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CNN Live Event/Special

Now: Witness Testifying About Michael Cohen's Phone Records; Now: Jury Shown Business Records Prosecutors Allege Were Falsified; Now: Defense Cross-Examining Paralegal About Phone & Business Records. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired May 10, 2024 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Trump tweets, Trump checks and Trump phone records. Prosecutors are running through a litany of documents inside the courthouse. Behind me right now is Georgia long street, a paralegal has just stepped down from the witness stand. She has been tasked with reviewing social media posts from the former president quite an undertaking. I think we can all note that.

I'm Kaitlan Collins in New York. You're watching CNN's special live coverage. A new witness has just been sworn in Jaden Jarmel-Schneider. Right now, one of the prosecutors is leading the direct examination as all of these questions are coming to a head here, looking at these documents. All is that courtroom prepares for what it guarantees to be blockbuster testimony from Michael Cohen on Monday.

CNN's Paula Reid and Kristen Holmes are here outside of the courthouse with me. And what they are running through are right now reports on Michael Cohen's phone. So as phones were seized when the FBI went into his house, his office and his apartment back in April 2018.

But what's interesting about what they were just doing is looking through these text messages between a National Enquirer, essentially the person in-charge of the National Enquirer and Stormy Daniels' publicist. And they were arguing about whether or not Stormy Daniels was ultimately going to get paid by Michael Cohen. And she was starting to walk to go to the daily mail with her story because Michael Cohen was dragging his feet in those days before the election as he was trying to get the money together to pay her.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Gina Rodriguez is her name. And she's got a character who's come up really from the first day of trial, but we're not expected to hear directly from her. So, text messages like this. That's how they were -- the only way the jury is really going to hear her role in all of this.

It shows that the pressure that they were trying to apply on Trump and his associates to get money for Stormy Daniels. Same with Dylan Howard, not expected to hear from him, although we did hear from David Pecker. So, hearing this exchange about all of these efforts to get money for her, again, that speaks to what happened in October 2016. And again, the reason that she eventually received this $130,000. COLLINS: And it really seems like they are setting themselves up for Michael Cohen, to basically have things to back up what he is going to testify to.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, and I think that they have to because they know exactly what the defense is going to do. I mean, Michael Cohen is a known liar. So, they're going to have to paint him as somebody who was backed up by the facts, as you noted. These call logs. These various text messages. Different witnesses saying he was in the same place at the same time, because the defense is going to try to tear him apart on the stand. They're going to go after his whole personality.

And one of the things that we just saw, like just a taste of in the cross-examination of what the last witness was them trying to talk about Michael Cohen on social media. That is going to play a big part in the cross-examination.

We know that Michael Cohen has been attacking Donald Trump on social media, on TikTok. They're going to bring all of that up. I mean, not to mention the fact that he has a book called, Revenge. That's also going to come into play.

COLLINS: Yeah.

REID: It's a very multimedia witness appearance, more so than any of the other witnesses we've seen. We're going to hear from the podcast, like I see portions of his book. And I think we're going to see a lot of his social media, especially that TikTok where you're taxed on -- only Trump -- but Donald Trump's lawyers as well.

COLLINS: But how does Michael Cohen -- sorry about that. How does Michael Cohen trashing Trump? You know, and what he's been saying obviously, you know, they've had a complete break in their relationship. He says things that you don't even want to repeat on air.

But how does that take away from the ultimately what they're arguing here, which is that Michael Cohen and Donald Trump orchestrated this scheme to keep Stormy Daniels quiet. She didn't get paid. It was through Michael Cohen drawing down a home equity line of credit.

REID: It goes to credibility. Do you believe what this man says? Now, as many guests have suggested. We often as lawyers and prosecutors, he often put on people who are problematic, who have a rap sheet, who have previous convictions. That's not unusual in criminal prosecutions.

What's is a little unusual here is you have someone who for years now has made a living -- made a certainly a profit off of just relentlessly attacking the defendant. It shows so much animus towards Trump that some jurors could ask, do I believe him? Could he be blinded by hatred and either misremembering or misrepresenting what happened? It's unusual.

[12:05:00] I've never seen anything like this, where someone has made basically a career off of attacking the defendant that they now need to testify against. And the problem for prosecutors is Cohen is really going to make or break this case because he is the only direct link that they can provide between this alleged conspiracy and the defendant.

COLLINS: And how is Trump's world preparing for this? I mean, we know how the legal team is preparing for this. Obviously, they've known for months Michael Cohen was going to be the star witness of this, if not for over a year since Trump was indicted. But politically, I mean, his campaign advisors inside the courtroom right now.

