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CNN Live Event/Special
RFK Jr. Hearing Puts Censorship, Misinformation In Spotlight; Soon, Deadline For Trump Response To Target Letter; Trump Adviser Asked About Their Interactions In Office; Authorities Now Searched For The Alleged Witness Of The Tupac Murder At A Home In Nevada; Florida Schools Teaching Slavery Draws Backlash; Chris Wallace Interviews Matt Damon On Oppenheimer And The Connection To The Hiroshima Bombing. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired July 20, 2023 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: He allegedly used a fake name to make false promises to investors about deals for baby formula, COVID medical supplies and first-aid kits that he claimed were going to war zones in Ukraine. According to the prosecutors, it seems Weinstein, quote, picked up right where he left off.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight. We'll see you tomorrow night. CNN PRIMETIME with Laura Coates starts right now. Hi, Laura.
LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Hey, Kaitlan. I've got one of your blazers on. You don't have a bright color on today. What's going on?
COLLINS: I love it. No, I'm letting you take that mantle tonight. I'll be back tomorrow with a bright blazer, okay?
COATES: All right. Thank you. I'll hold you today. Thank you so much.
Everyone, I'm Laura Coates and we have a jam-packed show for you tonight. Look, the deadline is coming, the one for Donald Trump to respond to the DOJ's target letter just a short time from now. We're all waiting to see if he, in fact, will respond today, according to that deadline.
We're also learning one of his advisers abruptly left grand jury testimony today when he was asked about their interactions while Trump was still in office. All that is ahead.
But, first, the politics and normalization of misinformation, that's a mouthful, it was also on full display in Congress as Republicans gave a platform to a noted conspiracy theorist, as he's being called now, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He's also a Democratic presidential hopeful and candidate. He testified during a hearing that was focused on the federal government and censorship. But then after going under oath, well, the train, it fell off the tracks promptly.
CNN's fact-checker, Senior Reporter Daniel Dale is here. Daniel, Kennedy said today that he has never voiced opposition over using vaccines. Listen to this moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have never been anti-vax. I have never told the public to avoid vaccination.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: And yet, that seems to obviously not be true, Daniel.
DANIEL DALE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Both the general claim and the specific claim there are totally untrue. He said he's never been anti- vax. We know Mr. Kennedy is one of America's most prominent anti- vaxxers with the years of anti-vax commentary. I'll get into that in a moment. He also said he's never told the public to avoid vaccination.
As an NBC News reporter, Brandy Zadrozny, first noted on Twitter, Kennedy publicly said less than two years ago that he had personally confronted strangers, just random people he encountered, and told them not to get their babies vaccinated. Listen to what Kennedy said on a 2021 podcast.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNEDY: Our job is to resist and talk to everybody. If you're walking down the street, and I do this now myself, I see somebody on a hiking trail carrying, say, a little baby and I say to them, do not get them vaccinated. And you hear that from me. If he hears it from ten other people, maybe he won't do it. Maybe he will save that child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DALE: Of course, there is a whole lot more. For years, Kennedy has been the country's most famous promoter of the debunked notion that there was a link between childhood vaccines and autism. He has spread all manner of misinfo about COVID-19 vaccines. He even asserted in recent comments, Laura, that the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic was not actually a flu but was caused by vaccine research. Of course, it wasn't. It was a flu.
So, look, this is a very vehement, very prominent famous anti-vaxxer under oath trying to convince people that he's not an anti-vaxxer.
COATES: I mean, the information was readily available, Daniel. It just blows the mind to figure out how he didn't think that would be followed up on. But also just before that exchange that we just saw, RFK Jr. said that he, quote, and I'm quoting here, has never uttered a phrase that was either racist or anti-Semitic, unquote. What are you finding? Is that true and does it hold up?
DALE: Well, I don't think it is up to me as a fact-checker to decide what is racist or anti-Semitic, but I can say that Kennedy has made comments that Jewish groups and Asian groups have described as hateful. He recently claimed baselessly that COVID-19 is targeted to attack Caucasians and black people. That's a direct quote. He continued that people who are most immune are Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese.
The CEO of the American Jewish Community responded to that. He said, every aspect of his comments reflect some of the most abhorrent, anti- Semitic conspiracy theories throughout history and contributes to today's dangerous rise of anti-Semitism. Groups fighting anti-Asian hate described this nonsense as hateful and offensive.
And this, Laura, was not his first remark to be forcefully denounced by Jewish groups. Last year, Kennedy made a truly ludicrous comparison to the Holocaust while making some bizarre comments about what he claims were a risk to Americans and everything, from vaccine passports to 5G, to low orbit satellites. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNEDY: Even in Hitler Germany, you could cross the alps into Switzerland.
[22:05:02]
You could hide in an attic, like Anne Frank did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DALE: Anne Frank was killed, of course. She was one of 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis.
Kennedy was denounced by both the Auschwitz Museum and the U.S. Holocaust Museum for those comments. He apologized for them later that week. But today, he seemed to deny under oath that he had made the comments at all. So, I don't know what to tell you.
COATES: Daniel Dale, thank you for the fact-checking, so illuminating.
Well, joining me now is Daily Beast Columnist Matt Lewis, who is also author of the brand new book, it is called, Filthy Rich Politicians. Also here, CNN Political Commentator Karen Finney, CNN Opinion Contributor Sophia Nelson, who is a former House Republican Investigative Committee Council, and Donell Harvin, a former chief of homeland security and intelligence for the government in Washington, D.C.
Well, all your reputations precede you. I love that you're all here today. Listen, the fact that he was there at all has made many Democrats say, what are Republicans thinking? They tried to go into executive session. They didn't want him to come in the first place because of these facts, yet he's polling still very high. Not close, close to Biden but as a Democratic hopeful, it's there.
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, those numbers have been relatively consistent and I do think a lot of that is his name, and he knows it. I mean, if he wasn't a Kennedy, he wouldn't have even been invited to come to the hearing today. So, let's be very clear about that. I do want to just say, I'm going to say it to take a step back, that, you know, COVID should never have been politicized ever, ever, ever, period, full stop, but that's the environment that we live in, right?
COATES: And we're still in.
