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Paralegal Testifying About Reviewing Phone Records. Aired 11- 11:30a ET

Aired May 10, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:54]

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Objections right now inside 100 Center Street, Donald Trump's attorneys are trying to stop the prosecution from using a 1999 CNN clip, a Trump interview with Larry King in which the former president discusses campaign finance laws. It has been a busy morning once again inside court, but it's hard not to look forward to what we are expecting on Monday. That is when a source tells us Michael Cohen will take the stand. I'm Dana Bash in Washington. And you are watching CNN's special live coverage of Donald Trump's hush money trial.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Kaitlan Collins here in New York. The former president left the courtroom just a few moments ago, stopping to say hello to "Fox News" personality Judge Jeanine Pirro as he made his way into the hallway. Of course, as we know, it's not just members of the media who are inside the courtroom. Other public figures can also go inside, members of the public themselves.

Prosecutors and Trump's attorneys have spent much of the morning on details questions, how Trump handled checks. Did he pay attention to what he was signing? What bone records may or may not establish about this case. There's much more from our reporters inside the court as the jury is taking their seats once again.

But, Dana, of course, it has been a morning where maybe it's not a household name, but they are trying to basically lay the groundwork for that Michael Cohen testimony on Monday.

BASH: Yes, they sure are. And we're going to talk more about that here with our panel. We are, I don't know, almost two hours into the court, at least from the outside in, starting again today. Elie, bring us up to speed about what we've seen so far.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So every trial has its ebbs and flows. I guess now we're in an ebb of sorts, but an important ebb. This is really important stuff. What we've seen so far this morning is really they're trying to build a foundation for Michael Cohen. They're building up to Monday. And they're putting subtle but important pieces in place.

For example, we just saw two witnesses from AT&T and Verizon phone records. But those phone records will surely support some of the things Michael Cohen says. For example, I'm sure he'll be asked, how often was Donald Trump in touch with Allen Weisselberg? I'm sure he'll say all the time. I'm sure the phone records will support him on that. So these types of building blocks are really important.

There's also an interesting debate happening right now about whether they -- whether the prosecutors can introduce evidence of Donald Trump back in 1999, talking to Larry King about his views on campaign finance laws. And we all know Donald Trump has said several times, including in connection to the 2016 election, I'm the world's foremost expert on campaign finance laws.

But this goes to one of the key theories of the case, that the reason they falsified those hush money payments was to evade and to violate campaign finance laws. They need to show some sort of knowledge on Trump's end. So we're building up to Michael Cohen. It may seem dry, but it's really important. It's all going to come back into focus on Monday.

BASH: Yes. It's the bricks that Andy McCabe was talking about the other day. And just to kind of us back to what's happening right now in New York, the objection that you were talking about to bringing this clip from CNN from way back in the day is they, the Trump defense says that it's not relevant with respect to his state of mind in 2016 and 2017. We're talking about almost a decade later.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Let's use two important legal definitions here that should be in everyone's head or in every first year law students head. Number one, relevance. This idea that any evidence that is introduced in trial ought to make a fact more or less likely to be true that is central to the case, right? And here, what the argument that the defense is making is that you would be bringing information that isn't relevant. It doesn't help prove or disprove whether Donald Trump committed this act on this day. It's just talking about what he did in the past.

And then there's a tinge of prejudice in there as well, which is another important legal term. This idea that you could bring in evidence that might actually be so damaging that it sort of taints the jury's mind about the defendant individually and personally.

BASH: And just real quick, we are getting to the heart of one of the major charges against the former president, which is the use or alleged abuse of campaign money.

[11:05:01]

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. Because what makes this a felony is that it's done in order to either aid or commit or conceal another crime, the false business records, because falsifying business records is also a crime in and of itself in New York, but it's a misdemeanor. What makes it a felony is if you're doing it in order to commit this other crime or have the intent to conceal or commit this other crime. And the prosecution alleges three theories of crimes that Donald Trump is alleged to have intended to cause a tax evasion and federal and state election laws. BASH: OK, Kasie, welcome back.

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Thank you.

BASH: You know, you have been, I'm sure, watching every detail of this in between this very long show this morning and coming back now. What's your takeaway, particularly as we wait for this break to be over from Trump's former assistant or when he was in the White House?

HUNT: Yes, I mean, look, I thought it was really interesting the texture that she brought to it in terms of her being relatively sympathetic to Trump, right? We haven't seemed to have so much of that on the stand, certainly not from Stormy Daniels, who openly admitted that she hated Trump. So to have someone who seemed to think very highly of the former president, I felt was an interesting contrast.