Susie Wiles, his campaign manager. Susie Wiles is inside the courtroom right now. They've had other campaign aides in there, Trump's son, the Texas attorney general, a political ally of his. What are they planning, Kristen, publicly for what -- that's going to look like when Michael Cohen is on the stand?

HOLMES: You should expect to see Trump surrogates flooding the airwaves. They're going to be relentless when it comes to Michael Cohen. Remember to keep in mind, Donald Trump is the only one under a gag order. None of these other people are under a gag order. They are going to be repeating over and over again that this is a lie.

Who Michael Cohen is, saying that he has an axe to grind that he can't be trusted. It's not just going to be on television. That's where you're probably going to see the lawmakers. Those people may be vying for a spot at the top of the ticket. But you're also going to see this on social media. The Laura Loomer is of the world. The people who have millions of followers, who will do anything to protect former President Donald Trump. They are going to be going after the credibility of Michael Cohen.

And just to note what Paula was saying about questioning the credibility. We really saw that little tip of that was Stormy Daniels. I mean, trying to say that the only reason that she was out there selling her story was because that she makes money off of the story. That it's helpful for her to attack Donald Trump because then she makes more money. I think, take that and put it on steroids. And then you'll have Michael Cohen.

COLLINS: Well, and some of the people who have been defending Donald Trump. I mean, it's been a lot of silence from his family. I mean, his two adult sons have been tweeting about it. Eric Trump's the only one who's actually been inside the courtroom. He's in there two or three times. We haven't seen Donald Trump Jr. ever come to court. Obviously, we haven't heard a lot from Ivanka as she has distanced herself from that entire orbit ever since they left the White House.

HOLMES: Yeah. And I think that you probably won't see Ivanka Trump in the courtroom, likely not Don Jr. Possibly he would stop by. I mean, he does his show where he focuses a lot on this and talking to Trump allies, boosting up his father.

COLLINS: But doesn't actually go to court? HOLMES: It doesn't actually go to court to sit there during the day. I will say one of the things that we have heard from inside of Trump's orbit is that you're starting to see more people offered to come sit in court for him. And this is because Donald Trump himself has complained that people aren't there to support him that there weren't enough protesters on his behalf.

They want to show that they're there to have his back. I mean, David McIntosh was there, sitting in the courtroom was mentioned the Texas attorney general. All people who want to have Donald Trump as an ally, particularly if Donald Trump was elected in the fall.

COLLINS: Yeah. And Trump kind of walks in the courtroom. I was in there yesterday in the front row. He walks in and he goes to the defense table. And he scans the room to see who's in there. Because I mean, as much as he criticizes the media, he often seeks out to see whose there.

And it kind of speaks to also him complaining about, not having more supporters. Just today he was complaining about how locked down the courthouse is, even though, anyone from the public can go inside that courtroom as long as they get here early enough and wait in line. Anyone can go in the park across the street. But I mean, we've seen five to 10 people may be out there, I mean, not really anyone.

REID: No. Nothing compared to certainly what we see in Florida, when he has hearings for his federal case in Mar-a-Lago classified documents case or elsewhere. Just not a big presence here. But I do think it's surprising that none of his five adult children, while Barron is wrapping up high school.

You know, the other four that we don't see them. There's plenty of time. You could stop -- you know, stop in for a little while. I don't think it's surprising that we don't see the former first lady. But with his children, that is something that the jury takes note of. They're looking to see if you have family support.

And remember that at the heart of their defense is they're arguing that everything he did around this hush money payment was to protect his family. And it would add, I think, some heft to that if they were to show up. Again, he has five children. All now are legal adults. It is surprising that the only one we've seen is Eric, and it's only been a few days and shown up.

COLLINS: Yeah.

HOLMES: Yeah. And I will say one other thing. I mean, I thought what was really interesting is the fact that Donald Trump was so upset that he didn't have the support in the courtroom that his team actually started planning these events around New York to show that he had support in the city.

You kind of create an alternate reality where you have him showing up at a construction site with union members that they've spoken to before at a Harlem bodega. The crowds are cheering. Everyone's saying, we love Donald Trump. I mean, this is a direct contrast to what, as you guys said, we see in front of the courthouse, which is five people, sometimes one person with a flag.

COLLINS: And Dana, obviously, we are watching the testimony that is ongoing inside this courtroom right now. It's safe to say, it's a -- it's a stark one ad (Ph) from Stormy Daniels when she was on the stand, just 48 hours ago. Right now, a paralegal is explaining how he prepared a report and normalize the time zones from different carriers.

