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CNN Live Event/Special

Michael Cohen Testifies In Trump Trial Today. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired May 13, 2024 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Thing that Michael Cohen may testify about, and that I imagine prosecutors will ask him about, is something that he testified about that people seem to forget from that 2019 testimony on Capitol Hill, which is that denial that he put out in 2018 of Trump's knowledge in reimbursements of the $130,000. Michael Cohen testified that he coordinated that false statement with Donald Trump and with Allen Weisselberg.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.

COLLINS: And a lot of members of Congress didn't really delve into, well, you know, tell us about that conversation. What was said. Who - whose idea was it? That is an area where Michael Cohen could speak to the knowledge of what happened here and why they were fashioning that false statement.

I think as far as how Trump handles this, you know, we saw how angry he was when Stormy Daniels was in the courtroom. I was in there. And he just had this permanent scowl on his face the whole time in a way that we haven't seen him with other situations. Donald Trump is so much more sensitive about Michael Cohen that I do think it will be remarkable to see how he handles just being in the same room as him, being in his presence.

I was banned from a White House event when I was covering Donald Trump because I asked about Michael Cohen in the Oval Office and it infuriated Donald Trump so much that he instructed his aides to not allow me into another event. That is the level of sensitivity he has about someone even bring up Michael Cohen's name, much less being in the same room as him.

COOPER: The question, Paula, is, does Michael Cohen have any direct knowledge of whether or not Donald Trump new, again, this business record which was marked as a legal expense, was inappropriately marked?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: He will testify that, yes, they had conversations and they worked out this alleged conspiracy together and that Trump was aware that his business was going to, you know, sort of whitewash exactly what this money was for.

Now, is that going to be enough of a direct link to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump is guilty of falsifying 34 different business records? That's really clear. And that's why Michael Cohen's credibility here is so important.

COOPER: That's why also, Judge Konviser, there's been so much detail from prosecutors about how involved Donald Trump is about his business down to micro-managing. We just heard that testimony from Michael Cohen in which he said that when he was visiting the Oval Office for their first time, Trump said to him, you know, detailed, you know, how these checks were being brought down by FedEx and he was explaining, you know, FedEx takes a while to get through the White House. Again, I assume he was testifying to that, not only to inform Congress about that moment, but also to point out how detailed Donald Trump knew even sort of how this - these checks were being sent down from New York.

JILL KONVISER, FORMER NEW YORK STATE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: That's right, the people have to prove the defendant's intent, which betrays knowledge. And Michael Cohen is the linchpin to explain to the jury precisely the level of knowledge and involvement Donald Trump had with these hush money payments. The statute, you'll remember, falsifying business records in the first degree, the Class E non-violent felony offense, requires that the defendant intended to defraud by making a false entry in a business record for the purpose of committing another crime, which, of course, that other crime doesn't need to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. But the first part does. And Michael Cohen is essentially the thread that puts together or shows and exposes, at least allegedly, the defendant's knowledge and intent in terms of those 34 allegedly false entries.

COOPER: Judge Konviser, appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

KONVISER: Thank you.

COOPER: In terms of testimony today, I mean, it's like - it will just be prosecution today. And this prosecution testimony will likely go on for several days.

REID: Yes, I would expect it to go at least through today, well into tomorrow. It could take even two days. Remember, this is the most important part of the case. They've been preparing with Cohen for over a year. And I'm told that the cross-examination will go about as long, if not longer, than the direct examination. So, I expect this whole week will be the testimony and cross-examination of Michael Cohen, and it could even go into next week. This is only a three-day week. But really this is the defense. I've reported how they're only going to call a few - a few witnesses when the defense has their chance. But this is their defense, the cross-examination of Michael Cohen.

COLLINS: Well, and, you know, I just want to also note that Trump has a lot of political allies in the room with him today. There have been days where he's only had one or two people there. He's got several elected officials, Senator J.D. Vance, Tommy Tuberville, that was saw. Also Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis. The attorney general for Iowa is in the room. I mean he has got a bevy of political allies who are in there, which speaks to how also - those are the people that they're often sending out on television to defend him and to talk about this.

