of Mr. Costin's legs?
JUNTA: No, never.
CALKINS: You never did that.
JUNTA: I never did that.
CALKINS: And at some point, do you grab on to Mr. Costin's shoulder or head area, right before you punch him?
JUNTA: No, I didn't.
CALKINS: You didn't do that?
JUNTA: I didn't grab him.
CALKINS: So you're kneeling down next to him. What happens next?
JUNTA: As soon as we hit the floor, he started brining his knees up and his feet up, trying to kick me. And then he was using his right hand to punch me, because he had my left wrist in his left hand.
CALKINS: So he's on the ground, fair to say, on his back?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: His left hand has your right or left...
JUNTA: My left.
CALKINS: Your left wrist. And he is trying to kick you?
JUNTA: Yes, he's bringing his knees up trying to kick me. I think I wrote knees and feet. He was going all over.
CALKINS: Bringing his knees and feet up to what, his chest area?
JUNTA: No. He was almost getting me.
CALKINS: What was that?
JUNTA: He was almost getting me up in the head area.
CALKINS: He was almost getting you in the head. And what do you do when he's trying to get you in the head?
JUNTA: I was ducking back like this.
CALKINS: You didn't stand up and walk away?
JUNTA: I couldn't have got up.
CALKINS: You couldn't?
JUNTA: My knees...
CALKINS: You couldn't stand up and get up and walk away?
JUNTA: Not the way my knees were. It took me a couple of moves to get up, the way my knees...
CALKINS: Did you try to stand up with your bad knees, Mr. Junta, and get away?
JUNTA: He had my left wrist and he wouldn't let go.
CALKINS: This is a 156-pound man, flat on his back, holding on to your wrists, and you want this jury to believe that you couldn't get away from him?
JUNTA: Yes, I do, because that's the truth. That's what happened. He had my wrist.
CALKINS: He had your wrist?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: So, he has your wrist holding on to it tight. And what did you do?
JUNTA: I pulled a couple times. He hit me a couple times, and then I threw three quick punches.
CALKINS: So, he has your wrist and you're trying to get away, right?
JUNTA: No, it was straight pulls, just like that.
CALKINS: OK, and he's not letting go?
JUNTA: He was actually coming off the floor little bit.
CALKINS: He was coming up off the floor?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: I thought his knees were up around your head?
JUNTA: No, I said kicking up at me. I never said they were wrapped around my head or anything.
CALKINS: All right, so they never made contact with you?
JUNTA: He hit me a couple times, glancing off the side and stuff.
CALKINS: Let me ask you this, Mr. Junta. Did you -- did you try and hold -- take your left arm, bring it over and hold on to him, to stop him from punching you? JUNTA: I don't get the position.
CALKINS: Did you grab him by the shoulders, Mr. Junta, and lean over him and try to stop him from punching you?
JUNTA: No, I couldn't grab him by the shoulders. He had my left hand.
CALKINS: What about with your right hand?
JUNTA: The way I was positioned, I would have had to lean completely over, and then he probably could have kicked me in the face, or kneed me in the face.
CALKINS: Well, his legs are down almost three feet away from your head, right?
JUNTA: Yes, but he was bringing them up pretty quick.
CALKINS: He was bringing them up.
JUNTA: Pretty agile, I guess.
CALKINS: So he has you by the left wrist, and he is -- and you're -- you just all of a sudden, start doing?
JUNTA: After couple times him hitting me, it was three off- balance punches. That's all I threw.
CALKINS: Did you hit him the first time, Mr. Junta, and stop, see whether he would stop?
JUNTA: I don't recall if that happened or not.
CALKINS: But you know you hit him three times. You hit him a first time, and you didn't stop to see whether or not that was enough, did you?
JUNTA: No, because he didn't stop either.
CALKINS: All right, so he is still trying to fight with you?
JUNTA: Yes, he was.
CALKINS: All right, and you hit him a second time?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And he still trying to fight you?
JUNTA: Yes, he was.
CALKINS: Mr. Junta, what part of your body -- what part of his body are you punching?
JUNTA: I was hitting his upper side. CALKINS: And it's fair to say, Mr. Junta, that he's -- you're hitting this area, right? Because he's got his head turned in this direction, doesn't he?
JUNTA: It seemed like he might have been moving that way.
CALKINS: Like this?
JUNTA: Yeah.
CALKINS: And you boom, right to the left side of the head?
JUNTA: I don't know if it was a boom. I don't know where it landed. I wasn't trying to hit anywhere particular. I wanted him to stop hitting me.
