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House Devolves Into Angry Retribution After McCarthy Ouster; Speaker Fight Jeopardizes U.S. Aid To Ukraine; New York Attorney General Fires Back, the Donald Trump Show Is Over; Trump Admits To Putting Forward False Financial Statements; White House Dog "Commander" Gets Involved With More Biting Incidents; NFL Quarterback Aaron Rodgers Takes Pot Shots At A Fellow Player While He's Out With An Injury. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired October 04, 2023 - 22:00   ET



KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Hopefully, they will figure out that bed bugs problem. But don't worry, we won't get into it now, especially if you're watching this in bed right now. If you're interested, you can check out the Paris bed bug story at

And on that note, thank you so much for joining us. CNN Primetime with Abby Phillip starts right now.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: It's apparently the unforgivable sin in today's politics, working with the other side of the aisle. So, unforgivable, in fact, it may earn you the political death penalty. And as Republicans begin the autopsy on what happened to Kevin McCarthy, they are now doctoring some of the results.

Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip. And tonight, the fallout intensifies after the historic ouster of Kevin McCarthy as House speaker. There is a race underway to replace him but even more intense is the blame game. Some Republicans are pointing the finger at Matt Gaetz, others point to McCarthy and the deal that he himself cut to neuter his own power back in January. But, increasingly, we are hearing more of this, that Democrats are the one to blame for not saving McCarthy.

The Republican congressional committee said Democrats on the bipartisan Problem Solvers Caucus have the spine of a boiled noodle of spaghetti. McCarthy himself echoed that.


REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I think today was a political decision by the Democrats. And I think the things they have done in the past hurt the institution.

You can't do the job if eight people, you have 94 percent or 96 percent of your entire conference, but eight people can partner with the whole other side. How do you govern?

(END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIP: It's a really good question, but it is one that I think Kevin McCarthy should have been asking himself back in January, because it was McCarthy himself who agreed to those hardliner demands by Republicans to get the speakership, in the 15th round, I should add.

Now, it is also odd that he thinks that Democrats should be the one to throw him a lifeline when he green-lit the Biden impeachment inquiry. He gave the January 6th footage to Tucker Carlson, and when just days ago, he blamed Democrats for the almost shutdown.


MCCARTHY: The Democrats tried to do everything they can not to let it pass.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Democrats were the ones who voted for this --

MCCARTHY: Did you watch?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- and a larger number than Republicans to keep the continuing resolution alive.

MCCARTHY: Did you watch the floor yesterday?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, yes, 90 Republicans votes against it.


PHILLIP: As Margaret Brennan said, a quick fact-check, it was Republican who, even prior to that vote that weekend, failed to pass their own bills to fund the government.

But if you look at the recent history of Republican speakers, the cause of death becomes a little clearer. McCarthy ousted. Paul Ryan quit in disgust over his right flank. John Boehner pushed out by the Freedom Caucus. Dennis Hastert spent time in prison after admitting sexual abuse. And the hyper partisan Newt Gingrich, who faced ethical complaints resigned before his own caucus staged a rebellion.

So, perhaps the issue isn't actually Democrats, but the insatiable thirst for rebellion within the Republican conference.

Joining me now is Congressman Ted Lieu of California. He is the vice chair of the House Democratic Caucus. Congressman Lieu, thank you for joining us tonight.

REP. TED LIEU (D-CA): Thank you, Abby, honored to be on this show.

PHILLIP: Now, Speaker McCarthy and his allies have been saying that Democrats share blame for his downfall. What is your reaction to that?

LIEUE: Let me say, I've known Kevin McCarthy a long time, ever since we were both serving in the California State legislature. He was the son of a firefighter and he rose to occupy the highest legislative office in the land. I wish him well. Now, the notion that somehow Democrats were going to bail out the Republicans in this civil war makes no sense. If you remember in January, we voted 15 rounds and every Democrat voted for Hakeem Jeffries because we believe Hakeem Jeffries should be speaker and would be a better speaker, and our actions were consistent with having Hakeem Jeffries be speaker.

PHILLIP: Now, former Speaker Pelosi and Leader Hoyer were both kicked out of their Capitol offices, these hideaways that they have. It is a privilege that was given and reportedly taken away by Speaker McCarthy. What do you make of that move?

