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Now: Third 1/6 Hearing Focuses On Trump's Attempts To Pressure Pence; 1/6 CMTE Shows Never-Before-Seen Photos Of Pence During Insurrection; Jacob: Pence Called Eastman's Suggestions "Rubber Room Stuff". Aired 3-3:30p ET
Aired June 16, 2022 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KEITH KELLOGG, FORMER VP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: Worse. And I don't remember exactly either, but something like that, yes.
LUNA: Do you ...
KELLOGG: Being - like being, you're not tough enough to make the call.
IVANKA TRUMP, FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: It was a different tone than I'd heard him take with the vise president before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Ms. Trump share with you any more details about what had happened or any details about what had happened in the Oval Office that morning?
JULIE RADFORD, FORMER INVANKA TRUMP CHIEF OF STAFF: That her dad had just had an upsetting conversation with the vice president.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recall anything about her demeanor, either during the meeting or when you encountered her in Dan Scavino's office?
ERIC HERSCHMANN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: I don't remember specifically. I mean, I think she was uncomfortable over the fact that there was obviously that type of interaction between the two of them.
LUNA: Something to the effect, this is - the wording's wrong. I made the wrong decision four or five years ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that the word that she relayed to you that the president called the vice president. I apologize for being impolite, but do you remember what she said her father called him?
JULIE RADFORD: The P-word.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PETE AGUILAR (D-CA): Mr. Jacob, how would you describe the demeanor of the vice president following the call - following that call with the president?
GREG JACOB, FORMER COUNSEL TO VP PENCE: When he came back into the room, I'd say that he was steely, determined, grim.
AGUILAR: Of course, the most dangerous part of what Donald Trump did on January 6th was what he did himself is will be discussed in detail in a future hearing. Our investigation found that early drafts of the January 6th Ellipse speech prepared for the president included no mention of the vice president. But the President revised it to include criticism of the Vice President and then further ad libbed. Here's what the President said on January 6th after his call with Vice President Pence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I hope Mike is going to do the right thing. I hope so. I hope so. Because if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election. All Vice President Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify and we become president and you are the happiest people.
And I actually - I just spoke to Mike, I said, "Mike, that doesn't take courage. What takes courage is to do nothing." That takes courage. And then we're stuck with a president who lost the election by a lot and we have to live with that for four more years. We're just not going to let that happen and Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us. And if he doesn't, that will be a sad day for our country.
And they want to re-certify their votes. They want to recertify. But the only way that can happen is if Mike Pence agrees to send it back.
So I hope Mike has the courage to do what he has to do and I hope he doesn't listen to the RINOs and the stupid people that he's listening to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AGUILAR: Of course, we all know what happened next. The President's words had an effect. President Trump's supporters became angry. When the vice president issued his public letter, the crowd at the Capitol erupted in anger. The rioters who had erected makeshift gallows began chanting 'hang Mike Pence'.
Testimony in our investigation has made clear what the target of the rioters ire was, Vice President Mike Pence. The rioters breached the Capitol at 2:13 pm.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: (Inaudible) ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go. Go. Go. Go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go. Go.
CROWD: (Inaudible) ...
(END VIDEO CLIP) AGUILAR: Now, let's take a look at what was going on at the White
House at this time. The president's chief of staff, Mark Meadows, was notified of the violence at the Capitol by 2 pm and likely earlier. The testimony further establishes that Mr. Meadows quickly informed the President that he did so before the President issued his 2:24 pm tweet criticizing Vice President Pence for not having 'courage to do what needed to be done'.
Here's what the President wrote in his 2:24 pm tweet, while the violence at the Capitol was going on and here is what the rioters thought.
[15:05:03]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing but a traitor and he deserves to burn with the rest of them, as I'm ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So if this all escalated after Pence, what will happen to Pence? Pence didn't do what we wanted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pence voted against Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay, and that's when all this started?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yep, that's when we marched on the Capitol. We've been shot out with rubber bullets, tear gas ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just heard that Mike Pence is not going to reject any fraudulent electoral votes.
