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Trump Pleads Not Guilty To All 37 Charges; Judge Rules Trump Cannot Talk To Indicted Aide Walt Nauta About Case; Trump Leaves Court After Not Guilty Plea. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired June 13, 2023 - 15:30   ET



JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And law enforcement is being very, very cautious. John King, let me ask you while we wait to see if anybody comes out that door. Ron DeSantis, the governor of Florida, who is also running for president, said something interesting. He said that he didn't understand why there were two different systems of justice. One for Hillary Clinton and Democrats, one for Donald Trump. That's something that we hear a lot of Republicans say.

Then he also said that if he had done -- I think an Army JAG, I think he was Army -- if he had done what Hillary Clinton had done, he would have been court-martialed in a New York minute. That was the term he used. Well, he did not go on to make the next logical argument, but one could. Is that not also making the argument that if what Trump and Clinton did is comparable, and he would be court-martialed in a New York minute for what Clinton did. Doesn't that also mean he would be court-martialed in a New York minute for what Trump did. Even though as we know from all our legal experts, what Trump did is far, far worse.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: If your guide is the law and the rules and then you might say, I believe they made a mistake in The Hillary Clinton case. You can say that and Republicans can argue that if they wish. And there certainly, you know, the public statement, and the Comey statements during the election, the decision not to charge, that is an issue of very fair debate.

But to your point is -- and I think Andy made this point last night -- you can say that, you know, a prosecutor in any case, you know, that was not handled right. That was a mistake. That did not go the way the law thinks it should have gone. So, here we are now. Do you treat this case differently because a mistake was made in the past about somebody else? Or people believe a mistake was made in the past about somebody else. So what you said is absolutely right, if you apply intellectual consistency in a straight-line theory if it's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong. But welcome to politics.

TAPPER: So, one of the arguments we've heard being made in recent days is that that decision that Gerald Ford, the President of the United States made the pardon Richard Nixon was a mistake. Because he never saw justice, and this, is in some way, paved the way for today. Because there was this creation of presidents not being held accountable or former presidents. I am wondering what John Dean, a famous Watergate witness, former general counsel at the White House thinks about this. Let me bring John in.

John, you've heard this argument made in recent days and weeks and I am wondering what you think.

JOHN DEAN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL TO PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, at the time I thought that Ford had done the right thing. It was the only way to sort of bring everything to a resolution so he could govern. They could get on with the business of government. But no one anticipated the precedent. Jake, I've watched two prior presidents be under intense investigation, and special prosecutor type investigations.

One is Richard Nixon, and of course he didn't like it. The other is Bill Clinton. I watched him too. They while grumbling complied and played by the rules. But we're watching with Trump -- as Abby Phillip said just a minute ago -- Trump's invited the behavior and the reaction to it and because he keeps doubling down. He tries to make things worse rather than better.

And I think that's why he has gotten himself into the situation he is in today unlike the predecessors who honored and went with the process. They did not attack the process. So it's very troubling he is doing that and that his followers are joining him. And I think that bodes ill for the country, and we're under a test.

TAPPER: And what do you make of the response we're seeing from Trump supporters in the House, in the Senate and even those who want to defeat him and the path for the presidential nomination?

DEAN: It's very disappointing that no one is willing to take a leadership position and say, this is a time when you let the process play out, and whether they're attacking the process. They're saying it's a time of war. It's an eye for an eye. To get to Trump you've got to go through me and I'm in NRA member. So, this is just hyperbole to try to further to divide the country and is very unhealthy. And as I say, I think that's part of the test we're under. And I don't know who's going to calm these people down. Hopefully the American people themselves will get their act together and say, we don't want this kind of behavior when we are testing the system.

TAPPER: Do you believe that Fox and Newsmax, and others in the right- wing ecosystem where alternate facts are shared, such as the election was stolen, et cetera, et cetera. Do you think if that had existed during Watergate that Richard Nixon would have felt compelled to resign?

DEAN: There's no doubt that Watergate would have played out differently had there been a Fox News. In fact, Nixon is one of the people who envisioned a Fox News and more conservative coverage of Republican politics.


