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CNN Live Event/Special
Post Debate Analysis; Interviews with Sen. Elizabeth (D-MA) Warren, Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D-MN), Mayor Pete Buttigieg (D-FL) and Sen. Kamala Harris (D-CA). Aired 11:05p-12a ET
Aired October 15, 2019 - 23:05 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:05:00]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Jake Tapper at the Democratic debate here at Westerville, Ohio.
Tonight, a shift in the dynamics on stage. Whatever Democratic voters out there might think. It seemed clear who the Democratic presidential candidates think is the front runner. And it's Senator Warren. She was the one taking most of the incoming fire this evening as all of the candidates made their case on healthcare and foreign policy, impeachment and who among them can beat Donald Trump.
I'm here with Chris Cuomo. We're going to be joined by several of the candidates you saw on stage this evening. But first, let's bring in our team of great political minds and get their thoughts. John King, let me start with you. Your take away?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Without a doubt I agree that the other candidates on that stage clearly thought it was in their best interest to go after Elizabeth Warren. To go after her and Medicare for all, to go after her economic views, to go after her more broadly, and the idea that they think especially from the moderates too far left. We'll take the country in a way that you can't win in Ohio and across the Midwest.
The vice president was almost an afterthought. Joe Biden in this debate, which is striking in that the early debate people viewed him as the front runner. the last thing I would say there's a lot to talk about.
But the aggressive posture from Amy Klobuchar, Pete Buttigieg and Cory Booker. We've had a three-way race at the top for months now of Warren, Biden and Sanders. Someone has an opportunity.
Iowa votes in 11 days. Somebody else is going to have an opportunity and I think the three of them and especially the two more moderate candidates, Klobuchar and Buttigieg much more aggressive and essentially going after Warren, and to a degree Bernie Sanders saying you can't do this. The Democratic Party can't win this way. Can they sell that to the Democratic voters? That's the big question. But much more passion and ideology from them tonight in drawing the contrast.
TAPPER: Nia? NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: I think that's
right. Folks who were worried about Bernie Sanders and whether or not he could stand on stage for three hours after having a heart attack. He was good tonight. He was strong. He was right along there with Elizabeth Warren making the case for big and bold changes.
Klobuchar, I thought had a great night. She had some fantastic lines against Elizabeth Warren essentially saying reality check, Elizabeth Warren. That's what it was all night for Elizabeth Warren. Basically, people are trying to attack her on healthcare. I think she was pretty weak on healthcare. She was better on the wealth tax.
Pete fantastic I think against especially Tulsi Gabbard. Fantastic also against Beto O'Rourke on the issue of Syria, as well as guns. So, we'll see if he can start to make a move and broaden his base. Right? We know that he's good with college educated white voters, not as strong with other voters. And we'll see if tonight he made a difference.
TAPPER: David Axelrod?
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: What's interesting as Jon pointed out is that Buttigieg, Klobuchar, they are really vying for votes that Joe Biden has right now in supporters that he has, center left voters. And you don't get them by going after Joe Biden. You get them by drawing a contrast with the front runner Elizabeth Warren and establishing yourself as credible alternatives to her. To the extent they gain it could be at Biden's expense.
TAPPER: Gloria?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, I think that the attack that -- well, actually Joe Biden attacked Elizabeth Warren at one point which we're not used to joe Biden going on the attack here because he wants everyone to get along. But he said vague, you know. And it was very clear that she -- he meant that she was vague on explaining how she's going to pay for Medicare for all.
And that was a refrain. We heard from Amy Klobuchar. As John mentioned, Pete Buttigieg I think had a very strong night. I think in some ways, Buttigieg explains Biden better than Biden explains Biden. They were on the same kind of wavelength tonight but Buttigieg is so crisp and sharp. And Biden has some problems that way.
But she was clearly, Elizabeth Warren was the one that was being attacked not Joe Biden as much as Warren.
TAPPER: Now what do you think, Jess? First of all, just the general question. Was Elizabeth Warren able to take a punch? Because this is the first time we really saw a lot of people going after her and her proposals.
[23:10:03]
JESS MCINTOSH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. And I think absolutely she was. I think she was strong throughout the debate. Probably the weakest in the very beginning when there was sort of a pile on Medicare for all. But by the end she seemed not just capable of taking a punch by landing a counter one at the same time.
When Joe Biden made that crack about you were good enough at your job when he was talking about setting up the CFPB which was the federal agency that Elizabeth Warren created --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: I think he said you did a good job.
MCINTOSH: He did a good job at your job.
TAPPER: Yes.
MCINTOSH: It was a little bit like you're a likable enough Hillary moment. And I think women see that and just cringe. Like everybody has had that sort of moment in a workplace and we got to see it on the debate tonight and she used it well.
TAPPER: What do you think, Van?
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Elizabeth Warren. Mortal. Mortal. Somebody grab the cape and pulled on it and survived. Pete, Klobuchar, it was amazing to see the moderates said you know what, enough. We're tired of the woke-a-nomics. We want to actually have a voice here.
And I thought that Pete you got a new candidate in this race. Pistol Pete. Passionate Pete. Not that polite Pete. He was tough on Syria. He was tough on guns. He went back at folks.