LIEU: So, House Republicans seem concerned with office space.


Democrats want to help pass laws to help an American family, and that's what we did when we were in control last term. We passed the Inflation Reduction Act to cap insulin at $35 a month and to lower the cost of other prescription drugs, and that's what the American people expect, a functioning government.

PHILLIP: We are also learning tonight that former Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney actually reached out to your colleague, Congressman Dan Goldman, ahead of the motion to vacate vote, to basically stress the danger that McCarthy poses to democracy because of his response to January 6th. Sources tell CNN that Goldman then shared this to the rest of the House Democratic caucus. What exactly did she say and what was the reaction in the room to that advice from Liz Cheney?

LIUE: I am not aware of what Liz Cheney said because I was not a witness to that conversation, but I want to explain what's happening right now. There is a civil war in the House Republican caucus between those who are extreme and those who are very extreme. There are very few moderates left in the caucus but enough that could abandon this MAGA extremism and join with Democrats on a bipartisan path forward, and Democrats stand ready and willing to govern. We just need a partner who is willing to govern.

PHILLIP: I have to ask you, though, what if the tables were turned in this scenario? I think this is what Republicans are raising. Let's hypothetically suppose that a Democratic speaker found themselves basically on the verge of losing their job because of a tiny minority within the Democratic Party who teamed up with Republicans to oust them. Does that scenario becoming more possible concern you?

LIEU: I think you can't look at this situation without looking at who the speaker actually was. Speaker McCarthy made a deal and then broke it a few weeks later. And this was not any deal. This was a deal with the president of the United States that was literally signed into law. And reneges on it and he brings our country to the brink of default and then he brings our country again to the brink of a government shutdown. If there was a speaker whose word could be trusted, I think you might have had a difficult result. PHILLIP: Speaking of the possibility of a different speaker, there is now an open race for that job in the Republican conference. And you famously clashed with one of the people who is up for it, Jim Jordan. What do you see when you imagine a world in which Jim Jordan is the speaker? Is he someone you think you could work with?

LIEU: Democrats, including me, I'm ready to work with any Republican speaker as long as they don't break their word, that they want to help the American people. We stand ready and willing to govern. We just need MAGA extremists to not control the place because we've had that for this entire year and it's been total chaos. We need people to abandon this extreme MAGA wing of the Republican Party and work with Democrats on a bipartisan path forward.

PHILLIP: Do you think you can work with Jim Jordan specifically?

LIEU: Yes, I can work with any speaker provided they tell the truth and want to work on a bipartisan path forward. I'm fine to work with pretty much any member.

PHILLIP: All right. Congressman Ted Lieu, thank you so much for joining us.

LIEU: Thank you.

PHILLIP: Now, let's continue this conversation with CNN Anchor and Host of CNN's Who's Talking to Chris Wallace, Chris Wallace is here.

So, Chris, Republicans now are blaming Democrats for the fact that McCarthy no longer has a job. Do you think that they share some blame here?

CHRIS WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: The Democrats? No. It's not their job to save the Republican speaker. I mean, can you imagine if Nancy Pelosi was in trouble back when she was speaker and they were counting on Republicans to bail her out?

PHILLIP: Yes, not in a million years.

WALLACE: Yes. There's plenty of legitimate bad blood between Republicans and Democrats. Remember, it was Kevin McCarthy who, right after January 6th, said that Donald Trump was responsible for what had happened on that terrible day, and then a couple of weeks later, he was down in Mar-a-Lago kissing the former president's ring. So, there was not a lot of love lost between the Democrats and Kevin McCarthy, and not to say that they were going to oust him but they certainly weren't going to save him.

PHILLIP: Yes. I think a Republican leader who authorized helping a Democratic leader in that same position probably would have lost their jobs as a result of doing that. But now that we don't know really who is going to come next after McCarthy, do you think that there's any world in which Democrats might come to regret not trying to encourage McCarthy to make a deal with them in order to save his speakership?