CROWD: Boo.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are a traitor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Boo.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right. You've heard it here first. Mike Pence has betrayed the United States of America.
CROWD: Boo.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fuck you, Mike Pence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike Pence has betrayed this president and he has betrayed the people of the United States and we will never ever forget.
CROWD: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's real simple, Pence betrayed us which apparently everybody knew he was going to and the President mentioned it like five times when he talked. You can go back and watch the President's video.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is our capitol, let's be respectful to him. That's 4 million people coming in, so there's a lot of control. We love you, guys. We love the cops.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's only a matter of time, justice is coming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AGUILAR: Although the president's chief of staff Mark Meadows has refused to testify before this committee, Mr. Meadows aide, Ben Williamson, and White House Deputy Press Secretary Sarah Matthews testified that Mr. Meadows went to the dining room near the Oval Office to tell the President about the violence at the Capitol before the President's 2:24 pm tweet.
In future hearings, you'll hear more about exactly what was happening in the White House at that time. But here's what some White House staff told the Select Committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know where he went?
BEN WILLIAMSON, FORMER AIDE TO MARK MEADOWS: Yes, I followed him down the hallway and I followed him into the outer oval corridor, which is the hallway between the Oval Office hallway and the outer oval section of the Oval Office. I followed him into that little corridor hallway. I saw him walk into outer oval. I maybe took a step in the outer oval and then left and I don't know where he went outside of that. But it looks like he was headed in the direction of the Oval Office.
SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: We had all talked about at that point about how it was bad and the situation was getting out of hand and I know Ben Williamson, and I were conferring and we thought that the President needed to tweet something and tweet something immediately.
And I think when Kayleigh gave us that order of don't say anything to the media, I told her that I thought the president needed to tweet something. And then I remember then I remember getting a notification on my phone and I was sitting in a room with Roma (ph) and Ben, and we all got a notification. So we knew it was a tweet from the President and we looked down and it was a tweet about Mike Pence.
WILLIAMSON: I believe I had sent him a text saying that we may want to put out some sort of statement because the situation was getting a little hairy over at the Capitol. And then it was common for after I would text him, I would just go down and see him in person.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You went down to speak with Mark Meadows after this. What was that conversation?
WILLIAMSON: Very brief. I went down and told him the same thing I have in the text that I can recall and I don't remember anything that was said between us other than I told him that and to my recollection, he immediately got up and left his office. Our investigation found that immediately after the president's 2:24 pm
tweet, the crowds both outside the Capitol and inside the Capitol surged. The crowds inside the Capitol were able to overwhelm the law enforcement presence and the Vice President was quickly evacuated from his ceremonial Senate office to a secure location within the Capitol complex.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: (Inaudible) ...
[15:10:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By 2:24 pm, the Secret Service had moved Vice President Pence from the Senate chamber to his office across the hall.
CHRIS HODGSON, FORMER PENCE DIRECTOR OF LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS: The noise from the rioters became audible, at which point we recognize that maybe they had gotten into the building.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then President Trump tweeted, "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. U.S.A. demands the truth."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring him out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring out Pence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring him out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring out Pence.
MATTHEWS: It was clear that it was escalating and escalating quickly.
CROWD: Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence.
MATTHEWS: So then, when that tweet that Mike Pence tweet was sent out, I remember us saying that that was the last thing that needed to be tweeted at that moment. The situation was already bad and so it felt like he was pouring gasoline on the fire by tweeting that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty seconds later, rioters already inside the Capitol opened the East Rotunda door, just down the hall, and just 30 seconds after that, rioters breached the crypt, one floor below the vice president.
HODGSON: The Secret Service couldn't control the situation and do their job of keeping him safe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At 2:26 pm Secret Service rush Vice President Pence down the stairs.
