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CNN Live Event/Special

Donald Trump Now Under Arrest; Trump Spokesperson Alina Habba Speaks After Trump Arrest; Donald Trump & Indicted Aide Both Inside Courtroom; Trump Sits Next To His Lawyer In Federal Courtroom As Special Counsel Sits Behind Prosecutors. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired June 13, 2023 - 14:30   ET



SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: But I do think that, if we know anything about Trump, he wasn't your typical president and he didn't always follow procedures and the norms of institutions.

So I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case as this indictment clearly lays out.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Stephanie, Trump is not the only defendant today. His aide, Walt Nauta, is also part of the federal indictment.

It is rare, but we have seen some people who were part of Trump world flip on Trump before. Michael Cohen comes to mind right now.

But as of this moment, Nauta seems to be staying loyal to Trump. Do you know anything about their relationship?

STEPHANIE GRISHAM, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, they were always close in the White House. Of course, he was his usher and personal aide so he would be around him all the time, more specifically when he traveled.

And you go into the hotel rooms, and you get a lot of one-on-one time with the most powerful man in the world in a way that nobody else really does.

So I believe that they're very close. But I think what people need to remember is -- and this was alluded to in the previous interview or the previous reporter said -- he's got to be -- Walt has to be feeling trapped even a little bit right now.

It is very expensive to have to hire attorneys to fight, of course, the justice system but also to fight Donald Trump. He's famous for keeping people up in litigation. I have been subject to it and it's terrifying.

If you don't have the finances to do it, you're going to take any free lawyer you can get.

Another thing I will say, is to leave that circle has got to be scary right now, too. Because it's all-hands-on-deck and the wagons are circling.

TAPPER: Sarah, do you think Nauta is someone Trump can trust, who is, you know, enthralled, who believes all the crazy election lies, et cetera, et cetera, or is it possible that he might flip?

John Dean, from Watergate fame, was on the show yesterday and said that his message to Nauta would be get your own lawyer and start cooperating so that you don't have to go down with the ship.

MATTHEWS: I don't know Walt Nauta personally so I can't speak to where his mind is at and how supportive he is of everything Trump says or does with election lies and things like that.

But I do agree with that advice. I think if we know anything about Donald Trump, loyalty is a one-way street with him. He demands it from everyone but gives it to no one.

So I hope that Walt Nauta is getting sound advice from his loved ones around him to hire a lawyer that is looking out for his best interests rather than Trump's best interests.

And that's typically what happens when you have a Trump-paid lawyer.

For example, you look at Cassidy Hutchinson, one of the key witnesses in the January 6th committee. She had a Trump lawyer at first, and they were encouraging her to do things to help out Trump, not to help out her.

TAPPER: One of the things I'm wondering for both of you -- and I will start with you, Stephanie -- has to do with your reaction to the indictment, the description of how Trump behaved.

Bringing these boxes, showing off, according to the indictment, classified information to just people in the room with him.

Seemingly to push back on accusations against him or to impress them, telling aides to lie, according to the indictment, about turning over the documents to the FBI, et cetera.

Was there anything in there that surprised you? And why -- that's the big question -- why did Donald Trump not just give these documents back? He would have avoided all of this. Stephanie?

GRISHAM: Well, my short answer is, no, not any of this surprised me. It all rang true, even, you know, the why don't we just take those documents out, it wouldn't be a problem, right? That's so him.

And then, you know, I saw him all the time. Well, the public saw him all the time. Think about when we were looking at, you know, information about China at Mar-a-Lago and South Korea and North Korea. I mean, he talks about it all the time.

Why didn't he give them back? It's because he thinks those are his. He's like a child holding onto his little toy train and nobody is going to take it from him.

My reaction is I'm very upset, especially when I saw those pictures.

Jake, you know I practically lived at Mar-a-Lago so some of those places that I saw. I was -- I mean, I was even surprised for Trump that they could have been so, so careless with those documents.

TAPPER: We heard some -- I will go to Sarah in a second.

But we heard Congressman Byron Donalds and Kevin McCarthy saying, Stephanie, the bathroom door is locked and you guys are making too big a deal out of this. There are 33 bathrooms in Mar-a-Lago.