I do think that what I'm most interested in is how we're going to feel as the big picture starts to come together here because we were very caught up in every moment, hanging on every word of what was going on with Stormy Daniels and the kind of whiplash between that. And now what we're seeing in terms of Verizon records going into the record, these sort of very mundane details that in all likelihood are probably more important to the actual outcome of the case or could be more important to the outcome of the case.

Still, I think, it leaves me without a clear sense of kind of where we are. So I am looking forward to when we get to Michael Cohen and we start to see how this all ties together. And, you know, Michael, I'm not sure what you think about how that plays with a jury in particular, kind of the up and down nature of this.

MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, I think jurors pay attention to a lot of things that happen in a trial. And it's easy to lose a jury if you don't keep them engaged and keep something interesting before, sort of bait them until you set the hook and keep it in their mouths as you go, it's hard to advance. So they're used to the up and down.

And this also, I kind of think about it from the week strategy, and that is week being the calendar week. The prosecution could not want to end on something where they could be attacked. They couldn't end on a vulnerable witness this week. They couldn't end on somebody with credibility issues this week. So they needed to get this sort of administrative stuff out of the way. Friday is a good day to do that.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: And for all the historic nature of this trial, it is a trial. So for any of us who have covered cases or prosecuted cases, this is what a trial looks like. It's not an episode of Law and Order where everything is sexy. I mean, there are some fundamental housekeeping things that are very important. But I think Madeleine Westerhout, so.

BASH: So, and as you bring her up, I just want our viewers to know that what you're seeing in the bottom right of your screen now, you just see a sketch of Trump, there you see, that is a new sketch that we just got in from earlier this morning when Madeleine Westerhout was on the stand. Continue.

ZELENY: And she is interesting, I think, in the sense that she really is the connection between the evolution of Donald Trump. I mean, we are still talking about a period here of time when he was just becoming president. I think we think of him now as already served president and running again. But this is a period back in 2016 into 2017, so very -- their processes are just being set up in the White House.

But she was talking yesterday, then again this morning on a cross examination about Michael Cohen and clearing him into the White House. So next week, we are going to be talking about the time when Michael Cohen came into the West Wing. It was a dramatic day for all of us who remember that day. He was always in the orbit of Donald Trump.

Was he going to come into the White House? Was he not? He didn't, of course, but he came for that meeting. And also on P.O. Boxes, she said something very interesting this morning, that one of the reasons she used a federal express was because it was faster, but the president had a post office box. I did some checking with former people who worked in the Obama White House and the Bush White House.

They said neither one of those presidents had P.O. Boxes. I'm not sure about other presidents, but that's an interesting detail that a president would want a P.O. Box for personal mail. So we're learning --

HUNT: Yes. I have to agree with you, Jeff. It's really, really --

ZELENY: So it has nothing to do with the trial, but interesting history here --

BASH: Our viewers are saying that the former president, fist pumping the air. He's walking back into the court. So we do expect that it will likely resume soon. Elie has now made his way over to the magic wall. Elie, everybody is on pins and needles waiting for what Jeff was just talking about. The prosecution we expect are going to -- they're going to call their big final witness, Michael Cohen. What do we expect from that testimony?

HONIG: Yes, Dana. This will be the most important moment of this case. So let's take a look ahead to what we can expect to hear from Michael Cohen when he takes the stand on Monday. Easy to forget now, but there was a time, as you know, Dana, when Michael Cohen was Donald Trump's fierce advocate, lawyer, fixer. And he's going to take the jury back to that time.

[11:10:13]

Now, Michael Cohen spoke just yesterday. He gave us a little bit of a tease about his upcoming testimony. Let's take a quick listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: I'm kind of looking forward to it because, again, it can't be finished with something unless you start it, right? It's kind of like an entrepreneurial mindset. You can't be in it unless you're willing to get in it. And so there we go. You know, sooner this thing starts, the sooner this thing finishes. And that way I can, yes, this, too, shall pass.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HONIG: A little bit oblique there, but our CNN reporting has confirmed that he will be testifying on Monday. Now, the most important part of Michael Cohen's testimony will go to these catch and kill schemes. And we heard testimony earlier from David Pecker that he and Cohen worked together to pay for the rights for and then squash damaging stories to Donald Trump, including Karen McDougal. And of course, most importantly to this case, because this is where the criminal charges lie to Stormy Daniels.