JACOB: I think they've been trying to figure out whether they had a clear route to get us to where it was that they wanted to move us to. HODGSON: We moved pretty quickly down the stairs and through various
hallways and tunnels to the secure location. Upon arriving there, there was further discussion as to whether or not we were going to leave the Capitol complex or stay where we were.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vice President Pence and his team ultimately were led to a secure location where they stayed for the next four and a half hours, barely missing rioters a few feet away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AGUILAR: Approximately 40 feet, that's all there was, 40 feet between the Vice President and the mob. Mr. Jacob, you were there, seeing that for the first time. Does it surprise you to see how close the mob was to the evacuation route that you took? The 40 feet is the distance from me to you roughly.
JACOB: I could hear the din of the rioters in the building while we moved, but I don't think I was aware that they were as close as that.
AGUILAR: Make no mistake about the fact that the Vice President's life was in danger, a recent court filing by the Department of Justice explains that a confidential informant from the Proud Boys told the FBI, the Proud Boys would have killed Mike Pence if given a chance, whom the FBI affidavit refers to is W-1 stated that other members of the group talked about things they did that day and they said that anyone they got their hands on they would have killed, including Nancy Pelosi.
W-1 further stated that members of the Proud Boys said that they would have killed Mike Pence if given a chance.
We understand that congressional leaders and others were evacuated from the Capitol Complex during the attack. We'd like to show you what happened after the Vice President was evacuated from the Senate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Select Committee has obtained never before seen photos from the National Archives that show Vice President Pence sheltering in a secure underground location as rioters overwhelmed the Capitol. At 4:19 pm, Vice President Pence is seen looking at a tweet the president had just sent a tweet asking the rioters to leave the Capitol.
After four and a half hours spent on working to restore order, the Vice President returned to the Senate floor to continue the certification of electors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AGUILAR: So Vice President Pence was the focus of the violent attack. Mr. Jacob, did the vice president leave the Capitol complex during the attack?
JACOB: He did not. AGUILAR: Can you please explain why the vice president refused to
leave the Capitol complex?
JACOB: When we got down to the secure location, Secret Service directed us to get into the cars, which I did. And then I noticed that the Vice President had not, so I got out of the car that I had gotten in and then gotten into and I understood that the Vice President had refused to get into the car.
The head of his secret service detail, Tim, had said, "I assure you, we're not going to drive out of the building without your permission." And the Vice President had said something to the effect of, "Tim, I know you, I trust you, but you're not the one behind the wheel."
[15:15:03]
And the Vice President did not want to take any chance that the world would see the Vice President of the United States fleeing the United States Capitol. He was determined that we would complete the work that we had set out to do that day, that it was his constitutional duty to see through and that the rioters who had breached the Capitol would not have the satisfaction of disrupting the proceedings beyond the day on which they were supposed to be completed.
AGUILAR: Let me see if I understand this right, you were told to get in the cars and how many of the vice president's staff got in the cars while he did not?
JACOB: Most of us.
AGUILAR: During our investigation, we received testimony that while the Vice President was in a secure location within the Capitol complex, he continued the business of government. We understand that the Vice President reached out to congressional leaders like the Acting Secretary of Defense and others to check on their safety and to address the growing crisis.
In addition, the Vice President's Chief of Staff Marc Short made several calls to senior government officials. Here's Mr. Short's testimony regarding his call with Rep. Kevin McCarthy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VP MIKE PENCE: He indicated that he had had some conversation. I don't recall whether it was with the president or somebody at the White House, but I think he expressed frustration that not taking the circumstance as seriously as they should in that moment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. So Mr. McCarthy indicated he'd been in touch with someone at the White House and he conveyed to you that they weren't taking this as seriously as they should?
SHORT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to answer yes or no. SHORT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AGUILAR: While the Vice President made several calls to check on the safety of others, it was his own life that was in great danger. Mr. Jacob, did Donald Trump ever call the Vice President to check on his safety?
JACOB: He did not.
AGUILAR: Mr. Jacob, how did Vice President Pence and Mrs. Pence react to that?
JACOB: With frustration.
JOHN WOOD, SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL TO JANUARY 6 COMMITTEE: Mr. Jacob, immediately before you and the Vice President were evacuated to a secure location within the Capitol, you hit send on an email to John Eastman explaining why his legal theory about the Vice President's role was wrong. You entered your email by stating that "thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege". We'll take a look at that email.
