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CNN Live Event/Special

Trump In Criminal Courtroom For Arraignment; Source: Donald Trump Pleads Not Guilty. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired April 04, 2023 - 14:30   ET



KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR & CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): We were trying to summon him, obviously, over here. We -- just to give you a sense of what you can't see on camera will probably about 50 feet away from that door, where former President Trump entered.

He took a left. He went into the same courtroom where you saw his attorneys go in. Also his aides. Jason Miller, Boris Epstein and his attorneys going in with him.

We asked him -- his another attorney, Chris Kise, is that he would come to the camera and speak. He obviously did not do so. He went straight to the room.

They were behind those doors for several minutes, Anderson, and the attorneys went in first. Then Boris Epstein, then Trump, followed by Jason Miller, just to give you a sense of the succession of who you saw walking in those doors.

I also want to note one of the persons there is Walt (INAUDIBLE) also. That is the former White House valet to Trump, who is now a personal aide to him down at Mar-a-Lago, who is actually a key witness in the documents investigation. He's also here accompanying Trump on this trip.

Now he is in that room. He is being read the indictment. Obviously, he is going to enter the plea himself, we're told. We'll see if that actually stands with the attorneys.

And then he potentially makes him over and speaks to us afterwards. He does know we're here. We tried to get him to answer a question going in the room.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT & INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: I think -- Anderson, I had to say, noted -- Kaitlan noted that Boris and -- Boris Epstein and Jason were the two aides that accompanied the former president.


MILLER: -- and Jason Miller.

And if you had to say, who -- who would the president take to kind of pump them up and kind of say, you know, hang in there, Mr. President, and get him in a good mood and -- or to say this is B.S., you know you're being persecuted?

I would say both of those gentlemen would be -- would be the people that I would suggest that you know, you put in the room.

Boris, especially, is bombastic and kind of a bigger-than-life personality.

COOPER: Alyssa, what did you think about how the former president looked.

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He looked sad. He looked struck. I think -- you know, we had we had been under the impression he may make a brief statement before going in. And I think the fact that he didn't is notable.

That indicates to me, potentially, what he saw in the indictment goes further than he expected it to.

I don't want to jump to conclusions, but he likely went into this with some sort of a written statement. We're hearing one or two lines he wanted to say.

And for whatever reason, he decided to pull that back or perhaps wait until afterward.

This is where, as often is the case in Trump world, the attorneys are likely at odds with the comms advisers, who are going to want him to be, to David's point, you know, pushing back, calling it a witch hunt.

But sometimes the best thing legally to do is to remain silent. So we'll see what he -- you know, we know we're going to hear from him later tonight, if not immediately after this arraignment. But that was not a happy looking Donald Trump.

COOPER: We see some photographers --still photographers who, I assume, were allowed inside the courtroom. They were ushered in several moments ago. Looks like they are now leaving. So there will be some still photographs, I assume, of the former president in the -- in the courtroom.

That's another shot, kind of a wider shot, a wider-angle shot from -- from the hallway outside the courtroom.

Adam Kaufman, can you just talk a little bit about what is happening inside that courtroom right now?

ADAM KAUFMANN, FORMER PROSECUTOR, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE: Sure. So Mr. Trump would have gone to the defense table where he would have joined any number of his defense attorney. He would be seated at the table.

Once everyone was present, the judge would be -- would come in, would enter the courtroom. Depending on the judge's preference, there may or may not be the sort of traditional "all rise."

The judge - (CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Would there be -- sorry, Adam. But would there be a -- Boris Epstein, Jason Miller, they probably wouldn't be at the defense table. I assume they would be seated perhaps behind. Or they're -- they're not -- are spectators in the courtroom?

KAUFMANN: It seems like -- I don't know. Typically, of course, courtrooms are open to the public. It looks like the whole courthouse has shut down today.

And if they're not letting the press in to watch the arraignment, then I can't imagine they're letting the public in.

MILLER: So they -- they have press in there in the spectator seats. They may have some members of the public, although they reserve most of it for the press.

They have an overflow room where they're getting a closed-circuit TV version of this, presumably not recorded, but fed where there's more press and perhaps some public.

