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Trump Awaits Fate As NY Grand Jury Expected Back Tomorrow; NY Times: Trump Claims He's Ready For Perp Walk & Openly Muses If He Should Smile For Assembled Media; Pence: I "Would Discourage" Protests If Trump Indicted. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired March 21, 2023 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST, CNN PRIMETIME (voice-over): Tonight, former President Trump, in legal jeopardy.
TY COBB, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: I think charges are inevitable.
BROWN (voice-over): A potentially imminent indictment in New York.
ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: We're following the facts where they go.
BROWN (voice-over): Over hush money payments, to adult film star, Stormy Daniels.
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's not even under campaign finance. If it was, it's not even a violation.
BROWN (voice-over): Tensions mounting.
ADAM KINZINGER, FORMER UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE: I pray to god that it doesn't turn violent.
BROWN (voice-over): As Trump calls for his supporters to protest.
ALINA HABBA, LAWYER: Let's see if they arrest him. It is going to cause mayhem.
BROWN (voice-over): The question on everyone's mind: Will charges come?
MICHAEL COHEN, TRUMP'S FORMER PERSONAL LAWYER: Everyone needs to be held to the same standard, of the law. And that includes former presidents.
BROWN (voice-over): Plus, as Trump mounts his third White House run, other probes are closing in.
JOE TACOPINA, DONALD TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: They've looked for a crime to fit the person.
BROWN (voice-over): Investigations into classified documents.
TRUMP: You can declassify just by saying it's declassified.
BROWN (voice-over): January 6.
TRUMP: You'll never take back our country with weakness.
BROWN (voice-over): And election interference in Georgia.
TRUMP: You know we won Georgia, just so you understand.
BROWN (voice-over): How will these probes impact his political future?
TRUMP: It's building a lot of sympathy for the former President.
BROWN (voice-over): "CNN PRIMETIME: INSIDE THE TRUMP INVESTIGATIONS" starts now.
BROWN: And you are looking at live pictures, of the Manhattan courthouse that could be buzzing with activity, as soon as tomorrow.
Good evening. I am Pamela Brown.
And tonight, we are taking a deep dive, into the major investigations, into former President Donald Trump. The hush money case, involving Stormy Daniels, the Fulton County grand jury case, in Georgia, and the Department of Justice's Special Counsel.
We will have new information, on the Special Counsel investigation, this hour.
But we begin in Manhattan, where Trump could be indicted, when a New York grand jury is expected to reconvene, in the morning.
While there are hints that an indictment is looming, the reality is no one really knows what's going to happen, not even the 45th President himself. He predicted, over the weekend, he would be arrested today. That did not happen.
The special panel of 23 jurors, investigating a 2016 hush money payment, to Stormy Daniels, has been meeting, in the downtown Manhattan, for months. So, if an indictment comes, it could happen as soon as tomorrow, with this investigation appearing to be near a conclusion.
This whole saga has ignited another political firestorm, with Republican allies, in the House, trying to shield Trump, from making history, as the first former U.S. President, to be criminally charged. They're launching an investigation, into Manhattan District Attorney, Alvin Bragg, and demanding his testimony. We're going to have much more, on the political fallout, just ahead. But first, let's take a look at how we got here, with CNN's Paula Reid.
PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Right now, former President Trump is facing no fewer than four criminal investigations.
BRAGG: The investigation, concerning the former President's ongoing.
REID (voice-over): The case that seems to be putting Trump in the most immediate jeopardy? The Manhattan District Attorney's investigation, into hush money payments, to porn star, Stormy Daniels.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, did you know about the $130,000 payment to Stormy Daniels?
TRUMP: No. No.
REID (voice-over): The case involves potentially falsified business records, and possible campaign finance violations, something that would have surprised Trump, back in 1999.
TRUMP: I think nobody knows more about campaign finance than I do.
REID (voice-over): The payments, to Daniels, were facilitated, by Cohen.
In the final days of the 2016 campaign, the Access Hollywood tape had just come out.
TRUMP: And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.
REID (voice-over): And Daniels was allegedly trying to sell her story, about sleeping with Trump.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Was it hush money to stay silent?
STORMY DANIELS, PORN STAR: Yes. The story was coming out again.
REID (voice-over): Cohen, Trump's former fixer, and personal attorney, became one of his primary antagonists.
COHEN: I know what Mr. Trump is. He is a racist. He is a conman. And he is a cheat.
REID (voice-over): Cohen has met with the Manhattan D.A.'s office, 20 times, and appeared before the grand jury, twice, to testify, about a $130,000 payment, to Daniels, to silence her, about an alleged affair, with Trump. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President?
REID (voice-over): Trump denies any such affair.
Now, almost seven years later, the case may be coming to a conclusion.
But while this particular investigation may be the most imminent, legal experts say it's far from the most consequential.
Trump is also facing a dual-pronged Special Counsel investigation.
MERRICK GARLAND, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: It is in the public interest to appoint a Special Counsel.
REID (voice-over): Examining both the former President's handling, of classified documents, at Mar-a-Lago, and possible obstruction.
TRUMP: We're going to walk down to the Capitol.
REID (voice-over): And his involvement, in the events, leading up to the storming of the Capitol, on January 6.