FINNEY: And we're still in. People are still dying from COVID. I think it is important that we remember that.
And part of what is so outrageous about the comments that he made, they're just dangerous. And so for the Republicans to provide a platform for someone to be able to promote conspiracy, he lied, essentially, under oath, by saying he never said it. I consider it a lie, I should say it that way. Given that we have the proof he has said it.
But the Republicans knew exactly what was going to happen. Then they knew that's how he would use this platform. And, frankly, there was a little conspiracy between them, because RFK Jr. knew exactly what the game was.
COATES: Well, remember, this was a hearing, though, that was supposed to be about censorship, and that was what they said he was there for. And the idea that he was -- it started out, I think, Jim Jordan with a request to have the administration tweet taken down about his thoughts surrounding this very issue. He was kind of saying, look, if you censor me now, you're proving the point. Did they?
MATT LEWIS, COLUMNIST, THE DAILY BEAST: Well, I do think -- stepping back even further, I do think that there is a larger debate that is important. Now, I think Republicans are obviously playing politics. They're trying to score cheap points.
But I think there's a deep, deep debate and attention between misinformation and censorship. And think of it this way. On one hand, misinformation can be incredibly dangerous. People can die because of it if they don't get vaccinated. And it's so much easier to spread misinformation now because of social media, that there are no get a keepers.
On the other hand, we should have a society and a media that's welcoming of diverse and contrarian opinions. So, for example, the lab leak, which we don't know if the lab leak was trust, it's unclear. But Tom Cotton, a Republican senator, was accused of basically being a conspiracy theorist when he posed that theory.
So, I think that there's attention here that we're going to have to grapple with probably for decades because we're in a brave new world.
COATES: How?
DONELL HARVIN, FORMER CHIEF OF HOMELAND SECURITY AND INTEL FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF D.C.: I think, though, I want to pick up on what Daniel had said, I was actually at Auschwitz two weeks ago. These words aren't innocuous, okay? It is anti-Semitic. And when you blame or not blame some people for getting COVID or not getting COVID, it may not mean anything to RFK Jr.
But there are people who are very sick and very demented online that pick up on these things. And at a time, from a homeland security standpoint, when we have the highest rate of anti-Asian crime, crime against those of the Jewish faith, those words mean something to some people.
And so I know there's tension taken with what you can say, the First Amendment, which you can say, but these are hateful words, and to give him a platform like that I think is kind of blur (ph).
SOPHIA NELSON, CNN OPINION CONTRIBUTOR: I think everything everybody said is true. However, there's politics here, basically. The Republicans are weaponizing RFK Jr. against President Biden. Why? Because if you look at the poll numbers, we know that this House of Representatives run by Kevin McCarthy, these Republicans are very beholden to Donald Trump. They're in his camp. There can be no question.
If they can weaken Joseph Biden just a little bit by using RFK Jr., that amazing name, that name that carries a lot of weight with a lot of people, particularly over 60 years of age, right, no matter how wacky he may be or he may appear.
[22:10:09]
So, I think it is really about raw politics. Can we weaken Biden? Biden is still up in all the polls.
COATES: By the way, he invoked his uncle, of course, the late president, and also his father, knowing that and talked about the idea of, listen, you're calling me, these conspiracy theorists, I'm paraphrasing him, you're telling me I'm not a true Democrat either. And I'm adhering to things that I believe in. But that's part of the -- you call it kind of the stunt, that do you even doubt that he truly is running truly on a Democratic ticket or is he a kind of red herring?
FINNEY: Well, I think just to pick up on what Sophia said, I mean, the Republicans were using him to legitimize a process that has been pretty flawed, I think it is fair to say.
COATES: Which process do you mean?
FINNEY: I'm sorry, this weaponization committee that has been kind of a joke the whole time. At the same time, he was using them, too. He knew exactly what that platform would afford him. And he knows that in terms of this issue about trying the weaken President Biden, he's participating in that.
I think I suspect he believes that he is a Democrat. I think it is very telling that his whole family or most of his family has actually denounced what he's been saying --
COATES: His wife, right? She distanced herself in some areas, right? FINNEY: He's saying, but others in the Kennedy family and part of that legacy have really have taken great pains to distance themselves. So, I think that should say something to us.
But, look, as you and I have discussed, I think as Democrats, we have to take it seriously, because he certainly could create chaos in the Democratic primary. So, we take it seriously. At the same time, I think in a real matchup, I don't think he would win more than a few percentage points once people are clear about what he's actually doing.
LEWIS: I do wonder about the trend. I mean, Donald Trump was the first mover advantage in the republic. He shows up being this very different kind of politician and basically, I think, hijacks the Republican Party. And now -- but the Democrats, though, they really have their leaders, like Nancy Pelosi has the House in line and they nominate Joe Biden, this sort of mainstream kind of centrist Democrat. And now we're seeing, maybe it is a lagging indicator. It's not just Robert Kennedy Jr. but there are other potential Democrats who are now running.
COATES: An indicator of what, that this is not the matchup people want to see?
LEWIS: No. Well, that, I think that is true. But I'm saying is that we have now opened this can of worms where kind of contrarian eccentric candidates are running, and it was Donald Trump first in the Republican Party and now we're satisfying it in the Democratic Party. I don't know if it is going to get traction against Joe Biden but it seems to be a trend.
NELSON: That's the point I was going to make before you made it plug for your back, politicians who get rich or rich politicians. The bottom line is this is a really good way for RFK Jr. to not just wreak havoc but to really make a whole lot. Not that he might need a lot more money but the bottom line this pays. Misinformation and disinformation, it pays. It makes you famous all over the globe. It is a stunning place that we're in right now and it's not good.
HARVIN: Yes. And he's tapping into something that a trend that we've seen over the last decade, and that's really the degradation of truth, right? And when the normal man and woman doesn't know up and down, if you believe in disinformation, if you believe in conspiracy theories, you're not listening to this conversation. You're getting your news from the darkest, deepest parts of the web or other outlets that are feeding you exactly what you want to hear that's not fact-checked.
NELSON: Yes. Because we're the swamp, according to them.
COATES: Who wouldn't want to watch Laura Coates?