This was something that was arranged early today with color-coded passes and people in line and, you know, handled by the Office of Court Administration and the court officers.

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGRIFILO, FORMER CHIEF ASSISTANT D.A., MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE: Yes. My understanding also is they would have taken away any electronic devices for anyone going in there, as well as disabled the Wi-Fi of the building so that there is no way to surreptitiously record this or in any way, get into the systems here.

So there was an office-wide email sent to the Manhattan D.A.'s office this morning by -- from D.A. Bragg explaining all the extraordinary measures that are being taken in the building today.

COOPER: Elie, I mean, we are -- we should be just moments away from actually learning the indictments ourselves.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. So first of all, there is a court reporter in the room who is transcribing every word that's said. So this will not be about spin. Nobody will be able to claim something was said that wasn't said. We will have an -- an official record.

And, yes, Anderson, we will --

COOPER: We will have reporters in the room.

Let's go back to Jake.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Anderson, thanks so much.

So just to bring everybody up to speed -- and Andy McCabe, let me just correct -- correct me if I'm wrong here. What we've been watching, Donald Trump went to a different floor of the Manhattan criminal court building where he was processed.

Then we see him walking through. He came up on an elevator. He's this is from the 15th floor. And now he is in the courtroom where he pleaded not guilty.

And then we saw those still, photographers come out, run down the hall. Those are with photographs from that courtroom. Is that right?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

So the processing on the seventh floor, after processing, likely he meets with his attorney. They get an opportunity then to see the indictment for the first time.

When that's finished, up the elevator, through those doors, hard left and into the courtroom, which is where he remains.

TAPPER: And, Karen, in New York, let me ask you, how likely is it that the lawyers just sat there and went over point by point complaint by complaint with Donald Trump.

AGRIFILO: Yes. So, yes, so Donald Trump is going in there right now and he is going to be told what the charges are. He's talking to his lawyers. And for all we know, right now, the judge is telling him exactly what the charges are and arraigning him on them.

TAPPER: Oh, so that would be happening right now in the courtroom, not earlier when the processing was going on?

AGRIFILO: Yes. So right now, he is going to be officially formally arraigned by the judge, which means that's the formal -- that's when you are informed formally of the charges that are being -- that you are being charged with.

And you are then asked to enter. How do you plead, guilty or not guilty? And he is going to enter a plea of not guilty.

And this is where we will -- we will see exactly what other information the district attorney wants to inform the defendant and his team of.

The judge will also, any admonishments that the judge wants to give, whether there's been some discussion of a gag order, I -- that that may or may not happen.

But short of that, I'm sure the judge will give him some admonishments because he is now no longer just the former president. He's now Defendant Trump.

And this judge will have to protect the integrity of this case and any future trial, future jurors, and make sure that although, yes, he has a right to speak freely about -- about information, he also has a right -- he doesn't have a right to taint the process against him.

TAPPER: So, Adam, let me just ask you, Donald Trump has referred to the District Attorney Alvin Bragg as a -- as an animal in his -- some of his social media posts.

Is that the kind of thing the judge would tell the defendant, Donald Trump, to stop doing because of the threats of violence that have followed?

KAUFMANN: I think that's right. I think -- you know, I would be surprised if the judge issued a gag order at this point in the case. But I would also be surprised if he did not admonish -- admonish both parties to be respectful of the process and to use temperate language and so forth.

But you know, the target of those admonishments is clearly going to be Mr. Trump.

And I think, given that he is now a defendant in a criminal case, he is object to rules of the court. And if he continues to engage in that type of threatening abusive social media posts -

TAPPER: I'm going to interrupt you for one second, Adam. I'm going to interrupt you for one second, just because this is one of the photographs that we just got, from inside the courtroom. Still photographers, about half a dozen of them or so were allowed in the room to take pictures.

They are not going to be televising the proceedings within the courtroom. But there is Donald Trump. You see, to his left -- I mean, I'm sorry, to our left Todd Blanche, which is a new attorney on his team. And then on the right side of the screen, Joe Tacopina.

I'm sorry, Adam. Please proceed with what you were saying.

KAUFMANN: I just -- I just think that that there will be an admonishment to be temperate in their language.