But I don't think he ever could have envisioned using that as a tool to somehow control misbehavior by any government official. So he is somebody who actually honored the law. Who at the end, did the right thing by resigning. And Ford could have never -- to go back to original question -- Ford could have never pardoned Nixon had he done what Trump has done which is to double down. Had Nixon said, if the president does it, that means it's illegal. Before that pardon was issued, I doubt he would have ever gotten a pardon.

All right, John Dean, thank you so much, really appreciate your time. Let's go back to Kaitlan Collins in Miami.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Yes, Jake, of course, we're getting more from inside of the courthouse. And Paula, the question over what the judge said about Trump's interaction with witnesses in this case is really important, because there's a lot of them. And a lot of them still work for him. Two of them are actually here with him here today that we know of. What is exactly the standard here?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, in most cases, you can't talk to anyone who might be a witness in a criminal prosecution against you. And as you noted, this is so unique because everyone who works at Mar-a-Lago from the gardener all the way up to the chief operating officer of the Trump Organization has testified in this case. So when it comes to his co-defendant Walt Nauta, the judge did recognize, they have a close working relationship. This is one of his closest personal aides. They're also his co-defendant.

So, the judge said, OK, with Walt, you cannot discuss the case except through your lawyers. Now that's difficult to enforce. But then when it came to all the other witnesses, the judge initially said, you can't speak to any other witnesses in the case. But then were told the Trump team objected because he said, look, these people work for the Trump Organization. As I said, it's almost the entire staff at his club.

So what they're going to do is the government is going to make a list, we are told, of people who Trump cannot discuss the case with and then there going to resolve this going forward. But this is going to be one of the most complicated aspects of this case. How do you sort of partition off people who the prosecution needs from the defendant?

And Evan Perez, you're our senior justice correspondent. You were in the courtroom, I should note, just a few minutes ago and then ran out here to us. How do they make a list like that? What does that look like? Because as CNN has reported, you know, everyone from a maintenance worker who drained one of the pools at Mar-a-Lago has gone before the grand jury. Margot Martin, one of the aides whose with him here today. Evan Corcoran, one of -- still not his attorney on this case but is still an attorney for him. What does that look like?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, look, it's one of the things, one of the many, many aspects of this case that is unlike any other. Right? And the former president has a campaign that's ongoing. So, that's the another part of this. And so, we know that going in, the Justice Department knew that this was going to be a tricky situation.

And I think judging from how previous cases have gone -- in cases where is sort of the corporate client -- a corporate defendant has people who work for him. They are being -- they would be ordered to make sure they cannot speak about the case. It is self-policed, and it is something that the judge and, you know, the court of course is overseeing all of this. And with the idea that if you break the rule, if you disobey the judge's order, obviously, there is going to be consequences. So that's really the only way to do this.

The Justice Department I think is not going to be very pleased with this arrangement. I think they would rather have a no kind of contact whatsoever, but they do recognize that this is someone, again, an organization -- it's not a very large company.

But pretty much everyone who has been called in to be a witness in this case. So they also anticipate that some of this is going to end up being a legal fight with the former president's legal team. It is something that going to be fought over in the coming weeks. It's not going to be done today and that's one reason why, you know, usually these hearings are like 10 minutes. It tells you why they're still in there.

COLLINS: Yes, and that went essentially when we talked about what this looks like and how many people -- that's how knew that this was wrapping up, because what we were hearing from legal sources is that they talked to basically everyone. But I think the person that matters the most for, is Walt, that relationship. Because the question is, would he flip on the former president. We have no indication that he would do that. But I mean, that I think is the biggest question here.

REID: It's the biggest question here, and you're absolutely right. He's been under so much pressure over the past several months. Threatened repeatedly and being charged specifically with false statements and now he is charged in a conspiracy. This is considerable to go up against the Justice Department in any federal matter. And look, I am told that the former president has gotten a lot better about keeping people who could potentially flip on him in the fold after lessons that he learned, I am told, from the whole Michael Cohen situation.


So one of the key aspects of Trump's legal strategies going forward, needs to be keeping Walt Nauta on your side and preventing him from flipping. But at some point, just legally speaking, based on our reporting, his interests and those of the former president will diverge. And Walt Nauta will have a very difficult decision and the biggest consequence for him will be losing his Trump aligned lawyers. His lawyer is currently paid for by a Trump aligned political organization, and you don't cooperate with the former president, you don't get that kind of counsel.