Now, with respect to the Stormy Daniels hush money payment, Michael Cohen will testify that he first made the payment over to Stormy Daniels and her lawyer. That was for $130,000. He actually drew down on his own home mortgage in order to get the money.

And then in the months and years that followed, Donald Trump and the Trump Organization reimbursed Michael Cohen for that payment and for other expenses for $420,000. So Michael Cohen is going to detail those transactions. And importantly, who knew what about what and when for the jury.

Now, Michael Cohen, prosecutors have made a point to say Michael Cohen is going to be corroborated. He's going to be backed up in part by documents, including, for sure, those reimbursement checks that were used to repay Michael Cohen, a series of $35,000 checks paid to Michael Cohen once a month for a year. Some of them, not all, but some of them were signed by Donald Trump himself.

And really importantly, and we just saw this morning and yesterday, the prosecution is laying the groundwork for this crucial meeting that happened in the White House February 5th, 2017, a few weeks into Donald Trump's term. When Michael Cohen meets one-on-one with Donald Trump, and I think Michael Cohen, we can expect him to testify. Here's where we discuss the Stormy Daniels payment and the reimbursement scheme that really goes to the heart of these charges.

BASH: Elie, I'm going to ask you a follow up question about what the defense is going to plan, looking ahead to Monday. But meanwhile, as you were talking in the courtroom, the judge sided with the defense on what they were fighting over. And the question was about whether the Trump interview from CNN in 1999 where he talked about campaign finance would be allowed as evidence. And the judge said the answer is no. He also said just gave a little bit more on timing. So that's interesting. That's certainly a win for the defense.

HONIG: Yes. And then it goes to the Stormy Daniels payment because one of the things prosecutors need to show is that there was some knowledge by Donald Trump that what they were doing was avoiding those campaign finance laws. Prosecutors are going to have to prove that some other way. Now to your other question, how are prosecutors going to cross examine Michael Cohen? I think for quite a while and quite aggressively.

First of all, Michael Cohen has already been convicted. He pled guilty in federal court back in 2018 to certain crimes, including campaign finance violations relating to the Stormy Daniels payment. That sort of plays both ways. Good for the prosecutors to say here he already pled guilty to essentially doing this. Defendants are going to say it shows he's dishonest. He made false statements to Congress. He also pled guilty to tax fraud and bank fraud, having nothing to do with Donald Trump relating to his own finance.

The other lines of cross that I would watch for is other prosecution witnesses have already testified that Michael Cohen was unreliable, was a liar. You can bet they're going to cross on that. Personal bias, I mean, Michael Cohen hates Donald Trump. He makes no bones about it at this point. The defense will point that out. And finally, that Michael Cohen has a financial motive. He's made quite a bit of money from his books and his other media appearances.

So we're a few days out from this. But this cross examination is going to be intense, Dana.

BASH: Yes, absolutely intense I think it's going to be. Certainly somebody mentioned law and order. I mean, that is one of the many moments that we wish we had a camera in the courtroom for. I think all of the moments we wish we had a camera in the courtroom for.

[11:14:24]

All right, Donald Trump is back in that courtroom fist pumping the air as he walked back in. The jury is now back as well. We're going to have much more CNN's special live coverage after a very quick break. Stick around.

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COLLINS: A repeat witness on the stand right now. That's inside 100 Center Street, the courthouse just behind me. The prosecution has just recalled a Manhattan paralegal in the district attorney's office to the stand. I'm Kaitlan Collins in New York. You are watching CNN's special live coverage of Donald Trump's hush money trial. And this is a familiar face that we are seeing back on the stand, someone who already testified.

And what's notable is also the presence of someone else inside that courtroom, the district attorney, Alvin Bragg. He has not made many appearances inside the courtroom, only a handful. And since this trial has started, now we are on day 14 -- day 15, right, Paula Reid? Are we day 14? Have we lost track?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I think I've lost track. I live here now. I live here now. So what's in a day?

COLLINS: All day.

REID: All day every day.

[11:20:02]

COLLINS: OK. So this is Georgia Longstreet. She's already been on the stand previously. But why is it -- why are they bringing her back? And also, what's the significance of Alvin Bragg being back in the courtroom for this because he's not always in the courtroom.

REID: No. The last time we saw him, actually, Georgia and one other D.A. employee were supposed to testify and he showed up to support that. Now, that other employee ended up testifying, she got kicked to the next day. But he's there to show support because she's only on the stand because the defense refuses to stipulate to what she's going to testify to. She previously took the stand --

COLLINS: Which means they won't just agree, a tweet is a tweet, the sky is blue.