CALKINS: But he's like this, and you hit him again on the head, didn't you?
JUNTA: That was almost like a simultaneous punch. He was doing it to me, too.
CALKINS: You never stopped between any of those punches, did you, Mr. Junta, to see whether or not that was enough?
JUNTA: It took about two seconds to throw three punches, and that was it.
CALKINS: Well, it would have taken a lot less to throw one punch?
JUNTA: Yes, it would have, but he was hitting me back the whole time.
CALKINS: He was hitting you back the whole time.
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And you never tried to grab the arms and just stop him, and to pin him down and say enough?
JUNTA: No. He had my arm. If he had let go, I probably could have rolled away or something.
CALKINS: All right, so he's holding on to your left wrist the entire time.
JUNTA: The whole time, he wouldn't let go.
CALKINS: The whole time. Mr. Junta, when he had a hold of your wrist, and he's kicking up at you and you went one, two, three, did you hear Nancy Blanchard yelling to you, stop it, stop it, you're going to kill him?
JUNTA: No, ma'am. CALKINS: What about Jenny Brinks, who was within a couple feet of you. Did you hear her yelling at you, "stop it, stop it, you're going to kill him, think of your kids"?
JUNTA: No, ma'am. There was nobody in the area but Ryan Carr.
CALKINS: Nobody was near you but Ryan Carr?
JUNTA: That was in that immediate little circle.
CALKINS: So, Nancy Blanchard wasn't there, Jenny Brinks wasn't there.
JUNTA: No, ma'am.
CALKINS: No. So you never heard either one of those women screaming at you, "stop it, stop it"?
JUNTA: The only thing I heard after that was a little boy say something.
CALKINS: How about a little girl in a figure skating outfit? Did you see her?
JUNTA: No, I didn't see her either.
CALKINS: Mr. Junta, you described to the police the day that the incident happened, that the second fight was a mutual lunge. Do you remember describing it that way?
JUNTA: Yes, I do.
CALKINS: You didn't describe to the police how Mr. Costin had his arm down here, and how he did this little skipping routine towards you. You didn't describe that to them, did you?
JUNTA: No, ma'am I didn't.
CALKINS: What you described was, you kept saying he did a circle move?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: That's -- there was no circle move that you just described to us, was there?
JUNTA: That's what I told you, that round about move. That's what I meant by it.
CALKINS: The round about move.
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And did the round about move happen when he was walking by you, or did it happen right before he does the skipping routine? JUNTA: The round-about move was when I was coming into that door, almost to it. That's when I caught it coming around like this, around the side of me.
CALKINS: And it's your testimony, Mr. Junta, that he came around to the left side of you.
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: So, he -- you see a -- is fair to say, Mr. Junta, that you believe that the person that you saw going from right to left through those doors that day, right before you walked in, is it fair to say that you believe that to be Mr. Costin?
JUNTA: No, that ain't fair to say.
CALKINS: All right. But you see somebody going from left to right, right before you go through the threshold of the door?
JUNTA: Yes, at the same time.
CALKINS: And you look to your left, and there's a person, Mr. Costin, right there on your left?
JUNTA: Coming at me, yes.
CALKINS: All right, and what you're saying is, he made a circle move, and he comes at you on your left-hand side. So you had to look over your left shoulder in order to see him?
JUNTA: Yes, kind of like this.
CALKINS: And he's right there by the door, right by you where -- you just barely walked in, and he's right there by the door?
JUNTA: No, he wasn't by the door. It was a little further away.
CALKINS: A little further out from the door?
JUNTA: Yeah.
CALKINS: And when you described it to the police, Mr. Junta, you said it was like a mutual lunge, but "you know, I got the upper hand. I guess I outweigh him a little bit."
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: Is fair to say, Mr. Junta, that you outweigh him over 100 pounds?
JUNTA: Yes, now I found that out.
CALKINS: You also told the police on that day that in the first incident, "he was throwing at me and I was throwing at him." When you say throwing, you mean throwing punches, don't you?
JUNTA: I meant this thing with the shirts and stuff.
CALKINS: All right. So that's what you mean when you say throwing?
JUNTA: That incident, yes.
CALKINS: You also described something that happened to you right before the first incident, where you said that you were shaking a little?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: Because you shake a little when you get upset, when you get mad, you shake?
JUNTA: Pretty much anyway, my legs shake, from the operations I had on my knees.