(VIDEO - JANUARY 6, 2021 - U.S. CAPITOL HILL RIOT)
COBB: Jack Smith's case is the most important, because it's the constitutionally most significant to the country.
REID (voice-over): And that's not the only investigation, related to the 2020 election, and its aftermath. In Georgia, Fulton County D.A., Fani Willis, is looking into Trump, and his allies', efforts, to overturn the 2020 election.
TRUMP: I just want to find 11,780 votes.
REID (voice-over): In that case, a special grand jury returned a report, recommending multiple indictments. And the D.A. is still deciding on whether to bring charges.
REID: Now, it is remarkable that of all those investigations that it's the Manhattan probe that could result, in the first former U.S. President being indicted.
Now, I don't want to speculate, on the strength of the case, Pam, but it's certainly not the most consequential investigation, he's facing.
BROWN: Right. And we know there are several. We're going to dive into all of those, in the show. But first, let's focus on what is right ahead of us.
And Kara, what's ahead of us is that the grand jury, here in Manhattan, is expected to reconvene, in the morning. If an indictment comes, walk us through what would happen next. Would
Trump be immediately notified? And we should note to our viewers, it's not a done deal, right? I mean, we simply don't know what's going to happen.
KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. I mean, I think that's the key thing, is that first, a decision has to be made, by the D.A., to decide "We're going to ask this grand jury, to hand up this indictment."
So, they would prepare the indictment. Bring it to the grand jury. In New York, it's 23 people that have to be a majority. So, it'd be 12. Now, they would then vote on this. And if all 12 voted for it, then the D.A.'s office would inform Trump's attorneys, "Your client has been indicted."
Now, this happens behind-the-scenes, although, of course, former President Trump has been very public, about a lot of things that happened, including the raid, at Mar-a-Lago.
But this would be done in private. They would be given a chance to surrender, because he's not -- this is not a violent felony. And there is always the possibility that he could decide he wants to fight extradition. But I think most people think he would agree to surrender, here.
And, while this is a very normal process, he is such an unusual person, because it would be the first president that we're going to have security concerns. So, the Secret Service would be involved in the transportation. Trump has called for protests. We're seeing an already increased presence, down at the courthouse, by NYPD, and some new security features installed there.
But, at a minimum, he would come in, he would surrender. He would be processed, like anyone else, a mug shot taken, fingerprinted, read his rights.
And, because he's a former President, and there is a security issue, he would likely have this expert -- the next piece, expedited, which would be getting before a judge. But again, because if he is charged, nothing is a violent crime here, he would likely be released that day, and then, be on his way.
BROWN: So Elie, I mean, as you just heard, Kara, lay out, the grand jury would vote, and if there was a majority that it would move forward, could Bragg decide, though not to bring the indictment? How likely is that at this point?
We know that Bob Costello testified, to undermine Michael Cohen. He's Michael Cohen's former attorney. How much do you think that could factor in?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: So, it's certainly possible. I think it's very, very unlikely at this point that Alvin Bragg would not seek an indictment. So, two big decisions have to be made, before this becomes an indictment. First, Alvin Bragg, as the D.A., as the prosecutor, has to decide, "Am I going to ask this grand jury for an indictment?"
That is almost entirely -- that is entirely up to the prosecutor. You have very broad discretion. You can decide to seek an indictment or not seek an indictment for really any reason that you believe is appropriate.
If he decides, "I'm going to ask this grand jury for an indictment," then they will vote on it. As Kara just laid out, you need a majority vote. It's a lower standard than to convict. All you need is probable cause. The vast majority of the times--
HONIG: --when a prosecutor asks for an indictment, you get an indictment.
LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Except you think about this. I mean, the numbers are important, right? If you have 23 people, who could possibly weigh in, say you do have just the bare minimum majority of 12? As a prosecutor, you don't feel confident going forward to trial, in a case, particularly where--
COATES: --the standard in a grand jury is just probable cause. Imagine if you had 11 people, who said, "You don't even have probable cause here?"
COATES: You don't want to go forward on the reasonable doubt standard. But it doesn't take away their prosecutorial discretion here.
Even if they were to go forward, with an indictment, which it looks like they might very well do so, you have a long way until trial. And there's every moment in time between that moment, and then, to decide whether or not the case should go forward, whether you have the evidence, to go to beyond reasonable doubt.
And, of course, this is not a case, I think that Donald Trump would likely plead guilty, to sort of go, "Let's just streamline the classics here."
REID: Making it clear--
HONIG: Yes. There's that (ph).
REID: --that's not going to happen.
HONIG: But -- yes.
BROWN: But why is it so clear to you that that likely will happen? You said it's unlikely that Bragg would not bring an indictment, to the grand jury. Why? To bring our viewers up to speed--
BROWN: --who may not be following every twist and turn.
HONIG: We're basically at the end of the road here.
Alvin Bragg has put in all the witnesses that he wants to call. That's been the reporting. And an important tell here is he gave Donald Trump, as the putative defendant, the chance to come in and testify, or to put in his own witnesses. That's how we heard, or the grand jury heard, from this lawyer, Robert Costello, yesterday. You will not do that as a prosecutor until you are in absolute end game, and ready to cap this off.
And Laura's right. Prosecutors do sometimes use the grand jury, as a little bit of a test avenue, right?