HARVIN: I mean, you're telling the truth and yet they don't know want to strive for the truth.
COATES: They don't want to hear that. It's 10:00 on CNN, everyone. Everyone, stay with me right here. We are less than two hours away from the deadline for Donald Trump to respond to Jack Smith's letter. Will he? And we're learning one of his advisers left the grand jury room abruptly today. I'm going to tell you about why.
Plus a new theory on how the Gilgo Beach serial killer suspect lured his victims.
And we're now learning what was taken in the search tied to Tupac Shakur's murder and whose home was actually searched. There are details next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
COATES: All right. Everyone, just about 90 minutes from now, the deadline is up for Donald Trump's legal counsel to respond to Jack Smith's target letter, the one where he asks them, well, do you plan on coming in to testify for a grand jury investigation? That's not actually how he phrased it. But, spoiler alert, I wouldn't hold my breath too long. It's unlikely that he will choose to appear before a grand jury. But stranger things have indeed happened.
But tonight, we're learning that one of his advisers appeared before the grand jury today. And when that adviser was asked about his interactions with Trump while Trump was still in office, he left to seek counsel from his lawyer.
We're back at the table right now. First of all, the clock is ticking. We know that he's been asked in this letter, the target letter, an invitation to appear before a grand jury. You're not required to give out a letter, but they have. They've put the country on notice and he, of course, has said everything. Do you think that there's any world where Donald Trump says, al; right, put me in, coach, I'll testify?
NELSON: No.
COATES: There you go. That's the end of the segment today. We've had everything covered. She said no, people.
NELSON: What he will do is he will put it out there. He will put whatever testimony we don't want to hear out on True Social media and he will fundraise off of it and he will make a lot of money off of it.
COATES: I didn't mean to cut you off, sorry. The fundraising you mentioned is so important, Sophia, because, first of all, right now, as long as Jack Smith is not saying anything, Trump can milk it. He can tell a story. He can say he can elongate this whole process. I mean, look at these numbers. The bumps that he gets, the spikes he gets from being charged, from being arraigned. This is on no one's bingo card until the last several years, Matt.
But the fact of the matter is there is now an even more of a focus on fundraising and what it means for the people who are voting. They're not fickle in the same respect. Maybe they are looking at very different things and they're focusing on him being a kind of champion for those who support him.
[22:20:06]
LEWIS: Definitely. Look, I think that we're talking about it in the last segment. I mean, I think a lot of the things that happen in politics follow the money, you know, whether it's people saying irresponsible things, follow the money. And then, of course, the politicians, because to my book, Filthy Rich Politicians, will find a way to take some of that money and put it in their personal pocket as well.
That's the other side of it, right? It's like money helps you win elections and take power. But more and more, you know, first of all, it's rich people who are running for office. I think the average member of Congress is like 12 times richer than the average American household. But then once people get elected, whether it's insider trading, opening a hotel in Washington, D.C. --
COATES: As an example.
LEWIS: -- having a son in law who takes $2 billion investment from his Saudi fund, they find a way to funnel some of that money back into their pockets. So, it's just a very dirty swampy, their say, existence.
COATES: You know, it also incentivizes people to stay, right? They would draw you there and why you want to stay. And maybe the moral compass starts to go a different direction when it points towards your account.
But you have been sounding the alarms now for a long time, even about January 6th, obviously. You were talking about this. You were warning people. What does it say to you that the fundraising is there, that this could happen and being charged even, or even the prospect of being charged and it makes the money go up?
HARVIN: Well, he told us this, right? Circa 2016, he can shoot someone in the middle of Manhattan and his supporters would still love him. We should believe him at this point, right? There's a segment of the population that Donald Trump could do no wrong for. And those are the individuals that support him, that stand by him, that will help fundraise for him.
And I'm not a political guru, obviously. I'm a homeland security person. But there's obviously a portion of those individuals that are radicalized. And they're not going to be de-radicalized. They're not going to be de-radicalized by going to jail for January 6th. We saw one of them who was prosecuted for going to January 6th and fighting, circling Obama's house a couple of weeks ago. So, these folks are at it. They're not going to give up. And he knows this. He knows his crowd.
COATES: Well, you know, I might change your kind of to say guru, if that makes you feel better about the issues. But, you know, we often hear President Biden say the comment, judge me against the alternative, right? That's his commentary. But then there was a moment today where Lisa Murkowski was asked about the prospects of a rematch between Biden and Trump, even in spite of all of these conversations. Listen to what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Would you support him if he decided to run?
SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AL): I tell you, if it is, if it's a matchup between Biden and Trump, I know exactly where I'd go. I would go with Joe Manchin. I am one who doesn't like to use my vote for the lesser of evils. I want to be proactive in who I think could do the job. I think Manchin could do the job. But will our system allow for that? That I don't know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: All right. Who's surprised?
FINNEY: So, Joe Manchin is actually not running. We should just say that. He happens to be a senator from the great state of West Virginia. Let's just toss that. That answer, talking about politics, that was such a political answer.
And it ties into what we were talking about on the fundraising and the Trump side. That radicalized base that you're talking about, they have a stranglehold on the Republican Party, that no one in the Republican Party has had the courage to stand up to with any force.
That answer from Lisa Murkowski was a political calculation. You can almost see it in her head of I don't want to say anything bad about Trump because I need those Trumpy voters to get re-elected. And I don't want to say Joe Biden, so I'll just split the baby and say somebody who's not actually even running and who would potentially be running on a third-party ticket that we don't even know what they stand for.
COATES: Well, he was in New Hampshire at the No Labels Foundation. And, I mean, Chris Christie, Mitt Romney, just a name two, who have been vocal about their disdain for the policies --
NELSON: Yes, but they don't count.
COATES: Why don't they count?
NELSON: Because they're considered RINOs. Nobody cares what they think, right? But Lisa Murkowski, in fairness, she's an independent, right? Remember, Lisa Murkowski had to do the write-in and do all this stuff. So, she's definitely a renegade Susan Collins sometimes.