COLLINS: And also, Nauta and his attorney are at the center of some of the allegations that this legal team has making about the special counsel office conduct.

George Conway is also joining us now. George, when you hear what Evan and Paula are reporting about what the judge decided when it is coming to Trump's level of contact when these witnesses given how widespread they are. I mean, if you walk around Mar-a-Lago, you're essentially going to run into a witness in this documents investigation. What do you make of that?

GEORGE CONWAY, CONSERVATIVE LAWYER: It's a perfect thing for a judge, an arraignment judge, to tell a defendant not to be speaking to other defendants. I mean, it's in the defendant's best interest not to do that. But this is in fact a unique circumstance where all of these people are with him in a functioning or dysfunctioning organization or organizations, the Trump Organization and the Trump campaign. So it is an unusual circumstance.

But I think it would be wise for all of those individuals who are working with Donald Trump themselves to refrain from having any conversations with Donald Trump relating to anything relating to this case, because they are putting themselves at risk, and they have much greater additional risk than Donald Trump does, because I think they have Donald Trump dead to rites.

COLLINS: all If the government though -- if the government is creating a list of witnesses in this case that he can have interaction with, maybe not about this case, but he can have interaction with them. What does a list like that even start look like given it includes not only his co-defendant who was there today, also the spokesman for the political PAC who was recently. A maintenance worker, one of his attorneys who's handling the January 6th case, one of his political aides who travels with him essentially everywhere he goes, how do you decide who makes that list and who doesn't?

CONWAY: Well, think the government is going to do that on the basis of who they think is going to be on their witness list or on anybody's witness list at this trial. I think they want to make sure, and they want to create the conditions that help ensure that there is no witness tampering by Donald Trump. And he has a history of trying to, and we have seen it in the Mueller investigation with his tweets. We've seen it in other ways, and we saw it in the January 6th hearings that there was some effort to contact witnesses.

You know, he's a man who know no boundaries and knows no rules and doesn't think the rules apply to him. And it's important to at least try to set a marker to try to get him to obey some rules. And it frankly, it protect him if he were to follow along with all of these instructions. And it puts everyone else around him on notice that they are at risk having any conversation with him in any way about this.

COLLINS: Yes, George, I think that was definitely clear today from seeing one of his closest aides at the defendant -- as a co-defendant in the courtroom with him. Anderson, back to you.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Kaitlyn, thanks so much. Joining us right now is the former director of national intelligence, George Clapper. And CNN military analyst, Ret. Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling. George Clapper, when you look at this indictment and you see what the former president is being accused of, 31 counts of willful retention of national defense information. We know one document discussed U.S. nuclear secrets, another detail nuclear capabilities in a foreign country. What goes through your mind? That it spilled on the floor, we saw some of these documents. I mean, how dangerous is this potentially? JAMES CLAPPER, FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Well, I think

I probably speak for Mark, between the two of us, we served probably 80 or 90 years. And while it's part of that devoted to protection of sensitive information. So I really have a lot of trouble getting past the recklessness, the carelessness, the irresponsibility in the handling of these highly sensitive documents which could quite conceivably jeopardize the safety and security of this nation.

Not to mention perhaps risking lives. There is no telling how many hundreds, maybe thousands of people had potential access to those documents at Mar-a-Lago, and that place has to have been a prime target for foreign intelligence services.

COOPER: General Hertling, if you were a serving officer, and you had even a fraction of these documents, what would have happened to you?


LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well you know, Jake mentioned a minute ago, Anderson, about how Governor DeSantis, I will include Senator Graham, Ron Bacon from Nebraska, and all of them served in the military. Yes, they did. Bacon was a retired one star. DeSantis was a short-time Navy JAG. Lindsey Graham was a retired colonel Air Force JAG. So all of them know the implications of this. What I'd say is that I'd back up what director Clapper just said.