HONIG: And if you cannot get 23 grand jurors, it is night and day. An indictment is easy. You can indict all day, every day. But if you can't get 23 grand jurors, by that lower standard of proof, even a majority, or if just a barely a majority, that is a bad sign, for your case.
COATES: And, by the way--
BROWN: That's the--
COATES: Excuse me, Pam.
COATES: In New York, though, and you've made this point before, in New York, most people think "Well, why on earth would a possible defendant be asked to testify"--
COATES: --"before a grand jury? What incentive would I possibly have to come and talk to you and give myself enough rope to hang myself?"
Well, in reality that's required in New York. The step before you actually go through the indictment, you offer that. Now, it doesn't mean they're going to do it. He obviously did not.
But the fact that that happened here is why people think it's more likely than not, they'll move forward. But I think there's still no absolute guarantee by virtue of the fact that it's Tuesday. You don't have anything yet.
BROWN: You don't have anything yet. The grand jury's meeting tomorrow. Wait and see.
Of course, Donald Trump himself said over the weekend that he was going to be indicted, today. Clearly, that didn't happen. What are your sources, in Trump-world, saying, Paula?
REID: Clearly, in that day, people in Trump's own staff came out, and said, "Look, we have no evidence to suggest. We haven't been informed anything it's going to happen on Tuesday."
But in the same post, where he predicted he would be arrested, he also called for his supporters, to protest, and then in between other Truth Social posts, he was fundraising. So clearly, he believes that leaning into this whole investigation, and the possibility of an arrest and indictment, is politically advantageous for him.
REID: And that's also part of why we're seeing him, we are told, being so willing, to participate, to come to the court, to do his appearance. He wants to be seen, he wants to lean into this, for political purposes.
Now, I've spoken, with a couple sources, in Trump-world, tonight. They say that they're in the dark, on what's going to happen next. They don't know if there will be additional witnesses. They don't know when there'll be a vote on an indictment. But they have told me that if there is an indictment, this week, that that initial appearance won't happen, until at least next week.
What do you think? What are the charges, just to remind our viewers, too, Kara that Donald Trump could face here?
SCANNELL: Well, so sources tell me that what prosecutors are looking at is a falsified business record.
So, remember, Michael Cohen had advanced that $130,000 payment, to Stormy Daniels, and then the Trump Organization and Donald Trump himself reimbursed him. So, what prosecutors are looking at there are falsified invoices that they say Michael Cohen, or that Michael Cohen himself says, he submitted, and then how it was recorded in the books.
Remember, Cohen pleaded guilty, in the federal case. And federal prosecutors, in their charging documents, said that this was recorded incorrectly as a legal expense, because it was really this reimbursement. So, that's a misdemeanor, in New York.
Now, for them to make it a felony, they'd have to show that this was done to conceal or commit another crime. And the common thinking here is that would be campaign finance-related. BROWN: Yes.
HONIG: And really important point. Paying hush money is not a crime.
HONIG: Knowing about a hush money payment is not a crime. The crux of the crime here is the falsification of the documents, and falsely logging them, on the internal books, of the Trump Organization, as attorney's fees.
And so, through all the noise, the key thing prosecutors have to show is that Donald Trump knew about that or ordered it, or blessed it. So, all the other facts here are important and relevant. But the heart of the matter is did Donald Trump know how those books were being kept?
BROWN: Right. Yes, mens rea.
All right, thank you so much. Elie, Laura, Paula, thank you so much. Kara, we appreciate it.
Significant new evidence, in the Justice Department's probe, into Trump's handling of classified documents. There are brand new developments significant to that investigation. The Breaking News is up next. Stay with us.
BROWN: New tonight, the federal judge is convinced that DOJ has evidence Donald Trump intentionally misled his own lawyers, during the Mar-a-Lago documents investigation.
CNN's Kaitlan Collins joins us now.
Kaitlan, what do we know about this finding by the judge?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: So essentially, what she is -- what she has found here is that the Justice Department has convinced this judge that former President Trump did use one of his defense attorneys, in furtherance of a crime, or fraud, when it comes to the existence of classified documents, at Mar-a-Lago.
Obviously, this is something we've been talking about, especially ever since last Friday, when the judge ruled that prosecutors had met that crime-fraud exception, when it came to Evan Corcoran.
And if people aren't familiar with what the crime-fraud exception is, it basically means they want Evan Corcoran, to come testify again, before the grand jury, which he's already done. But this time, when he's asked questions, he can't cite attorney-client privilege, for not being able to answer, some of those questions.
And the reason that she agrees with the prosecutors here is significant, is because it basically means the first time that the judge is saying here that it is Trump, who may have committed the crime here, not Trump -- or Corcoran, which had kind of been ambiguous before.
So, it's incredibly significant. It could be significant to what Jack Smith, as Special Counsel, is pursuing here, when it comes to potential obstruction of justice.
What we do know is that as part of this, they do have handwritten notes and audio recordings from Evan Corcoran. That is the defense attorney, who has been handling the documents probe, ever since May, ever since, of course, in August, when the Justice Department and the FBI went in, and had that search warrant, at Mar-a-Lago.
So this is significant, because it zeroes in on Trump. Now, he has not been charged with anything. It remains to be seen how this all ends up. But when it comes to how this is being pursued here, and what could happen, over the next few days, it's incredibly significant here.