But the part of the conversation you guys didn't hear that we didn't play was where she talked about the Republicans in the caucus who were very turned off and are saying sidebar, they have no courage to say it publicly, but they're saying, I don't know how much longer I can be in this party. I think it's radicalized. I think it's gone in a direction I'm no longer comfortable with. So, it's going to be interesting to see, to mention Joe Manchin, which -- anyway.
COATES: But where do they go next? I mean, is that the thought independent runs or just (INAUDIBLE) swallow hard?
[22:25:05]
NELSON: Listen, it is very difficult for an independent to win, as we know, in our system, the way it is now. A lot of people are trying to forward party, I said on the board, United America. There's a lot of movements, but none of them have really caught on. Ranked choice voting is something we think may help in the process. But right now, it's really hard for a third-party candidate to get above, what, Ross Perot got what, 19 percent back in --
LEWIS: Yes, after dropping out and getting back in the rest.
NELSON: Right. That's the best we've seen since Teddy Roosevelt.
FINNEY: Well, I would also -- let's not forget Jill Stein and Gary Johnson, who give us three states and that's part of how Hillary Clinton lost. And let's talk about Ralph Nader in 2000. Thank you. Al Gore loses Florida and we know the rest.
So, third-party candidates can absolutely be spoilers. But I think part of the question here is why won't Republican leaders stand up? I mean --
NELSON: I don't know.
COATES: -- literally the reason that children, middle school children in the state of Florida are going to be taught that black people that -- actually there were some personal benefits to slavery for black people because of this very radicalized faction of the Republican Party that you have Ron DeSantis trying to play to with his agenda as governor.
COATES: We're going to go there next, in fact, what's going on in Florida at that point. But just to bring it back to your book, which is incredible, Filthy Rich Politicians, (INAUDIBLE), there's no money and all of a sudden becoming independent, I would suspect.
LEWIS: And becoming -- as a Republican, yes, that's totally right. I mean, you know, everyone kind of can tell it's a free market. Everyone takes their business to the popular restaurant or whatever. That's what it is. It's very clear if you want to get ahead in the Republican Party, the way you play the game. The Democratic Party has a game, too, but I would say right now, it's not as toxic.
COATES: Well, we'll talk more about this, everyone. Matt Lewis, Karen Finney, Sophia Nelson, Donell Harvin, thank you all.
There's also now a chilling development tonight in the Gilgo Beach serial killings involving where the suspect likely committed these heinous acts. Plus, it's now clear whose house was searched in the cold case of Tupac Shakur's murder and what was found, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00]
COATES: Well, there is a disturbing development tonight in the Gilgo Beach murders. A source telling CNN that investigators are operating on a theory that the suspected serial killer murdered the women inside of his own home. We're told the disappearance has happened during times when his wife and his family were out of town. It suggests that he may have lured victims to his home for dates of some kind with these very women. That would have given Rex Heuermann control of his environment, access to the crime scene materials.
CNN's Brynn Gingras has been all over this story. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ERROL D. TOULON JR., SUFFOLK COUNTY SHERIFF: He's laying on his bunk. He's been extremely quiet, not really talkative to staff.
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Accused serial killer Rex Heuermann, alone and under suicide watch behind bars, as the investigation into his alleged killings expands.
ANTHONY CARTER, SUFFOLK COUNTY DEPUTY POLICE COMMISSIONER: I think in the coming days, as we continue to gather evidence, anything's possible.
GINGRAS (voice-over): His wife of more than 27 years now filing for divorce. In a statement, her attorney said, the sensitive nature of her husband's arrest is taking an emotional toll on the immediate and extended family.
RODNEY HARRISON, SUFFOLK COUNTY POLICE COMMISSIONER: If you ask me, I don't believe that they knew about this double life that Mr. Heuermann was living.
GINGRAS (voice-over): A week after his arrest, the investigation spans three states. Authorities are searching not only his Long Island home, but also his office and nearby storage facilities to Las Vegas condos he purchased and in South Carolina where he owns land.
Sources tell CNN there agents towed Heuermann's truck, which they say connects him to one of three murders he's. charged with committing more than a decade ago. Authorities are combing through evidence.
HARRISON: So we're looking for potential trophies, souvenirs, jewelry, anything that could be attached to the four women or other women that he might have been involved with.
GINGRAS (voice-over): Several departments are also reviewing cold cases to see if Heuermann is connected. This as more women are coming forward saying they too were solicited by him. NIKKI BRASS, FORMER SEX WORKER: I had a really, really bad feeling. My
gut was telling me I needed to get away from him.
GINGRAS (voice-over): Heuermann's phone logs and his DNA, police say, are smoking guns in a case that ran cold for years. Court paperwork describes how he used burner phones to taunt victims' families and researched this case as recently as last month.
HARRISON: It tells me that he was concerned, trying to take a look at, you know, where do we stand as an investigative team? Do we have someone that we may be possibly looking at? I'm sure that would have probably scared him.
GINGRAS (voice-over): The 59-year-old New York City architect has pleaded not guilty, but a friend of one of the victims believes police got it right.
UNKNOWN: It just makes me mad because he's such a big monster.
GINGRAS (on-camera): And authorities say after Heuermann's arrest, all he did was asked for an attorney. He was very quiet the ride with authorities from Manhattan to the jail where he was taken, which is about an hour and a half. He's been very quiet in his cell as well, not accepting any visitors at all. That's very stark difference from what his attorney said happened after he was presented with the charges in the case where he said he was distraught.
Brynn Gingras, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COATES: It's unbelievable to think about that case and how it's now been reopened officially. The question as well is, are we now closer to finding out who killed Tupac Shakur?
There are new details tonight on the search warrant executed this week at a home in Nevada, of all places. Property records show the house belongs to the wife of Dwayne Keith Davis, also known as Keefe D. He's a self-proclaimed witness to the shooting. Now, we're told items that were seized include a copy of his memoir about gang life.
I want to bring in CNN anchor Sarah Sidner. Sarah, it's so good to see you tonight. Las Vegas police searched a home in Henderson, Nevada this very week. What have they found?
[22:35:03]
SARAH SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: This is the search warrant. I printed it out so you can just see what it looks like. And there are quite a few pages. And what it details is a lot of electronics, computers, hard drives that have been taken from that home, as well as a couple of other things that sort of pique your interest.