CALKINS: But that's not what you were talking about, were you, Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: That's exactly what I was talking about. I meant it just happens, I shake.
CALKINS: You shake. But your upper body shakes when you get upset or you get mad. Isn't that what you said to the police?
JUNTA: I don't think I recall saying that.
CALKINS: Do you remember saying that -- do you remember saying that you thought that maybe Mr. Costin mistook it, because were you shaking.
JUNTA: I remember something similar, yes.
CALKINS: And so he wasn't looking at your knees shaking, was he, Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: When something starts going, it probably just travels up.
CALKINS: All right, but you're talking about your upper body that was shaking, not your knees.
JUNTA: I was basically talking about my knees.
CALKINS: So Mr. Costin had to be looking at your knees to mistake this shaking?
JUNTA: I guess you can attribute it to being cold. If you ever see someone who's cold, they shake.
CALKINS: You also told the police that day, that -- "we're the floor and stuff and he is kicking me and trying to hit me and I'm hitting him"?
JUNTA: Yes. CALKINS: Ryan Carr came up and pulled you off Mr. Costin the second time, too, didn't he?
JUNTA: Yes, Ryan Carr was there.
CALKINS: Now, you said that you -- by the time Ryan Carr came up to pull you off Mr. Costin, you were on your knees and you were sitting back on your heels?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: Mr. Junta, after the first punch, did you sit back on your heels?
JUNTA: No, I was in that position pretty much the whole time.
CALKINS: All right. So you were in that position the whole time. So it's not like you sat back on your heels because you were done. Ryan Carr came up behind you and he pulled you off, isn't that fair to say?
JUNTA: Just after the first punch, ma'am.
CALKINS: You said you were on your heels the entire time?
JUNTA: Pretty much, but you just made it sound like the first punch.
CALKINS: All right, so you were on your heels the he entire time?
JUNTA: This heel.
CALKINS: So, you're on your left heel?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And Ryan Carr -- you go, one, two, three. And Ryan Carr comes up after the third punch and pulls you off?
JUNTA: Mr. Costin came up like that with his hand, first.
CALKINS: Mr. Costin goes like this with his hand.
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And what did you do when you saw that hand?
JUNTA: I stopped hitting him immediately.
CALKINS: So your testimony is that you stopped before Ryan Carr ever got near you?
JUNTA: Yes. Well, it was almost that split time too. But as soon as he went like that, yes, I stopped.
CALKINS: As soon as he went like that?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: Mr. Junta, do you also remember describing to the police how the second incident happened? You said: "So what were the words that were said back" -- I'm referring to page 14, line 17, Mr. Junta, if you'd like to follow along. "So what were the words that were said back and forth when he came out, when you say he circled around you. What was he saying and what you were you saying.
"I really don't remember what was said. It was just like one of them things, where you knew something was going to happen. It was like a switch on, and the only reason I probably -- I mean, I didn't know if the guy knew karate or anything. You know, I mean, he could have been a black belt, for all I knew. I mean, the way he was trying to kick me with his skates, it was like a jump like this, like a mutual grab, like I said, you know, that's about all I can."
Mr. Junta, Mr. Costin didn't have any skates on during that second incident, did he?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: And he didn't kick up at you with his skates in any karate move, did he?
JUNTA: In the first fight.
CALKINS: The first fight, he did.
JUNTA: They were kick out sideways -- sidekicks.
CALKINS: So when the switch went on, Mr. Junta, was the switch going on for the first fight or the second fight.
JUNTA: I was trying to describe to the police how quick it was. That's all I was trying to describe there.
CALKINS: Throughout your statement to the police Mr. Junta you describe the incident as a mutual grab. Is that fair to say?
JUNTA: Yes that's words I used.
CALKINS: And nowhere in here do you talk about Mr. Costin ever having his right arm down and coming at you, going over your back, that's nowhere to be found in the statement to the police, is it?
JUNTA: No it's not in there. .
CALKINS: Your testimony, Mr. Junta, that you shake when you start getting pissed or mad?
JUNTA: It could happen, you know. It's my legs.
CALKINS: Mr. Junta, when the -- after the first incident, you are saying you weren't told to leave the rink. You went back in and told the kids...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, Your Honor. This question has been asked and answered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it necessary to go over that again?
CALKINS: I have -- I'm going in a different direction with it, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, go ahead.
CALKINS: You go into the locker room tell the kids to hurry but you don't wait for them, Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: You just walk out, and the kids are left behind?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And it is not until you are outside that you begin to worry about the kids?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: And it's because I believe you told the police, that you thought they were right behind you?