BROWN: Yes. Because, like you said, it gives you a window that they have evidence, potentially, about his state of mind, in this. And we don't know exactly what the evidence is, what it says, but it is a significant development.
COLLINS: Yes, and that it's Trump, and not Evan Corcoran, his defense attorney, here, Trump that may have committed the crime.
COLLINS: That is a way -- we wait to see what of course the courts decide here, because we do know also that Evan Corcoran, and Trump's attorneys, are fighting this that he has to go and testify, again. We don't know what the judge is ultimately going to decide.
They took it before the D.C. Circuit Court. It is now up to them, to decide whether or not he does have to go and testify, which would be incredibly significant, if he does that. A monumental ruling, if he has to go before a grand jury, with no attorney-client privilege, to talk about his conversations with Trump.
BROWN: It would be an incredible development. I know you'll be watching it closely.
Kaitlan, thank you. Stick around.
CNN's Evan Perez joins us now.
So Evan, the other big case, is in Fulton County, Georgia, where in the words of Atlanta D.A., Fani Willis, back in January, quote, "Decisions are imminent." Here we are, Evan. That is the case, of course, involving the efforts, to overturn the 2020 election, including this infamous call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: So look, all I want to do is this: I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, Evan, what do we know, about the timing, of an investigation, now almost seven months, into a special grand jury?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look, the words, "Imminent," really still hang over this investigation, because that's what the District Attorney there has been promising.
But we know that just in recent days, they've asked, for another interview, with another Trump attorney, Christina Bobb.
And so, we know that she was, at least she overheard, or listened to that phone call, the one -- one of the phone calls there that they now have recordings of, where Trump is pressuring local officials, to help him find the votes that he believes will help him remain in office, or at least win Georgia, which of course he had lost.
So, this indicates that there is still some investigation being done. So perhaps it's not as imminent as we first believed. The problem, for the District Attorney there is that, obviously this has been going on, for about seven months, and the clock is ticking, right, for the political calendar.
And so, the question is, are they going to bring this perhaps in the next month or two, while this, the political calendar is going on? And of course, that's also the political calendar that the Justice Department is having to pay attention to, because, as you know, the candidates are declaring, and everybody is getting ready, for the coming election.
BROWN: All right. Evan Perez, thank you so much for that.
So, let's dig into the merits, of three of the biggest criminal investigations, swirling around the former President.
David Schoen represented Donald Trump, as lead counsel, during his second impeachment trial.
And Karen Friedman Agnifilo is a former prosecutor, from the Manhattan D.A.'s office.
Thank you both for being here.
All right. So, let's start in Georgia, shall we? I asked Trump's attorney, Drew Findling, about that infamous call, you just heard Evan talking about it, looking to find votes. Let's listen again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DREW FINDLING, TRUMP ATTORNEY: What I'm worried about is that people just listen to eight or nine seconds, and don't really look at evidence. So, we look at 62 minutes. We look at all the evidence. And looking at all the evidence, we understand, and we know that our client did not break any laws whatsoever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All right. So, I'm going to ask both of you here, given that there is at least three calls that we know of, and dozens of witnesses, how strong is the case, I'll start with you, David, that Fani Willis is putting together in your view?
DAVID SCHOEN, LEAD COUNSEL FOR TRUMP IN 2ND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL, CIVIL RIGHTS AND CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don't think she has a strong case, frankly. There were other people, on the call, as well.
I can tell you that President Trump believes the call was perfectly fine, and that he meant when he said "Find the votes" that he believed, in his heart, that there had been election fraud. He sincerely believes that. And so, therefore, he felt he was doing nothing wrong. He's right. You have to listen to the full call.
And unfortunately, Fani Willis is, when she was an assistant, she was a pretty hardcore prosecutor. She's become quite a political character. And I think she thinks her constituency supports this prosecution, no matter what. And I'm afraid now, there's a race to see who's going to indict President Trump first.
KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, FORMER CHIEF ASSISTANT MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, I think, if you only look at that one phone call, out of context, it really doesn't tell the whole picture.
The special grand jury that isn't indicting Donald Trump, or any of the other individuals, they've heard, from many, many, many witnesses. They didn't just hear about the phone call.
And I think when you put it all together, in context, you will see that this was more than just a phone call. This was an effort, a concerted effort, by Donald Trump, and other people, who were close to him, to try to basically throw the election, and find these votes that didn't exist.
So, I think, it's going to be a sweeping indictment that's going to come, out of Georgia, that's going to be much more than just this phone call, so.
BROWN: All right, everyone--
SCHOEN: You may know that there's a motion that was just filed to strike the--
BROWN: Yes. But -- yes, to the special grand jury.
BROWN: And it's, to be clear with our audience, that's not a criminal grand jury. They're not the ones that who would bring an indictment.
But I want to move to New York, and specifically, the hush money case, involving Stormy Daniels.
You have Trump's former lawyer, Michael Cohen, and Rudy Giuliani's lawyer, Robert Costello, both of whom have testified, as witnesses, in front of the grand jury, going after one another. Let's take a listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT COSTELLO, ATTORNEY WHO HAS REPRESENTED TRUMP ALLIES: I've listened to Michael Cohen, stand in front of the courthouse, and say things that are directly contrary to what he said to us.
COHEN: I think he's a clown.