One of them is a "Vibe" magazine that has Tupac on the cover. There were quite a few of those, by the way. There was also a copy of a book called "Compton Street Legends" and a few other things like black tubes containing photographs and a documentary. So it's interesting to sort of look through what is in here, but the thing that I think stood out the most is there's a name in this and many of these items belonging to him, according to police, and the name is Dwayne Keith Davis, or Keefe D, as you said there.
He has previously said in the time when all this happened back in September of 1996, that he witnessed the Tupac's murderer, and he is the uncle of Orlando Anderson, who was initially a main suspect in the case, but who said he did not do it, and he was never charged. So it's really interesting to know that initially, he said that he witnessed this, but all these years later, 27 years later, since the murder of Tupac, there is still no suspect that has been named, but now we're seeing the police have certainly not closed this case, Laura.
COATES: I mean, I -- I can't believe it's been 27 years, first of all, thinking about when he was killed and a few months later, of course, be it smalls and being the timing of all of this and all of the conspiracies that have circulated, all of the interest in this so far. I want to actually go back to around that time, back in 1998, a couple years after he was killed. There was an interview from BET with this man, Dwayne Keith Davis, known as Keefe D. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DWAYNE KEITH DAVIS, WITNESS: When we pulled up, I was in the front seat. Happen to see my friend, Suge.
UNKNOWN: Suge looks over you, he sees you?
DAVIS: Yeah.
UNKNOWN: He looks right at you?
DAVIS: Yeah, he looked at me.
UNKNOWN: You said the shots came from the back. Big Dre, Orlando. Who shot? Tupac.
DAVIS: Going to keep it from the code of the streets. It just came from the backseat, bro.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: I mean, what can you tell us about this guy, Dwayne Davis, and what he knows, just watching that?
SIDNER: I mean, he says he witnessed it. He clearly was not going to name someone if he did see that person. But he is also the uncle of the person who was the main suspect for a while, who was never charged and has not admitted to doing this in any way, shape or form.
We do also know that on that day, three hours before Tupac Shakur was murdered, he was in a fight inside the MGM Grand. And there is videotape of that fight. And the person he is fighting with and ends up sort of there he's on the ground he's kicking him is Orlando which is the nephew of Keefe D. So there's a lot of connections here and police have clearly not stopped their search for Tupac's murder.
COATES: Decades later. Sarah Seidner, thank you so much. And please be sure to watch Sarah Sidner in the next hour. She's up next. And she has an interview actually with Tupac's brother, Mopreme Shakur. That's gonna be live, everyone, at 11.30 p.m. tonight. So stay tuned for Sarah Sidner and that particular interview as well.
Everyone, schools in Florida, you heard a little bit earlier in the show, they wanna teach kids that slavery had some personal benefits. I'll speak with a teacher there next.
Plus, on the eve of the Barbie Oppenheimer, they're calling it the Barbie-heimer Showdown at the movies, hear Matt Damon's answer to this question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WALLACE, HOST, WHO'S TALKING: Was the U.S. right or wrong to drop the bomb on Hiroshima?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAMEROTA: Well, Florida public schools now have a new set of standards when it comes to teaching black history. The state board of education unanimously approving the controversial new curriculum. That, by the way, includes now a lesson which teaches that slavery could have offered, and I'm quoting here, "a personal benefit," unquote. We're talking about a benefit to the enslaved people.
Critics are now slamming the new standards as a big step backward. I want to bring in Carol Cleaver, a middle school teacher in Florida who has a master's degree in African American studies. Carol, thank you for being with us tonight.
This is, for many people, unbelievable to think that there would be now a part of instruction that those who've been enslaved personally benefited from it. What is this about? Is that really what's being taught or will be taught?
CAROL CLEAVER, FLORIDA TEACHER, FERRY PASS MIDDLE SCHOOL: Well, it's been a strand that was added onto our current standards that was adopted yesterday by the State Board of Education. And so I assume that, yes, that is what they would like us to teach.
My problem with it, of course, is that skills are not inherently learned during slavery. Slavery is not to be credited for their skills, of course. But it seems like that's what we're expected to impart to the children.
COATES: So just so we're clear, when you're talking about the personal benefit, it's supposed to instruct, and this is part of it, the new standards that include, and this is a document from the Florida Department of Education website, and it says that instruction includes how slaves developed skills which in some instances could be applied for their personal benefit.
[22:45:12]
How do you expect to be able to teach this, A, with a straight face, and looking at students who are expected to believe this, and respect you in the end?
CLEAVER: Right. Well, I'm going to be honest and say I just don't think that we will be able to teach that. It just isn't true. The truth is really that enslaved people had their labor exploited and they were being held captive. There was nothing that was benefiting them from their labor. They, all people, of course, amass a set of skills during their lifetime to suggest that these skills are specially developed because they were enslaved is particularly insulting, especially to the African-American kids that I have in my class right now.
COATES: And to anyone, frankly, who would want to be a student of actual history, but I wonder --
CLEAVER: Right.
COATES: -- if you refuse to teach it, will you be punished? Do you know what the consequence might be, had they laid that out?
CLEAVER: Well, that's the particularly nefarious thing here. It hasn't been laid specifically out. We've been told that our licenses could be threatened if we don't follow the exact letter of the standards, if we're caught teaching things that are not explicitly stated, if we have, of course, books on our shelves that anyone disagrees with us having on the shelves.
So right now, there is certainly a culture of fear in Florida classrooms where teachers are afraid that if they step out of line just a little bit, not just teachers but administrators too, if they step out of line just a little bit that the consequences could be losing your professional license.
And so it's going to be a very difficult year. It's confusing to know exactly how to move forward.
COATES: I mean this all comes from this mind boggling concept to me, that you're not supposed to teach history if it could make somebody feel badly about what has happened. I mean, the idea that that's just a mind-boggling concept to me that doesn't seem to be in line with reality of how you teach any subject that is difficult and requires you to be a part of a global world at some point.
Carol Cleaver, thank you so much for being here. And I don't know if I should wish you luck or courage or frankly, just the ability that maybe saner minds will prevail and what and how we teach? CLEAVER: Yeah, I'm just going to keep teaching with fidelity. I'm
going to keep teaching the truth to these children and respecting them the best I can.