But as for the cross-examination, obviously Trump's team, what they have been preparing for, they know what Michael Cohen is likely going to say. They're going to be watching very closely to see how he handles this.

But Michael Cohen is not untested on cross-examination.

[09:35:01]

I mean if you watch the testimony before the House Oversight Committee, Jim Jordan was the ranking member on that. Mark Meadows was the chair of the House Freedom Caucus. These people - I've rewatched it this weekend. They grilled him at length. And Michael Cohen - Lanny Davis later said that, you know, when they did the first murder (ph) board, basically testing it out, Michael Cohen blew a gasket and kind of lost his mind as Lanny Davis was calling him a liar. And at the end of it, Lanny Davis, who was his attorney then, said, congrats, Republicans will be high fiving you if that's how you act at that hearing tomorrow. And Michael Cohen understood the message.

And so I - it's not like they're going to be surprised by the cross- examination here. The question is how Michael Cohen handles that and how it appeals to the jury.

COOPER: Yes. That must have been a fun weekend watching that.

COLLINS: Yes, I know.

COOPER: Rewatching that testimony. I really want to hang out with you.

Let's take a short break.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:40:34]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to CNN's coverage of Donald Trump's hush money coverup trial.

Just a few seconds ago the people called their witness, Michael Dean Cohen, to the stand. He is a key prosecution witness, obviously having worked for Donald Trump for so long and then, obviously, turned against him some time before his congressional testimony in 2019.

Michael Cohen has been called to the stand and we will be bringing you all of that - all of the details as they come in.

Prosecutor Susan Hoffinger is going to conduct the direct examination of Michael Cohen.

We also have some new photographs of Donald Trump from inside the courtroom. There he is. Looks like he's in a mood.

So, let me bring in Lanny Davis right now, who used to represent Michael Cohen.

And, Lanny, thanks for being here. Michael Cohen's entered the courtroom. You said you spoke to him last

night. Tell me about his mindset testifying. This is one of the most important days of his life.

LANNY DAVIS, MICHAEL COHEN'S FORMER ATTORNEY: Well, much better than the night before he faced Jim Jordan and Mmark Meadows and the Republicans because he has a judge who's presiding. In that particular venue there were no rules and it was all attack. You walked into a room and on the wall was behind Jim Jordan, liar, liar, pants on fire. And the night before we did try to provoke him over and over again to being called a liar. So, he's going to do very well today.

Last night he and I joked about whether this will be worse than what he faced with Jim Jordan and Mark Meadows.

But I do think his mindset is, tell the truth, tell it calmly, and remember everything he says he knows - I know because I was with Susan Hoffinger for almost a year, is fully corroborated. Everything.

TAPPER: Although Cohen is testifying pursuant to a subpoena, it says that. Even if he's cooperative, he's testifying pursuant to a subpoena.

DAVIS: And in the case of the congressional testimony, we decided, until Chairman Cummings, no subpoena, we're here under oath but voluntarily.

TAPPER: Trump looked up at Cohen after he walked by the defense table. We're also told that when Cohen walked in, he's wearing a dark suit, white shirt, light pink tie. His face was facing forward. His eyes are darting around the gallery.

Cohen, right now, he's giving his family background. He's been married for going on 30 years, he says.

Back in 2019, when Michael Cohen testified before Congress, he said that "Donald Trump doesn't give firm instructions per say. He said, Mr. Trump did not directly tell me to lie to Congress in 2017. That's not how he operate. He doesn't give you questions. He doesn't give you orders. He speaks in a code, and I understand and the code because I've been around him for a decade."

Is that going to be his testimony today in terms of how this hush money scheme was allegedly hatched?

DAVIS: Well, in general, yes, that will be his testimony because that is always the testimony about -

TAPPER: Sorry to interrupt. Michael Cohen says, "actually, I really didn't want to be a lawyer. My grandmother wanted me to be a lawyer. My family is comprised of doctors and lawyers," Cohen says.

Lanny, I'm sure you can relate in any - in any - in any case.