[12:10:00]

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Same, same, exactly the same. Kaitlan, thank you so much. Bryan Lanza is joining us here in Washington. He's a former deputy communications director for Donald Trump's 2016 campaign. Let's just pick up the conversation with where they left it off, Bryan.

What about the fact that his adult children except for a few times, Eric Trump being in there -- have not been there. And the -- and the point that -- you've heard Paula, who is an attorney -- and I think you all made it earlier as well. That the jury notice is that especially when you're arguing, I did this for my family.

BRYAN LANZA, FORMER DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, TRUMP-PENCE CAMPAIGN: Yeah. Listen, I think, you know, he would want more, but it truly is a circuit. First of all, thank you for having me. It truly is a circuit by having, you know, the rest in my view, by having the rest of the family there. You almost sort of validate what's taking place that they have to come, prop them up, show support because of these horrible things that are happening sort of validated performance.

Similar to when you saw Bill Clinton walk -- walk through the -- through the frontline, or the frontline of the White House. You know, the distance with his wife, they were still together after that scandal. And that -- he had conservatives all wound up. I think they sort of looked at that and said, it's not worth the headache. Now, you have to look at the example what the jury sees, and that's really a perspective that they had to consider. But at the end of the day, it's just -- they probably started a website.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, FMR. DEP. ASST. ATTORNEY GENERAL, OBAMA ADMIN & CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And the defendant ends up looking lonely and on an island by himself, but having family in the court can backfire. One because things are so personal and so intense in the courtroom. And often, quite frankly, you'll hear -- I mean, Donald Trump got scolded a little bit for mumbling and muttering and swearing under his breath.

You ever see a wife or a kid in a courtroom doesn't like something they hear, doesn't like seeing their dad being spoken about or insulted or whatever else. And they will often have outbursts need to be scolded by a judge well.

BASH: Well, and would you --

LANZA: Don Jr. would not contain himself. I can tell you this from 2016, I mean we constantly had to try to rein in. He who would not constrain himself in that courtroom, rightfully so, his dad's been attacked.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. And it doesn't -- and it's not. It's often not humanizing for the defendant, it's actually causing the circuits that Bryan was talking about, that really might turn the jurors off. So yeah, I mean, again, there's no rules to it. It breaks one way sometimes and different ways the other times, but as a general matter, it could be really --

BASH: It is not surprising. I'm sorry. I do want to say, it is not surprising at all to anybody who has covered the Trump campaign for a nanosecond, but Melania Trump is not there. And I mean, I was just thinking, you talked about how things have changed the whole television show, The Good Wife, was based on what happened with Eliot Spitzer and with his wife, who was standing by her man, even though she just wanted to like run away.

First do something to him, and then run away. And you do see that in some cases these days, but it's not expected. And it's certainly not surprising that Melania Trump is not there --

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Right. And it wasn't at the time. I mean, we're thinking back to 2016, this period, it was at least three or four months, I think before Melania Trump moved to the White House, in the wake of the Access Hollywood tape, in the wake of all this.

So, this is deeply personal that only they know this, so of course, she's not going to be there. And look, this is business. We talked about the courtroom being the campaign. You see Susie Wiles there. She is someone who is in charge of his campaign. She's a comforting a rule to him. We saw Rick Scott, there are other allies there.

So, this is not necessarily about the family. This is about his reelection campaign. So, I'm not really that surprised to see no family members there. We'll see next week with Michael Cohen, because he essentially was a part of the family originally back in the old Trump days, a hired part.

BASH: Well, you don't agree with that? You were there.

(CROSSTALK)

ZELENY: He called me when I was at the New York Times when Trump was thinking about running in 2012. Isn't Mr. Trump very upset that your story is not on the front page of The New York Times? He was his guy who called back. So, he goes way back.

(CROSSTALK)

ZELENY: For sure. He was his guy. There's only guy really.

KASIE HUNT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: And I mean, I remember -- you know, getting on the phone with him when they were -- when Trump was actually serious about getting in in 2016. And there was this avalanche of media coverage that said, never going to happen, never going to happen. And it was him and another aid behind the scenes who were saying no, absolutely not. And, you know, look where we are. I didn't mean to cut you off.

LANZA: No. Listen, I've been around the family since, you know, 2016. And Michael Cohen has not family. You know, none of us are. I mean, there should be no illusion. I think people, Brad Parscale has learned that model. You know, they very much are a family with themselves and people from the outside circle don't get in. You know, if Trump is a chess player, Michael Cohen was a pawn in the chess match.