WALLACE: Well, he couldn't have, because had he made a deal with the Democrats, in other words, had he said, I'll give you these concessions, and we're going to try to rule as a bipartisan unity coalition, it might have worked for a little time, but it would have so cratered his base inside the GOP conference that you wouldn't have had eight Republicans calling for his ouster.


It would have been dozens calling for his ouster.

So, I mean, at that point, when there was -- you know, there was more than the delta between the majority and the number of Republicans who wanted him out, there was just no way he was going to save his speakership.

PHILLIP: Yes, I think you're right about that. So, now, we have two candidates who have officially announced that they are running for speaker. One of them is House Majority Leader Steve Scalise. The other is Congressman Jim Jordan, who heads up some of these Hunter Biden probes, is known as a flamethrower into the House. Kevin Hern, who is a congressman, is keeping his options open.

Where do you think that this lands? Who do you think has the momentum at their backs at this point?

WALLACE: Well, I think, first of all, it's going to be really hard to get to 218, because I would think between Scalise and Jordan, they're going to really split the conference. Remember, there are just a couple of more, what, four or five votes beyond that. So, if you get a sizeable number for both of them, no one is going to be anywhere near.

And that, of course, was one of the reasons that McCarthy was elected back last January in the first place, was because he was the only one out there who could get 218 votes. I mean, unless one of them gives way, I think it's going to be a long, difficult process and we may look back at last January when there were 15 rounds and say that was easy. That was a Tea Party compared to what we're going to face this time around.

I mean, on a logical basis, you would say Steve Scalise is the next in line, he's the majority leader, he has a lot of support within the conference. One of the problems I think that he faces is real questions about his health. Because of the fact he survived that shooting back if 2017, now he's fighting multiple myeloma. So, that would be one of the questions. Does he have the vigor to run the House and also to go out and raise a lot of money for 2024?

PHILLIP: Yes, it's a very important question and one that I know is being asked over on Capitol Hill as well as this process goes through. But you're also right, everybody needs to hold on because this could take some time even if it just gets started next week.

But, Chris, stand by. If Jim Jordan becomes speaker, U.S. aid to Ukraine could be in serious jeopardy. What that would mean for the ongoing war.

Plus, see what happened when Chris confronts Oliver Stone about his interviews with Vladimir Putin.

And the war of words is getting fiery as the New York attorney general fires back at Donald Trump during a fraud trial.




MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What about Ukraine? Are you willing to move forward with an aid package to Ukraine if you're speaker?

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I'm against that. What I understand is, at some point, we're going to have to deal with this appropriation process in the right way and we're going to try to do that in the next 41 days. The most pressing issue on Americans' minds is not Ukraine. It is the border situation and it is crime on the street.


PHILLIP: That there was House Speaker Candidate Jim Jordan making clear that he is not in favor of new aid for Ukraine. And that casts a dark cloud over the fate of Ukraine as the funds quickly dry up. So, the question now is, will this all play into Vladimir Putin's hands?

Well, Chris Wallace is back with me now. So, Chris, U.S. aid now, I think more than perhaps at any point since this war has begun, seems to really be on the line. And it certainly seems to hinge in part on who takes over as speaker of the House. What do you think this all means for the trajectory of this war going forward?

WALLACE: Oh, it couldn't be more serious. You know, there's a few billion dollars in the pipeline still that the pentagon has from prior appropriations. So, Ukraine is not out of money in terms of U.S. military aid yet. But one of the top White House officials the other day said it could be a few more weeks, it could be a few more months. Clearly, by the end of the year, which is not far from now, if there is not a new injection of funds by Congress, Ukraine is going to lose its support, not obviously from Europe but from the U.S. And that would very much jeopardize the situation.

What is most distressing about all this, Abby, is the fact that Vladimir Putin, and it's been clear from people inside the Kremlin, has been counting on the idea that he can outlast the west and particularly that he can outlast the United States, that we will tire of supporting the war in Ukraine, that there will be divisions in this country and that, therefore, that he'll be able to eventually win the long war because of the fact that the west, its support for Ukraine will flag.