Bob Costello, if he was any more imaginary, in the statements, that are coming out of his mouth, he'd be a number one New York Times' best-selling fiction author.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: What do you think, David, that so much of this case seems to hinge on the credibility of those two men? Costello and Cohen?
SCHOEN: Well, now Costello is in the picture. Before, it hung on the credibility of Michael Cohen.
I can tell you this. Everything that Bob Costello, has said to the grand jury, he has documents to support.
I can only tell -- also tell you this, from Bob Costello. He made it quite clear that the prosecutors didn't want that grand jury to hear from him. He had a very tough time, when he went in. Tried to tell the story. They wouldn't ask him questions, about Stormy Daniels. He had to volunteer all of that stuff.
But I'll tell you this, more importantly -- and I'm sure this is a good friend of Ms. Agnifilo -- Julieta Lozano, who's the head of the Major Economics Crime Bureau said, it's in Mike -- Mark Pomerantz's book, page 159, "She could never imagine calling Michael Cohen as a witness on any subject, because she did not trust anything he ever said." That's pretty strong.
BROWN: Mark Pomerantz was a former attorney, in the D.A.'s office--
SCHOEN: That's right.
BROWN: --for our audience, who may not know who that is.
FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO: So, Michael Cohen is known to everybody as a witness that you're going to have to corroborate, because he has a conviction, for lying to Congress. He has other convictions. And so, that -- whatever Bob Costello said, to the grand jury, was not news to the grand jury.
Everybody knows that Michael Cohen, he does paint a very colorful picture of the people surrounding Trump, and the circumstances. In fact, he himself said, he wrote the playbook for Trump, of how you go, and you do things that are underhanded, or illegal, frankly. And so, he provides the color. But there are documents. There are other witnesses.
And for Costello, to say that he didn't have an opportunity, to say what he wanted, to say in the grand jury? He was in there, for almost three hours. Grand jury is a bare bones -- supposed to be a bare-bones presentation. Witnesses sometimes go in, for short periods of time. It's not like a trial, where you're cross-examined. He had three hours, to say whatever he wanted.
SCHOEN: Well, let me say this, a couple of things.
First of all, he had 330 emails. They gave the grand jury, six of them.
But what's different about Bob Costello that is new, to the grand jury, is that when Michael Cohen spoke to him, he spoke to him, as his lawyer or legal adviser.
And Bob Costello said, according to Bob Costello, "Mr. Cohen, this is your chance. If you have anything on Trump, use it now. This is your chance."
And Michael Cohen kept saying to him, according to Costello, "I'll never -- I'll do any effing thing to stay out of jail."
He said, "If you have something on Trump, Stormy Daniels, or anything else, use it now."
And he said, he had nothing on Trump, and according to Costello, he threatened to commit suicide. He spoke to Jerry Falwell, about that. He was at wit's end. And you can be sure he would have done it, then.
What changed? Well, Lanny Davis is his lawyer now, for one thing, and he sees now how to market himself, perhaps.
But Bob Costello is different, because it's one thing to lie to Maggie Haberman, in a story, and be covering. When your own lawyer, or your legal adviser, you're talking to, and you believe is privileged or otherwise? That's a different story. This is the time, when he had a motivation to tell the truth.
By the way, he said on the news, the other night that he never recalled signing a privilege waiver, with Bob Costello. I mean, I have a copy of it here. He signed a privilege waiver.
BROWN: Also, to you. FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO: So, I think we'll see what the grand jury does. If he's as compelling as he says he is, and if he has all this information, he had three hours, to tell the grand jury.
And this isn't going to be Alvin Bragg necessarily charging Donald Trump. This is the people of the State of New York versus Donald Trump. And this is going to come through, the indictment of 23 grand jurors, who will have heard all of the evidence, in this case, good, bad and ugly, including Donald Trump's side of the story, through the witness that he asked himself to be put in that grand jury, and we'll see what the grand jury does.
BROWN: OK, thank you so much.
We got to leave it there. Really, a great discussion, civil discussion, on this topic, we appreciate it. Thank you so much, Karen and David.
So, what's it like, inside Trump-world, right now? How worried is the former President about the possibility of being indicted and arrested?
We are live, near his home, in Florida.
And some of the reporters, who have covered him the longest, they could join us with new reporting, right after this break. Stay with us.
BROWN: New reporting, tonight, into former President Trump's mindset, as he and his team brace for a potential indictment.
Sources tell CNN that Trump has resigned himself, to the fact that he likely will be indicted, but is toying with the idea of creating a media spectacle.
CNN's Kristen Holmes is in West Palm Beach, Florida, near Mar-a-Lago.
So Kristen, what more can you tell us?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, Trump's reaction, to this pending indictment, or likely indictment, has really run the full spectrum.
As you said, at times, he has toyed with the idea of creating this media spectacle, outside of the courthouse. At other times, he has celebrated that this could help him politically, while also complaining that this is incredibly unfair.
And from a lot of the sources, I've spoken to, recently, who've been in touch, with the former President, they say recently, he has been actually ignoring this. And they believe this might be some sort of compartmentalization, or resignation, to the fact that this is happening, and it's just time to move on. One thing that I thought was really interesting, from the number of close advisers that I spoke to, of the former President, is what we're hearing all of these allies, and Republicans, publicly say that Trump is going to be helped, significantly, politically, by this.
