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Testimony Underway in Day 14 of Trump Hush Money Trial; Defense Attorney Attacks Stormy Daniels' Credibility, Truthfulness in Contentious Cross-Examination; Trump's Former Oval Office Director Testifies in Trump Trial. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired May 09, 2024 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And we're back now with our breaking news coverage of former President Trump's criminal hush money trial. White House aide Madeleine Westerhout is on the stand now testifying to details of a White House meeting that she arranged between the president and Michael Cohen in the first few weeks of the Trump presidency.

But the day started with the cross-examination of Stormy Daniels by the Trump team. The defense using Daniels's work in the adult film industry to try to discredit her.

One exchange reading, quote, this is Necheles, Susan Necheles, Trump's attorney. You have a lot of experience of making phony stories about sex appear to be real. Daniels responds, wow, that's not how I would put it. The sex in the films is very much real, just like what happened to me in that room.

She's referring to the room with Donald Trump. The sex is real, that's why it's pornography.

And at another point, Necheles seemed to insinuate that Daniels wouldn't feel upset by seeing a near-naked Trump because she is a porn star.

Necheles saying, You acted and had sex in over 200 porn movies.

Daniels, 150.

Necheles, Necheles, but according to you, seeing a man sitting on a bed in a t-shirt and boxer shorts was so upsetting that you got lightheaded, the blood left your hands and feet and you almost fainted.

Joining me now is jury consultant Leslie Ellis. Leslie, we're monitoring this testimony right now from Madeleine Westerhout, but certainly we were monitoring this testimony earlier from Stormy Daniels, where the defense was trying to discredit her, trying to basically say she was a porn star extortionist, picking apart her past statements as well about this alleged sexual encounter.

I wonder how different jurors might react to that. LESLIE ELLIS, JURY CONSULTANT: It's interesting because you -- in any group of 12 people, you're going to have people from all different backgrounds, opinions, experiences, and those all color and affect how people take in and weigh evidence and how much credibility they give it. So I think you're exactly right. There will be different reactions to that.

I think, you know, a lot of people talk about whether men and women might see something differently. I think that's even too broad of a generalization. One thing we often see is that older women who might be from more quote-unquote traditional households might see evidence like that differently from young professional women.

Again, a generalization, but that's sort of a differentiator that we sometimes see and how people react to evidence like that.

We also see generally people do like to see -- jurors like to see participants in a trial treat each other with respect. They understand that there have got to be criticisms, but they prefer those criticisms to be relevant and substantive.

They do like to see participants treat each other nicely and respectfully and civilly. So I think that could also, the tone of some of those questions, I think could have struck different jurors differently as well.

KEILAR: That's a really interesting point. I do just want to let our viewers know that Madeleine Westerhout is testifying to essentially the chain of custody of these checks. Among these checks, no doubt, and I think we'll come to in later testimony, the checks that were sent to Michael Cohen as reimbursement allegedly in this hush money payment.

So the jury, Leslie, was pretty engaged in watching the Stormy Daniels testimony. I guess, not surprising, it was pretty engaging, right? But less so according to our Jake Tapper who was there in the courtroom.

When they were listening to testimony from the Trump Org employee who had sent those reimbursement checks that I was talking about there from Trump to Michael Cohen down to the White House to be signed by the then president. Is that a problem?

ELLIS: I think I always caution my own clients about not trying to conclude too much from taking notes or where they're looking or who they're looking at.

[15:35:00]

But I think another thing that's important to remember, and it's difficult for us to understand the bigger picture and know what it is the prosecutors need to prove, to put ourselves in the shoes of the jurors who don't know, right?

The nature of the way these trials, any trial goes, they get preliminary instructions, but they don't get the substantive instructions until after they've heard all of the evidence. They don't get the rules of the game until the game is over. They might not know why that's relevant, what elements of which charge that evidence is relevant for.

We know, the judge knows, the attorneys know, but they don't know. So they might be wondering, why am I hearing about checks getting FedEx and who's signing what check and for what purpose? And if they can't figure out for themselves what this is important to, they might think that I can sort of sit back on this a bit.

I also think they might be slightly exhausted after the Stormy Daniels testimony, right? As you said, that was pretty salacious. These are some of the more mundane details.