Stephanie, as somebody who spent a lot of time at Mar-a-Lago, is that right?

GRISHAM: Well, there are a lot of bathrooms, sure, and guest rooms. That bathroom particularly was off a room that guests would play bridge and poker in. And so I guarantee, when there were guests in that room, that door wasn't locked.

And most specifically, the stage in the ballroom. That's the one that really got me. That ballroom is right next to a pool where all of the guests are. And it's got, I think, four doors that none were usually locked. And it was sitting on a stage right out in the open.


So, you know, I understand that they are trying to defend Donald Trump but there's absolutely no defense for the way this was stored.

TAPPER: Sarah Matthews, your reaction to the indictment and your answer to my question why? Why would he do this?

MATTHEWS: I think that this indictment kind of perfectly encapsulates Donald Trump in a way that he would think that these documents were his. He called them my boxes.

He didn't think that he needed to give them back. And that's what's so disturbing about this indictment is that he could have avoided this. It's 100 percent self-inflicted.

If he had just returned the documents when asked, then he wouldn't be finding himself in this situation.

TAPPER: Sarah Matthews and Stephanie Grisham, as always thank you for your perspective and insight. Appreciate it.

MATTHEWS: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: Let's talk about this with our panel.

First of all, let me just say, like I am glad and grateful that we have insights from people like Sarah and Stephanie and also Alyssa Farah. They really do open a window into a bizarre world.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST & CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: They do, but it's also very telling that there are people like the three you mentioned and many, many more who are willing and, in some cases, eager to talk about that bizarre world.

Because, according to the way they talk about it, it was and is very, very bizarre.

And the fact that people have cycled through Trump world, particularly as he has become a politician and then president, speaks to the one- way street that we just heard about that Stephanie was talking about when it comes to loyalty.

Which does sort of put into question what is going to happen with Walt Nauta. He is very much in legal jeopardy.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR & CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think they were discussing something that's really important when it comes to Trump. Leaving Trump's inter circle is an extremely difficult thing to do. It's financially taxing.

It is isolating to people who are forced into that position. Walt Nauta is facing that. We don't know what's going through his mind.

But the example of Cassidy Hutchinson, I think, is really instructive in a number of ways. It wasn't just that she wanted to not be led into legal peril by wanting her own lawyer.

But she had to be brought out of that situation, in part, by -- by Liz Cheney, who basically took her under her wing in some ways and helped make that possible for her.

We can't, I think, discount, just on a human level, how difficult it is for people to stray from Trumpism. It's hard to see a world outside of it.

I think a lot of people around Trump don't want to be necessarily considered Never Trumpers.

And so, if you are a Walt Nauta and you're facing real serious legal peril, your choices are stay in Trump world or exit to a very uncertain, and I think for most people, very scary future.

That's going to be a factor in this as we go along in this legal case.

JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR & CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But I think it's critical as Trump plays victim -- which is the playbook he always uses --, listen to the people who have had eyes on him.

Sarah and Stephanie, right there who worked with him, read the indictment, text messages from people who worked with him, the notes from the lawyer who worked with him.

His own voice captured on an audiotape, which CNN's great reporters obtained the transcript of, go back to the January 6th hearings, Trump throws up all this smoke that everybody is out to get him.

But if you read the words of the people, some who have left him, like Sarah and Stephanie have, who have decided they have had enough, and others who are loyal to him and get interviewed under oath in these investigations.

That is where you get the most damning accounts of Donald Trump and his behavior and the cavalier treatment of discussions and government.

And one other quick point, his statements today, this is another moment of choosing, not just for Donald Trump -- he is making history right now, sad history -- but for Republicans again.

Because he has taken a chisel at times, a jackhammer at other times to the institutions of our government.

Jake, what he said about the prosecutor here, he is a thug, that he is a Trump hater, as well as his friends and family.

TAPPER: Friend and family?

KING: Friends and family have no role in this, period.

Go into court and fight the case, get the best lawyers and fight the case. He goes back to rigged elections. He goes back to third-world country.

You cannot keep eroding the institutions of government in a democracy that is based on the rule of law and the systems.