So, I thought that that you might see a match up going forward if Biden fades between a Pete and a Warren. It will be very, very interesting.
I was so glad to see Bernie. I was surprised of feelings I had to see him out there. Just to come out there and do a good job and also to be able -- you know, frankly, this guy had more energy, he was more coherent than Biden. This guy just had a heart attack and he is older than Biden. So, look, I thought it was a great night for the Democratic Party.
AXELROD: Newly repaired.
TAPPER: Newly repaired why he's probably in better shape now than he was two weeks ago because he had the surgery.
HENDERSON: Right.
JONES: Hey listen. I thought, you know, Bernie did a great job tonight. I think a lot of people don't give him the credit that he deserves. Anybody can walk out there and did what he did tonight he deserves a lot of credit. But Pete did his thing tonight.
TAPPER: Kirsten, what do you think? KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. I agree about Bernie. And
I think a lot of times he doesn't get enough credit. And it is pretty impressive, you know, for all the people that want to talk about his age and his health, you know. He's as passionate and I think clear on his positions as ever.
I think that actually everybody is getting better. That's what it seems like. And so, you know, there wasn't a lot of times there's some stumbles. Even Biden I think had a very good night. I think maybe it was his best night. Some of that is because he wasn't in the crosshairs so he wasn't having to fend off a lot. But at the same time, I think he was coherent, you know, pretty much throughout.
And I think that Warren did a good job being in the crosshairs and it really was a pile on. I mean, everybody was going after her. And it wasn't flawless. You know, she dodged a little bit on, you know, paying for Medicare for all. But overall, I think that she still came out very strong.
And I do think that Mayor Pete had an incredible night and Amy Klobuchar really, I think, you know, for anybody who spent a time with her you kind of got to see the Amy Klobuchar that you know, which is she's very funny and she's very smart and aggressive and that really came through.
AXELROD: You know, the thing is that they -- the thing about both of them is for three debates they would not engage with their opponent. They would not take Elizabeth Warren on directly on Medicare for all. They sort of skirted around it. And I think for both of them it was really important.
For Buttigieg, you know, he has enchanted (Ph) a lot of goodwill and he's doing very well in Iowa. Now moving in Iowa. But there is this question about can he be the alpha dog? And tonight, by engaging as he did, he took a big step forward there. Whether it's enough I don't know but it was a very --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: I just want to --
BORGER: Well, he also engaged O'Rourke. I mean, they had a huge spat over guns as we predicted they would, but he was very tough.
AXELROD: I think his oratory as a veteran --
BORGER: Yes.
AXELROD: -- on what the meaning of the withdrawal from Syria was --
BORGER: Right.
HENDERSON: Yes.
AXELROD: -- it was one of the best moments of the night. TAPPER: And John, I just want to -- we're talking about Bernie
Sanders earlier and that he had a strong night people thought. He said that he's going to be having an event in Queens where he has a special guest.
And CNN has learned according to sources that special guest is going to be Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She is the freshwoman phenom from that part of the country, that part of New York. She is going to be endorsing Bernie Sanders.
And I'm also told sources say that Ilhan Omar and Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib, Congresswoman Omar, Congresswoman Tlaib from Minnesota and Michigan respectively also are going to be endorsing Bernie Sanders. So even if he's not a headline and of this evening he has some headlines coming.
KING: It's an extension of what we see tonight. A debate about not only who is going to lead the party but where is the party going to go. Which part of the party is going to lead the party into the 2020 election? They are more of the younger fresher face, more aggressive, more liberal, less compromising, less talk about working with Republicans.
And one of the questions for Bernie Sanders has been in a very different race this time. Can he find a lane to victory? There is no doubting he is fund raising. There is no doubting the depth of his support across the country. But is it in the teens, can he get into 20s? How do you win? That will certainly help him.
[23:15:07]
But it will also, I think Senator Klobuchar is coming in to join us now. Have some of the other candidates say wait a minute. You know, is this too far left? Is this too uncompromising. Is it too urban, is it too internet? Does the Democratic Party need to find a broader audience? It is going to stoke the very debate we saw play on the stage tonight
TAPPER: And as we wait for Senator Klobuchar to get mic up --
(CROSSTALK)
AXELROD: I just -- I'm sorry, Gloria. Go ahead.
BORGER: No. Actually, I want to say something about Senator Klobuchar. So maybe you can listen.
But the thing to me tonight as you know, you have AOC endorsing Berne Sanders. the thing -- maybe. The thing to me tonight is the moderates fighting back. And the moderates saying as Amy Klobuchar said, your idea is not the only idea. I don't know if that was a planned line. Was that a planned line. But that --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Well, let's -- now she's mic up. BORGER: Yes.
TAPPER: So, we'll turn our attention to Senator Klobuchar.
AXELROD: There is no which lines we're playing.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: OK. Yes. Please, let's analyze everything I said.
TAPPER: Well, you were more aggressive this evening. Right? You can acknowledge that a little bit more aggressive in terms of challenging some of the other candidates --
(CROSSTALK)
KLOBUCHAR: Well, I'm not going to do a strategic analysis of this, except to say I have said from the beginning that I don't want to be the president for half of America. I want to be the president for all of America.