COATES: How radical in 2023. Carol, thank you so much for being here.
CLEAVER: Absolutely. Thank you.
COATES: Well, now for a question that really looks at history and what would you do? The question is, was the United States right or wrong to have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima? Chris Wallace asked that question of Matt Damon. You'll see how he answered as the Oppenheimer movie puts nukes in a whole new spotlight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: As Russia's war carries on and the world seems to become more unstable and more unpredictable, the topic of nuclear weapons is once again creeping back into the conversations. And Hollywood is adding fuel to those fears with this week's release of "Oppenheimer" about the American scientist behind the atomic bomb.
Chris Wallace is back with me now. Chris, you spoke with one of the film's stars, Matt Damon. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Your latest movie is just out, "Oppenheimer," about the scientist who led the effort to create the first atomic bomb you play, General Leslie Groves, who is the military leader of the Manhattan Project. Why did you want to play this role?
MATT DAMON, ACTOR: The director, Chris Nolan, is one of the best directors to ever live, and he makes extraordinary movies. It plays like a thriller, like you're on the edge of your seat the entire time.
WALLACE: Anyone who deals with this subject, and I wrote a book, now in this movie, I think ends up having to deal with the central question. Was the U.S. right or wrong to drop the bomb on Hiroshima? Where do you come down on that?
DAMON: That's such an impossible question. I remember talking to Ben Affleck's grandfather, who was a Marine, and he said, I -- When we heard about the bomb dropped, we cheered. And he said, I, you know, this is 50 years later, he's telling me this. And he goes, I, you know, live with the fact that I do. But this is what they were telling us. We, you know, that they were going to fight to the last man and that we were gonna, you know -- You cover it in your book. They said between 250,000 and a million Americans.
WALLACE: Man, you read my book.
DAMON: I did read it. It was fantastic.
WALLACE: Which we should say is called "Countdown 1945," and it's available on Amazon if you'd like to buy it.
DAMON: It actually is, not to be shamelessly pumping your book, but it really is great.
WALLACE: So what would you have done?
DAMON: Boy, I probably would have had a head of gray hair, but you know what I mean? It's like those presidents just go, their hair goes white, like, you know.
[22:55:01]
It's funny because when you look at it, You think there's really only one choice to make, and yet you look at the people who made that choice. I mean, I don't think Groves, for instance, ever lost a night of sleep about it. He was, he fulfilled his mission. But Oppenheimer, and a lot of the other scientists, you know, once they went through the test, you know, they started going, oh my God. And they, and you know, it was like, shockwave going through them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: I mean, that is so fascinating to think about that. What a difficult question. And you can see the way that this movie might be bringing out the conundrum and grappling with that, but just thinking about the real world implications of when we look at what we have done as a human race in our military endeavors and beyond. The hindsight, unbelievable.
WALLACE: Yeah, look, one of the things that I think comes out in the real story, and I've also seen the movie "Oppenheimer," is the technology leads us. In the end, you know, we can't put the genie back in the bottle. And when it became possible in the run-up to and then during World War II to split the atom. It was going to happen. And there was an understanding that there was a super weapon. And originally, Roosevelt was doing it because there was a lot of talk that the Nazis were trying to create. And a lot of the top scientists were still in Germany were trying to create an atom bomb, a nuclear weapon.
And the U.S. certainly did not want Hitler and the Nazis to get to it before he did. But you then get to this deep political and moral question. On the one hand, you're going to drop the bomb on a city and tens of thousands of innocent civilians are going to be killed. On the other hand, if you don't drop the bomb, you're going to invade and probably more people are going to die and the war would have gone on for another year and a half. So it's one of the great political and moral conundrums of our time.
COATES: Chris Wallace, it is terrifying to think of how much this resonates today, but also I am fascinated that Matt Damon read your book. I love it, Chris Wallace. Thank you so much.
WALLACE: And there was a shameless plug there. I'm a little embarrassed about that.
COATES: No, that's what you should do, Chris Wallace. I love it all. Thank you so much. And you can see more of Chris' interview with Matt Damon this Friday on "Who's Talking to Chris Wallace?" He'll also talk to actress Laura Linney. That's this Friday at 10 p.m.
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: Well, there is a disturbing development tonight in the Gilgo Beach murders. A source telling CNN that investigators are operating on a theory that the suspected serial killer murdered the women inside of his own home. We're told the disappearance has happened during times when his wife and his family were out of town. It suggests that he may have lured victims to his home for dates of some kind with these very women. That would have given Rex Heuermann control of his environment, access to the crime scene materials.
CNN's Brynn Gingras has been all over this story. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ERROL D. TOULON JR., SUFFOLK COUNTY SHERIFF: He's laying on his bunk. He's been extremely quiet, not really talkative to staff.
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Accused serial killer Rex Heuermann, alone and under suicide watch behind bars, as the investigation into his alleged killings expands.
ANTHONY CARTER, SUFFOLK COUNTY DEPUTY POLICE COMMISSIONER: I think in the coming days, as we continue to gather evidence, anything's possible.
GINGRAS (voice-over): His wife of more than 27 years now filing for divorce. In a statement, her attorney said, the sensitive nature of her husband's arrest is taking an emotional toll on the immediate and extended family.
RODNEY HARRISON, SUFFOLK COUNTY POLICE COMMISSIONER: If you ask me, I don't believe that they knew about this double life that Mr. Heuermann was living.
GINGRAS (voice-over): A week after his arrest, the investigation spans three states. Authorities are searching not only his Long Island home, but also his office and nearby storage facilities to Las Vegas condos he purchased and in South Carolina where he owns land.
Sources tell CNN there agents towed Heuermann's truck, which they say connects him to one of three murders he's. charged with committing more than a decade ago. Authorities are combing through evidence.
HARRISON: So we're looking for potential trophies, souvenirs, jewelry, anything that could be attached to the four women or other women that he might have been involved with. GINGRAS (voice-over): Several departments are also reviewing cold
cases to see if Heuermann is connected. This as more women are coming forward saying they too were solicited by him.
