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CNN Live Event/Special

Soon: Former "Fixer" Michael Cohen Returns To The Stand; Trump Doing Well in Battleground State Polls. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired May 13, 2024 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00]

GEORGE GRASSO, RETIRED JUDGE, QUEENS COUNTY SUPREME COURT: He's in a phone call with Keith Davidson on the -- in -- while he was still in London, a three-way phone call with Keith Davidson and another person intimately involved, Dylan Howard, and they're talking about the Stormy Daniel case resurrecting.

So he gets back to New York on October 10th. He's working out the framework of a possible hush money deal, what we ultimately know now as a hush money deal to keep Stormy Daniels' story out of the public -- out of the public view while "Access Hollywood" is breaking.

So he brings us into a situation -- and this is brand new what we saw as far as I'm concerned. He describes this meeting, either a meeting or a phone call when he first briefs Trump on the Stormy Daniels scenario. I believe it's on or about October 10th, three days after "Access Hollywood."

He describes an angry Trump confronting him, saying, I thought you took care of it. I thought you had this under control.

And then Trump going on to say, according to Michael Cohen, this, meaning the Stormy Daniels scenario breaking, is a total disaster. Women will hate me. Guys will think it's cool. But this is going to be a disaster for the campaign.

That's almost the last -- one of the last things the jurors heard before the lunch break. And I can tell you, as I was keeping an eye on jurors and making my notes, they seem to me to be riveted by this testimony.

This is so crucial because one of the main goals for the prosecution that Michael Cohen has is to establish a motive and intent directly on Donald Trump that would cause him to take the steps that ultimately led to the $130,000 payment and be involved and be knowledgeable about it.

So, to me, by far, Wolf, that was the most compelling testimony of the day.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: So, so far, he's been a strong witness for the prosecution. Is that your bottom line?

GRASSO: Absolutely. He comes across poised, cool, calm, and collected. (CROSSTALK)

GRASSO: When I saw the Trump team, Trump --

BLITZER: Yes, go ahead.

GRASSO: I was going to say, at the break, Trump came in with a huge entourage today, about 23 individuals, including, Senator J.D. Vance, Senator Tom Tuberville. When they left at the break at about 11:30, that was one somber-looking group.

That was my -- I was sitting right in the aisle seat. So I don't think they're all too pleased about what they're seeing so far.

Obviously, a lot more to go on direct and then cross-examination. But my report, as of right now, that's what I see and that's how I'm perceiving it.

BLITZER: Interesting, very interesting, indeed, Judge.

Judge George Grasso, thanks as usual for joining us.

GRASSO: My pleasure, Wolf. Thanks for having me.

BLITZER: Thank you.

And just ahead, we'll have much more of our coverage of the criminal hush money trial of Donald Trump.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:37:37]

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST & CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Welcome back to CNN's special coverage of Donald Trump's hush money criminal trial.

Paula Reid and Kristen Holmes are back with me now.

Court resumes is less than a half an hour. So, Paula, set the scene for us right now. We've had Michael Cohen on the stand. He's been very measured and he's been very calm, a lot of restraint. Will that continue? We do not know.

(CROSSTALK)

COATES: But right now, we're not even close.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, I would not bet any money on the restraint displayed by former president and Michael Cohen continuing through a direct and through cross. I mean, things are about to get a little more intense.

Because they've just started telling the story of what happened. How did Michael Cohen pay Stormy Daniels that $130,000? The lengths he went to, taking out, you know, a lien against his own home, getting that home equity loan, not telling his wife. But then, more importantly for the criminal case, how he was reimbursed and any direct communication that he received from the defendant instructing him to falsify, write these business records. This is the meat of the case.

Now, I would expect they also, at some point, likely have to revisit some of the really negative stuff that is going to constitute the heart of the defense's cross-examination.

Not only his previous convictions, four campaign-related crimes, but also lying to Congress, lying to banks, and lying to the IRS.

And then also his six-, seven-year vendetta against the defendant, making a living of books, podcasts, and public appearance where he attacks the defendant.