And I've said at several debates that, you know, people are tired of the noise and nonsense and the extremes. They've got a home with me. And it's a home where not I have won consistently in the Midwest. But I also I'm someone that's gotten things done. Passed over 100 bills as a lead Democrat.
And I just think it was time to make that point as well as the fact that there's not just one idea out there.
TAPPER: Right.
KLOBUCHAR: There are many. And I would have loved to talk about a bunch of other things like free college and those things. I just think that there's a smarter way for us to bring people with us with bold ideas.
TAPPER: So, Senator Cory Booker seemed upset, distressed that there were disagreements going on, on stage. And that people were saying things that could be used against the eventual nominee. How much did that thought come across your head?
KLOBUCHAR: Well, I actually thought it was an excellent debate. I thought that it was a cordial debate. I think it was our most cordial debate honestly as far as Democratic primary debates with 12 people go.
But people were warm to each other and they have disagreements on policy. That's what this is about. And do I wish that we could have focused more on some of economic issues? Sure. Talk about education. There will be other times.
But I think what we have to remember is that if we're going to bring people in and win big, we've got to focus on the things that matter to them. Take the case to Donald Trump. That went on a lot tonight. And then also understand that there's not just one way of doing business. And just because you think something different like I do. Like I don't
want to kick 149 million Americans off of their health insurance in four years. Well, that doesn't mean that my ideas aren't good. And we really needed to make the point because too many times Elizabeth and others have been saying you're not fighting for things. That's not true. I'm just fighting for what I consider a better way to get this done.
TAPPER: So how do you respond to the criticism from progressives, which I understand is a chunk of your party but not your entire party, not even a majority necessarily of the Democratic Party base. How do you respond to the criticism that when you call Medicare for all, for instance, a pipe dream that you're not going to take advantage in terms of motivating young progressives to get them out to vote?
KLOBUCHAR: Well, first of all, the one candidate that led a ticket that had the highest voting turn out in the country on that stage, me. Last time. Huge turn out with young people in the state of Minnesota. And we did it by focusing on issues that matter to them including making college affordable. Doing something about gun safety. Doing something about climate change. So, the facts just don't hold that up. They just don't hold it up.
TAPPER: Van is eager to ask you a question.
JONES: Well, your passion was a different gear. You may not know it but it was obvious, man. And I wonder are you afraid that the party is going in a direction that is just going to get us killed here in the middle of the country? Is there something that you're aware of now that you're seeing the (Inaudible) of Elizabeth Warren and some of her other ideas that has you afraid?
KLOBUCHAR: Well, let me make clear. First, I have a lot of respect for Elizabeth and she had some good ideas. And I love that she's joining me in talking about antitrust and talking about the tech companies and some of these other things. That is all great.
But my key here is that we must come together in the end. And I think she's a person that will do that. We just have to figure out who the best candidate. I think it's me. And I am not one bit worried about that. I just think that we have debates for a reason.
JONES: Yes.
KLOBUCHAR: And in the end we can come together.
AXELROD: Senator, can I just ask.
KLOBUCHAR: Yes.
AXELROD: This is your -- this is the fourth debate. You've been on all four debate stages. You had a great night tonight. But you're in danger of not being on the next debate stage. Why haven't people heard this message through these other debates and through this year of campaigning?
[23:19:59]
KLOBUCHAR: Well, I love to say I've tried. I've tried. I mean, come on. I announce my candidacy in a middle of a blizzard.
(CROSSTALK)
AXELROD: That was hard core.
KLOBUCHAR: So, the last debate I made it very clear that I had grit and I was going to keep this up. I come from the state that's not as big as theirs. I come from a lot less name identification. I didn't have these huge lists they had because I didn't run for president before. And I hadn't plan it because I was doing my job in the U.S. Senate. I think that's what we want right now. We don't need the loudest voice in the room. We want something different.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Do you --
BORGER: Do you think, Senator --
KLOBUCHAR: And by the way, I can change those numbers if people just sign up at amyklobuchar.com.
AXELROD: Yes.
BORGER: Do you think Senator Warren answered the question about how she's going to pay for Medicare for all tonight?
KLOBUCHAR: No, not even close. And as I said, I think that Bernie has answered that question. He's made that very clear. And I think it's one of the things --
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: Taxes.
KLOBUCHAR: -- that she needs to do.
TAPPER: So, let me ask you a question. Because her answer basically is, I'm not going to answer that question so that it's used in a Republican clip if I'm the nominee. But we all know what she's saying. Maybe everybody here maybe not necessarily voters. But we all know that she's saying look, costs for middle class people will go down. But yes, taxes will go up. It's not as much as they are playing in premiums and out of pocket expenses, et cetera.
KLOBUCHAR: well, first of all, she should just put it out there. Because we have a president that's added trillions of dollars in debt and that's going to matter in the general election. I plan on focusing on that.
He had a tax bill that he boasted about that added over a trillion dollars in debt. So, I think we need to show that we keep our promises. And that we're going to whittle away at that debt while we fund these things. And there's ways you do it. And I put -- I have showed how I'm going to pay for every single thing I put out there. Because I think we have to be accountable for that. Show your math. Show your work.