Along those lines on Who's Talking this last week, I talked to Oliver Stone, the famous film director, who, a couple of years ago, did a series of interviews with Vladimir Putin that were criticized for being soft, even fawning. And let's look at that exchange. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: I think it is fair to say that you are most controversial these days for a series of interviews that you did with Vladimir Putin over a couple of years in the mid 2010s, in which you've been criticized for being too friendly and even fawning. Why didn't you challenge Putin more in those interviews?

OLIVER STONE, FILM DIRECTOR: I'm sorry, Chris. That's absolute bullshit. Look at the fourth hour, for example. This is in the fourth hour. And, constantly, I am pushing it in this interview.

WALLACE: But when he makes a contention, do you challenge it?


STONE: Sometimes you have to play game of getting an interview. Do you understand? If you look at --

WALLACE: I understand. When you get to sit down with a dictator, why would you want to tiptoe around the fact that he has been accused of killing his political opponents?

STONE: He'd been accused, okay? I've never seen hard evidence of that.

WALLACE: Are you really sitting here, Oliver, saying you think that Putin has been unjustly accused?

STONE: I'm saying I'd like to see --

WALLACE: -- of attacking or killing his political opponents?

STONE: Again, I have to ask you, what's the motive to doing this if somebody --

WALLACE: Because he's a dictator and he doesn't like people who are a threat.

STONE: That's a little simplistic.

WALLACE: You said this summer, that Putin, this is your quote, is not the monster that he has been portrayed by American propaganda. Really?

STONE: You're going about this all wrong. You're not even looking -- giving the guy a break. You're not understanding his point of view.

WALLACE: I'm not giving who a break?

STONE: I'm talking about Putin. You're blaming him for -- what is he doing to the Russian people? Think about it.

WALLACE: Oliver, the question I would ask you is why are you giving Putin such a -- why are you siding with Vladimir Putin?

STONE: I'm not siding with anybody. (END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: And that's really exactly the point, Abby, is, just as you saw Oliver Stone there, who is talking about, let's give Vladimir Putin a break, I don't know that anybody in the Congress is going to go that far. But, you know, with all of the competing interests, like as Jim Jordan said, like immigration, like crime, various issues in this country, there certainly is, particularly among House Republicans, not Senate Republicans, diminishing support for continuing to finance the war in Ukraine.

PHILLIP: Yes. Look, first of all, that interview was really eye- opening. It is kind of shocking to hear how he talks about this. But to your point, support, or lack of support for Putin, has become tied to partisanship, which is a new phenomenon in this country. And I think that's what's playing out on Capitol Hill.

Chris Wallace, thank you, as always, for joining us.

WALLACE: Thank you, Abby. Good to be here.

PHILLIP: And you can catch Chris' show on Max.

And up next, despite being under a limited gag order, Donald Trump continues to attack the officials in his fraud trial. And tonight, they're fighting back.

Plus, during one of Trump's courthouse rants today, did he just admit to business fraud? We'll play the clip for you.



PHILLIP: Donald Trump has essentially turned his fraud trial into a campaign stop this week and Letitia James has basically had enough. The New York attorney general is striking back at Trump's insult parade during his appearances in a New York courthouse. And, remember, he's already been issued a gag order to stop attacking clerks, but listen to what he said today.


DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: We have a prosecutor, Letitia James, is incompetent. She did this because she was running for governor. And then she ran and she failed.

We have a racist attorney general who's a horror show.

LETITIA JAMES, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: I will not be bullied. And so Mr. Trump is longer here, the Donald Trump show is over. This was nothing more than a political stunt, a fundraising stop.

Mr. Trump's comments were offensive, baseless.

TRUMP: You borrow money, you pay it back and you get sued by a political animal.

JAMES: But they were comments that unfortunately fomented violence, comments that I would describe as race-baiting.


PHILLIP: Now, despite that one gag order that has already been issued, it does not look like Trump is actually going to stop lashing out at anyone any time soon.

So, what does this all mean for his trial that is ongoing? I want to bring Temidayo Aganga-Williams, former January 6th committee lawyer, and David Aaron, a former federal prosecutor.

David, let's start with Trump. What do you make of the fact that he keeps going there? Letitia James called it basically racist. What do you make of what happens next here?