And Dr. Eastman replied, and this is hard to believe, but his reply back to you was, "The siege is because you and your boss," presumably referring to the Vice President of the United States, "did not do what was necessary to allow this to be aired in a public way so the American people can see for themselves what happened."
Mr. Jacob, later that day you wrote again to Dr. Eastman. Let's show that email on the screen. In that email you wrote and I quote, "Did you advise the President that in your professional judgment, the vice president does not have the power to decide things unilaterally?" And you ended that email saying, "It does not appear that the president ever got the memo."
Dr. Eastman then replied, "He's been so advised." And he ends his email with quote, "But you know him. Once he gets something in his head, it's hard to get him to change course."
Mr. Jacob, when Dr. Eastman wrote 'once he gets something in his head, it's hard to get him to change course', did you understand the he, in that email, to refer to the President of the United States?
JACOB: I did.
WOOD: And Mr. Jacob, did you hear from Dr. Eastman further after the riot had been quelled? And if so, what did he ask?
JACOB: Late that evening, after the joint session had been reconvened, the Vice President had given a statement to the nation saying that violence was not going to win, freedom wins and that the people were going to get back to doing their work. Later that evening, Mr. Eastman emailed me to point out, that in his view, the Vice President's speech to the nation violated the Electoral Count Act - that the Electoral Count Act had been violated because the debate on Arizona had not been completed in two hours.
[15:20:03]
Of course, it couldn't be since there was an intervening riot of several hours. And that the speeches that the majority and minority leaders had been allowed to make also violated the Electoral Count Act because they hadn't been counted against the debate time. And then he implored me, now that we have established that the Electoral Count Act isn't so sacrosanct as you have made it out to be, I implore you one last time, can the Vice President please do what we have been asking him to do these last two days? Suspend the joint session, send it back to the states.
WOOD: And we'll show you the text of that email, which Dr. Eastman wrote at 11:44 pm on January 6th. So after the attack on the Capitol and after law enforcement had secured the Capitol, he still wrote, as you described, "So now that the precedent has been set that the Electoral Count Act is not quite so sacrosanct as was previously claimed, I implore you to consider one more relatively minor violation and adjourn for 10 days to allow the legislatures to finish their investigations."
So even after the attack on the Capitol been quelled, Dr. Eastman requested, in writing no less, that the Vice President violate the law by delaying the certification and sending the question back to the states. Is that correct, Mr. Jacob?
JACOB: It is.
WOOD: Did you eventually share Dr. Eastman's proposal with Vice President Pence?
GREG JACOB: Not right at that time because the Vice President was completing the work that it was his duty to do, but a day or two later back at the White House, I did show him that final email from Mr. Eastman.
WOOD: And what was Vice President Pence's reaction when you showed him the email where Dr. Eastman, after the attack on the Capitol, still asked that the Vice President delay certification and send it back to the states.
JACOB: He said that's rubber room stuff.
AGUILAR: I'm sorry, Mr. Jacob, he said it's rubber room stuff?
GREG JACOB: Yes, Congressman.
AGUILAR: What did you interpret that to mean?
JACOB: I understood it to mean that after having seen play out what happens when you convince people that there is a decision to be made in the Capitol legitimately about who is to be the President and the consequences of that he was still pushing us to do what he had been asking us to do for the previous two days, that that was certifiably crazy.
AGUILAR: We know that the Vice President did not do what Dr. Eastman requested because he presided over the completion of the counting of electoral votes late in that evening.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The number of electors appointed to vote for President of the United States is 538. Within that whole number, a majority is 270. The votes for President of the United States are as follows. Joseph Biden, Jr. of the State of Delaware has received 306 votes. Donald J. Trump of the state of Florida has received 232 votes.
The whole number of electors appointed to vote for Vice President of the United States is 538. Within that whole number a majority is 270. The votes for Vice President of the United States are as follows. Kamala D. Harris of the state of California has received 306 votes. Michael R. Pence of the state of Indiana has received 232 votes.