And I think that if Mr. Trump continues to call the D.A. an animal, continues to incite threats against the prosecutors and the judge, this judge will take control of the proceeding and will issue a gag order and shut that down.


So the photograph is stark and historic as we look at it. Donald Trump with -- I don't know how to characterize his face, but certainly a serious expression on his face.

Alyssa Farah Griffin, is she -- is she with us? If she is, I'd love her to weigh in on what she sees in this in this picture.

GRIFFIN: Jake, I mean, that that that's a man who looks like a defendant. You know, the former president. I've seen that face. Not many times. He's -- he looks somber.


I have to wonder if what he read in the indictment before coming out was more than he anticipated. He obviously went into this knowing it wasn't going to be a good day for him.

You know, he's going to be marked in the history books as the first indicted former president. But this looks like a man who the weight of his actions may be catching up with him. And he feels out of control of the situation, at least for the duration of this arrangement.

He's not going -- he's not in control of the situation. He can't storm out. He can't throw his hands up. He can't, you know, jump up and make a scene or call in the cameras.

He's so used to controlling all aspects of what's going on around him, and this is a moment where he's fully out of control.

TAPPER: David Urban, what are your thoughts when you look at this picture?

DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Jake, kind of to echo with Alyssa says, you know, I've seen the president. Look that way during debates, you know, contemplated, but -- but clearly is a situation has never been in before. It's currently in custody as he sits there at that table?

No. No, Boris isn't there, Boris Epstein, Jason Miller. No campaign people. These are these are criminal defense lawyers there, you know, fighting for his liberty, to put not too fine a point on it.

And, obviously, I'm sure he's thinking about it right. It's not something he would take lightly. And the president is a -- is, you know, is a student of theater and history.

And this is this is bad theater by any way, shape or form for him. It's not, you know, the pomp and circumstance of the State of the Union address or a big rally. This is kind of small ball, and in the worst of ways, right, for him.


MILLER: He went from reality TV to reality, you know. That's how it looks like, it's gone from reality TV. This is not Judge Judy. This is real. And you can see it. You can see it.

And one of the things, David Urban, that was interesting -- I'm sorry, George Conway.

One of the things that was interesting was, between processing in the courtroom, Donald Trump, you know, we saw him come through the door. And he did not look boastful. He did not look Braggadocious, one of his favorite words. He did not look confident.

He did not look the way he looks when he does his rallies. He looked like a defendant, as was just said.

George Conway, what are you thinking as you look at these images?

GEORGE CONWAY, CONSERVATIVE LAWYER: Well, I'm sure he was cautioned to restrain himself. But I agree with what Alyssa said a couple of minutes ago. This is a man who is not in control of the situation, and his personality is the type that tries to control everything and everyone around him.

He thinks everything and everyone around him should do his bidding. And this is a situation where he has absolutely zero control.

I mean, this is -- you know, he's a criminal defendant. And the process is going to take its toll on him and he's going to have to live with the process.

And you know, if he wants to fight with the judge and get -- you know, get gagged, he could try to do that. But he's going to lose in the end.

And I think maybe his lawyer -- I'm sure his lawyers are trying to convey that to him, and maybe some of it has sunk in. Or, you know, maybe tomorrow he'll wake up and he'll do something absolutely insane.



TAPPER: And, Karen, what would -- tell us what is going on right now in that room with those lawyers sitting behind that table at the defendant's table?

AGRIFILO: Yes, so that's -- that's the defendant's table to the right, will be the prosecution table. You can see the chair over there, the purplish color chair, that's going to be where the clerk normally sits, or the court officers.

And you are going to -- and the judges sitting in front in the middle of all of them.

The way they're sitting, that the person all the way at the bottom of the screen with his head towards the woman, that's Todd Blanche. He is the attorney who was just brought on to represent Mr. Trump.

He's sitting in the lead counsel's chair. That's typically where the lead counsel will sit. And so he is sitting -- he's sitting in that in that position.

He was the attorney who represented Paul Manafort when Cy Vance brought charges against -- similar charges, meaning falsifying business records, et cetera against Paul Manafort, that were dismissed on appeal for double jeopardy reasons.