DAVID AARON, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: He is going to keep pushing. He is going to keep trying to delegitimize the proceedings. He is going to keep trying to fundraise off of this. And he's going to keep pushing and pushing and pushing knowing that the judge really doesn't want to impose the punishment that has been threatened. And he'll keep pushing until the moment that judge does, and even then, maybe he won't stop.

PHILLIP: And James, I mean, he has obviously really put Trump in her sights, and Trump has accused her of doing it for political reasons. But that was a pretty strong statement that she decided to make. She didn't have to say anything at all. What do you make of the decision to do that?

TEMIDAYO AGANGA-WILLIAMS, FORMER JAN. 6 COMMITTEE LAWYER: Well, President Trump, he commands a lot of attention. And I think Attorney General James is both thinking about what's happening in the courtroom but just clearly concerned what's happening outside the courtroom. And that's where the former president really has control, frankly, because he often sets the tone.

I think she's made the estimation that's important for her and her office's efforts that she's challenging his attacks on the legitimacy of her investigation, of the justice system, as put forward in her case. So, I don't want to weigh in whether it is good or bad but I think she's made the estimation that it's important for her.

PHILLIP: What about you, David? I mean, did she just give Trump what he wants, which is a reaction?

AARON: In a sense, engaging with him publicly, outside the courtroom door rather than inside, you're on his turf, in a way. But she's showing that he's tough, too, and that she can give back in an appropriate way. I don't think she said anything that was inappropriate for someone in her position, for a public servant. You can see how it could merit some response and I think she was well within the bounds.

PHILLIP: I want to play a little bit more of what Trump said today. This was a little bit of an eyebrow-raising comment. Take a listen.


TRUMP: My financial documents are valued much less than my actual value, which nobody even knows. The financial documents that I gave to the bank are much less than my actual net worth.


So, therefore, I gave them to the bank. It can't be fraud because I gave them lower numbers. I'm probably one of the only people ever to seek the loan. I didn't even need the loan because you see the kind of cash I have. I didn't even need loans.


PHILLIP: Honestly, I'm watching his lawyer's faces behind him. They're just like, okay. So, what did he just admit to?

AARON: It's hard to follow. And it's hard to know what he admitted to. I think what we saw there was the results of a lot of pressure, pressure that's starting to get to him - pressure, you know, affecting his livelihood, his freedom, his family, because that didn't make a whole lot of sense.

PHILLIP: Is it the exoneration he thinks it is?

AGANGA-WILLIAMS: I think it's clearly not. I mean, he's admitting to putting forward false financial statements. Somehow here, I think that would hurt him in a financial sense. But I think what's really important here is that the investigation gathering process for all of these cases is not over. And by that, I mean, when you are the target, the defendant in a case, and you are making public statements, those can and will be used against you.

So, for example, when the former president comes out and says, talks about his cases, those prosecutors are looking at each word he's saying. So, that's important in civil case here because money's on the line. But to the extent that the former president does this as it pertains to his criminal cases, those prosecutors, I guarantee you, will use those words against him.

I think there's a reason why he's been a bit more careful with his criminal cases and speaking about the subjects there, but I think he's really going to dangerous territory here because each word, each slip of a tongue, that could be a confession in a way, and that's going to be -- that's going to come back up in court.

PHILLIP: What you're saying just makes me wonder, I mean, this is about financial penalties at the end of the day here at this trial, right? Is he sort of betting that the judge is not going to penalize him? Because he's a former president, he can say whatever he wants, and it'll look like retribution if he attacks him too much and the judge, you know, penalizes him at the end of the day because of that?

AARON: I think he does seem to be trying to push the judge into reacting. And maybe it's because he thinks the judge won't, or maybe he thinks because if the judge finally does, he has a better argument on appeal, that he's been treated unfairly.

PHILLIP: Yeah, that's a good point. There are appeals in all of this, too. David and Temidayo, thank you both very much. And up next for us, a wild attack on an Uber driver by a biker. See what happened as it fuels a conversation about crime in America. Plus, new tonight, CNN is learning that the president's dog, Commander, has been involved in more biting incidents than had been previously reported.




PHILLIP: A disturbing attack on an Uber driver and an arrest tonight in that case, only intensifying this conversation about crime in America. Take a look at this video. It shows a biker in Philly climbing off of his bike and then smashing into the back windshield of a woman's car.