At some point, the prosecutors are going to want to get out in front of that. They touched on some of it, but they have to get out in front of it.

So I think, this afternoon, this is going to get a lot more uncomfortable.

COATES: They have to confront those. They have to take the wind out of the sails. Otherwise, it's going to be a cake walk for the defense to point out all those different aspects of it.

But let me ask you, we were talking about his restraint, Cohen's restraint. Donald Trump is not looking at him. He's leaning over occasionally. I mean, that's shocking, too.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And the muttering --

COATES: Right.

HOLMES: -- and cursing under his breath that we saw with Stormy Daniels. He was visibly upset.

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: So I was told by his legal advisors that they have coached him on trying not to react.

Now, again, want to be clear. We're dealing with two loose cannons and two people who don't usually have 100 percent control. So, could it change? Yes, of course.

But part of this is that you don't want it to show Michael Cohen that Donald Trump -- that it's getting under Donald Trump's skin. They worry that that will actually give him more energy, more enthusiasm.

[13:40:02]

Because, as you noted, he has spent the last several years trying to bring down Donald Trump. They fear that if he shows he's reacting, that actually gives fuel to Michael Cohen. Instead, they want him to remain calm, remain unengaged. He's been

closing his eyes. He's been looking around. He's basically been looking everywhere, but at Michael Cohen.

But this is a very different response than we saw during that Stormy Daniels testimony.

And just a reminder here, Michael Cohen upsets him just as much or more so than Stormy Daniels does. But he is trying, clearly, to maintain some sort of calm, looking forward, not engaging with the witness.

COATES: A connected issue question of the two of them is that they are able to both speak about him and he cannot respond. Both of them were named as people when they went the judge and said, change the gag order, protection, they come at me all the time. We'll see what happens.

Paula, Kirsten, stay with me.

I want to bring in Brian Stelter, who I know has a lot to say and who has been covering a lot. He's also somebody who has had a big history. And now is a correspondent at "Vanity Fair."

Brian, someone like yourself, who is sue knows so well about the role that each of these men had played in the media attention and landscape, I wonder what you have made from this testimony today.

BRIAN STELTER, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, "VANITY FAIR": I find it astonishing that we are still learning new pieces of this story, Laura, even though this is nearly a decade old, even though this has been litigated with Cohen in the past, even though we wrote a book and he has a podcast and all the rest.

We are still hearing new information and maybe that's the power four of the criminal courts. Maybe that's the power of being under oath and taking the stand and feeling all of that pressure.

Certainly, Cohen feels that pressure because he's acting unlike the Michael Cohen that we all know.

Last time I was talking to Michael Cohen on his podcast, he was the host. And he said more than I did -- he barely let me get a word in. That's the kind of guy he is. He wants to give speeches. He wants to rant and rave.

And the fact that he's been able to restrain himself so far today is breathtaking, Laura.

COATES: I think he has been prepped. And I don't mean as in told what to say, but I mean prepped in the sense of I need to ask you a question, I need you then to answer that question only, not meander, no rabbit holes. Focus to help your credibility.

But I do wonder how media and the MAGA world is treating this testimony because he has been catnip for the MAGA world. STELTER: I think this is an important part of the story. It's related to J.D. Vance and Tommy Tuberville being there today. It's related to Donald Trump finally having some of his friends show up for the most difficult, most emotional days of testimony.

You know, this trial is his -- his pro-Trump media has tried to ignore most of this. But they can't ignore it anymore. And Michael Cohen is, in some ways, catnip. He is -- he is the villain for pro-Trump media.

And he is, of course, a convicted liar. So he plays right into this narrative that this is a sham, Trump's narrative that this is all a sham and a witch hunt.

It's frustrating, Laura. It's kind of like the Liar Olympics you know? We're dealing with so many people in this story who are all untrustworthy and dishonest in the past.

COATES: It's funny because he talked about, today, in his testimony, the idea that he used to routinely lie to the media because he was serving Donald Trump, that that was the beneficiary of his lies.