Because if you recall, Mr. Manafort was -- was prosecuted federally. And then, Mr. Trump, actually -- actually pardoned him. And so Cy Vance brought similar charges, slightly different but similar, and it was, on appeal, ruled that it was double jeopardy and that the state couldn't bring those charges.

I would imagine that's one of the reasons he was brought, Mr. Blanche was brought onto Trump's team, that that he was successfully beat their legal arguments. A case brought against somebody who is a Trump ally.


Sitting next to Todd Blanche is Susan Necheles. She's a criminal defense attorney in New York.

She was the lawyer who represented the Trump Organization in the trial that recently went and Alvin Bragg got a 17-count conviction.

A sweeping conviction against the Trump Organization where Allen Weisselberg pled guilty and testified on behalf of the district attorney against the Trump or he did not testify or give up any information about Donald Trump.

But Susan Necheles was -- was one of the lead attorneys in that case. It was before this judge, by the way, Juan Merchen. Same judge, same defense attorney, and some of the same prosecutors.

And then, of course, there's Mr. Trump, and the next to him is Joe Tacopina, who is also well-known criminal defense attorney in New York.

Who is also the lawyer who's representing Mr. Trump in the three -- from three weeks from now in civil court in the E. Jean Carroll rape case that will be going on April 25th.

TAPPER: Yes. And next to him, of course. Boris Epstein, who was -- who was a White House aide to Donald Trump.

John Miller, let me ask you, we see these images of law enforcement officers standing behind Donald Trump and his defense team. Is that normal? Are they there to provide security? Explain to us what's going on there.

MILLER: So that's normal in a day where nothing is normal. Usually, they're there to ensure that there's no trouble from the defendant and that everybody in the courtroom is safe.

And, the way this often goes, is the defendant is brought in from the -- from the pens, the prison cells, to outside the courtroom.

And the judge orders the court officers to remove the handcuffs and, then when the hearing's over, to replace the handcuffs if the defendant isn't being released. So that's their normal place.

What's remarkable about it is that standing in front of them in the defendant is not somebody that they had uncuff or will probably have to re-cuff.

But it's the first time Donald Trump has probably ever been more than four feet from a Secret Service agent, from his security detail.

But right now, he is in the custody of the Manhattan D.A., under the control of these court officers, and under the control of the decision that this judge makes while we're sitting here talking in the next few minutes. TAPPER: And, David Urban, this is not the kind of expression that we're used to seeing Donald Trump, especially in his post presidential life. When it's basically rallies or, you know, Instagram photos with brides and grooms at Mar-a-Lago.

This is a this is a more chastened Donald Trump.

URBAN: You know, interestingly, if you go back to that wide shot again, Jake, you know at that counsel's table, you know Boris Epstein sitting there. And so I'm wondering if he is -- you know -- Elie, if he's if he's registered as counsel.

To sit at the table, don't you have to be -- at the lawyers table, don't you have to be counsel of record for the president?

HONIG: You either have to be admitted in the state of New York or you can be waived in. Sometimes -


HONIG: But can be admitted just for purposes of one particular -


URBAN: I find it interesting. You know, Boris is not a criminal defense lawyer. He's a political adviser.

And so, you know, Jake, the only thing I can think of is he's sitting at that table so any communications he can have with the president moving forward or attorney -- are privileged, and you know, they kind of they can't be -- you know, they can't be subject to disclosure.

It's interesting that Boris is sitting there, I guess. It's -- he's not traditionally a notable criminal defense lawyer, as the rest sitting there at the table.

HONIG: That could be just it. Because if he is serving as a lawyer, then any of his communications with the team of lawyers or with the client, Donald Trump, would be privileged, right.

GRIFFIN: I thought of something even more basic than that, is Donald Trump has certain staff around him to mirror sort of safety blankets for him, people that make him feel comfortable.

He doesn't have long-standing relationships with most of these attorneys to the best of my knowledge. But Boris is somebody who's an original 2016. Or he's somebody that he has a close relationship with. And I think just having that one person near him helps him.

TAPPER: And also, Alyssa, if I could just note these pictures, he's looking right at the at the camera. I mean, the photographers are there.