HENDERSON: Senator Klobuchar --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: So, I want to have -- to take a break. I'm sorry. But Senator Klobuchar, congratulations --
(CROSSTALK)
KLOBUCHAR: Thank you, Jake.
TAPPER: -- on your debate performance this evening. We're going to -- Pete Buttigieg I'm told is sitting aside with Chris Cuomo right now.
KLOBUCHAR: Good.
TAPPER: This is just getting started. We'll be right back. Stay with us.
[23:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right. A big night here in Ohio. We're joined by Mayor Pete Buttigieg. Good buzz about your performance. Why do you think?
MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think because an opportunity to demonstrate the message in my campaign and this idea that we can't wait. We have an opportunity on issues from immigration to economic, to guns, to climate, to make something happen. We cannot get caught up in purity tests, we can't get absorb fighting each other.
We got a chance to actually make this happen. And I was glad that I had the opportunity to lay out the differences that I have with my competitors and drive forward a message that I think is the one to unify and advance our country at the same time.
CUOMO: So, a little more of a pivot of we have to beat somebody in the form of this president. Here's why I think the timing is now. Here are the choices. Warren was a target for you and others. Why?
BUTTIGIEG: Well, because I think her vision tries to get that purity. And at the same time, we can do really bold things right now. But not if we get caught up in that.
Look, you take something like Medicare for all, right. When we propose Medicare for all who want it. The idea is that we trust the American people to choose. If we can deliver that and others, everybody gets care one way or the other, public or private --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: She says it only means if you can afford it.
BUTTIGIEG: Yes.
CUOMO: You're doing a means test.
BUTTIGIEG: It's just not true. I mean, we're going to make sure that everybody can get covered. That's the whole point. The difference is if you do want the private coverage, and by the way, there's a lot of union members, for example, who have negotiated for private coverage. It's good. It's part of their compensation.
And why should we command them to adopt a public plan. I mean, after all the public plan is better. And I think for most people it will be. But if it's better everybody is going to migrate to it on their own. And for some reason for some families it's not, then we're going to be really glad we didn't command them to switch when they didn't want to.
And I think the more Americans understand the difference between our views on this, the more they'll understand that where I'm coming from is incredibly bold. And the sense that it's the most aggressive and results oriented thing we've done on healthcare in 50 years. But unlike Medicare for all where you wanted it or not it doesn't entail further polarizing the country or kicking a bunch of people off their plans.
CUOMO: Do you think that the general election is going to be about the best healthcare plan?
BUTTIGIEG: Well, it's definitely going to be big. I mean, we hear this as an issue all the time but it's not only going to be about that. I think more than anything people want to know how their personal lives are going to be affected by politics.
I mean here in Ohio it's about jobs. It's about the economy. But not just how the economy is doing as numbers on a page. It's how the economy is doing for us. Right? People sitting at home trying to figure out how to make ends meet. Pay the bills where the cost of retirement and health insurance. Education is going through the roof.
Even when the Dow Jones is looking good it's not really working that way for us. And I think people want to know how these decisions are going to affect them.
CUOMO: One question and then I want to open it up to the better minds.
The idea of the moderators asking Bernie how he feels. Legit question. Talking to Bernie and Biden and even Warren about age. Legit. Tulsi Gabbard about being the youngest. That was kind of, you know, an offsetting fairness question.
I thought you were going to jump in and say listen, it's not about health, it's about perspective.
BUTTIGIEG: Yes.
CUOMO: Because you always say in interviews, I don't see things the way these people see things.
BUTTIGIEG: That's right.
CUOMO: You didn't jump in. Why?
BUTTIGIEG: That's my view on this. Look, I think that anybody at any age can prove they're healthy enough for the presidency by surviving the rigors of the presidential campaign. This is about vision. And what I did every chance I got tonight was explain how my vision is different.
I don't believe that we can go back to normal. I definitely don't believe that fighting is all it takes to move us forward. Of course, we got to fight for what we believe.
CUOMO: So, the stick will be, the counter stick is where do you get the confidence? You know, like Joe Biden, I've done it. I've done it. I've done it. Bernie, I kept it from happening. I kept it from happening. And Warren saying, I've done both. They look at you and say yes, all right, you're young. Different perspective.
BUTTIGIEG: Yes.
CUOMO: You don't have the bone fides.
BUTTIGIEG: Well, first of all, you don't go from mayor of South Bend, Indiana to major presidential candidate in a matter of months if there's not something to your vision that is moving the American people.
And in addition to all the stuff I could talk about my governing record as mayor, my service record as a member of the military. I think more than anything it's a vision that's going to matter the most.
[23:30:01]
This is about where our country is headed. And I'm asking people to really picture that first day after Trump is president. Because there's still so much more focus on him. And we certainly have to beat him.
[23:30:00]
But this is a competition to be the president who's going to move America past the Trump era. That's going to take a lot. Not just fight it, but the ability to unify the American people, too.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Why -- I have a question specifically on Senator Warren's answer to you on "Medicare for All" and how she will pay for it. But just broadly, why did you think it was so important to go after Senator Warren tonight in way that you haven't before?