DAVIS: Just for the record, my father was a dentist.

TAPPER: OK.

DAVIS: No, the way that organized crime cases are tried is you never get the godfather ordering somebody to commit a crime. And one of the prosecutors early on reminded me that this prosecutor had convictions of organized crime members and his chief witnesses, those of you who are prosecutors, I've never been one, always reminded me that the witnesses they're using have checkered backgrounds, some of them involving murder and worse.

TAPPER: Yes.

DAVIS: So -

TAPPER: Cohen just said, "I wanted to go to Wall Street. My grandmother's like, that's not going to happen."

But you're - but I hear what you're saying in terms of like when you have - when you have trials, often if you're going after a criminal, you're also - the witnesses are people who have been in the room where these activities were happening.

Elliot, you're nodding.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: No, I agree. And he very well may tell the truth throughout his testimony, and it very well may be - will be supported by documents and other witnesses. The best thing, however, a defendant - a defense attorney can say on cross-examination is, when you pled guilty to perjury, where you lying that day or the day before?

TAPPER: Right.

DAVIS: Oh, that's just -

WILLIAMS: So they believe you today or should we believe things you said in another (INAUDIBLE).

[09:45:02]

TAPPER: So, Lanny?

DAVIS: So - I respect this man so much, but come on, juries have common sense. You've argued to jurors more than I have.

WILLIAMS: Sure.

DAVIS: The common sense is, is this witness credible? Are you lying then or lying now is a trick.

WILLIAMS: Right.

DAVIS: The question is, is the testimony backed up by documents. Documents -

WILLIAMS: And tricks work. Tricks work. And the - DAVIS: Well, if you - if you assume jurors don't use their common

sense and they're subject to tricks. My point, I think you'll agree, that documents back him up, not (INAUDIBLE).

TAPPER: So, just to interrupt for one second. Cohen is testifying right now that he invested in taxi medallions. That's the licensing process of for taxi cabs to New York. When a client moved to Israel and he "gave me the opportunity to buy a 50 percent interest in a company."

And this, Elie Honig, has to do with a separate guilty plea that Michael Cohen made having to do with alleged criminality or admitted criminality, having nothing to do with Donald Trump.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Exactly.

TAPPER: And this is - I guess this is the prosecution trying to get this out there on their own terms.

HONIG: A dramatic moment going on right now in court. The prosecution is asking Cohen if he sees Trump in the courtroom. We've been told that Donald Trump, as is his want, is looking straight ahead at - in his seat, not to the right, where Michael Cohen, where the witness is.

Cohen leans to his right, then stands up and identifies Trump in court. That's him wearing the blue and white tie.

HONIG: So, it's a dramatic moment. It's a common moment in criminal cases. The reason Michael Cohen stands up there, by the way, is not to be dramatic, it's because you have to stand up in that courtroom in order to see everybody (INAUDIBLE).

TAPPER: You can't - yes, you can't really see over the judges immense -

HONIG: Right.

TAPPER: I mean, and, obviously, I'm not blaming Judge Merchan, but that is a wildly ego maniacal desk to have where you can't - a witness can't even see.

Trump, his eyes appear closed as Cohen is identifying him. Obviously, this is what his attorneys have told him to do, be calm, look ahead, don't take the bait, don't let this get to you.

HONIG: Yes, so far, 14 minutes in, they're - they're keeping calm, both of them. Michael Cohen pled guilty back in 2018 to federal charges, including campaign finance relating to the Stormy Daniels payoff, including lying to Congress. And then separately, having nothing to do with Donald Trump, including bank fraud and tax fraud, both of which related to his taxicab medallion business and his personal finances.

TAPPER: Yes.

HONIG: If I could pose a question to Lanny Davis because I think it goes to the heart of the matter here.

TAPPER: Michael Cohen is speaking very evenly, with a calm, even tone. So that would be like what we heard in his congressional testimony when he was so well prepared by Lanny Davis.

Please continue.