She exits the car and prompts him -- that prompts him to pull a gun on her. All of this happened while her children were in the back seat. Nikki Bullock told CNN affiliate KYW, "I'm just grateful that my kids are okay. There's not a scratch on them."

Here with me now is Solomon Jones. He's a radio host and author of "Ten Lives, Ten Demands: Life and Death Stories" and "A Black Activist's Blueprint for Racial Justice". Also with us, Charlie Dent, a former Republican Congressman from Pennsylvania.

Solomon, this story really caught my eye because for two reasons. One, this woman is an Uber driver, a working-class person, a child was in the car. It's seemingly random, violent crime. A gun present pointed directly at her face. When we talk about crime, it often gets politicized. But I think about women like that, people like that who are often the victims. What is going on here?

SOLOMON JONES, PHILADELPHIA RADIO HOST: I think that people's behavior has changed. I think that when the pandemic hit, some of the social niceties kind of disappeared. We've always had problems with motorbikes and ATVs and that sort of thing in the city, but it's a minor nuisance. This kind of behavior is different.

You haven't seen people jumping on people's cars, kicking out windshields, putting guns in their faces. I think there's just a difference in what people believe they can get away with, and they do it because they can. And in this case, thankfully this guy was caught, but I just think it's a difference in people's mindset.

PHILLIP: Yeah, Charlie.

CHARLIE DENT (R), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE, PENNSYLVANIA: Well, I have two kids who lived in Philadelphia. One just moved down to Washington. But nevertheless, we've seen this firsthand. My son -- I saw his wheels stolen off his car several months ago. My daughter got assaulted downtown just walking from the hospital back to her apartment. My niece lives in a neighborhood where car jacking's going on randomly. We just saw this horrific incident on television.

But I think part of it is, like Soloman said, it's the pandemic. But I also think in Philadelphia, too many of the local officials do not support local law enforcement, starting with the district attorney. And I think that's not a small part of this problem.

We see other random acts. You mentioned the four-wheelers and people would drive around with these four-wheelers in the center business district making a racket. I walked up to two police officers, I said, why don't we enforce this? We're not permitted to enforce.

JONES: Well, I think that's a little bit off. They're not permitted to chase them, because it would be a danger to people who are in the neighborhood. Imagine, a high-speed chase, ATV, a motorbike, et cetera.

PHILLIP: But when we look at what happened in Philly just a couple weeks ago, the kind of almost flash mob style looting, robberies that were happening.


The city is, like a lot of cities, frankly, is struggling to deal with this. A lot of it is perpetrated by teens, young people who are engaging in, in some cases, extremely violent crimes that might seem like property crimes on their surface, but can lead to serious injury or death.

JONES: Sure. I think one of the things that happened with that particular instance is that you had a police officer who killed somebody in his car who was sitting in his car with a knife who couldn't speak English. His windows were rolled up. His doors were locked. The police officer shot him six times through the car window, lied about it, and then a judge dropped all the charges. So, that started that whole incident.

PHILLIP: Although I will say the police did say that they do not think the robberies were related to those protests.

JONES: I don't think they were either, but I think that's what started it, right? So, there was a protest. And then what happens with a lot of the gatherings, whether it's the ATVs, the motorbikes, whether it's looting, et cetera, a lot of that stuff is arranged on social media. And so, you had someone on social media who they arrested because this person livestreamed the whole thing.

But what I found ironic was that the police officer who actually murdered somebody, they dropped all the charges, but this person who livestreamed this looting, they threw the book at her. And so, I think that there's a sense of injustice with people, but I also think that there are some opportunists that take advantage of that anger in those situations. Just a couple days ago, Charlie, you know, Congressman Henry Cuellar

was a victim of a -- armed carjacking in Washington, D.C. He's not even the first member of Congress to be --

DENT: Mary Gay Scanlon of Philadelphia was carjacked.

PHILLIP: Yeah, to be -- and another Congresswoman was nearly assaulted in an elevator with -- by an armed man with a knife. All of that to say, something is happening in the country, and I want to put to the side for a second the debate over the numbers. But something is happening where people are experiencing crime, and it's become so politicized in Washington, it almost seems like nobody is talking about real solutions here.