The announcement of the state of the vote by the President of the Senate shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons elected President and Vice President of the United States, each for the term beginning on the 20th day of January 2021 and shall be entered together with the list of the votes on the journals of the Senate and the House of Representatives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AGUILAR: Mr. Jacob, we heard earlier that you and the Vice President and the team started January 6th with a prayer. You faced a lot of danger that day. And this is a personal question, but how did your faith guide you on January 6th?
JACOB: My faith really sustained me through it. I, down in the secure location, pulled out my Bible, read through it, and just took great comfort.
[15:25:02]
Daniel 6 was where I went, and in Daniel 6, Daniel has become the second in command of Babylon, a pagan nation that he completely faithfully serves. He refuses an order from the king that he cannot follow and he does his duty in - consistent with his oath to God. And I felt that that's what had played out that day.
AGUILAR: It spoke to you?
JACOB: Yes.
AGUILAR: At the end of the day, Marc Short sent the Vice President a text message with a Bible verse. Here's what he told the select committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SHORT: At 3:50 in the morning, when we finally adjourned and headed
our ways, I remember texting the Vice President a passage from 2 Timothy chapter 4 verse 7 about, I fought the good fight. I finished the race. I have kept the faith.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AGUILAR: He started his day with a prayer and ended his day with a Bible verse. I've fought the good fight. I finished the race. I've kept the faith.
White House attorney, Eric Herschmann, testified that the next day January 7th he received a call from Dr. Eastman. Here is Mr. Herschmann's account of that call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HERSCHMANN: The day after, Eastman, I don't remember why he called me or he texted me or called me, he wanted to talk with me, and he said he couldn't reach others. And he started to ask me about something dealing with Georgia and preserving something potentially for appeal.
And I said to him, "Are you out of your effing mind?" I said, "I only want to hear two words coming out of your mouth for now on, orderly transition." And as I remember, I said, "I don't want to hear any other effing words coming out of your mouth no matter what other than orderly transition. Repeat those words to me." (Inaudible) ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what did he say?
HERSCHMANN: Eventually he said, "Orderly transition." I said, "Good, John. Now I'm going to give you the best free legal advice you're ever getting in your life. Get a great effing criminal defense lawyer. You're going to need it." And then I hung up on him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AGUILAR: In fact, just a few days later, Dr. Eastman emailed Rudy Giuliani and requested that he be included on a list of potential recipients of a Presidential pardon. Dr. Eastman's email stated, "I've decided that I should be on the pardon list if that is still in the works."
Dr. Eastman did not receive his Presidential pardon. So, let's see what Dr. Eastman did as a result when he was deposed by this committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN EASTMAN, ATTORNEY WHO WROTE MEMO ENCOURAGING OVERTURN OF ELECTION: I assert my Fifth Amendment right against being compelled to be a witness against myself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the Trump legal team ask you to prepare a memorandum regarding the vice president's role in the counting of electoral votes at the Joint Session of Congress on January 6th, 2021? EASTMAN: Fifth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Eastman, did you advise the president of the United States that the vice president could reject electors from seven states and declare that the president had been reelected?
EASTMAN: Fifth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Eastman, the first sentence of the memo starts off by saying seven states have transmitted dual slates electors to the president of the Senate. Is that statement in this memo true?
EASTMAN: Fifth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did President Trump authorized you to discuss publicly your January 4th, 2021 conversation with him?
EASTMAN: Fifth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are - so, is it your position that you can discuss in the media direct conversations you had with the president of the United States, but you will not discuss those same conversations with this committee?
EASTMAN: Fifth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AGUILAR: Dr. Eastman pled the fifth a hundred times. Finally, let's hear from a federal court judge, the only one to date who has opined on whether the president was involved in criminal activity.
Page 36 of Judge Carter's ruling says, "Based on the evidence the court finds it more likely than not that the president - that President Trump corruptly attempted to obstruct the joint session of Congress on January 6th 2021."
[15:30:00]