Get the best lawyers, fight the case, win it if you can. Do not attack it. It's dangerous and it's wrong. For a Democrat or Republican. That's not a partisan statement. It's just dangerous. And it's wrong.

And we have plenty in the rearview mirror to tell us that it's dangerous.

TAPPER: Right.

And one of the things you were talk being is how isolated people who leave the Trump circle people feel. Even those who object to Trump's behavior like, presumably, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, has been quiet.

Senator John Thune, the number-two Republican in the Senate, said a little bit, but basically has kept quiet.


Meanwhile, Trump supporters are very active. Republican Senator J.D. Vance, a freshman from Ohio, he just announced that he's going to put on hold all of President Biden's nominees for the Justice Department because of this indictment.

He said, quote, "If Merrick Garland" -- the attorney general -- "wants to use these officials to harass Joe Biden's political opponents, we will grind his department to a halt," unquote.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: So here is a supporter just doubling down and someone with power to do this in the Senate on exactly what John just said. You know, to add to things that Trump has said, he called the special

counsel also a terrorist, a slime ball. He has called the Justice Department the Gestapo.

We are seeing, not just from Donald Trump, but from the Republican Party, Republican Senators undermining the Justice Department and rule of law.

TAPPER: I want to get your reaction, Elie and Andy, to this comment from a Trump lawyer, Alina Habba. She is not involved in this current case but she's acting as a spokesperson for the former president.

She spoke a short time ago outside the federal courthouse in Miami. Take a listen.


ALINA HABBA, SPOKESPERSON FOR FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: In recent years, we have seen the rise of politically-motivated prosecutors who don't care for impartiality, who don't care for due process or equal protection of laws.

They have been quietly but aggressively cultivating a two-tiered system of justice where selective treatment is the norm. From the Russia hoax to the attorney generals to the corrupt D.A.s in Georgia and New York, and now this.

The people in charge of this country do not love America. They hate Donald Trump.


TAPPER: OK. Well, that's a lot of crazy.

But what's your reaction, Elie?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: This type of attack on the motivations and the integrity of these prosecutors is completely unfounded and completely destructive.

And especially when we look at this case because, to Jack Smith's credit, he has taken every step to charge this on Donald Trump's turf. He decided to charge this in Florida.

There is a legal argument, it would have been riskier, that he could charge it right here in Washington, D.C., where he would have had a much more favorable jury pool.

Instead, he's said, I'm charging this in a red state on your turf, Donald Trump.

And on top of that, they filed the case in a district where it was very likely and they did get Judge Aileen Cannon, who is a Trump nominee to the bench.

So there's absolutely nothing underlying that. There's no foundation for these attacks, they're destructive of our whole system.


ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, absolutely right. There is no politics in this document.

This is the indictment. It is replete with facts, with not just bold- faced accusations, but claims that are backed up by evidence.

Read the indictment. That's the Justice Department speaking about the terrible decisions that Donald Trump made around the retention of these documents.

This is a sad day, no doubt. But it's not a sad day because of what you're seeing on these screens.

It's a sad day because a former president of the United States made such a series of disastrous and terrible decisions, conducted himself in such a way as to prompt a grand jury of his peers to determine that there was probable cause to believe that he committed several very serious crimes.

It is a majestic thing that our institutions and our justice system, despite his status, despite his many followers and supporters, has the independence and the wherewithal to try to hold him accountable.

BASH: And could I just -- forgive me, Jamie.

That statement, it was outrageous. It was outrageous.

You were talking, John, about sort of chipping away at democracy. You can make political arguments. But to say that the people prosecuting Donald Trump hate America?


BASH: They're doing this within the confines of what makes America, to quote a phrase, great, and that is our justice system.

TAPPER: Jamie?

GANGEL: Could I just add it's not just Senator J.D. Vance, who is a freshman Senator. Marco Rubio, who is the ranking member of the Intelligence Committee, put on Twitter today:

"The DOJ is seeking to jail for life" -- capital letters -- "not just a former president but the leading opponent of the current president in the 2024 election. The damage this is already inflicting on our country far outweighs the damage," parentheses, "if any, from what they allege in the indictment."