BUTTIGIEG: I think people really need to understand the difference in policy and the difference in vision, because "Medicare for All" is being sold to a lot of folks who think it means Medicare for all --
BASH: That difference existed in the first three debates.
BUTTIGIEG: What's it?
BASH: That difference existed --
BUTTIGIEG: Yeah. What I'm finding is people still aren't getting it. So tonight was my opportunity to really lay it out. If people didn't understand that distinction, it could mean that I've got to do more work as I did tonight to lay it out.
Most Americans who say they want "Medicare for All" say they want it alongside the option of private plan, which is of course exactly what I'm proposing, not what Senator Warren is proposing. I got to make sure I do my job and lay out the difference and educate folks on my plan.
BASH: So, her answer to your question about whether or not she would raise middle class taxes in order to pay for "Medicare for All," she said, I will not sign a bill into law that does not lower costs for middle class families. Is that an answer to you?
BUTTIGIEG: Certainly it wasn't a yes or no answer to a yes or no question. You can see that there's a gaping hole in the plan. I mean, she's got a plan for everything but not this. We have not seen how this is supposed to be --
BASH: She went a little further there though in saying that she would not sign a law that raises costs.
BUTTIGIEG: Still did nothing to explain what's going to happen to taxes. And even with a middle class tax increase that in Senator Sanders's proposal, which as I understand it, she is supporting, there is still a gap of trillions and trillions of dollars and no explanation for where it is supposed to come from.
And the thing we got to remember here is we can deliver health care for everybody. We can deliver college for low and middle income students free. We can deliver all of these really ambitious and transformative proposals that are going to make people's lives different without breaking the bank.
But that means being smart about what we're promising up front and it's one of the difference between me and Senator Warren and some of the others.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: David?
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: So, you mentioned that purity tests are not something that you think the Democratic Party should be (INAUDIBLE). What purity test, do you think, Senator Warren is applying in this race right now?
BUTTIGIEG: Certainly the idea that "Medicare for All" doesn't count unless it obliterates private plans. I think that's a purity test that is the wrong policy and also is going to turn off a lot of American voters when we have an opportunity to do something huge.
Again, we deliver a public alternative where every American gets either public coverage or private coverage but nobody gets left behind. That is the biggest thing we will have done to U.S. health care since the invention of Medicare itself. This is not exactly a half measure.
And so the idea that that doesn't count unless we also obliterate the private plans, it is just like the idea that major immigration reform doesn't count unless we decriminalize border crossing or, you know, a major package of reforms on gun law don't count unless we are going even further. This is the kind of stuff that gets us trapped to where we could wind up with nothing at all.
CHALIAN: But you said when presented with sort of the -- the question, I think, was about big structural change versus getting things done in a more evolutionary way. You pushed back and said that that was a false choice --
BUTTIGIEG: That's right.
CHALIAN: -- but you don't seem to think it's a false choice because you're saying the purity test might make it harder to defeat Donald Trump. No?
BUTTIGIEG: I'm saying that the purity test will make it harder to unify the American people. It's not about winning an election. It's about what comes next. This is why I keep emphasizing what it's going to be like in this country after Trump. By definition, we are all competing to be that president, picking up the pieces as this country figures out what to do next.
And here we have this chance to tackle in a really big way, I would argue with structural way, some of the problems that have gone unsolved for decades. And if we do it the way that I'm proposing, we do without deepening the division and the polarization because we have a new American majority for these things.
Even issues where we have been on defense, there is a new American majority to do something real on guns, to do something comprehensive on immigration, to do something bold on health. And yet there are folks on the stage saying, well, none of that counts unless you go even further. We got enough polarization, enough division, and enough inaction in this country right now.
ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You have arrived at this point by increasing your standing through funding and polling, kind of out of nowhere candidate. But how do you get to that next step? What is the next phase of the Buttigieg campaign that will -- that will allow you to kind of see a coalition because --
BUTTIGIEG: Yeah. HERNDON: -- that includes non-white voters, that includes non-college educated, the places where you are currently struggling.
BUTTIGIEG: The number one thing I got to do is make it possible for people to picture how their lives are different with me as president versus any of my competitors. Some of big cultural things for the country, making sure we establish a sense of belonging. A lot of policies that are going to deliver for people and not further divide us.
[23:35:00]
BUTTIGIEG: Tonight was an excellent opportunity for me to make that clear largely in the context of health care but in a lot of different areas. That's what we got to go out and do. That and, of course, a big part of this is ground game.
We now got the most field offices in Iowa. We got terrific teams in New Hampshire, Nevada, and South Carolina that are going to be engaging more and more voters on the campuses, reaching out in different and diverse communities and inviting them to be part of this campaign.
You know, most people who go on to win, they are right about where I am now, if you look already where the poll before the year of the election. Our job is to, of course, go in and close the deal.
CUOMO: Do you really believe that everybody on the stage can beat President Trump?
BUTTIGIEG: I'm not so sure. And I think that in order to win and in order to deserve to win, we've got to answer the fundamental problems that Donald Trump took advantage of to take over the Republican Party and get elected and we got to find a way to do it. The people can see where they fit and it unites the country.