They might just be thinking, OK, I can sort of relax and just listen to this and not be quite as on the edge of their seats as they have been yesterday afternoon and this morning.

KEILAR: Yes, you never knew what was going to happen with that testimony. So certainly not surprising they would feel that way. Leslie Ellis, thank you so much.

ELLIS: I don't think prosecutors knew what was going to happen either.

KEILAR: I'm not sure anyone knew exactly what was going to happen there. Leslie, always great to have you. Thank you so much.

ELLIS: Sure, thank you.

KEILAR: Prosecutors are now questioning Madeleine Westerhout, this former Trump White House aide, a junior aide, and yet one who was very close to the president, basically his Oval Office gatekeeper. She's testifying about the way that Trump handled checks that were sent to him from the Trump Organization.

We'll have more from inside the courtroom as this historic hush money trial continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN HOST: Happening right now in the courthouse right behind me, prosecutors attempting to connect the dots between how Donald Trump operated while president leading up to a February 2017 meeting between Trump and Michael Cohen that prosecutors say is when reimbursement payments were actually worked out. It's really at the core of the allegations of the charges here. Paula Reid and Kristen Holmes are back with me now here in New York.

All right, Paula, we're hearing from Madeleine Westerhout, who's very close to the president, was involved in actually giving him the checks that were sent from New York related to the Trump Organization. Why does this matter for prosecutors?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So this matters because you want to talk about the fact that she saw these checks going to the president. He was signing them.

[15:40:00]

The prosecutors will argue that, you know, in totality, that clearly he knew what he was signing these because he was so detail oriented that he knew everything that was going on in the Trump Organization. Something multiple witnesses, including her, have testified to just how deep in the weeds he was.

But I want to point you to the testimony of Jeff McConney. He's one of the Trump organization officials who testified. He said that, yes, that was true. Trump was incredibly detail oriented until 2017, and he said once he went to the White House, things really changed.

Not only were there procedures in terms of how checks were signed, right? They had to get in these FedEx boxes, but also in terms of how deep in the weeds Trump was. Suddenly he was the leader of the free world.

On defense, they're also going to argue that at this time they were really trying to wall off a lot of what was going on at the Trump Organization from the White House because there were so many concerns about how Trump was going to profit from being in the White House.

So I don't think this is a bulletproof thing just because he said in a couple books and a few people observed him being very detail oriented. We have to remember that Jeff McConney's testimony is that all that changed in 2017. And he is critical because he is the one who testified about those notes from Allen Weisselberg, who allegedly was part of this conspiracy. And Weisselberg is not expected to testify because he's currently in Rikers.

So I just want to put an asterisk, even though she too has testified how detail oriented he was. One of the key witnesses has said, yes, that was true until 2017, which is the time of the alleged criminal conduct.

MATTINGLY: Which is interesting to point out because the prosecution team just put out a checker or some type of evidence that showed that Rhona Graff had sent a note to Trump about whether or not he needed to suspend his golf club membership, and he had responded in Sharpie, pay ASAP, which I respect. He likes golfing, he's clearly going to keep using it. Which seems like he's paying attention.

He's obviously getting these checks. Westerhout's testifying in terms of how that actually happens. There were always questions about the separate, the wall that was put up between the business. The McConney testimony was fascinating in that regard. What's your sense of it?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and McConney, that came out during the defense. That was when they really tried to pin down McConney. OK, yes, you said that he always wanted to have his hands on things. Did things change after he won the election?

Yes, they did.

Was it more chaotic?

He said, to say the least.

I mean, he was really trying to paint a portrait of pure chaos at some point. Now, I assume what we're going to start seeing in the cross- examination of Madeleine is the other side of that.

Them asking her, what was it like at the White House at that time? The defense asking, was it chaotic in the White House? Was there a lot of people coming in and out? Was he sitting there signing these checks meticulously, or were there people in and out of the room?

They're going to try to build all of what was happening around this as so chaotic that it would be impossible for him to be actually paying attention and knowing exactly what he was doing as he was trying to, one, learn how to be president, because as we know, the former president did not know or think at that point he was going to end up being the president back in 2016. And that was what they were really focused on.