This is not as much of a document case to me as it is a national security case. There have been literally been hundreds of documents found in the former president's home in Mar-a-Lago, all of those represent the work of literally, well I'd say probably thousands of intelligence analysts, military analysts, State Department officials who have collected information that would serve decision makers in making the best decisions for the United States and for our people.

And to have someone use them, to abscond with them and say, these are my documents that he puts in a box next to a WWE belt or a "New York Post" article clipping and say these are my document, no, no, these are documents made by people of the United States.

COOPER: General, I don't mean to interrupt you, I apologize. We're told the hearing is now over. We're seeing some activity outside the courthouse at the exit where the former president will be coming out. The hearing though has ended. We're not sure if the former president has made his way back to his vehicle, back to the garage where they first entered. But it looks like there's a lot of activity. Kaitlyn Collins is outside. Kaitlan, are you hearing anything?

COLLINS: Yes, Anderson, just to know, I mean, this is what happens when no audio and no cameras are allowed in the courtroom. I don't know if you can see this behind me is my camera. There are people running out of the courthouse right now. Those are reporters and press who have been there in four several hours and then they started going in at about 8:00 this morning. But they weren't allowed to take the phones in.

They weren't allowed to obviously have cameras or any audio recordings as well. So, they've just been there observing. What we've been reporting on our reporters in the courthouse has been -- and telling what's been happening behind those closed doors and now you can tell it's over, because people are running out of the courthouse. Paula and Evan are back with me. Paula, what are you learning?

REID: So, we're learning from Hannah Rabinowitz who was inside in the courtroom and our whole team in there, that Walt Nauta did not enter a plea. It appears from our reporting that he did not have local counsel, which you need to enter an appearance here. So it appears based on what were hearing from inside the courtroom, that his arraignment will be in a few weeks.

So I mean, this a technicality. You have to have somebody who is barred in the southern district of Florida. His attorney Stan Woodward, mostly practices up in Washington, D.C. So, he'll have to either get local counsel or have local counsel waive Stan Woodward in, so that he can represent him in his arraignment going forward. And he has not entered a plea, but we expect it will be a plea of not guilty.

COLLINS: Why not have local counsel here today who could waive his attorney?

REID: That's a great question, Kaitlan. We know the former president has had difficulty finding local counsel. It's been a pretty tight timeline for them. It is a little bit surprising that this was not lined up sooner. We also know there was some attorneys in the former president's orbit who might have been able to just step in if they hadn't represented former President Trump. But at this point, again, it is a little surprising they didn't line this out. But this is just a technicality and we will have his arraignment in the next few weeks.

PEREZ: We also know that, you know, certainly for Nauta, one of the complications is that his legal team, his legal team fees have been paid for by a Trump political committee. And there are some lawyers who would be uncomfortable with that. They obviously, they want to be paid, but they also want to make sure that, you know, they are representing their client and not their client by virtual -- or you know, as a result of the interest of another client.

COLLINS: So they would be uncomfortable with -- because they'd working alongside his other attorney Stan Woodward in this case, right?

PEREZ: Right, exactly.

REID: Yes, it's always been a problem, as you know, with the former president finding the legal counsel. There are worries about him paying the bills. We've been told that major firms -- they're concerned about -- what Evan just talked about -- reputational damage, and even alienating other clients potentially. So it's difficult for the former president and someone who's a co-defendant equally difficult. But it's likely he will be able to find someone in the next few weeks.

But there are these questions about how he's paid. Trump is not paying the bills, but there's the Political Action Committee that is aligned with former President Trump who's paying his bill. So, there could be concerns about that. There would also concerns about potentially representing someone whose, again, interests might diverge from the former president at some point.

COLLINS: Yes, and I mean, Walt is a big part of that given Walt Nauta is at the center of the case. And so, so when he comes back, he would just come back he'd the sole defendant in the courtroom then when he would have his local attorney.

REID: Exactly. Unlikely to arrive by motorcade again, as he did this time. But he and Stan Woodward likely to come to an arraignment in a few weeks.


He would be expected that he would plead not guilty in this case. And then, you know, then we'll get underway with motions. I think you're going to see a lot of challenges from the former president's legal team to previous decisions about executive privilege, about attorney/client privilege.