Look, we're never going to win everybody over. But I think it means a lot that with incredibly progressive proposals, I'm also getting Republicans saying that they would support me because they're so disgusted with what's happening in the Trump White House.
CUOMO: You must hear -- it's always a little different when you're the candidate, but you must know if you don't hear it yourself, that the main dialogue going on in your party is who beats Trump. I don't know that Biden can beat Trump that is why Warren is coming up. Maybe Sanders can't do it. That's the conversation.
BUTTIGIEG: Right.
CUOMO: Do you think it would helpful to Wesley's (ph) point about coming to the next level of saying, look, I like so and so, but he/she cannot beat Donald Trump, arguing what he/she are arguing right now. I know how to win. I may be young but I'm smart. Here's how. Do you think that's needed?
BUTTIGIEG: Oh, yeah. I was in the backyard in New Hampshire. A guy after my stump speech said, you know, you seem great, but I would vote for my neighbors dog if I thought that's who could beat Donald Trump more than any of the others. So this is a really important issue on voters' minds.
To me, the most important thing is to explain why you deserve to be president and then work backward for why that is also going to help you win. But I am going to explain why I am best positioned to beat Donald Trump. A lot of that is the fact that I am embracing bolder forms that don't mean alienating a huge chunk of the American people.
And also, let's look at history here. Every single time the Democratic Party has won at least in the last 50 years or so, it's been with somebody from a new generation, calling America to higher values, including more people in the coalition, and somebody who hadn't been on the national scene for too long and wasn't a product of Washington. Every time we have done something else, we come up short.
BASH: Can I just ask one thing --
BUTTIGIEG: Please.
BASH: -- I'm dying to know? You looked like you are getting so much off your chest when you turned to Beto O'Rourke and you said I don't need a lesson from you on courage, political or personal. You look like it felt good to say that. Am I wrong? Am I reading that right?
BUTTIGIEG: Well, I just had to make my point and then move on to what I think is most important, which is that we unify and take it to the NRA. Look, we have the NRA right where we want them. And we have an opportunity. I think it's personal for everybody on that stage in different ways certainly --
BASH: That wasn't just about the NRA.
BUTTIGIEG: What's that?
BASH: That wasn't just about the NRA.
BUTTIGIEG: It's about moving forward and it's about getting past these politics and actually making something happen. Look, the idea that we are able to deliver on assault weapons ban and universal background checks and red flag laws that have been talked about literally for as long as I can remember, that is an amazing thing. We got to focus on that. I took the opportunity to restore the focus on that.
CUOMO: Mayor Pete, appreciate you being with us. Congratulations on tonight, making it through. It was history. You know, we have never seen 12 and we probably won't see it again.
BUTTIGIEG: We got through it together.
CUOMO: Thank you for joining us afterwards. Good luck to rest of the night. All right, so, Cory Booker just got seated next to Jake Tapper. We're going to get as much perspective from the people on the stage as possible. We'll be right back here in Ohio after this break. Stay with CNN.
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[23:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Welcome back. With me as you can see is New Jersey Senator Cory Booker. Senator, thanks so much for joining us.
SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm grateful, man.
TAPPER: It did seem like there's a lot of criticism of Elizabeth Warren, especially coming from candidates that might be vying for more of the moderation -- the moderate lane kind of Buttigieg, Klobuchar. I'm not asking you to be a pundit here, but were you surprised at how much incoming there was at her, especially because you were criticizing people for doing it?
BOOKER: Yeah. Look, everybody has to defend their record, but how we do it, what you say about other people often says more about you. I just want to be one of those people on the stage continuing to remind folks we can fight over policy issues, which has the better idea, but we must do it in a way that ultimately we can unify at the end of all of this and be standing together.
I saw this last election and I thought that that was a really weakness in our party. We couldn't come together after our primary.
TAPPER: You seemed especially distressed about it, if I may say, after Beto O'Rourke seemed to suggest that Elizabeth Warren wanted to punish billionaires. It wasn't just a wealth tax. She was trying to be punitive.
BOOKER: Look, at the end of the day, we have a serious tax problem in this country, and we are letting the wealthiest continue get tax break after tax break, just straining the reality in our country that we need revenue. We have major deficit problems, and we need to get back to investing in each other.
Infrastructure, education, research and development -- we have a lot of work to do. So talking about that is really important. I just want to keep coming back to the fact that the differences between us and Democrats are so small compared to the goal (ph) that is between us and the president of the United States.
How we treat each other could either play ultimately as coming together or could play to the benefit of Donald Trump. I just don't want to give him any advantage by doing the work of the RNC. We got to build to have differences but do it in a way that ultimately we can unify after this election.
TAPPER: It's -- we're getting close-ish to Iowa.
BOOKER: Yeah. TAPPER: And still the top three candidates are Elizabeth Warren, Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders, according to polls, not just national polls but state by state, suggests that it pretty consistently stayed at those top three. Why do you think that you have had trouble breaking through so far?
BOOKER: Again, every single presidential election of my lifetime, the person who goes on to the presidency is at this point polling way behind.
[23:45:02]
BOOKER: Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton. Even Barack Obama, it was like 10 to 20 points behind Secretary Clinton. So that doesn't worry me. What worries me is the kind of team that we're building in those early primary states.