Those closest to him weren't (ph) so adamant. They said yes, they do believe it will help him in contested primary, will give him a boost, but that they have no idea what this would look like, long-term that they're in uncharted territories. I had one aide tell me, they'd rather he not be indicted at all, than get any sort of potential boost, and have to deal with this.
But they are putting plans, in place. They do feel like they don't have a lot of that information that none of us have, in terms of timing.
And the one thing that really has kind of thrown a wrench in all this is the former President's trip to Waco, Texas, on Saturday, for his first campaign rally. There are a lot of questions about if that event will happen, and how exactly they're going to pull that off.
BROWN: All right, Kristen Holmes, thank you so much.
More perspective now, from two journalists, who closely follow Trump- world, CNN's Kaitlan Collins; and CNN Political Analyst, Maggie Haberman, who is also The New York Times' Senior Political Correspondent.
No one covers Trump better than you too, so thanks for your time tonight.
I want to start with some of your reporting, Maggie that Trump is literally preparing for his perp walk. He's actually fixated on the idea of being paraded out by authorities.
Take us inside.
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES, AUTHOR, "CONFIDENCE MAN": Sure. So, Trump is posturing a strong stance, right? "I'm not afraid." He's trying to project strength. He's trying to look as if he is not worried about what is coming.
Now, according to people, who know him very well, he has spent decades, concerned about the prospect, of being arrested, literally decades. And so, it's hard to imagine that this is all reality. But he is basically embracing the idea of where this is going to go.
And, as we've seen, over time, when the Access Hollywood tape came out in 2016, he went downstairs, outside of Trump Tower, and immersed himself, in a crowd of his supporters. He has repeatedly tried to show that he is not experiencing shame, or hiding in any way.
And I think you're going to see that. What exactly that looks like, if he's indicted, which, all indications are that that's likely to happen? We don't know, because we don't know what this arraignment will look like.
He will be the most famous defendant, to be entering 100 or 80 Center Street. It could happen, a number of ways. But I think he will want to make sure that he is seen, somehow.
BROWN: As we know, he loves a show, right? He wants a spectacle.
But given all the security around it, as Maggie points out, the historic nature, if this happens, he may not get -- might not get that spectacle.
COLLINS: Yes, well it remains to be seen what this actually looks like.
I do think that they know that this image of him walking in, if that is what it ultimately leads to, when he surrenders himself, if this indictment comes down, will be this indelible image. It will be played over and over again. I think that's why they want to project strength in that.
I still think they, and by "They," I mean, Trump's legal team, and his allies, don't think the merits of this case are going to be very strong that it ultimately will be very damaging to him. But it is something that has really bothered him, this case, especially not just because of the merits, but because it's about Stormy Daniels.
COLLINS: And this has been something that, as both of you know very well, incredibly bothered the first lady, Melania Trump, when Trump was in the White House. And this story was in the headlines, every single day. It was a huge issue, during the campaign, because of just the sensitivity of the nature of it. And so, I think that's a big part of why it is something that has bothered him so much.
I do think they are thinking of how to translate those images of, if it is him, walking into the courthouse, what that's going to look like. As Kristen was noting, they've debated give him -- giving a speech after. It remains to be seen what he ultimately, what he does, and what that looks like. But it's a very sensitive case.
HABERMAN: And it is -- it is. You're right. It is personally very sensitive for him.
I think that for his aides, they look at it as the investigation of the four that he is facing. That's four criminal investigations, one in Georgia, two Justice Department investigations that have sort of merged into one, and this one. This is the one they are -- they say, they are the least worried about.
The reality is that I'm not sure how much his political advisers actually have their hands around what this looks like. I think what the legal team says matters more here. But if this is where it stays, one adviser said to me, earlier today, they feel like they can live with this, politically. If it starts to become another indictment, and then another indictment, that's a lot of freight. And I think they're not really sure how that plays.
COLLINS: Yes. And looking how Republicans are twisting themselves in knots, over how to respond?
HABERMAN: That's right.
COLLINS: They've been at this retreat, in Orlando. They put out this letter, from these three chairmen, demanding testimony, from Alvin Bragg. We were talking to one of the House Republicans, earlier today. And I've spoken to several, on the phone, today, about. It's so unusual. They haven't even seen the charges yet.
COLLINS: We don't actually know what he may be charged with.
HABERMAN: That's actually--
COLLINS: Or may not be charged with.
HABERMAN: That's exactly right.
COLLINS: We haven't actually seen the indictment.
BROWN: Yes. And I think that's notable, right?
COLLINS: Yes. But he wants a strong response, from his allies. You know how he is, when he's in a time like this. He and his allies want to see this strong response, kind of from other Republicans. And they're sending this letter. We don't even -- they don't even really know what they're asking for.
HABERMAN: But part of what they're, some people around Trump, are telling themselves is, there's a chance that if we keep up this pressure that Alvin Bragg is not going to indict Donald Trump. And it's likely to have the opposite reaction, frankly.
For a variety of reasons, Alvin Bragg has made clear, to his staff, "We are not going to bend to these threats." I think they have said that publicly, which is pretty remarkable, for the D.A.'s office, to say that.
But he has also made -- for Alvin Bragg, a liberal Democrat, in Manhattan, being hauled before Congress, by Trump's Republican allies? That's not terrible politics for him. So, I mean, this idea that they think they're going to bully him out of this, it strikes me as magical thinking.