REID: A tweet is a tweet on this day. And that's their strategy. They want to bog the jury down. And this, what we can confirm ourselves is at times very tedious testimony about metadata, about, you know, phone logs. And now she's talking this time about text messages and calls. Last time she testified about social media posts to get those into evidence.

This time, the prosecutor said last week that they were going to bring her back for a little bit of additional testimony. But it is the first repeat witness that we've seen. I'd expect her to be brief, but she's only up there because the defense refuses to just agree and let this move in.

COLLINS: And her job is basically to just go through all of Trump's social media posts that they are sharing, that they want to bring in as evidence to show to the jury.

REID: Exactly. And they could bring in other social media posts, too, potentially some from Michael Cohen. But that has been her role so far, is just to say, yes, I reviewed these, I can verify. And bring them into evidence. So, for example, when Michael Cohen testifies, they can ask him about them.

COLLINS: Well, Donald Trump, you know, initially said he would testify. I don't think anyone who has covered him, Kristen Holmes, has taken this seriously or believed he would. He has now since started waffling on this. But this is a way for jurors to see Trump in his own words. I mean, they have made a tactic of this babying the prosecution of using Trump's words against him here, whether it's in books that he wrote decades ago or recent tweets and posts that he has had, including clips from campaign rallies.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's true. And what you saw here last time that she was on the stand was that they were trying to enter in a bunch of tweets. And now you're seeing it again. The defense really objecting to any of these being entered into evidence.

One of the big ones was a Truth Social post that, where he essentially says, if you come after me, I'll go after you. Now, at the time, he was in a different court case. This is about, Jack Smith actually filed a motion saying this was a threat to witnesses. The campaign scrambled saying this wasn't about this at all. This was about something related to the campaign, politics. Now, that was entered into evidence here as well. Unclear what they're going to do with it, but obviously there is an illusion that it's possibly connected to witnesses.

The other part of this, of course, being what you mentioned, which is Donald Trump himself actually testifying or not. He loves to play the game with the media. Will I won't I testify? Because he knows that if he says he might, that that becomes fodder that everyone starts talking about whether or not Donald Trump is going to take the stand. But the reality is, there is no one who wants Donald Trump to take the stand, including Donald Trump.

He doesn't want to ask, answer any questions about what happened with Stormy Daniels because --

COLLINS: Because he gets cross examined.

HOLMES: Exactly. And so, and they essentially allowed, I mean, you know, more about this, but they said that it was fair game if he decided to take this stand on almost anything that he had been in court for legally across the spectrum, including E. Jean Carroll. None of the things that they want brought up in this court.

REID: If he takes the stand, his testimony will decide this case. Now, it is his call to make. His lawyers will defer to him. He gets to have the final word. I'm told that the results of the Sandoval hearings, what does and does not get to come in, what passed bad acts, including E. Jean Carroll, results of that apparently didn't have a huge impact on his assessment here.

It's still unclear. I think his legal team would certainly prefer that he not take the stand. Any lawyer in America would prefer that their client not take the stand in this situation. But if he does, it would decide the case. What comes out of his mouth?

COLLINS: Well, and right now, they're showing tweets that came from April 2018. I believe it was April 9th that Michael Cohen's house, his apartment, his office were raided. These are tweets from Donald Trump about Michael Cohen. I'm not sure which one this is, but it may be the one where Donald Trump was saying initially, when everything was happening to Michael Cohen, Donald Trump was saying, oh, I'm not worried about him. He'd never flip. Michael Cohen's been very loyal to me.

And to see the total 180 that relationship has done is so remarkable. Just Donald Trump and Michael Cohen, I mean, it's easy now to see where their relationship has totally deteriorated. But Michael Cohen would do essentially anything for Donald Trump when he was running in 2016.

HOLMES: Yes, and before that as well. I mean, he was his longtime fixer, his longtime right hand. I mean, he was doing the dirty work that no one else wanted to do, which I think he would also agree to that, at least particularly now. The thing about Michael Cohen and the relationship with the former president, I do want to remind us, remember when that office was raided, and again, he said Michael Cohen will never flip. But the one thing that we all paid attention to, the fact that there were tapes.

COLLINS: Well, and this is the tweet that they're reading right now, which is apparently prompting laughter in the courtroom. The tweet said, if anyone is looking for a good lawyer, I would strongly suggest that you don't retain the services of Michael Cohen. I mean, the irony that is Donald Trump retained Michael Cohen services for decades and is precisely why, you know, we're sitting here outside the courthouse right now.