TAPPER: I just think one of the things that's just -- I keep thinking about is the fact that Donald Trump was elected, in no small part, because Republicans professed shock and horror at how then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton treated classified material on a private email server. "Lock her up" was entirely about that case.

And now they are -- not all of them, but many of them are acting as if classified material is something to be taken lightly.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Joining me now is Jason Baron, a former attorney, also a senior counsel -- also former senior counsel at the Justice Department during the George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton administrations. He's also the former director of litigation for the National Archives and Records Administration.

Jason, appreciate you being with us.

You are an expert on the Presidential Records Act, which the former president is using to defend himself.

He posted on Truth Social on Friday after the indictment was unsealed writing, quote, "Under the Presidential Records Act, I'm allowed to do all this."

Is that accurate?

JASON BARON, FORMER DIRECTOR OF LITIGATION, NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION: Absolutely not, Anderson. This day did not have to happen. The Presidential Records Act requires that all documents that are official documents of the White House come into the legal custody of the National Archives immediately when a president leaves office.

When Joe Biden was sworn in at noon on January 20th, 2021, all documents that related to official business needed to go to the National Archives. There is not one single piece of paper that should have been at Mar-a-Lago.

So that transfer of documents was wrong. The fact that the National Archives staff asked for the documents back and wasn't given those documents completely, just got a portion of them, was also wrong.

At every step of the way, the former president has violated the Presidential Records Act.

COOPER: There's been a lot of -- by the former president's supporters -- a lot of comparisons to the fact that President Biden was found recently with -- or discovered he had classified information in various locations. Former Vice President Mike Pence as well.

And there are a number of Republicans, sitting members of the House and others, who are pointing to that and saying this is unequal treatment.

What is the difference between the president's treatment of these documents and Pence or Biden?

BARON: Well, in the case of President Biden and former Vice President Pence, there were mistakes that evidently happened with staff intermixing some materials with personal materials.

This is completely different. This is a former president who has elected to transfer a number of boxes to his personal residence intentionally. And as the indictment sets out, he had no reason to do so under the act.

So, yes, there have been some cases of inadvertence, but this is of a different magnitude all together.

COOPER: Jason Baron, I appreciate your time.

I have to go to Kaitlan Collins with some breaking news -- Kaitlan?

COLLINS: Yes, Anderson, we are now learning more about what is happening inside the courtroom behind the courthouse behind me. Of course, we don't have cameras in there, we don't have audio in there, our reporters in there can't actually use their phones in the building. So that is how we're getting the picture of what it actually looks like inside there.

We have been told that former President Trump and his aide, Walt Nauta, also now his co-defendant, are both in the room now together.

Of course, that's what makes this notable today, that it is not only going to be Trump. He won't be the only defendant in the room like he was when he was indicted in New York and had that arraignment there in Manhattan. There are going to be two of them in the room today, Trump and Nauta.

If you read through that 49-page indictment, you see just how much he used Walt Nauta to move boxes, to mislead his own attorney, moving boxes into his residence, only bringing some of the boxes back when his attorney went to go through them.

Joining me now as we wait to hear more about what is happening inside the courthouse, CNN's Paula Reid and also Marcos back with us.

The fact of what's happening inside there and that there are two co- defendants in there, one of them being a former president of the United States, one being his aide.

You know, what do you make of just the historic nature of not just Trump facing charges but also the fact that his 40-year-old valet is also going to be at that table with him?

MARCOS JIMENEZ, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTH DISTRICT OF FLORIDA: Well, listen, I think he's the reason, the conspiracy is the reason why Trump was indicted in the first place. If this was just a retention of documents by mistake or if it was really just not returning them all on a timely basis, we wouldn't be here.

But Donald Trump was indicted solely because, I think, he conspired with his co-defendant. He made false statements or caused false statements could be made in connection with the investigation. He concealed material documents in connection with the investigation.


And that's what put this case over the top. Not to mention the fact that he showed the classified information to private citizens.

What's astonishing to me is that they had dinner together last night and that they rode apparently here together.


PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: He is one of his closest aides. He's a personal aide. He gets him Diet Cokes and moves boxes around for him and does things like that. He's still working for him.

JIMENEZ: Right, but in a criminal case, when you have two co- conspirators, you don't want, in the normal case, to have them seen together or talking to each other.

The lawyers will talk to themselves and work together, but they will keep the clients generally apart, because it could lead to even more obstruction of justice.

So if Nauta decides to plead guilty down the road, he could talk about anything that happened at dinner last night. He could talk about all of the conversations that he had with Trump, even after he was indicted.

COLLINS: And, of course, still the question of what that relationship looks like going forward.

And, Paula, we are also learning, as we are getting more from our colleagues inside the courthouse, Jack Smith, the special counsel, he is inside of that room. We're told he's sitting behind one of the prosecutors.

But the fact that Trump, on the way here, he was railing against Jack Smith, and he has been calling him derange and all of the other ugly accusations on social media, and now they're face to face in the same room together for the first time.

And we're not able to see it, of course, because cameras are not allowed in the courtroom.

REID: Of course. I mean, this is a moment, right? This is the first time the former president is coming face-to-face with the man who made him the only former president to ever face federal criminal charges.

We were told not to report that Jack Smith is here, because of the security concerns. And there were really significant security threats for the entire special counsel team. But this is a significant moment.

And I have no doubt that the former president will be posted out, under observation on social media.

But he is here. This is the initial hearing, an arraignment without the special counsel who we really have not seen at all before his statement the other day.

And we have not heard much at all to come to conduct this hearing. It shows how seriously he is taking this.

In his statement the other day, he made a few key points. He said, for him, this is a matter of life and death, the potential mishandling of classified documents puts lives at risk. And that's why he believes this case is so significant.

He also talked about the integrity, the ethics of his office. Of course, as you know, the Trump team had attacked him repeatedly.

And he also said he wants this to move quickly. And that's going to be attention here. You know the former president wants to delay this, would certainly not like to not go to trial before the election.

But the special counsel wants to move this along as quickly as possible. So this is definitely going to be an interesting moment.

COLLINS: Yes, on that note, Jack Smith in the room with Trump, the defendant, who, right now, is under arrest for the second time in less than a month. They're in there together.

When Jack Smith came out and made that brief public statement following the indictment and it was unsealed, he said that he wants a speedy trial.

What are the options there?

Because, obviously, the Trump team could delay this. And that could be potentially delayed, and what they have said to us is that it is in their favor.

JIMENEZ: Well, under the Speedy Trial Act, you have to go to trial very quickly, relatively -- in 70 days, but you can extend that, and it is the defendant's choice to extend it.

COLLINS: So Trump has to come -- his legal team would have to come out and say that we want to delay this?

JIMENEZ: Right. We waive the speedy trial. If a motion to dismiss or a motion to suppress evidence is going to take a long time to resolve or it'll be appealed, the judge says, OK, but you have to waive the Speedy Trial Act.

And I agree he is going to delay this and milk this as much as he can and not go to trial ever, if he can.


I talked to one of the former attorneys yesterday, saying that they could try to push it until after the election.

And if he is re-elected, what that looks like and the implications are for that. Todd Blanche is the attorney in the room with Trump right now. He is the one taking helm on this case after Jim Trusty and others have withdrawn last week.

Paula, Todd Blanche, from what we know about him, how is he approaching this? He's only been on that legal team since April.

REID: Right. He's joined by Chris Kise, the former Florida solicitor general because Todd Blanche does not have the proper license to appear in this court. They needed someone to wave him in.

This is the first step. These two guys, Chris Kise and Todd Blanche can get the president through this arraignment. But we know they need to find a competent local counsel at practice in this district who has the experience.

But I am also told by the local lawyers, most of the best defense attorneys in Florida have their own practice and other clients.

And this is a full-time job where they have a notoriously difficult client, who we've been told there are concerns about him paying their bills. There are concerns about reputational damage.

But otherwise, this is the case of the lifetime, right? Fascinating constitutional questions.

But it's also been a case, where you know, for the past several years, it's hard for the former president to find attorneys.