JUNTA: They should have been out within that one or two minutes, they should have been there.
CALKINS: They should have been right out behind you. Why didn't you stay, Mr. Junta, in the locker room with them, if you were so concerned for them that day?
JUNTA: Because they had minimal equipment on. I figured they only had skates and helmets, and we would be out of there in two seconds, let that guy and his kids have the room. They were in full equipment.
CALKINS: Right, so if it was only going to take two seconds -- I'm sorry, I didn't mean interrupt you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Finish your answer.
JUNTA: My kids had minimal equipment, those people were in full hockey gear. I figured it would take a lot longer than us to get up and go.
CALKINS: So, if it only took two seconds, or a few seconds for those kids to get ready, why didn't you wait for them?
JUNTA: Because I went outside to drop my tail gate. I figured, it would have been drop the tailgate, boom boom, get in the truck and go. CALKINS: It would have been just as quick to wait for them, and have them follow you out, drop the tailgate, throw their stuff in and they are gone.
JUNTA: That could have been, but ever since they have been old enough to dress themselves I have always left them to themselves and it was habit. CALKINS: But that wasn't -- every day wasn't a day that you had an altercation with man who was still in the locker room, No. 1? Is it?
JUNTA: No, ma'am.
CALKINS: So you leave them inside and you go outside. But you weren't told to leave, you went out on your own.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. I think it's been asked and answered three times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sustained. .
CALKINS: Mr. Junta, were you ever on the bleachers that day watching the incident.
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: The hockey game between the kids?
JUNTA: No.
CALKINS: I just need one second, your honor.
HARRIS: While Sheila Calkins is looking through her notes, let's bring in Cynthia Alksne, who has been watching this at our Washington bureau. Cynthia, what jumps out at you at this particular point?
CYNTHIA ALKSNE, ATTORNEY: Well, there are three aspects of her cross-examination that helped the prosecution. The first was that she got into the entry as he went back in for the second fight and confronted this woman, Mrs. Blanchard.
Mrs. Blanchard has a large bruise on her arm which has been shown to the jury. There was a photograph. He doesn't even remember it. So the prosecution painted a good picture of a man so enraged he couldn't even remember pushing a little old lady. That helped the prosecution.
The second thing that helped the prosecution was that she got him out of the chair in front of the jury repeatedly. That was a tactic. You notice the defense attorney kept saying, put him back in the chair, he is done, and she kept saying, no, I want to talk to him out in front of the jury. That is because she wanted to display that size differential. She wanted to highlight it. That was an effective tactic in the cross examination.
And the third thing that happened was the description of the incident itself. I thought she effectively painted a picture where the victim is on the ground and is holding the wrist and the defendant, who is 270 pounds, said he couldn't get away from the 156- pound man who was just holding his wrist and was essentially kicking his knees. She made him look not credible in that and that was an important aspect of the cross.
HARRIS: Very interesting. I was wondering why the demonstration she was asking for was protested and then not allowed. That her tactic, trying to get him out in front of a jury to show how big he is. Interesting.
ALKSNE: Sure, if she could have gotten him to show her by attacking her she would have done it and that would have been that much better. The judge wasn't going to allow that.
HARRIS: Hang tight, Cynthia, let's go back to the courtroom.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
CALKINS: And you walk out?
JUNTA: Yes.
CALKINS: Mr. Costin is still face up on the ground where you left him, wasn't he?
JUNTA: There was a couple people around him.
CALKINS: And they were doing CPR on him?
JUNTA: No, not at that time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No further questions, you honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much Mr. Junta. Please step down.
HARRIS: All right, let's bring Cynthia back. That was a quick one. The prosecution has now wrapped up its cross-examination of Thomas Junta.
Cynthia, why do you think the defense did not come back to recross here or to reexamine after that cross examination.
ALKSNE: Because they want it to be over. If they reexamine on any point, the prosecution can recross and she can have another shot at him. The minute they say no questions, it is over and he can get off the stand.
HARRIS: Interesting. What do you make of the photo evidence that was brought out this time around. Any hits made there?
ALKSNE: Excuse me, the photo evidence.
HARRIS: It seemed to me that it was not all that dramatic. I don't know what they were trying to accomplish with that. ALKSNE: She is obviously going to use it on summation and she wanted to make sure that Mr. Costin -- I'm sorry Mr. Junta, was in evidence. My instinct about that was, you know, it was sort of a warm-up. When you are nervous it's the equivalent of a batter at the plate. There is a lot of shuffling of the feet and moving around, and some of the time something simple like going back to photographs can calm you down so you can begin to collect your thoughts.