HONIG: When it comes to the key piece of testimony about what Michael Cohen and Donald Trump discussed at that White House meeting in February of 2017, is Michael going to say there was explicit communication with Donald Trump? We're going to structure it this way. We're going to do it to make it look like legal fees so it hides the Stormy Daniels payment, or is Michael going to go back to the mob boss testimony, which he's given before and said, well, it was more of a wink, wink, nod, nod. He sort of told me, do what you got to do.

DAVIS: So, the one thing I'm not going to do is predict to you what Michael Cohen -

WILLIAMS: Right.

HONIG: Well, based on your conversations with him though.

DAVIS: And based on my conversations I will say to you that Michael Cohen has already publicly testified that Donald Trump knew that what he was paying for was to be reimbursed for a crime that Michael Cohen went to prison for, and that Rudy Giuliani said on television was reimbursement. And there's never a dispute that they were for legal fees. That's what he'll testify.

WILLIAMS: And to your point, Elie, when you have ambiguity placed in front of the jury, when it's, well, it was an insinuation made by the defendant, a witness that has credibility issues is going to be tougher for the jury to believe.

Now, I don't doubt that he's telling the truth and is supported by documents and might even be supported by the testimony of other witnesses, but you can't tell me that prior convictions, particularly for lying, don't play in front of a jury. (INAUDIBLE).

TAPPER: So, Michael Cohen is now describing how he began working for Trump when he lived at Trump World Tower.

And, Jamie Gangel, obviously the prosecution is trying to get out on their own terms some of the negative information about Michael Cohen that is going to come out from the defense attorneys, such as the other guilty pleas that had nothing to do with Donald Trump or his role with Donald Trump. Cohen is explaining how he helped orchestrate a co-op board takeover at Trump World Tower to resolve an issue, which he says was to Mr. Trump's satisfaction. And I believe that is the moment that Donald Trump first saw this young man with a glint in his eye named Michael Dean Cohen. This - this is a - this is a go-getter. This guy - this kid can do things.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: So, a couple of things. I loved the lead of our cnn.com piece that our team wrote. Nobody has anything nice to say about Michael Cohen. But the prosecutors have put that out there in order to inoculate him because they know that's what's coming.

[09:50:04]

I'm also not sure that people understand how long Michael Cohen worked for Donald Trump. This was not just some casual relationship. He worked for him -

TAPPER: Yes, Cohen says he helped Trump with legal issues after that. When asked if he got paid for any of that work at the time, he says, no, ma'am. That's Donald Trump's favorite fee. None.

GANGEL: Right.

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Free.

GANGEL: So, he worked for him for ten years. In his memoir Michael Cohen says that he was, quote, "Trump's designated thug." I think the two of you have been on the receiving end of phone calls.

TAPPER: Cohen says Trump offered him a job when he met Trump at the office to inquire about $100,000 bill for work he did for Trump Entertainment Resorts. Probably seeking compensation there. Goes to Trump, and then Trump offers him a job. Maybe figured out it would be cheaper -

HUNT: To hire him.

TAPPER: To hire him than to like - then to do these billable hours.

He asked me whether or not I was happy at my sleepy old firm, Cohen says, in a - in a preview of an attack Donald Trump would make on somebody else years later.

GANGEL: So, some things -

TAPPER: Trump then asked whether Cohen wanted to work for him. And I was honored. I was taken by surprise, Cohen says.

GANGEL: So, I think you cannot underestimate how much Michael Cohen liked working for Donald Trump. This is the man who said, I'll take a bullet for him. People who know both of them have told me that they thought Michael Cohen would be the last person to turn on Trump.

We're going to hear, you know, as the other side of his lying and what he's done -

TAPPER: So, Michael Cohen's testifying right now. He offered me the position of executive vice president of Trump organization and special counsel to Donald J. Trump, whereby I would only answer to him and I would work on issues that were of concern to him, which is interesting because that suggests this guy is somebody who can help me. And I only want him reporting to me. And he'll be my guy. And that's - Donald Trump is always, as president, expressed a desire to have a person like that as attorney general. He usually talks about Roy Cohn or Eric Holder, but that's the kind of guy he wants, a very loyal one If he gets elected in November, no doubt he will have someone like that as attorney general.