Right now, we actually lead in endorsements of local elected leaders in Iowa and New Hampshire. We are building an organization and arguably one of the top two there are. If we can keep raising money, which is going to be our biggest issue --
TAPPER: Right.
BOOKER: -- that is why we are inviting people who want me to stay in this to go to corybooker.com. If we can keep raising the money to field the team, we can do what so many other presidential candidates have done. John Kerry polling at four percent goes on to win in Iowa, goes on to the nomination, an offset by Barack Obama, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton.
We think that this election is going to be won by the people who have the best organization and a message of unity, a message of civic grace as I keep calling it, but the kind of spirit that not only unify our party but do the difficult work of healing our nation, bringing people together.
Because I think people are just tired. Republicans tell me this. They are tired of what they're seeing in the White House. This is fatiguing, I think, this soul of our country. We're yearning in the same way after Richard Nixon. The people were yearning for a candidate that talk about grace as Jimmy Carter did. And so that's the spirit that I'm trying to bring to this.
By the way, people want to fight fire with fire candidate. I ran a fire department as a mayor. I don't think it is best strategy, but I'm not the guy. I'm putting -- I'm in this race because I believe that we need to restore ideals of civic grace, create new American majorities that not can just beat Donald Trump. That gets out of the valley.
We need to get to the mountain top which means we need to create the larger American majorities necessary to do that. We need the kind of spirit of healing and unity to do that.
TAPPER: I have more questions, but I'm being selfish. Let me bring in some of my colleagues here.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You did two things that are remarkable. One, you were the one guy up there that kept sticking up for women.
BOOKER: Yeah.
JONES: Why was that important? Also, you are the only candidate that keeps talking about poor children. Poor children can't vote.
BOOKER: Yeah.
JONES: I don't think you are pandering
BOOKER: Yeah.
JONES: Why are you sticking up for women and poor kids all the time?
BOOKER: Number one is I was at this rally in front of the Supreme Court for the Alabama case. I just got angry. When I look out at the crowd, it was probably like five or 10 to one, women to men. This cannot be an issue for women to fight alone.
And guys can't say, I'm fighting this issue because I have a daughter or wife or sister. No. This is about the ability for someone to control their own body. Women are --
JONES: (INAUDIBLE).
BOOKER: Right. But the second point, Van, is one that -- you and I have known each other since law school. I moved to Newark, New Jersey. Literally the non-profit that I was going to found trying to get a fellowship was all about young kids.
JONES: I remember that.
BOOKER: Yeah. It was about children in poverty. My hero coming out of college was (INAUDIBLE). We live in this nation where it's a shame. It is violence, poverty. You know this. Poverty is -- it's a point of trauma for children. Poor children are more likely to have environmental hazards or more likely to suffer from addiction, do worse in school. And we don't talk about this in 20 years of --
JONES: You try to be this moral voice, this unifying voice. It comes weird to people because it's such a pugilistic (ph) culture. Do you think that sometimes people misunderstand you because you are talking about hugging babies and kids and women and all this stuff?
BOOKER: Yeah.
JONES: Does it hurt you trying to become the nominee?
BOOKER: No. We laughed about this in Iowa. We do these town halls where I was running up to a debate stage. One big guy, excuse me, I'm a former titan (ph) from Stanford University, and says, dude, I want you to punch Donald Trump in the face. My response, dude, that's a felony. (LAUGHTER)
JONES: Bad idea.
BOOKER: Bad idea. We don't get away with that often.
TAPPER: On that stuff, let me ask you, because a lot of people in the Democratic Party are mad.
BOOKER: Yes.
TAPPER: They're angry.
BOOKER: Yes.
TAPPER: They're angry --
BOOKER: I'm mad and angry.
TAPPER: But they're not just angry at Donald Trump. They're angry at Democrats for being too corporate. They're mad at Democrats --
BOOKER: Yes.
TAPPER: -- for being too compromising. But your message of peace and love and harmony even among the fellow candidates, does that message play with those individuals?
BOOKER: We cannot mistake strength for being cruel, toughness for being mean. There is literally an Oscar nominate documentary about me called "Street Fight." You cannot win against a machine if you're not strong and tough. But the spirit you bring is really important.
Remember, we didn't beat Bull Connor in Birmingham by bringing bigger dogs and bigger fire hoses. The leadership we need in that moral moment are the leaders that call to the moral imagination of a nation that helps us to understand. We saw this in the last election.
We have a president that got as many votes at Mitt Romney did. King said so eloquently, the problem today is not just the vitriolic words and violent actions of the bad people. It's the appalling silence and inaction of the good people.
What we need in our nominee from the Democratic Party is someone that can engage, ignite, and excite the full body of our electorate and even people that are moderate Republicans or independents. I believe I can do that. I believe I'm the toughest fighter.
I have a record for taking on this nation's most difficult problems that people said couldn't solve in the inner gritty city of Newark, New Jersey, and not me solving them, we solve them.
[23:50:04]
BOOKER: That's the spirit I'm bringing --
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: But sometimes watching you in the Senate, you know, you have been angrier in the Senate.
BOOKER: Oh, yeah.