NIKKI BRASS, FORMER SEX WORKER: I had a really, really bad feeling. My gut was telling me I needed to get away from him.
GINGRAS (voice-over): Heuermann's phone logs and his DNA, police say, are smoking guns in a case that ran cold for years. Court paperwork describes how he used burner phones to taunt victims' families and researched this case as recently as last month.
HARRISON: It tells me that he was concerned, trying to take a look at, you know, where do we stand as an investigative team? Do we have someone that we may be possibly looking at? I'm sure that would have probably scared him.
GINGRAS (voice-over): The 59-year-old New York City architect has pleaded not guilty, but a friend of one of the victims believes police got it right.
UNKNOWN: It just makes me mad because he's such a big monster.
GINGRAS (on-camera): And authorities say after Heuermann's arrest, all he did was asked for an attorney. He was very quiet the ride with authorities from Manhattan to the jail where he was taken, which is about an hour and a half. He's been very quiet in his cell as well, not accepting any visitors at all. That's very stark difference from what his attorney said happened after he was presented with the charges in the case where he said he was distraught.
Brynn Gingras, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COATES: It's unbelievable to think about that case and how it's now been reopened officially. The question as well is, are we now closer to finding out who killed Tupac Shakur?
There are new details tonight on the search warrant executed this week at a home in Nevada, of all places. Property records show the house belongs to the wife of Dwayne Keith Davis, also known as Keefe D. He's a self-proclaimed witness to the shooting. Now, we're told items that were seized include a copy of his memoir about gang life.
I want to bring in CNN anchor Sarah Sidner. Sarah, it's so good to see you tonight. Las Vegas police searched a home in Henderson, Nevada this very week. What have they found?
[22:35:03]
SARAH SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: This is the search warrant. I printed it out so you can just see what it looks like. And there are quite a few pages. And what it details is a lot of electronics, computers, hard drives that have been taken from that home, as well as a couple of other things that sort of pique your interest. One of them is a "Vibe" magazine that has Tupac on the cover. There
were quite a few of those, by the way. There was also a copy of a book called "Compton Street Legends" and a few other things like black tubes containing photographs and a documentary. So it's interesting to sort of look through what is in here, but the thing that I think stood out the most is there's a name in this and many of these items belonging to him, according to police, and the name is Dwayne Keith Davis, or Keefe D, as you said there.
He has previously said in the time when all this happened back in September of 1996, that he witnessed the Tupac's murderer, and he is the uncle of Orlando Anderson, who was initially a main suspect in the case, but who said he did not do it, and he was never charged. So it's really interesting to know that initially, he said that he witnessed this, but all these years later, 27 years later, since the murder of Tupac, there is still no suspect that has been named, but now we're seeing the police have certainly not closed this case, Laura.
COATES: I mean, I -- I can't believe it's been 27 years, first of all, thinking about when he was killed and a few months later, of course, be it smalls and being the timing of all of this and all of the conspiracies that have circulated, all of the interest in this so far. I want to actually go back to around that time, back in 1998, a couple years after he was killed. There was an interview from BET with this man, Dwayne Keith Davis, known as Keefe D. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DWAYNE KEITH DAVIS, WITNESS: When we pulled up, I was in the front seat. Happen to see my friend, Suge.
UNKNOWN: Suge looks over you, he sees you?
DAVIS: Yeah.
UNKNOWN: He looks right at you?
DAVIS: Yeah, he looked at me.
UNKNOWN: You said the shots came from the back. Big Dre, Orlando. Who shot? Tupac.
DAVIS: Going to keep it from the code of the streets. It just came from the backseat, bro.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: I mean, what can you tell us about this guy, Dwayne Davis, and what he knows, just watching that?
SIDNER: I mean, he says he witnessed it. He clearly was not going to name someone if he did see that person. But he is also the uncle of the person who was the main suspect for a while, who was never charged and has not admitted to doing this in any way, shape or form.
We do also know that on that day, three hours before Tupac Shakur was murdered, he was in a fight inside the MGM Grand. And there is videotape of that fight. And the person he is fighting with and ends up sort of there he's on the ground he's kicking him is Orlando which is the nephew of Keefe D. So there's a lot of connections here and police have clearly not stopped their search for Tupac's murder.
COATES: Decades later. Sarah Seidner, thank you so much. And please be sure to watch Sarah Sidner in the next hour. She's up next. And she has an interview actually with Tupac's brother, Mopreme Shakur. That's gonna be live, everyone, at 11.30 p.m. tonight. So stay tuned for Sarah Sidner and that particular interview as well.
Everyone, schools in Florida, you heard a little bit earlier in the show, they wanna teach kids that slavery had some personal benefits. I'll speak with a teacher there next.
Plus, on the eve of the Barbie Oppenheimer, they're calling it the Barbie-heimer Showdown at the movies, hear Matt Damon's answer to this question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WALLACE, HOST, WHO'S TALKING: Was the U.S. right or wrong to drop the bomb on Hiroshima?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAMEROTA: Well, Florida public schools now have a new set of standards when it comes to teaching black history. The state board of education unanimously approving the controversial new curriculum. That, by the way, includes now a lesson which teaches that slavery could have offered, and I'm quoting here, "a personal benefit," unquote. We're talking about a benefit to the enslaved people.
Critics are now slamming the new standards as a big step backward. I want to bring in Carol Cleaver, a middle school teacher in Florida who has a master's degree in African American studies. Carol, thank you for being with us tonight.
This is, for many people, unbelievable to think that there would be now a part of instruction that those who've been enslaved personally benefited from it. What is this about? Is that really what's being taught or will be taught?
CAROL CLEAVER, FLORIDA TEACHER, FERRY PASS MIDDLE SCHOOL: Well, it's been a strand that was added onto our current standards that was adopted yesterday by the State Board of Education. And so I assume that, yes, that is what they would like us to teach.
My problem with it, of course, is that skills are not inherently learned during slavery. Slavery is not to be credited for their skills, of course. But it seems like that's what we're expected to impart to the children.
COATES: So just so we're clear, when you're talking about the personal benefit, it's supposed to instruct, and this is part of it, the new standards that include, and this is a document from the Florida Department of Education website, and it says that instruction includes how slaves developed skills which in some instances could be applied for their personal benefit.