They are going to argue, I'm told, they're going to say look, the special counsel always assumed that they would bring this case in Florida but they decided to litigate all of these issues, conduct this investigation in front of a more friendly judge up in Washington, D.C. Now they're going to want to revisit -- the Trump team will want to revisit all of those issues, executive privilege, down here in front of Judge Cannon. Now I'm not sure legally they're going be successful on that. But I do think it will, if nothing else, help them delay this. Which is part of their goal.

COLLINS: Yes, and what's so notable, I was told that Trump's team got that target letter from the Justice Department not last Friday, but the Friday before that. And so that is when it was definitely clear to them. Obviously, there have been a few witnesses coming in to speak to the grand jury here.

So all of this is actually something that we've learned about pretty recently. Even the mayor of Maimi, I was talking to him earlier about the security concerns. And he was saying essentially, they weren't prepared because they just found out recently that this was going to be happening here.

REID: Yes, it's a reminder, right? I always say our reporters know more than anybody. And this did catch us off guard. It's relatively new in the past few weeks. But you can do this. You can conduct an investigation in one district and then move it to a different one. But in order to do that you have to read the grand jury into all of the testimony and that is what they've been doing over the last few weeks.

And the last witness that we saw go in was Taylor Budowich. Who is formally Trump's spokesman, now works at his political action committee. So, I'm really curious if they are -- why view as the last witness we saw. But I'm going to throw it back to you.

COLLINS: Then he didn't seem to be someone who had obviously a ton of involvement. I don't know, maybe will learn more. Katelyn Polantz is joining us here. You have not seen her for several

hours. She has been inside that courthouse watching all of this play out -- as no cameras and audio were allowed. Tell us what it was like in there.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: I mean, it's hushed. That is what a federal courtroom is like. It is very solemn. And Donald Trump did not say a single word in this hearing. He was asked if he was pleading not guilty. And his attorney Todd Blanche stood up and said we most certainly enter a plea of not guilty. Donald Trump was not asked any direct questions from the judge. And he also was not made to stand up at any time and address the court himself.

And then at the end of the hearing, he wasn't really looking around. He was primarily sitting very hunched over. So he actually looked shorter than the rest of the people sitting around him, both lawyers on either side -- Chris Kise and Todd Blanche. And he sat as the judge spoke and as they walked through things, with his arms crossed, leaning back, clearly a scowl. And I could see his profile. So I was sitting over to the side.

And then at the end of court, occasionally he would look at the Justice Department. There were three lawyers there. Jack Smith was also in the room. There were many security detail. There were people around Jack Smith. Three different security people on his side. Many people from the special counsel's office and then two full rows sitting behind Donald Trump of just security people observing the former president and actually former president is how the judge, Jonathan Goodman, addressed Trump throughout. He didn't call him the defendant, which is typical or Mr. Trump, which is also typical. He addressed him over and over again as the former president.

And then the big moment, the thing that took the most time through this, after the not guilty plea was entered. There is a moment where the Justice Department and Donald Trump's defense team had come to an agreement to allow them to -- to allow him to be released with essentially no restrictions whatsoever. He could travel everywhere. He wouldn't have to turn over a passport. And they didn't initially want to really restrict his ability to speak to others. But then the judge initially wanted to do that. He wanted --

COLLINS: That was the judge's decision, not from the special counsel?

POLANTZ: No, and the special counsel and Trump's team actually were in agreement coming into court. That they didn't want to impose anything like that and the judge said, you know, it's typical in this district, southern district of Florida, to put some sort of restrictions around this and I would like to create a list so he can't speak to some people.

And there was some discussion about, well, maybe -- perhaps the judge would be satisfied with dividing a list in two. So that there are people that are working for Donald Trump directly who may interact with him on a daily basis at Mar-a-Lago, or in his political campaign life. Where those people he could interact with them. Because his employees, Walt Nauta included, but perhaps they can't speak about the details of the case.

But, at the end of the day, Trump's attorney Todd Blanche stood up, there were other people that the judge was considering putting on a list that would be no contact whatsoever. Todd Blanche was able to convince the judge that actually there are a lot of people around that would witness in this case.