And so now you've got this discussion happening in front of a jury of, OK, well, if he lies here, there and everywhere, but he also is doing so as a person who was reporting directly to Trump. But how do you weigh that?

And actually, you've noted that Cohen -- I mean, he's a New Yorker. He's speaking to a jury of New Yorkers. How is that at play here?

STELTER: I'm really interested to hear from the jury, if any of them are ever willing to talk about the experience weeks or months later. Of course, the judge is going to urge them not to, there are safety concerns.

But I wonder, for these jurors, who are Manhattanites, who are New Yorkers, they know guys like Cohen. They know figures like Cohen. You know? And so it might play differently to a jury in another -- in another state, another part of the country.

But here are a bunch of New Yorkers kind of all clashing and coming together. It's an interesting layer of this case, I think.

COATES: Yes. And of course, they are New Yorkers who have likely known Trump in a way that many people across the country may not have known that name prior to, say, "Apprentice" or beyond.

Obviously, the name carries a great deal of citizens here in Manhattan for multiple generations at this point. So I'm curious to see if and when they do speak of how their impressive oppressions are.

For now, we'll wait to the verdict actually speaks some day in the next couple of weeks.

Brian Stelter, thank you so much.

STELTER: Thanks. Thanks. [13:44:38]

COATES: We've got much more of our coverage of the Donald Trump hush money trial ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN's special coverage of Donald Trump's historic hush money criminal trial.

Moments from now, testimony from Michael Cohen will resume, the star witness in this case.

Let's bring back our panel for some analysis right now.

Elie Honig, what kind of conversations do you think the prosecutors are having with Michael Cohen during this lunch break right now?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think little, if any. Because any conversations that they do have become fair game for cross-examination. You don't want Michael Cohen on cross saying, yes, during the lunch break, they told me, you know, tweak this, change that.

Also I think Michael Cohen is doing just fine right now. I think they're probably perfectly satisfied with the testimony he's giving. It generally has been credible and corroborated.

As we said, the key point here is going to be cross-examination.

Also bigger picture, one of the things that all the witnesses have been cross-examined on -- Michael Cohen certainly will be cross- examined on this -- how many times did you meet with prosecutors before coming in here to testify?

[13:50:00]

The answer in Michael Cohen's instance is going to be probably dozens. The judge will instruct the jury, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. It's quite common. In fact, it would be uncommon for prosecutors not to meet with a witness beforehand.

You're allowed to consider that, jury, but it doesn't necessarily mean evidence of some sort of conspiracy or something wrong. But they're going to hit on that.

And in fact, prosecutors should probably ask Michael that. How many times did we meet?

BLITZER: Yes, Michael Cohen is a witness that the prosecutors have decided to call --

HONIG: Yes.

BLITZER: -- not necessarily the defense, right now.

HONIG: Right.

BLITZER: Elliot Williams, Cohen testified to how he would alert Trump whenever he got word about a possible negative story that might emerge.

He said this. This is Cohen. "I spoke to him, I spoke, I went to him immediately to advise him that there was a story because it was a negative story for him and to get his direction on what he wanted me to do. He told me to make sure that the story doesn't get out. You handle it."

That's what he said. How does that impact the prosecution's case?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: A couple of ways. Number one, what direction he wanted me to go. It helps establish the defendant as the person running the operation.

And as an extension of that, once the prosecution makes the argument that that all of this activity was done to help the presidential campaign, you could draw a link between Michael Cohen getting a direct instruction from his boss and then the actions being taken to help the campaign.

So it helps establish Donald -- Donald Trump.

Number two, the pattern of suppressing stories and having them not get out also helps the prosecution here. Because of the fact that, even -- whether we're talking about politics or personal stories or whatever else, Donald Trump had interest in seeing stories suppressed.

So this isn't a smoking gun, great evidence that's going to -- the case is going to rise and fall on this sentence. But it does help establish a narrative and a pattern that prosecutors definitely want to be making to the jury.