Trump never paid him for the bill for Trump Entertainment Resorts, by the way. That $100,000 bill was never - was never paid. He asked me if I wanted to get fired on the first day if I asked about the bill, Cohen says, while smiling at the memory.

GANGEL: This goes straight to the question of why Michael Cohen did not go rogue and come up with this. He knew Donald Trump stiffed people.

TAPPER: So, Michael Cohen is looking right ahead of him at Susan Hoffinger, the prosecuting attorney, while testifying. He has not looked over to his left to the jury.

GANGEL: Just a couple things we're going to hear. He once told the judge, I felt it was my duty to cover up his, meaning Donald Trump's, dirty deeds. And that he's going to say he lied in court. He did it in the service of Donald Trump.

One thing to remember -

TAPPER: So -

GANEL: Oh, go ahead.

TAPPER: Well, just - Cohen is saying that he never went back to his old job after he accepted that position at Trump - the Trump Organization. Not even that day, he says. He goes in to -- from his firm for - with $100,000 bill for services rendered. Trump says, how'd you like to work for me? He's incredibly honored. He doesn't - he never gets that bill paid and he never even goes back to his old job.

Trump sent over some Trump Organization employees to pack up his stuff, Cohen says. Cohen says he never went back. And he's leaned back right now, Trump, in his chair with his eyes closed as Cohen is testifying.

Who did you report to at the time, Hoffinger asks. Mr. Trump, Cohen says.

HUNT: Who else? I mean, and this is the beginning of, I mean, as Jamie said, when you say he liked to work for Donald Trump, I mean he - he acted as though he was Donald Trump personified, right?

TAPPER: Well, he also - he did not work under - there was a general counsel at Trump Organization, and Cohen just testified he did not work under the general counsel's office. He was his own free-floating, rogue attorney working for Donald Trump.

HUNT: Look, his Roy Cohn, as you say, which I think sets the stage for what we're going to hear about how these payments were made, the way in which Michael Cohen was acting, was treated as though he was acting - he really was. And you've kind of heard this from some of the other witnesses as well, they were trying to kind of buttress this - this argument that Michael Cohen was always speaking for Donald Trump and that he was not a freelancer.

WILLIAMS: And it might support the notion that these were not actually legal expenses based on the fact that they probably were not run through the general counsel's office at the Trump Organization.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's just interesting how many times Mr. Trump comes up. Because if you've been on the receiving end of a conversation with Michael Cohen, Mr. Trump comes up a lot. The f bomb comes up a lot. And then occasionally some other words. It's mostly Mr. Trump -

TAPPER: Mr. Trump, Mr. Trump, Mr. Trump, Mr. Trump.

KING: It's mostly Mr. Trump, the f bomb, and are you doing him wrong.

TAPPER: Cohen - Cohen just said he would - he would renegotiate bills on behalf of Mr. Trump.

[09:55:00]

WILLIAMS: Euphemistic (ph).

TAPPER: So, this is -

HUNT: Lots of f bombs.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

TAPPER: This is - but this - Cohen recalls an example in which he said they received an invoice from a law firm. He's in the middle of telling an anecdote right now. And he's basically describing how he is Donald Trump's right hand. So, Donald Trump, I don't know if he would go to the general counsel and say this - you know, they're billing me here, see if you can renegotiate it. But if he - if he did do that, they weren't doing it to his satisfaction and Michael Cohen would do it to his satisfaction.

KING: A key point in the sense that Trump wants deniability. If something illegal was done, I didn't have any direct role in it. And so, as you mentioned before, there is a general counsel. So, perhaps it's some enterprises, a political campaign, a business. There's a protect the boss group, right, that protects the boss.

TAPPER: Yes. And he -

KING: Michael Cohen is - was Donald - Velcroed to Donald Trump. It was the boss protecting the boss is what he's trying to prove.

TAPPER: So, he didn't believe that the invoice in question was fair, reasonable, and justified. So, he'd give me the task of renegotiating the specific bill, Cohen said.