BORGER: Kavanaugh -- you know, you have been angry in the Senate.
BOOKER: Yeah. I remind people of that on the stump.
BORGER: You do?
(CROSSTALK)
BOOKER: -- people want to know that you can do it.
BORGER: But then there is -- but then there is this candidate who is sort of like the middle child of the Democrat Party, saying, why can't we all get along in this family? So it's a little bit of a different Cory Booker than the Cory Booker many of us have --
BOOKER: Not so at all.
BORGER: -- watched or not?
BOOKER: The appeal to (INAUDIBLE) hurts me on the inside.
BORGER: OK.
BOOKER: As a guy who was writing about in college, the fact that we have things that should make us angry -- I get a question often asked is what was your biggest political mistake when I'm on the stump? I tell them about the horrific realities of urban violence in Newark, and how I've made mistakes and let too many of our children slip through the aisles. And it bothers me, the questions that come back around me.
It bothers me that now we are we're talking about the opioid addiction with compassion and treatment but we didn't do that for the crack addiction. It bothers me that we are a nation that wasn't concerned about urban violence and the epidemics of gun violence until we start seeing the spread on the rest of America.
Yeah, I am a person with anger. Martin Luther King was angered. My heroes, Ella Baker, were people that didn't let anger burn them up but let it fuel them, not to engage in hatred and demeaning and degrading behavior, but to call to this country to solve problems in the only way we've really ever done, from the civil rights movement to the women's movement, which is building bigger coalitions, calling people together.
TAPPER: All right, Senator Booker, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.
BOOKER: Thank you.
TAPPER: See you soon. We're going to be back in a moment with another one of the 12 Democrats. Senator Kamala Harris is going to join us, next. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: We're back. We have with us California Democratic Senator Kamala Harris. Senator, thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.
SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Good to be with you.
TAPPER: Did the dynamics on the stage feel different? It felt like a lot more people were going directly at Senator Warren as opposed to Vice President Biden, including you.
HARRIS: Well, the dynamics on the stage are -- the reality, I think, and probably a source of frustration for everybody is we get a minute and 15 seconds to have very serious conversations about topics like Syria, health care. And I think the reality then is that everyone fights for their time to try and be heard and condense what our complex subjects into a, you know, 75-second answer.
TAPPER: So, one of the topics that you chose to talk a lot about, especially confronting Senator Warren on was your push, your call for Twitter to suspend the account of President Trump. Why was that important?
HARRIS: What's important about it is this, Jake, and I say this as a former prosecutor. You have to take seriously witness intimidation. You have to take seriously an attempt to obstruct justice. You have to take seriously a threat to a witness and really to their safety and potentially their life.
And when you're talking about Donald Trump, he has 65 million Twitter followers. He has proven himself to be willing to obstruct justice. Just ask Bob Mueller. You can look at the manifesto from the shooter in El Paso to know that what Donald Trump says on Twitter impacts people's perceptions about what they should and should not do.
And we're talking about a private corporation, Twitter, that has terms of use, and as far as I'm concerned and I think most people would say, including members of Congress who he has threatened --
TAPPER: Mm-hmm.
HARRIS: -- that he has lost his privileges and it should be taken down. The bottom line is that you can't say that you have one rule for Facebook and you have a different rule for Twitter. The same rule has to apply, which is that there has to be a responsibility that is placed on these social media sites to understand their power. They are directly speaking to millions and millions of people without any level of oversight or regulation, and that has to stop.
TAPPER: He is the president of the United States, and I would -- you know, you might argue, first of all, he doesn't --
HARRIS: He does not have a right to commit a crime because he is president of the United States. He does not have the right to threaten witnesses and threaten their safety because he is president of the United States.
In fact, that's the very problem with Donald Trump. He thinks he's above the law, and we cannot keep reinforcing that. And anyone who wants to say, well, this is a matter of free speech, you are not free to threaten the life of a witness. That is a crime.
TAPPER: But how did he threaten the life of a witness? By calling for --
HARRIS: The way that he has talked about this -- the whistleblower.
TAPPER: Whistleblower?
HARRIS: Absolutely.
TAPPER: You think that puts the whistleblower's life in danger?
HARRIS: I absolutely do. Let's remember this has actually been the subject of certainly discussion in the open about what should be the precautions that are taken to ensure the safety of the whistleblower because of a concern about these threats.
TAPPER: So, without disputing that, let me ask you, but then there's a slippery slope, right? I mean, does that mean anybody who writes about the whistleblower, anybody who questions the credibility of the whistleblower, that they shouldn't have their articles, their statements on Twitter read also? I mean, that's where it all starts heading.
HARRIS: I think that is a fine conversation for a law school debate, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about actual words issued by the president of the United States, unfiltered, which have clearly been threatening the life of witnesses to what might be a crime.
TAPPER: And so the other argument that I saw, some Democratic operatives on Twitter asking is, why is this something that an Ohio voter, a Columbus, Ohio voter or voter in Michigan or Iowa or New Hampshire would care about as opposed to other issues that you do talk about on the stump, obviously. Why talk about this issue tonight?
HARRIS: Because it came up.
(LAUGHTER)
TAPPER: Just that --
HARRIS: Because it came up.