BROWN: Yes. It was interesting because McCarthy talked about this. And he said, "I'm talking about Trump again, because you guys are asking me about this." But then they sent the letter--
BROWN: --the three chairmen sent that letter. They're also keeping it right, center stage.
There's also the classified document case that's going on, looming, in all of this. Tell us about the new reporting on that, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes. So, this is Trump's attorney, he's a defense attorney, Evan Corcoran. They're now before a D.C. Circuit Court, trying to push back on what the judge ruled, on Friday, which is that they do believe prosecutors have met that crime-fraud exception here.
And essentially, he would have to go testify, before the grand jury, without being able to say, "I can't answer that question because of attorney-client privilege." They want him to answer lines of questioning he previously declined to answer, for that obvious protection.
And so, that could be something we see, as soon as tomorrow. We don't know actually. We know that it is going before the D.C. Circuit Court. We know that they have to make a decision on it, or otherwise he does have to go testify.
And so, it's remarkable to see, these two things, playing out, simultaneously, and it just speaks to the number of investigations that are going on.
HABERMAN: That's exactly right.
And remember, this is on the crime-fraud exception, which is why the judge has said, Corcoran should go ahead and testify, because there's enough evidence that the Justice Department has put forward that his legal advice was used, in service of a crime. It doesn't mean that Corcoran was the one doing it. It could mean that Trump was the one doing it.
But it is remarkable to watch the convergence of this. You're absolutely right.
BROWN: It really is. All right, Kaitlan Collins, Maggie Haberman, thank you so much.
BROWN: Well, Trump has called for protests, on his behalf, if he's indicted.
But tonight, former Vice President Mike Pence is breaking with his old boss, again. We're going to explain, up next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think, in this instance, I would discourage Americans, from engaging in protests, if in fact the former President is indicted.
I understand the frustration. I -- as I said, this past weekend, I -- if the President is in fact indicted, by the Manhattan D.A., that appears to me to be a politically-motivated prosecution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Former Vice President, Mike Pence, breaking from his former boss. President Trump has called for protests, if he is indicted. There, former Vice President Pence saying, maybe there are other ways to let voices be heard.
So, let's discuss. Gloria Borgia is here with us.
Going to start with you. What do you make of that response, from Pence?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think he's trying to thread the needle, here, in his Mike Pence way, without sort of directly saying what the former President is charged with, what the case is about.
And the low-hanging fruit is, of course, Alvin Bragg. And you heard that, at the Republican retreat, in Florida, this week, as you guys were talking about.
BROWN: We did.
BORGER: They're just saying that this is politically-motivated, and that the charges are ridiculous. They never quite get to the point, about whether Donald Trump conceivably could have done this, or didn't do this.
So, Mike Pence, again trying to be a little more delicate, about it than, for example, Ron DeSantis, was, when he took a sledgehammer, to Donald Trump. So, I think, it's just Mike Pence, walking this line that we have seen him walk, ever since January 6.
BROWN: Exactly. And it comes with that context, right?
BORGER: Of course.
BROWN: He was there, at the Capitol building, during January 6.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: But nobody even listens to Mike Pence anyway. You know what I mean? Who cares? I mean, the people who are going to march and protest, they would march and protest against Pence himself. They did. They did.
DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER: And I think they were chanting "Hang Mike Pence!"
JONES: Exactly, though.
BROWN: I think so.
JONES: I don't think he's got -- I don't think he's got a lot, a lot of sway with this crowd.
BROWN: But it's interesting--
URBAN: Yes, Pence is all -- listen, he's in the safe place, like Gloria said.
In this indictment, or this pending indictment, the safe place to be is to kind of condemn the District Attorney, right? And I think you see a lot of Republicans out there, on this one that may not be out there, on the following one. This is a safe space to go out politically.
This is -- a prosecution has been passed on, by Cy Vance, by the Southern District of New York, and lots of other folks. And so, I think it's safe to say, if you're a Republican, "This is a persecution, not a prosecution," right?
URBAN: And so, that's where they're going. And it's fine to do it.
BROWN: But it's interesting--
BORGER: Well Trump--
BROWN: Yes, go ahead.
BORGER: Well, I was going to say, Trump has already laid the groundwork, for all of these cases, to be politically-motivated. He said that about Fani Willis, and Atlanta.
BORGER: He said that about Jack Smith, the Special Counsel, and that's the documents case.
So, Trump is laying the groundwork here. And, in this case, they're following, because it's easier, because this is a--
BORGER: --controversial case, to say the least.
URBAN: And some are going to fall off, I think.
BROWN: And, to be clear--
BORGER: You think?
BROWN: --the differences, some of these prosecutors, like Alvin Bragg, running as a Democrat, was elected. You have someone like Jack Smith, who is a civil servant, right?
BROWN: I mean, he works at DOJ. So, it's a totally different situation there.
But if you look at big picture, how Republicans are responding, it's really fascinating. Because, it wasn't long ago, after the midterms, where you had a lot of Republicans, saying they were ready to leave Trump behind. Now, here they are, coming out of the every corner--
JONES: But that's why--
BROWN: --defending him.
JONES: But that's why Democrats' knees are knocking so loud, all across the country, because you're about to make a martyr out of somebody, who had been a clown.