Trump University fell into trouble and approximately 50 vendors had not been paid, Cohen says. Here we are going through the anecdotes, showing basically that - well, explain what you think the prosecution is trying to establish here. GANGEL: So, we've already seen Hope Hicks testify to this. She dismissed that Cohen paid hush money on his own. It would go against his character. And here's the context.

KING: Trump didn't like to pay. Trump didn't like to pay. So, if he paid, it must be a big (INAUDIBLE).

DAVIS: Can I give you one quick - I asked Michael early on, what's the most disgusting thing that you did for Donald Trump?

HUNT: Investments.

DAVIS: His wife and his children did not like his work for Donald Trump. I said, what's the thing that offended your family the most? He said, there was a small vendor in Atlantic City, and a bill for under $100,000, hadn't been paid for over two or three years. He needed the money. He went to Mr. Trump and said, using his expression of Mr. Trump. Mr. Trump, this is a small business. It's a plumber. $100,000. And Trump said, pay him twenty cents on the dollar. But, Mr. Trump. Twenty cents on the dollar. That's what Mr. Cohen -

TAPPER: Well, and this is exactly the story he's telling right now because there were 50 vendors that had not been paid by Trump University. Cohen at, presumably at Trump's instructions, offered to pay them 20 percent of their invoices, twenty cents on the dollar. All but two of the vendors accepted the offer and he had them paid within 48 hours, accepting the renegotiated bill. He asked about the other two that didn't accept. Michael Cohen said they just went away. Meaning did you pay them, the prosecuting attorney Hoffinger asks. No, ma'am, Cohen says.

So, it was basically, if you did business with Donald Trump, according to this telling and according to your story, he would offer you ultimately twenty cents on the dollar. And if you didn't take that you would get nothing. Michael Cohen says he would go into Trump's office and tell him when he accomplished a goal.

I mean this - this - this testimony rings true to what Michael Cohen has told you personally.

DAVIS: And, in fact, it was stronger than that. And I said to him, how could you possibly do something so evil, a small business. Why did you carry that evil water for Donald Trump for ten years, Michael?

TAPPER: Yes.

DAVIS: He just simply said, I am ashamed of myself.

TAPPER: Well, and Cohen just talked about how he would go into Trump's office, Anderson Cooper, to tell him after he had accomplished a goal. And he said in his own testimony that he did this to, quote, really to obtain credit so that he understood that, again, I was accomplishing what he wanted. And Cohen says he felt like he was, quote, on top of the world when Trump said his work was fantastic or great.

Anderson. COOPER: Yes, Jake, I mean - I'm here with Kaitlan and Paula Reid. It's fascinating. I mean Cohen clearly looks up to Donald Trump, is honored to work there and is willing to be a terrible person with small businesses, with contractors, you know, essentially cheating them out of money that they are owed, and he does it because it makes him, he says, he felt on top of the world when Trump would praise him.

REID: Yes, all that just for that little pat on the head, that little kudo. It, you know, really speaks to their relationship, right? This is a very asymmetrical power dynamic. I think other folks have testified that members of the Trump family didn't think much of Michael Cohen. He did not enjoy broad respect within the Trump Organization.

Now, interestingly, Trump's attorney, Todd Blanche, he's sitting to Trump's right, and he has leaned forward and he is watching Cohen closely. Blanche is, of course, expected to conduct the cross- examination. And one of the challenges for Blanche is, you want to go at him to the satisfaction of the client, to undercut his credibility. But you also don't want to go too hard and throw any sympathy Cohen's way. So, he is likely studying him right now and preparing for his cross.

COOPER: Cohen is testifying now about the different problems he'd solve for - for Donald Trump. Again, essentially, working very closely one-on-one with Donald Trump at the behest of Trump.

COLLINS: And Michael Cohen knows this song and dance. When he - when he went before Congress he would testify about all of the terrible things that Trump did. I mean he called him a racist. He said derogatory comments that - that he repeated derogatory comment that Trump had said to him.

[10:00:03]

And - Michael Cohen would acknowledge. And still I continued to work for him for essentially what he's saying there, this transactional relationship that he clearly benefited from.