Now, of course, whether or not they can actually paint that picture remains to be seen, but that's what they're trying to do here, is to create a different reality than the one of Donald Trump having his hand in everything, meticulously going through line by line.

MATTINGLY: Paula, the prosecution clearly driving, saying in other emails displayed between Westerhout and Rhona Graff about buying a picture frame for his family photo, showing some evidence, clearly trying to make the point that he was still deeply involved here. But they're driving towards the Michael Cohen issue, right? They're driving, as they've done throughout with every single witness, build the foundation and then drive to that point.

What are they trying to prove with this witness, Madeleine Westerhout, on that front?

REID: That Michael Cohen was meeting with Trump during this time, something that she testified to a short time ago, that she would have seen, who was coming in and out of the Oval Office. When, of course, there was at least one meeting inside the Oval Office that I have a feeling they're going to really focus on.

But right now, the fact is that this case, proving it beyond a reasonable doubt, a direct link between the defendant and falsifying business records in 2017, that will rest on the shoulders of Michael Cohen. Otherwise, there is no direct link.

The only other direct link is Alan Weisselberg. He is in Rikers. He is not expected to testify.

So all of this leads up to Michael Cohen. He is, without a doubt, the most complicated witness in this case and also the most consequential.

MATTINGLY: Yes, I think everybody very clearly understands that. Kristen, Paula, thank you guys very much.

We've got a lot more to get to. We're going to keep following developments out of the New York courtroom as our special coverage of Donald Trump's hush money trial continues.

[15:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: All right, we're back with CNN special coverage of former President Trump's criminal hush money trial. After hours of heated testimony from adult film star Stormy Daniels, prosecutors are now questioning Madeleine Westerhout. Pardon me as I am looking to the ticker here to see what she is saying here.

But as we understand, Westerhout just got upset on the stand. She teared up and cried on the stand when she talked about how she had lost her job. She had really been providing a lot of context about how checks were coming into the White House, how she was setting up meetings with President Trump and Michael Cohen not long after he began his presidency.

But then she was asked about how she had lost her job in the White House after being very close to the president, even as a junior age, someone who was very much a gatekeeper. The judge, Juan Merchan, handing Westerhout a tissue.

Let's talk about this now with our panel. Audie, this is --you know, this is reminiscent of the Hope Hicks testimony that we saw last week.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: It's a little different in that she -- her exit. Right. Her departure from the White House was obviously far more jarring for her as a young person.

And you guys earlier alluded to this idea that she felt very fondly towards Mr. Trump. And you're kind of seeing that in this moment where literally the judge has to hand her a tissue.

ZELENY: Right. And she at this moment, she also cried. I'm just refreshing my memory from reading our stories.

[15:50:00]

CORNISH: You're kind of seeing that in this moment where literally the judge has to hand her a tissue.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Right. And she at this moment, she also cried -- I'm just refreshing my memory from reading our stories at the time when she called to apologize to the president at the time for making some unkind comments about his daughter, Tiffany Trump, Ivanka Trump during a summer outing in Bedminster.

So that was what she was writing about at the time. And she was supposed to be at this off the record dinner with reporters. And she was talking about the president's family.

But we see right there, President Trump forgave you. She said he did.

So this was she was young. She was a young RNC staffer. I remember she worked in Trump Tower during the transition period, and she was really got to know the president at that point. The president-elect at that point. But -- this is the set up to the cross-examination, right?

CORNISH: So this is the set up to the cross examination, right?

ZELENY: Exactly.

CORNISH: What the Trump attorneys are walking into.

ZELENY: Important to this, though, she testifies that he was in charge of or he had a handle on everything. Anything that had money related to it, anything that was business related, spending their money that the president knew about it. And also talked about Michael Cohen coming into the White House. So setting up this idea of Michael Cohen being in the White House, really in the first weeks of the Trump presidency back in February of 2017, she was getting the information to clear him in.

KEILAR: Yes, she's saying here she didn't have anything negative to say about Trump. We know that. She wrote a book that was very much fawning about Trump.