BLITZER: Gloria, it's interesting. And I'm just curious what you think Trump might be saying to his lawyers, his personal lawyers during this lunch break?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well --

BLITZER: About Michael Cohen's testimony.

BORGER: I think he might be saying to them that, you know, Michael Cohen wasn't telling the truth about the conversation about Melania. And might be giving them advice, as he is wont to do, about how they should cross-examine Michael Cohen. I'm sure he's got plenty of ideas about how to do that.

But I think that, so far, Michael Cohen, to echo what Elliott has said, has done a very good job of showing who was the boss. They even called him the boss. And they went to Donald Trump when they wanted to find out what to do about something.

And you have all of these people in different places who were out to protect Donald Trump. It was David Pecker and Dylan Howard and -- and Michael Cohen who worked together. And their loyalty was unquestionable. And it was all to Donald Trump.

And Trump knew that. I mean, he understood that they would do anything for him. And he asked them to do anything for him, according to -- according to Michael Cohen,

I mean, we'll have to see whether this was inspired by Donald Trump or Donald Trump specifically asked them to do something.

And we know that it wasn't his habit to say, you do this and you do this and you do that. That he was -- he didn't give directions to people. He just knew that he wanted things done.

And I don't know, Elliott, whether -- and -- whether that -- and, Elie, whether that hurts the prosecution at all. Because he doesn't give direct orders. They just knew. You know, Michael Cohen went to him, said, this is happening. What do you think?

WILLIAMS: Well, I'll just quickly respond. It doesn't help or hurt the prosecution. The prosecutors just have establish enough to the jury to believe that the insinuation was something that the defendant actually wanted.

BORGER: But it's an insinuation?

WILLIAMS: Sure. It's certainly an insinuation.

Now, look, it's always better evidence to have the defendant have written down on a piece of paper, I want you to do this for this reason, but there are many ways to establish what someone intended, what was in their head.

BLITZER: Yes --

WILLIAMS: It's going to be more creative.

BLITZER: Jeff, I'm just curious, because just before the court went into session today, some new poll numbers came out, and Trump was actually touting these polls in "The New York Times"/Sienna poll, showing that Trump is doing really well in several key battleground states, despite this ongoing trial.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: He is. And this is a reminder that we have -- you can see the numbers right there -- that we have no idea at all the political fallout from this, if there is any, from this trial. It's kind of remarkable to think that there wouldn't be.

But if you look at these battleground states that are going to be central to this reelection, the former president is beating the current president, outside the margin of error, in every state but two, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Wisconsin actually is a bright spot on that board for President Biden.

[13:54:59]

But again, we will have to wait and see what this verdict is and how voters are assessing.

But as I talked to voters across the country in these battleground states, hey, many of them aren't paying attention at all. And they're disgusted and sort of tired with this.

But the numbers beyond the horse race are so interesting. The reason that President Biden is having problems is because of young voters, voters of color, inflation. That is the issue on the minds of voters, not this.

So again, we don't know what the political fallout is going to be. For Independent voters, that is something. And interestingly, this morning, as we bring it sort of back to this conversation, Michael Cohen said that the former president was worried about female voter.

That remains a worry inside the Trump campaign. Certainly, the comment that you mentioned about Melania Trump. So we will just have to wait and see how voters digesta this at the end of the trial.

But this is certainly a reminder this race is actually pretty stable. And Trump is ahead in most of these battleground states.

BLITZER: So still the economy, stupid?

(LAUGHTER)

ZELENY: It seems to be --

BLITZER: Not used to.

ZELENY: It seems to be. Inflation really is at the heart of so much of this. So we'll see how much this is going to play a part. But as of now, it's actually helped Donald Trump.

BLITZER: It's not -- it's not the hush money trial, stupid.

ZELENY: It's not.

BLITZER: All right, guys. Everybody standby.

Much more coverage of Donald Trump's hush money criminal trial just ahead. The trial due to resume in a few minutes, right after this lunch break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)