HUNT: Well, I mean, certainly Michael Cohen realized that I think after he was kind of cast out of the circle.

LANZA: I think anybody spending time, 15 minutes or 20 minutes round, the family would know that.

BASH: I just want to -- I just want to touch on what's happening in the courtroom. Again, it is not the most said, tonight if not showstopping. I mean to say that, but it could be important. Again, what they're doing is using a paralegal, a different one this time. Jaden Jarmel-Schneider to get information to get documents into the record. And what that paralegal is talking about are phone records between Michael Cohen and Allen Weisselberg

[12:15:00]

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: During his testimony on Monday, Michael Cohen will be talking about. I had a phone call with Allen Weisselberg. I've talked with him often. I had a phone call with Donald Trump and prosecution now we'll be able to say, hey look everyone.

Remember on Friday, we showed you these records showing that those calls occurred. It's all part of -- again, this has sort of been the overarching prosecution theme since day one, which is let's build up as much support as much cushioning as much corroboration as the lawyer word for this for Michael Cohen as humanly possible.

And if you're the prosecutor, you want to be able to tell the jury ultimately, folks, you don't have to take Michael Cohen at his word on anything that matters here because everything he says is backed up by a document or some other witness. Now, this is -- that's not quite true. There are key points that they will need to trust Michael Cohen on, but the more you can prop them up the better.

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Elie, this is a really important point that just came in. So, if you recall --

BASH: A paralegal said, he identified an incoming call to Cohen's phone. At the same time, that his recording ended. Go ahead.

FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO: A key piece of evidence is this recording that that Michael Cohen has between him and Donald Trump, and it cuts off at the end. And Michael Cohen is going to testify apparently, that it's because he had an incoming call at the time, not that he was cutting it off, because Donald Trump said something different or anything like that and this corroborates that.

BASH: Kasie?

HUNT: Yeah. I mean, I do think just kind of to go back to what we were -- we were talking about earlier in terms of -- Elliot, your point is fascinating, is obviously someone who's never prosecuted anything about the family being in the case. But I guess I keep coming back to what they have to do to prove this crime, which is that -- they have to show that it was about the election, right?

And when you have all these political figures, right, coming through the courtroom, it does send a message that this guy is always thinking about. That's interesting.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNT: They don't see the family because as they know who Melania Trump is, right. And I bet they know who Don Jr. is, et cetera. And again, it just -- it really does seem to cast Donald Trump in this view of, you know, this kind of man alone who cares the most about being elected more than he cares about anything else.

WILLIAMS: A short of like Mike Pence showing up in court, I think there really are --

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Shorter another Beyonce showing up in court. There are very few people who would be generally known to, you know, even in a scholarly New York City audience.

BASH: I would like to see that. (inaudible) showing up anywhere, really. You come here, Beyonce, you're always welcome. We have a seat for you. Questions inside the court right now about Michael Cohen cell phone and phone records, glean from it as we were just discussing. All of this is leading to a touchstone moment. We expect on Monday when Cohen swears to tell the truth inside that Manhattan courtroom. Much more CNN coverage ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Testimony underway right now inside 100 Centre Street that is the courthouse right behind me. Our reporters who are inside the room say that former President Donald Trump doesn't appear to be paying attention to what is being said on the witness stand. However, he's flipping through multiple pages that are in front of him, news clippings, reading and using a highlighter as his attorneys are in engaging in a sidebar with prosecutors.

We've got our panel back here with us including Adam Kaufman, a former Executive Assistant District Attorney for the Manhattan District Attorney's Office. And Adam. I think you know this testimony is important to the case, it could potentially backup, but we may hear from the stand on Monday from Michael Cohen. But it's clearly something that Trump himself is not paying very close attention to why is it important for prosecutors to kind of lay this down before they do bring out a witness like Michael Cohen on Monday? ADAM KAUFMAN, FORMER EXECUTIVE ASST. MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Thanks, Kaitlan. So, you know, this is the boring part of a trial. It's all the foundational questions. Sometimes this is all stipulated. It's not here. And it's the records. It's the documents. It's the phone calls. And that doesn't just sort of come in by itself. There is legal requirements of setting certain foundational questions before those types of documents and records can be admitted into evidence. It's tedious and boring. I'm not surprised that Mr. Trump is not paying attention.

Sure, the jury is going to pay too much attention. But it is really important. And it becomes important when, you know, in a couple of ways, it's part of the story. The exhibits are what in summation the prosecutors will stand up and show to the jury specific documents, specific records, phone records will corroborate part of Michael Cohen's testimony on Monday. So, it's really important. It's just not the most exciting testimony to come out in a trial.