The still photographers are there. He's looking at them while his attorneys are conferring, or Boris Epstein is looking off to the side. He's looking at the cameras. And he doesn't look like somebody who has -- I mean, we'll see what -- what's in the arrangement, what's in the indictment, rather. We'll see what the charges are.

But he doesn't look like somebody who thinks that the indictment is nonsense.

COOPER: It's also interesting, Jake, I mean, he's just been through a process, which, as Van pointed out earlier, I mean, every criminal defendant goes through.

As he entered the hall of the 15th floor, he didn't even have somebody holding the door open for him. I don't know if you noticed. And we could -- we could replay that video at some point of him making an appearance on the hall.


There's a court officer I believe who enters before him, doesn't hold the door open for him. And the former president actually has to push the door open for himself, which is probably the first time he's had to do that in quite some time.



GRIFFIN: That alone, knowing Donald Trump, will stick with him in -- in a way, just a symbolic way of noticing that the difference the lack of pomp and circumstance, the lack of sort of, you know, service being provided for him.

Just that moment that could have been a stark one that stands out to him.

TAPPER: One other thing that's interesting, Alyssa, and I wonder what insights you can provide for us on this, is that, notably, the former first lady, Melania Trump, did not go from Mar-a-Lago, from Florida to New York with Donald Trump, with her husband, the former president.

Obviously, the underlying activities that are the origin of these charges have to do with him allegedly cheating on his wife with Stormy Daniels not long after she gave birth to their son, Barron.

And I'm wondering if that, in your view, is probably one of the reasons why she didn't make the trip.

GRIFFIN: I have to imagine, just optically, you would think that the former president would want her by his side because of the circumstances of this case.

From what I've seen, he has a very tight-knit group of aides with him, a smaller footprint than he probably travels with.

I'll be curious to see if she's by his side tonight when he gives remarks as he gets back to Florida. I think that would be important since this is a case that directly deals with allegations of an extramarital affair.

TAPPER: Yes. I don't know that I would go so far as to call it an affair. But, yes.

If we could go back to the picture that we just showed a second ago, he was looking off to the distance. He looked really irritated and annoyed. His -- it was a profile photo that we just showed. There it is.

I mean, Jamie Gangel, you've been covering Donald Trump for a long time. That is a pissed off Donald Trump.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT; Right. You know, this is not defiant. We've seen pictures that sort of were sobering. No question that is an angry Donald Trump.

There's two things to point out. In addition to the fact that no one held the door open for him, we have been told that he was likely going to stop in the hallway and speak on his way in.


GANGEL: It did not happen. And I have to wonder if one of the reasons it didn't happen is because he's in custody and they would not allow it to happen on the way in.

The other thing I just want to mention is I spoke to people who have been in civil cases with him before. We see the public Donald Trump. We see what he posts. We see all this fighting and bravado.

And I am told that when he's in a courtroom --and I would think even more so in a criminal case -- that he is going to be respectful of this judge, who not too long ago, he posted and he said, "The judge assigned to my witch hunt case, a case that's never been charged before," capital letters, "hates me."

I'm guessing we will hear a very different report.

TAPPER: And I'm being told by a source in the New York government that the indictment has been unsealed, although it's not live yet on the Web site.

As John Miller reported several days ago, it is 34 charges against Donald Trump. And I'm told that he pleaded not guilty to all 34 of those charges.

And now, of course, we wait to see what those charges are, Carrie Cordero.

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, well, I mean, so -- so we'll see what the actual substance of these charges are and whether they pertain to more crimes or whether they just are that many charges because that's each count of a particular financial transaction, like a check.

But as we're waiting to see what the text of that charging document actually is, as we're watching these visuals, one of the things that stands out to me is just this dichotomy between, on one hand, the justice system trying to treat the former president like any other defendant.

So going through the normal processing, having taken that time where he had to be behind the scenes, and fingerprinted and processed through whatever paperwork needed to be done in New York.

But the other side of the screen showing the extensive security procedures and all of the police presence that's there.

And the fact that there is not the public in the seats behind the defendant and this room is not open to the public just shows how not normal this situation is.