[11:25:13]

REID: Exactly. In the next tweet that they're bringing in juxtaposes Paul Manafort, who, of course, went to trial, was convicted multiple times and remained loyal to Trump. He was eventually pardoned, comparing him to Michael Cohen. Trump tweeting, then I feel very badly for Paul Manafort and his wonderful family. Quote, justice took a 12 - year-old tax case, among other things, applied tremendous pressure on him. And unlike Michael Cohen, he refused to, quote, break, makeup stories in order to get a deal. Such respect for a brave man. So clearly that's used to show how Trump treats people who are loyal to him as compared to people who are not.

HOLMES: Well, as we know, Paul Manafort is now currently in talks with the campaign to do something for the convention in the summer.

COLLINS: And Trump pardoned him.

HOLMES: He did pardoned him. And now he is --

REID: He played a long game.

HOLMES: -- a very long game, but it might be paying off.

COLLINS: Included prison time.

HOLMES: Yes.

COLLINS: And Donald Trump pardoning him.

REID: I think he had gout, I believe, if I recall, in prison. He had a rough time in prison. But, yes, he played a really long game. He got that pardon, and now he's a fixture of Mar-a-Lago.

COLLINS: Yes. There were no Italian suits in prison.

REID: No peacock leather coats.

COLLINS: I mean, it is remarkable because what the prosecution clearly seems to be doing here is portraying this narrative for the jury now to show how Donald Trump, because they're going to use what Michael Cohen has been saying about Donald Trump. I mean, his attorneys have already been quoting it, but they're also using what Donald Trump said about Michael Cohen as all this was happening and he began to cooperate with investigators.

REID: Yes, this is the pressure he's trying to apply on a potential witness, how he has tried to pressure Cohen for years and years. Problem is, Cohen has not exactly suffered in silence and instead has repeatedly attacked and showed extraordinary animus towards the defendant. Something that defense attorneys, I think their greatest challenge there is just calling down which examples they want to use.

COLLINS: And Ron Kuby is also here with us. He's a criminal defense attorney. And Ron, it's great to have you back. You know, as we are looking at these tweets from Michael -- from Donald Trump about Michael Cohen and the very different ways that he spoke about him, saying no one should retain his legal services. That wasn't long after he said he didn't believe Michael Cohen would ever flip on him.

I wonder what you make of how -- how's the defense team that's sitting at that table right now as these posts are being read aloud? How are they taking this?

RON KUBY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They know all of this is coming. They've seen all of this evidence before. And they recognize that their biggest challenge is to impeach the credibility of Michael Cohen. And you might think that's easy given the fact that Michael Cohen was Trump's right hand man and now is saying all these terrible things about him and has all kinds of motivation to lie.

But the truth is, Michael Cohen has been sort of so attacked by other witnesses already. If he walks into the courtroom and isn't foaming at the mouth and has to be hit with a rolled up newspaper, the jury's going to say, he doesn't seem so bad. And let's face it, the prosecution is constantly calling, it almost always has to call highly compromised witnesses, mafia killers, father raping, baby killing terrorists on the witness stand. And they rely on other evidence, videos and e-mails and other witnesses to corroborate the story those witnesses tell.

And in comparison, Michael Cohen just isn't that bad of a guy. Look, he's playing the role that we love in America. He's playing the role of the repentant sinner. Yes, I did all of these horrible things, but I did them for Donald Trump. And now I am embracing my redemption with the same passionate intensity in which I embraced my sins. And at the end, the prosecution's just going to get up there in summation and say -- yes?

COLLINS: Well, I just want to read you an update, because they're reading all of these posts that they clearly plan to use and believe are helpful to their case right now in real time. And another is from May 2018. It's a little over a month after Michael Cohen was clearly in serious legal trouble, after he had his home and his office raided by the federal government. And Trump posted Mr. Cohen, an attorney, you know, clearly trying to distance himself from him, saying he received a monthly retainer, not from the campaign, and having nothing to do with the campaign, from which he entered into their reimbursement, a private contract between two parties known as a non- disclosure agreement.

Trump is saying that these are commonplace agreements that happened. But Trump clearly was weighing in on this in statements that we now know aren't true, that Trump was involved in, that he did know about the reimbursements to Michael Cohen. And obviously, as a defense attorney, you to be prepared for that. How do you make that argument to the jury when your client's words are printed out right there on the screen in front of them?

[11:30:06]

KUBY: With great difficulty verging on --