DENT: Well, yeah. I mean, but the consequences to all this -- I mean, you go to these stores in Philadelphia, I mean, to go buy toothpaste, you have to unlock the case to give you a toothpaste. I mean, the stores are closing, the Wawa, popular stores are shutting down.

PHILLIP: I guess what I'm saying is like, if you're, when you listen to Republicans, they say it's all about supporting law enforcement. But supporting law enforcement has nothing to do with other people are stealing toothpaste from CVS.

DENT: Well, but I have felt for some time that law enforcement doesn't feel like they're being supported by many local officials. I'm not saying that's the case of every local official in Philadelphia. But too many, like I said, starting with the district attorney. They have not prosecuted a lot of violent crime. You could talk to the people who worked in that D.A.'s office about what a --shambles it is.

And at some point, you know, the D.A. needs to lead and provide justice and help crime victims and their families. There's a lot of these crime victims, of course, who are just ordinary people just trying to go about their lives. It's really horrendous, what's happening. Not just Philly.

PHILLIP: Any truth to this idea that, you know, there's obviously a concern, right, about criminal justice and making sure that people are not unduly punished, disproportionate to the crime that they committed. But is there any truth to the idea that there probably, there may need to be more enforcement of even small, seemingly petty crimes in this kind of environment?

JONES: I think part of what's happening in Philadelphia is that you have a drug problem that's out of control. You have people who are in an area called Kensington that's like this open-air drug market like you've never seen before in your life, who are going around the city and doing all kinds of things in order to support their drug habits. You can't blame Larry Krasner for that. He's not putting a needle in their arm. He's not putting the drugs in their veins. He's not causing them to do that. They're doing that.

And so, I think part of what needs to happen is that we need to stop trying to blame one person. And we need to really attack the problems that are leading to some of this crime that's happening in Philadelphia and beyond. I think people feel that there is injustice. People feel that there's one set of laws for some people and one set of laws for others.

And so, when people feel that way, they will not obey the law because they don't think that it's just. I think that you have to address that first rather than trying to say that it's all on one person when it's not.

PHILLIP: It's not all in one person, but there's --

JONES: That's what Charlie's saying. Charlie said it's Larry Krasner, it's the D.A.

DENT: I think he is largely responsible for the failure to enforce a lot of violent crimes or properly prosecute it. And I just saw another guy who committed a crime who had killed somebody.


He's out on the streets. I mean, this is very common, unfortunately, in Philadelphia today. It wasn't the case. I knew Lynne Abraham, who was a district attorney, Democrat, very good district attorney, and other district attorneys who took their role seriously as law enforcement officers and prosecuting violent, serious crime.

JONES: Well, first you have to arrest the person before you can prosecute them. And so, when you have the low clearance rates that we have in Philadelphia, you can't prosecute somebody that hasn't been arrested. And what you find is that when people are poor, when people are of color, the crimes aren't solved because nobody's arrested. And so, you can't prosecute when you don't arrest.

PHILLIP: I don't know, it makes me crazy, but I wonder if there's a solution here in which you both get criminals off the streets and you also treat people fairly in the system. I mean, you can do both things at the same time. It's just that the conversation never seems to get there.

DENT: Well, you just showed that video where that crime occurred, where that terrible person jumped on the car and smashed the windshield and that's right by City Hall. That's right in the central business district. I've seen videos of people driving -- doing donuts right in that area even around police cars. I mean, I can't understand what is happening.

Maybe this is pandemic-related but this lawlessness that I've seen, not just in Philly. I've seen -- I've been to San Francisco. It's horrible what we're witnessing.

JONES: If you want to talk about solutions, I think there's a couple, right? So, city council is looking at drones and using drones in order to first spot crime and then prevent it. And then you have the police department really talking about focusing on social media where a lot of this stuff starts so you can stop it before.

PHILLIP: Yeah, so much performative criminal behavior, if you can call it that, happening right now. Solomon and Charlie, great discussion. Thank you both very much. We're learning tonight now that Biden and his -- or Biden's two-year-old German Shepherd dog "Commander", has apparently been biting a lot more people at the White House than we previously knew.