CORDERO: That, despite the justice system may be trying to make this sort of the way other defendants would be treated, it's just not that way. This is a completely unique situation.


TAPPER: Yes. No, I mean, it is an interesting balance of trying to act as though we're all equal under the law and Donald Trump will be treated no differently than anybody else, while also obviously he is a former president.

This has never happened before, Andy McCabe. And also, you know, to be fair, I don't know that a case like this would be brought against Donald Trump, real estate developer, for the same alleged -- I mean, who knows? Maybe it would be.

But on the other hand, who knows?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST; It's really hard to say at this point, having not seen the indictment yet, right? But that's -- that's a decision that I think each one of us has to come to after reading the document.

The D.A.'s office certainly maintains that they bring this charge of falsification of business records, and sometimes with the felony enhancement on a fairly regular basis against white-collar defendants. But again, we don't know what's going to be in this in this document.

I will say, though, Jake, that these photographs of the former president are so striking. But to me, they are very familiar in a way.

Over the course of over 20 years in the FBI, having been with numerous people on arrest and arraignment day, there is an undeniable humility and humanity that comes out against whoever has been called before the court and accused publicly of a crime in this process.

Whether you're -- you know, I've seen it from street-level criminals, all the way up to CEOs and white -- white-collar -- people accused of white collar offenses. This moment, you may be sitting next to your lawyers, but you are alone before a judge and before the law and facing some very serious allegations. And it is a moment that -- that he will never forget, his family will never forget.

And it's -- it's a somber thing, no matter who he is.

TAPPER: And he is an individual, of course, very wealthy to-the-manor- born, who has, in many ways, escaped consequences for actions for decades and decades. So I could see why sitting at that table would be particularly humbling. He probably never thought he would ever have to.

Of course, we're still waiting to find out what exactly the charges are.

But just to repeat my reporting from before, the indictment has been unsealed, a source in New York government tells me. It is not live yet on the Web site.

But there are 34 charges. And I am told from this source in New York government that Donald Trump pleaded not guilty to all 34 counts. We're trying to get more details and information about that.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR & SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think, as we consider why he may not have spoken to the media on his way in, and we will see whether he does on his way out, the gravity of the situation really sitting with him in this moment, I think is really important.

When he comes out and says something, what he says is now in the context of an actual criminal case in which his, you know, actual freedom is on the line. And that's a totally different situation -- situation that he has ever faced before.

And so the normal kind of, you know, rah-rah rally bravado that you would see from Trump would not necessarily be appropriate in this moment.

I cannot imagine a Trump attorney saying, let's put Trump in front of a camera off the cuff and have him say something. They would probably be much more comfortable with him standing in front of a podium reading something that they had cleared.

But it would be very interesting to see if, in this particular context of a criminal case, they say to Trump, go in front of a camera and go for it.

I don't care how many times you plan things with Trump, a lot of times he does what he wants in those moments.

TAPPER: Yes. He definitely goes rogue.

So, Carrie, just to bring context to this, reporting we have from a source in New York government that the indictment has been unsealed and there are 34 counts. And Donald Trump has pleaded not guilty to all 34 when that happens in a courtroom.

When that happens in a courtroom, do they recite each charge to the charge of X, how do you plead and he says not guilty? Or how does it go?

CORDERO: So different practices. But in -- what I would expect is that they would read the charges -- and you may also want to check with our New York lawyers who have been in the New York D.A.'s office in terms of how what their experiences and in the court and Judge Merchen, in particular.

But they would read the entire indictment or he could waive the reading of the indictment.

And so one of the things that we want to listen for is how the actual proceeding before this particular judge went forward.

TAPPER: Let's go to Karen, up in New York.

Karen, how would it proceed? Would they read each one of the 34 charges and he would say not guilty to each one of them, or would it be a waiving of them all and just a plea of not guilty?


AGRIFILO: Typically, the way it's done is a defense attorney will say -- the judge will ask, do you waive the reading of the rights, and the defense attorney will respond, yes, but not the rights there under.

The fact that he's already -- if the reporting is correct, the fact that he's already pled not guilty to all 34 charges leads me to believe that he is a -- that probably did happen here that they waived the reading.