And that's the problem. You had a lot of people who was like, "Look, he's fading." "See, I'm running for president." "Nobody's coming to his rallies. He's going to go away." And now suddenly, he's roaring back as a martyr.
JONES: And so, a lot of people, Joe Manchin, and others, are saying--
JONES: --"Guys, don't get too happy about this indictment. It could blow back up on you."
BORGER: When Republicans are in a position, with Trump, where they can't live with him, and they can't live without him? They need the base. They want the base.
URBAN: And listen, at some point--
BORGER: But they don't want Trump.
URBAN: Yes. I was going to say, at some point, Trump is definitely ascending, right now.
URBAN: The former President, on his way up. His numbers are going to go up there, if they run polls. You're going to have a big crowd in Waco. It's going to be like, the glory days of 2016. People are going to be there.
Now, how long does that stay? Does that stay through the second indictment? The third indictment?
URBAN: The fourth indictment? That's the question, right?
BROWN: Yes, the long-term.
URBAN: That's the question. If there are, if they do come.
BROWN: Yes, yes.
JONES: Everybody's trying to figure out the politics of it.
I do think it's important to point out that, people who are kind of beating up on Alvin? If you're the prosecutor, and lawmakers, in your state, come up with a law that says "We don't want politicians behaving in a bad way, we don't want them doing lying, cheating, and stealing, we don't want a bunch of George Santoses running the whole state?"
And that law's on the books, and somebody violates that law? He's not supposed to care, if it's good for Democrats, politically or bad, or if it's good, for Republicans, or bad. You're supposed to look at the law. And I think you got to -- it's weird to me that everybody now wants this prosecutor, to think about the politics of it, and not the law.
URBAN: Well, I just think the discretion piece of it, right? So listen, again, we talked about this, before, that if you're going to do this, if you're going to indict the President, you better do something. There better be a body laying next to the guy, right? I mean, it better be something good that you're going to convict him on. Not something--
BORGER: Well, and Stormy Daniels is not the first case--
JONES: Yes. I agree with that.
URBAN: This, right, and so--
BORGER: --that anyone would have.
JONES: I agree with that.
URBAN: --and so now--
JONES: I agree with that.
URBAN: --now, when these other indictments come down, it's going to be whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, and it's going to be white noise, for a lot of America.
JONES: That's the thing. That is the thing.
URBAN: Lot of--
BORGER: No, look, the thing is, there's no precedent here, for any of this. I mean, has there been any polling ever done, on the potential indictment, of a leading presidential candidate, who was also a former President? I mean, you just -- we've never had this before.
URBAN: By the way, the rest of the world, you have President Xi and Putin meeting, right?
URBAN: There's lots of things going on in the world that are very serious, very scary that Americans should be concerned about. And instead, the world is looking at us, saying, "What's going on in America?"
BORGER: Well, I mean, it is a big deal though.
URBAN: No, no it's a big deal. But it's -- but it's kind of a--
BROWN: There are other important things going on.
URBAN: I get it, but--
BROWN: And CNN has been covering that, but.
URBAN: No, no, I get it. But my point is, Americans are looking at this -- around the world, people looking at this case, right, whether you're Great Britain, our allies, our friends, people are saying, "This is what he's getting indicted? Taking down the President over this?"
URBAN: That's why the people--
BROWN: And, to be clear, he hasn't been indicted yet, so, we just want to make sure.
BORGER: That's right.
URBAN: Yes. BROWN: All right. And the former President, we should say, too.
David Urban, Van Jones, Gloria Borger, thank you all so much.
So, how law enforcement is preparing for potential protests? We're going to have that right after a quick break.
BROWN: Law enforcement agencies, at high alert, on all levels, preparing for what could be the first ever indictment, of a former President.
CNN's Senior Crime And Justice Correspondent, Shimon Prokupecz, is here.
So, what are you hearing from your sources--
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
BROWN: --about these security measures?
PROKUPECZ: Look, I think everyone's just waiting for word, on when this is going to happen. Law enforcement is prepared.
The big thing is the Secret Service component of getting in the former President, getting him out safely.
And, right now, they're not seeing any of this chatter that's online and social media that's overly concerning, certainly not seeing anything to the level before January 6.
But everyone's ready. When they get word that he's going to be coming here, if he comes here, if there's an indictment, they'll close streets, they'll move things around, and hopefully get him in safely, and get him out. That's the big concern for them.
And obviously, if people show up to protest? And make sure that that's done safely.
But they're prepared.
PROKUPECZ: And every day, there are meetings, to discuss this, and they're just waiting for the next steps to hear whether or not this is going to happen.
BROWN: Obviously, before like something like January 6, you mentioned, we saw a lot of chatter, where you see--
PROKUPECZ: Nothing like that here. I mean, they're actually, I think, there's some surprise about it. But certainly, they're sort of saying, "We're not seeing it." When you look at the protests, there was, calls for people, to march, today. There were barely any people, who showed up.
So, so far, law enforcement is pretty satisfied. And I think they're happy to see this. But they're going to be prepared, no matter what.
BROWN: Yes. All right, Shimon Prokupecz, thank you so much. Excellent reporting.
Well, thank you all for joining us tonight.
"CNN TONIGHT" with Alisyn Camerota starts right after the break.