COLLINS: Yeah. And I should know the jurors do -- are -- do seem to be paying closer attention than Donald Trump is. We're told that they're for the most part looking at their screens. They each have basically individual TV screens in front of them in the jury box, so they can see what evidence is being discussed. Inside the courtroom is for the jury though, how are they going into this weekend because they've got a few days to kind of sit and marinate on what they heard this week.

[12:25:00]

And yes, today may not be, you know, generating headlines every 30 seconds. But the Stormy Daniels testimony was so much to take in over that two-day period that direct in the cross-examination as well. You know, what is -- what do you think there's on the jury's mind as they're going into the next few days with no court?

KAUFMAN: Yeah. You know, after 30 years, I still don't ever know what a jury is actually thinking. It's always a bit of a crapshoot trying to -- to read the tea leaves, as we say. You know, the Stormy Daniels testimony was certainly interesting. I don't say that. I mean, it was -- it was a human story, it was salacious. It had, you know, everything you want sex power, TV, movies, book deals.

So, it was powerful. It was exciting for the jury. I'm sure that's going to be on their minds. At the same time, a lot of what she said is really irrelevant to the charges, whether they did or did not have sex. Doesn't really matter when you boil it down to the charges in this case.

And so, I'm sure they'll be thinking about that because it's an interesting storyline. It's cinematic in a way, but kind of isn't that important to the case. So that's an interesting sort of dichotomy between what's sort of interesting to think about what actually really matters for the criminal charge.

COLLINS: Yeah. And I should note right now that Emil Bove is questioning this paralegal from the Manhattan district attorney's office. The Manhattan district attorney himself is inside that. And Emil Bove is asking him about the tedious work that he kind of had to do, and whether or not he also felt it was tedious. He said, honestly, I kind of enjoyed it and prompted laughter inside the courtroom.

And as this is going on, you know, what do you make of Alvin Bragg, his rare appearance in the courtroom? Obviously, as Paula Reid was reporting, he's there to support members of his team who are testifying, who don't often take the witness and maybe never.

But his just presence in the courtroom is notable because he's only sitting -- sitting like 20 or 30 feet away from Donald Trump, someone who, who has ruthlessly attacked him on social media, called embraces. Posted a picture of his face next to a Louisville Slugger that he later had to remove. I mean, what's that dynamic got to be like in there?

KAUFMAN: Yeah. So, you know, it's always creates a bit of a stir when a district attorney comes to the courtroom himself. Cy Vance used to come and watch trials. And, of course, it would make the assistant D.A.s nervous to have the D.A. sitting there. Mr. Morgan thought seldom came to court. He just -- you know, kept more to his office and saw people there.

So, when the D.A. comes in, it is -- it does create a bit of a stir, a bit of an environment in the courtroom. I think it's nice that he came to watch his paralegals testifying today. You wonder whether he'll be there on Monday for the Cohen testimony. Such a big day. It'll be interesting to see if he shows up or not.

As far as being there with -- you know, with Donald Trump. You know, I'm sure that he has a thick skin. It's a courtroom. You see adversaries there all the time. You see people who despise each other, not to say that Mr. Bragg necessarily despises Mr. Trump. But the fact that he's there has more to do with the trial and his people, and less to do with anything to do his interactions with Donald Trump.

COLLINS: Adam Kaufman, thank you for joining us. Paula Reid, Kristen Holmes also here with me as we are monitoring this. And we should note this is going to be a shorter day. The judge has made clear. Maybe the whole courtroom meets up before Michael Cohen is going to get on the stand on Monday.

But as I think what's happening here, this is moving a lot faster than we thought initially that this is going to go. Even just yesterday, I believe the prosecute -- prosecution himself -- prosecutor himself was noting that this is moving at a much faster clip than anyone believed this trial was going to initially.

REID: Yeah. It's a little surprising. There's also a lot of names that we thought we would hear from like, Kellyanne Conway or Karen McDougal, who are not expected to be called to the stand. At this point, Michael Cohen is the last marquee witness that we expect to take the stand during the prosecution's case.

So yeah, this does appear to be moving pretty quickly, especially given that most of these weeks are so short. This is the first full four-day week we've had. And the last one that we'll probably have in this case.

COLLINS: And so, it's a right after this, though -- it's not just Michael Cohen's testimony. It will then be the defense's term to turn to present their case. Do we have any idea of witnesses they may call?

REID: And we do. We know they'll probably be short, much shorter than the prosecution. They're only expected to call a few witnesses.