And so Chris and Todd can move it through the first few steps, but this is the very beginning of what's going to be a long and drawn out, but truly, truly historic case.

COLLINS: Can we talk about the threats, the concerns over reporting that Jack Smith would be appearing here today, and the concerns, not only for his safety, but also everyone on the special counsel team?

Because we know, not only is Trump attacking Jack Smith, but we saw reports earlier today that they're also looking into the names that Evan Perez reported earlier, about him joining the team to beef it up as this gets ready to go to trial.

REID: Yes, absolutely. You are a target any time you go up against the former president, because he is using bully pulpit to rally supporters. And there is often, if not direct, indirect calls for retaliation against people who go up against him.

And so, in speaking to sources close to the special counsel's office, there are concerns every time we use the names of the prosecutors.

But they are also involved in one of the most historic significant cases. They're decisions impact really U.S. history.

So we do use some of their names. We do report on them. We do show some of them.

But Jack Smith has been so elusive. At one point, we asked for a new head shot of Jack Smith, because we had one of him from the Hague, kind of like the Hogwarts. He asked for a traditional government photo. That was denied.

I mean, he has no real interest of going into the media, and drawing more attention to himself. That is why I am surprised at the statement.

COLLINS: Yes. On that, what we just heard from another Trump attorney, Alina Habba, who is not handling the case, but she was the attorney who came out and spoke with the media.

We were listening to her comments a few moments ago there when Jake was playing it. And she said that they don't love America, those who are prosecuting Trump in this case.

You kind of had a visceral reaction to that. You're a Republican, a former Republican who has been in this courthouse many time, and prosecuted many cases.

Do comments like that help when there are concerns about the safety of the prosecutors even when you disagree with them?

JIMENEZ: No. In plain speak, she is a hack. That is the most outrageous thing I have heard someone say about a case. You can be political, but to be -- what Trump said is outrageous.

And there is an adage that, if the law is against you, argue the fact, and if the facts are against you, argue the law, and if both the fact and the law is against you, argue the prosecutor.

And this is Trump on steroids. And Jack Smith has been a consummate professional. The federal government talks in court.

And so I think that it is appropriate, when you bring in an indictment, to make a brief statement. I did it many times as a U.S. attorney, you talk about the charges.

But it is incredibly important to explain to the American people why classified information matters. The disregard and complete disrespect for classified information and the rule of law set forth in this indictment is astonishing.

COLLINS: I should note, CNN, we have several reporters inside of the building. We are learning that with exclusive information that the hearing has started, the former president is under arrest, and he before Judge Goodman. He is going to utter the words and plead not guilty.

And, Paula, one person we're learning is also in the room, is also Jay Bratt, who is the head-who was actually one of the attorneys. He went down to Mar-a-Lago on June 3rd to collect those classified documents from Evan Corcoran, the Trump attorney who went through the boxes, not knowing that Walt Nauta had moved some of them. And he was also on hand the day they executed the search warrant. He

is an incredibly significant presence on this special counsel's team.

REID: Yes, he is - represents a continuity from the Justice Department's investigation to the time this was handed over to the special council, Jack Smith.

That's why it's significant that he continued on. There were questions about whether he could join the special counsel's office. He did.

Again, he has been a consistent investigator in this case. Arguably, the top prosecutor before Jack Smith came in.

And there is no love lost between Jay Bratt and the former president's legal team. They have publicly attacked him, levied accusations against him. But it's likely that he will be leading most of the case.

And this is, for the defense attorney, a full-time job and occupation for him. He's a very experienced prosecutor. And particularly in the national security matters.

He has been in this case throughout the entire thing. And it is great to have that continuity, because Jack Smith was just appointed in November after former President Trump announced that he would make another run for the White House.

So it is significant to be seeing Jack Smith, but Jay Bratt will be taking the helm, and expects more attacks from the Trump team.

COLLINS: Paula, Marcos, thank you.


And, Anderson, of course, Jay Bratt is a significant figure, because it is just over a year ago that Jay Bratt was in the Mar-a-Lago dining room meeting with two Trump attorneys.

I should note, as it plays out in the indictment, as we reported at the time, the former president stopped by, telling the Justice Department official that he was like an open book.