HARRIS: All right, main thing now, big question: We have heard now finally, Thomas Junta describe in detail his view of what happened in that fight. What is your thinking right now about how that jibes with the other descriptions we have heard so about what happened in that fight, both from children as well as adults watching it?
ALKSNE: As you know in any emotional situation like this, when somebody dies right in front of you, people have different views of the same incident. It doesn't surprise me that there were conflicting views.
Nor does it surprise me, of course Mr. Junta was going to say that it was a self-defense case. That is what the whole case is about. We knew that from Jump Street he was going to say that.
The question is how will the jury resolve it in the end, and my guess is they will balance the credibility of this kid Carr, who said Mr. Costin started it. With Mrs. Blanchard, who said Mr. Junta started it, and weigh in the medical testimony, and Mr. Junta himself. I thought he painted a very sympathetic witness and did a fine job for himself, but the prosecution scored some very serious hits on cross- examination.
HARRIS: My question to you though, is, when it comes down to the description of the incidents that happened here, it seems as they were so divergent that you have got to think that somebody here is not telling the truth. I don't know...
ALKSNE: I don't get that sense. I get the sense that it was such an emotionally charged incident, I mean, I would hope that you would never watch anybody die in front of you, or another man beat somebody to death in front of his own children. And that colors what your brain does. The jury's decision is to figure out what part of it is colored from emotion and what part of described Costin as happened.
HARRIS: But Junta described Costin as if he were some sort of Tazmanian devil. He is basically saying the man was going berserk he was going crazy. And we haven't heard that before.
ALKSNE: No. Of course he is going to say that and the jurors understand that the person who is on trial for the 20 years is going to exaggerate the threat little bit. It is somewhere in between. The question is: Does the jury think Mr. Junta was such a big bully who was so out of control and enraged that perhaps he doesn't even remember what happened. He was so enraged and taking advantage of his size.
Remember what the injuries are here. We have gotten away from that expert from a couple days, but he essentially hit him so hard and so many times that he tore the ligaments at the base of his neck so that his head was barely connected to his neck and he had deep bruising in his brain and he has these huge massive hands and huge body and Mr. Costin was a skinny guy. He was a sassy guy, but he was skinny.
The jury will have to make a decision even if Costin came up to his chest or even if Costin came at him in the beginning, did he overreact and use deadly force when he didn't need to?
HARRIS: And you bring up another one of the oddities here, this description of Costin holding on with one hand, holding onto Junta's left hand and basically pretty much holding him at bay with one hand, pretty hard to do that.
ALKSNE: Right. At the same time he was sitting on his heels. It didn't make a lot of sense. You would think somebody would be off balance. In fact it makes more sense, the other witnesses who said that Mr. Junta was over Mr. Costin and leaning on his body as he beat him. And those are the kinds of little details that will be discussed at length in summation. And this is an important summation case.
HARRIS: Yes, well we are getting pretty close to it because I have just been told that they have broken up things there in that court room, not. There will be no more testimony. No more witnesses are going to be called. You see there the scene in the courtroom in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The closing arguments are going to be give tomorrow, starting tomorrow, so we will have coverage of that, no doubt right here and we will get a chance to see exactly how these two sides wrap things up.
Cynthia, final thought, after having seen this whole thing and seen how both sides have sparred, if you had wager here, who do you think as drawn the most blood, if I can use that analogy.
ALKSNE: Boy, it is hard to say that. One of the interesting overlays of this case that isn't in the courtroom but it is a factor, perhaps you remember, there's was a nanny-shaking baby case several years ago that was from this district attorney's office that did the charging.
HARRIS: That's right.
ALKSNE: In that case the district attorney's office was criticized for overcharging, and charging a first degree murder. That may be the overlay on why in this case, the defendant is charged with manslaughter and not murder. This jury doesn't have a choice, like the jury in the nanny case did between first, second and manslaughter.
The top count it's an interesting overlay for loyal viewers of courtrooms trials in America.
HARRIS: Yes, and this poetic couple of families are going to have a very nervous night to get through tonight. Cynthia Alksne, thanks much. We appreciate the insight as usual. Hopefully we will get it again tomorrow after the close arguments get under way and wrap up tomorrow. So take care. We will see you then.
ALKSNE: Thank you.
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