So, what is going on here? We have a professional dog trainer, Matt Beisner, who has some answers for us coming up next. Plus, the ironic name calling by NFL star Aaron Rodgers against Travis Kelce, involving the COVID vaccine.




PHILLIP: So, it appears that "Commander" has been at it again and again. CNN has learned that the president and first lady's two-year- old German Shepherd has been involved in more biting incidents than we previously knew. The Secret Service has acknowledged just 11 bites, but according to sources, the real number is higher, and it includes White House workers and executive residents' staff. One bite required hospitalization.

With me now is Matt Beisner. He's a certified professional dog trainer. The Zen dog, Matt. So, 11 biting incidents alone is, I think, for most dogs a real problem. If that number is higher, what would you do in a situation like this? What should the Bidens do?

MATT BEISNER, CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL DOG TRAINER, THE ZEN DOG: Well, first, I want to thank you for having me on. And I want to extend my empathy and compassion for President and Dr. Biden and the staff and the dog and the people in that environment, because this is obviously not an easy experience for anybody and because there's a risk and the sensitivity to that, I think is particularly important.

The step I would want to look at is, is what might be happening in the environment that might be predicting or contributing to this kind of behavior. Generally speaking, from an evidence-based standpoint, behavior works, that is to say that behavior is functional. So, if I work it backwards from there, what's quote working about this behavior for "Commander"?

And it seems like there's a lot of other support to be had that may be specific to who this dog is as a sentient being and what kind of adjustments can be made in the environment that support everybody's safety and his well-being.

PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, it seems like also the Secret Service has been a particular target of "Commander". What do you think could be triggering him there?

BEISNER: Well, I think about the things that are wonderful about German Shepherds, their loyalty, their acute awareness and changes in the environment. It's not unusual to have a German Shepherd be sensitive, highly sensitive to sight, sound, movement. And sometimes, something as unusual as a suit or somebody wearing sunglasses can be a stressor if not an actual trigger.

It's not a coincidence that I am getting a chance to speak with you. I was in love with dogs. And then when I was a kid, I got bit on Halloween by a German Shepherd. So, I've spent a lot of time, including the one that I'm currently living with, thinking about how I can better support the animals so that it doesn't feel compelled to behave that way.

PHILLIP: Yeah, really difficult questions. I mean, German Shepherds are notoriously protective, but when that behavior ends up injuring people, it becomes a real problem. As you pointed out, nobody wants anything bad to happen to either the people in the White House or to "Commander", either. Matt Beisner, thank you so much for sharing that with us.

BEISNER: Thank you for your time. I'm happy to offer my services.

PHILLIP: And new tonight, CNN is learning that Liz Cheney -- Liz Cheney played a role in Kevin McCarthy's ouster as speaker. Hear what she told Democrats. Plus, Jets Quarterback Aaron Rodgers is taking shots at another NFL player for getting shot. And there's a lot of irony involved. We'll explain next.




PHILLIP: Aaron Rodgers is taking some pot shots at a fellow player while he's out with an injury. The NFL star went after Travis Kelce, who we should note is dating Taylor Swift. Over Kelce's new ad for Pfizer, it promotes flu and COVID shots. Listen.


AARON RODGERS, NFL QUARTERBACK: Our defense played well and, you know, Pat didn't have a crazy game and, you know, Mr. Pfizer, we kind of shut him down a little bit and have, you know, his like crazy impact game. Obviously, you know, some yards and stuff.


PHILLIP: Now, Rodgers famously refused to get the COVID vaccine and he's accused of misleading the league about his vaccination status. But the irony here is that Rodgers works for one of the heirs of Big Pharma, the Jets owner, Woody Johnson, of the Johnson and Johnson empire. So, essentially, he's taking a paycheck from the very man whose wealth comes from the pharmaceutical powers that he's denouncing.


Laura, some people don't have a sense of irony. Luckily, that is why we are here to point out the facts, as well.

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR: I'm just -- I'm just glad that you don't want me to talk about Taylor Swift right now.

PHILLIP: You can.

COATES: No, no, no. Good evening. Thank you so much, Abby. So nice to see you.

PHILLIP: Have a good night.