But here she is having a little bit of a sort of an emotional moment as she was asked about her departure from the White House. We'd seen Hope Hicks had an emotional moment as she was testifying to various things. She was a helpful witness when it came to President Trump, but also unhelpful in other regards as well.

And here we see this moment.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's important, you know, people are reduced to their names and titles and almost to punchlines. But it's easy to forget that witnesses are human beings and being in court is incredibly intense.

And sitting in that quiet, silent room where you can literally hear a pin drop and every eye and these intimidating jurors and a defendant you used to work for are staring at you. You know, I've seen witnesses break down before, even answering almost mundane questions. It's a very intense moment.

And I think to Jeff's point, you know, you hit on all of the main reasons for her testimony here. She's establishing that February 2017 meeting with Michael Cohen, which I'm certain we will hear about in the, you know, in the days to come.

This idea of chain of custody of the checks, where they came in and where they went and the link to the Trump Organization. And also the former president's attention to detail, which is something that prosecutors are going to use to establish that it defies reason to suggest that he would not have been aware of what the checks were for.

So even if she's not Michael Cohen or Stormy Daniels or one of these witnesses that that's incredibly high profile, she, she sort of links together a few important points. KEILAR: Here in cross examination Trump's lawyers asking about the

Access Hollywood tape, which she'd been asked about in direct Madeleine Westerhout and notes there was consternation about it at the RNC. We'd heard that before in the direct examination. What stands out to you, Audie, from this testimony?

CORNISH: Well, how emotional it is, how quickly it's become emotional. A reminder that she was a relatively young person when she was involved in all of this. And also in general, I've been very curious about how Trump's attorney has gone about with her cross examinations of these women at various stations of their life, how she's trying to, again, not push it to a point where she's no longer sympathetic in the questioning, creating a scenario where you can get the information you need or, as Ellie keeps pointing out, create doubt.

Fundamentally, if you want to prove someone has to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, but someone else also has to point out where there is.

KEILAR: This is an important moment because she's detailing how at the RNC there was always some event that everybody said, that's it.

We're not going to win, Necklace said.

Yes, Westerhout says.

Not President Trump, Necklace followed up.

No, Westerhout says.

Trying to establish this idea of what was Trump really worried about following the Access Hollywood tape? Was he worried about his wife or his family finding out details of what was being alleged, perhaps, by Stormy Daniel or Karen McDougal? Or was he worried about the election?

ZELENY: Look, and that is something that at that time, I'm not sure that she was working in Trump Tower at that point or if she started in the transition. I know she did start in the transition, but I thought, interestingly, she also was asked about Melania Trump. Talk about someone who's really not been mentioned in this trial at all.

And she said something very interesting. She said there was no one else who could put him in his place like her. And when she came into the room, things lightened up and people laughed.

So that is just a kind of an inside probably has very little to do with the trial.

CORNISH: But she didn't say this not a context of that relationship. And it didn't sound like from what we're reading that it was she was the boss in a mean way. She describes them as having a positive and real relationship, talking about laughter, et cetera.

[15:55:00]

So a lot of this will come out more in tone as we learn more from the transcripts. But during the day, like she very much is being portrayed as somebody who was close physically and therefore understood the atmosphere at that time.

KEILAR: Yes, she said, she said it was special when she saw them together. She felt that their relationship was special. We have more to talk about ahead. Everyone, thank you so much. We'll have much more of our special coverage after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Back now to our special coverage of former President Trump's hush money trial. It has been a full day of testimony from several witnesses. The most heated exchanges coming after adult film actress Stormy Daniels took the stand for a second day.

She sparred with Trump's defense team over her credibility, her motivations, also her work in the adult film industry.

[16:00:00]

Daniel's testimony was followed by that of a bookkeeper from the Trump Organization, Rebecca Manochio testifying. She sent Trump's personal checks to the White House for him to sign. And it was her understanding that Trump is the only person who could sign his personal checks.

Finally, we heard from a former White House gatekeeper whose desk was just outside the Oval Office during Trump's presidency. Madeleine Westerhout on the stand, continuing right now. And she actually had an emotional moment here just moments ago as she recounted her departure, her firing from the White House.

Thank you so much for joining us. CNN special coverage of this trial continues now with Jake Tapper on "THE LEAD."