And the Justice Department doesn't even have a witness list at this point. So they're going to go back and create a list and the list will be provided by the Justice Department to Trump's team and it will be that people --

COLLINS: Could they object to anyone on the list do you think?

POLANTZ: Well we won't know until we see it. And we won't know if the defense can see it. They will be able to oppose it in court and take it back to the judge if they want. But this list will be in place, that the Justice provides and it will make it so that there will be certain people that Trump cannot talk to about the details of this case itself, the facts of this case.

COLLINS: Katelyn, I want to get back to you because obviously this is fascinating perspective from inside the courthouse. But CNN's Shimon Prokupecz, you're watching as this the motorcade of the former president leaving the courthouse after he has just pleaded not guilty. Shimon, what are you seeing from your vantage point?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well you could see here, Kaitlan, all of the Trump supporter are now out on the street as they wait for the former president here to pass by. You see here one of the SUVs, we believe he's in the third SUV. Or the middle SUV here. You could see, let's see if he's in this one, Kaitlan. Yes, there he is waving. He's waving. There he is. Thumbs up, Kaitlyn.

And you could see here, there are the police. The Secret Service now pulling someone -- the Secret Service after someone ran. And obviously now the Secret Service pushed some people back and the officers pushing people back. So a little chaos here, Kaitlan. Which is probably -- I don't expect it given the fact that there are no barricades here. And many of the people have been able to stay on the street. What's that Kaitlan?

COLLINS: Yes, and Shimon, was it clear to you that was a Trump supporter or a counter-protester who ran out in front of the motorcade?

PROKUPECZ: That is right. There was a -- he's now on the ground there. You could see in our shot. He ran in front of the motorcade and police are now holding him down and arresting him. But this is an individual --

COLLINS: Oh, he was running out in front of cars earlier.

PROKUPECZ: I just want you to take a listen on what's going on here. That is right, Kaitlan. He was running in front of cars earlier. The police are now trying to --

COLLINS: I think we may have lost Shimon there. But obviously, that what you saw was the former president's motorcade exiting the courthouse. It's a bit chaotic there. Of course, there are not barricades keeping the people who have arrived here at the courthouse. Have been here for several hours away from that. Obviously, this is the former president's motorcade leaving as he's just now departed the courthouse.

Katelyn Polantz is here with us. Katelyn, you were inside the courtroom for this historic arraignment and the former president. You were talking about his interactions. Did he ever -- did he even look at Jack Smith. This is the first time he and Jack Smith have ever been in the same room together.

POLANTZ: Yes, I mean, that was actually really astonishing to see Smith. Because Smith is not very far from Trump and they are -- you can be in a courtroom and be very far from someone, have a lot of people between you. But there's only about two people between, and just, you know, 10 feet or so between Smith sitting on the edge of one of the seats and then Trump sitting at the defense table.

Now, one of the things that was so interesting about this is that Trump really was not looking around. He was whispering to his attorney Todd Blanche. Blanche at one time seemed to be making a joke during the proceedings for Walt Nauta, which happened in the second half of the hearing. And you know, he just wasn't very emotive. He was, you know, having his arms crossed. He was leaning back or he was hunching over, having these whispers with, you know, his attorney, Todd Blanche, occasionally others would sort of lean over and chat.

But it really wasn't this huge moment where he was looking around or looking at even who was in the room behind him. But when he did leave, you know, as the courtroom ended the proceedings, the judge stood up, everyone stands up, he was the last person in the courtroom to stand up. Or one of the very last people in the courtroom to stand up as the judge leaves the bench.

And then he turned around, his detail had filed out and he gave a good long look at all of the supporters or the press that were behind him. Because the room was filled with both the public, some clear Trump supporters. I believe there was one MAGA hat. And the press who were in the room observing this and he was let out separately from his attorneys, Walt Nauta was as well. They were taking out the side door of the courtroom.

COLLINS: What did you observe about Walt Nauta himself? I mean, he is -- he is relatively young. He is very unknown. And of course, Paula was reporting, you know, his arraignment now delayed because he didn't have local counsel here. He was here actually to have him plead not guilty. Did you observe anything from Walt Nauta as you were sitting there in the room?

POLANTZ: Yes, I mean he also was just really sitting at the counsel table.