[22:45:12]
How do you expect to be able to teach this, A, with a straight face, and looking at students who are expected to believe this, and respect you in the end?
CLEAVER: Right. Well, I'm going to be honest and say I just don't think that we will be able to teach that. It just isn't true. The truth is really that enslaved people had their labor exploited and they were being held captive. There was nothing that was benefiting them from their labor. They, all people, of course, amass a set of skills during their lifetime to suggest that these skills are specially developed because they were enslaved is particularly insulting, especially to the African-American kids that I have in my class right now.
COATES: And to anyone, frankly, who would want to be a student of actual history, but I wonder --
CLEAVER: Right.
COATES: -- if you refuse to teach it, will you be punished? Do you know what the consequence might be, had they laid that out?
CLEAVER: Well, that's the particularly nefarious thing here. It hasn't been laid specifically out. We've been told that our licenses could be threatened if we don't follow the exact letter of the standards, if we're caught teaching things that are not explicitly stated, if we have, of course, books on our shelves that anyone disagrees with us having on the shelves.
So right now, there is certainly a culture of fear in Florida classrooms where teachers are afraid that if they step out of line just a little bit, not just teachers but administrators too, if they step out of line just a little bit that the consequences could be losing your professional license.
And so it's going to be a very difficult year. It's confusing to know exactly how to move forward.
COATES: I mean this all comes from this mind boggling concept to me, that you're not supposed to teach history if it could make somebody feel badly about what has happened. I mean, the idea that that's just a mind-boggling concept to me that doesn't seem to be in line with reality of how you teach any subject that is difficult and requires you to be a part of a global world at some point.
Carol Cleaver, thank you so much for being here. And I don't know if I should wish you luck or courage or frankly, just the ability that maybe saner minds will prevail and what and how we teach?
CLEAVER: Yeah, I'm just going to keep teaching with fidelity. I'm going to keep teaching the truth to these children and respecting them the best I can.
COATES: How radical in 2023. Carol, thank you so much for being here.
CLEAVER: Absolutely. Thank you.
COATES: Well, now for a question that really looks at history and what would you do? The question is, was the United States right or wrong to have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima? Chris Wallace asked that question of Matt Damon. You'll see how he answered as the Oppenheimer movie puts nukes in a whole new spotlight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: As Russia's war carries on and the world seems to become more unstable and more unpredictable, the topic of nuclear weapons is once again creeping back into the conversations. And Hollywood is adding fuel to those fears with this week's release of "Oppenheimer" about the American scientist behind the atomic bomb.
Chris Wallace is back with me now. Chris, you spoke with one of the film's stars, Matt Damon. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Your latest movie is just out, "Oppenheimer," about the scientist who led the effort to create the first atomic bomb you play, General Leslie Groves, who is the military leader of the Manhattan Project. Why did you want to play this role?
MATT DAMON, ACTOR: The director, Chris Nolan, is one of the best directors to ever live, and he makes extraordinary movies. It plays like a thriller, like you're on the edge of your seat the entire time.
WALLACE: Anyone who deals with this subject, and I wrote a book, now in this movie, I think ends up having to deal with the central question. Was the U.S. right or wrong to drop the bomb on Hiroshima? Where do you come down on that?
DAMON: That's such an impossible question. I remember talking to Ben Affleck's grandfather, who was a Marine, and he said, I -- When we heard about the bomb dropped, we cheered. And he said, I, you know, this is 50 years later, he's telling me this. And he goes, I, you know, live with the fact that I do. But this is what they were telling us. We, you know, that they were going to fight to the last man and that we were gonna, you know -- You cover it in your book. They said between 250,000 and a million Americans.
WALLACE: Man, you read my book. DAMON: I did read it. It was fantastic.
WALLACE: Which we should say is called "Countdown 1945," and it's available on Amazon if you'd like to buy it.
DAMON: It actually is, not to be shamelessly pumping your book, but it really is great.
WALLACE: So what would you have done?
DAMON: Boy, I probably would have had a head of gray hair, but you know what I mean? It's like those presidents just go, their hair goes white, like, you know.
[22:55:01]
It's funny because when you look at it, You think there's really only one choice to make, and yet you look at the people who made that choice. I mean, I don't think Groves, for instance, ever lost a night of sleep about it. He was, he fulfilled his mission. But Oppenheimer, and a lot of the other scientists, you know, once they went through the test, you know, they started going, oh my God. And they, and you know, it was like, shockwave going through them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: I mean, that is so fascinating to think about that. What a difficult question. And you can see the way that this movie might be bringing out the conundrum and grappling with that, but just thinking about the real world implications of when we look at what we have done as a human race in our military endeavors and beyond. The hindsight, unbelievable.
WALLACE: Yeah, look, one of the things that I think comes out in the real story, and I've also seen the movie "Oppenheimer," is the technology leads us. In the end, you know, we can't put the genie back in the bottle. And when it became possible in the run-up to and then during World War II to split the atom. It was going to happen. And there was an understanding that there was a super weapon. And originally, Roosevelt was doing it because there was a lot of talk that the Nazis were trying to create. And a lot of the top scientists were still in Germany were trying to create an atom bomb, a nuclear weapon.
And the U.S. certainly did not want Hitler and the Nazis to get to it before he did. But you then get to this deep political and moral question. On the one hand, you're going to drop the bomb on a city and tens of thousands of innocent civilians are going to be killed. On the other hand, if you don't drop the bomb, you're going to invade and probably more people are going to die and the war would have gone on for another year and a half. So it's one of the great political and moral conundrums of our time.
COATES: Chris Wallace, it is terrifying to think of how much this resonates today, but also I am fascinated that Matt Damon read your book. I love it, Chris Wallace. Thank you so much. WALLACE: And there was a shameless plug there. I'm a little
embarrassed about that.
COATES: No, that's what you should do, Chris Wallace. I love it all. Thank you so much. And you can see more of Chris' interview with Matt Damon this Friday on "Who's Talking to Chris Wallace?" He'll also talk to actress Laura Linney. That's this Friday at 10 p.m.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
