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CNN Live Event/Special

Now: Michael Cohen Testifies About Aftermath Of FBI Raid; Now: Michael Cohen Testifies About Turning On Trump. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired May 14, 2024 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: This is an important part. I think maybe for the prosecution and tried to get out to suggest where loyalties lie.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, exactly. And you should remember, I mean, paying for peoples' attorneys is something that Donald Trump does routinely, particularly people who have been impacted, cases that involve them. You're still paying for the stew co-defendants in Florida --

COATES: To be kind or?

HOLMES: That's always been the biggest question, right? I mean, obviously we cannot answer what exactly his motivation is to pay those legal bills. There's a lot of speculation out there as to why exactly he would do that, particularly a man who doesn't like spending money at all, would shell out millions of dollars for his own associates and their legal fees. But that is what we're seeing here is this kind of trying to keep Cohen in the fold, particularly when Cohen uses the word concern. And it was concerned, I would go to another attorney.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: And I want to make a note, Kristen touches on something really important. There are some folks in Trump's orbit, even one or two sitting in the courtroom today. And everyone around Trump will ask, why on earth do you keep that person close? Do you know -- do you know that that's not a good idea.

And I've been told that he learned a lesson from what happened with Michael Cohen. And there are some people that are far more dangerous, right? If you let them go, they can be so useful to prosecutor so potentially dangerous, that just do whatever you can to keep them close. So, I think that's an important lesson that I'm told Trump learned after the fallout, which is coming in his testimony from Michael Cohen.

COATES: This is an important point. I want to go back to Anna Cominsky, if we have her still on this because the way the prosecution is trying to get -- and this is the prosecution, eliciting this testimony. This the prosecution trying to front and have the sting taken out of the potential cross-examination by -- I don't know if it'll have or not.

But thinking about the ways in which you approach this, I mean, ladies -- and if you look at it like we have or so, but just thinking about how this all gets unpacked. I mean, you've got Cohen talking about these issues. You have -- by the way it's not even noon -- is now just noon. He is not yet to be cross examined.

There is not trial tomorrow. There is not trial on Friday. We already know because there's barons has the graduation and beyond. If they as you have reported, they intend to cross examine him for at least as long as the direct examination has been. He is up for a very long and winding uphill road.

REID: Yeah. And if he doesn't -- if they don't start cross-examination until later today, likely go through Thursday. And then the real danger for Michael Cohen is that lawyers will have three full days to prepare additional questions to get feedback from the client. And we saw with Stormy Daniels when they came back to do the rest of their cross-examination. After they had a Wednesday, I mean, they went for as long if not longer than they did in the first round.

So, the way the timing plays out here really could be detrimental for Michael Cohen in terms of what he's going to face on the witness stand. But we are in the homestretch. Once they've wrapped Michael Cohen, defense case expected to be brief.

Then, of course, they'll have to likely have some arguments over the specific instructions for the jury. They'll do closing arguments, instruct the jury. At the way this is going right now, I don't see the jury getting this before Memorial Day, but it'll likely be that week when the jury gets the case.

COATES: And by the way, you're on the campaign trail. You know, he has been complaining about having to be taken off the campaign trail, obviously, you know, people are coming to him right now, meeting him where he is as campaign surrogates and proxies. Is that how he sees the role of them? I wonder how it's going to go forward.

Jake, I want to go back to you. Because, again, it's not just the jurors who were in that courtroom today. It's also sitting members of Congress who are prepared to perhaps do his political bidding.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: That's right. And right now, Cohen is talking to the prosecuting attorney about this character, Mr. Costello, who was an associate of Rudy Giuliani, almost an emissary sent to Cohen to try to make sure -- in Cohen's telling of the story that Cohen stays on the program, stays with the team.

Cohen says, he never told Costello about Trump's involvement in the American media incorporated the tabloid empire payment to McDougal or Cohen's own payment to Daniels. I didn't trust him, Cohen says, meeting Bob Costello. And I was still remaining loyal to Mr. Trump.

And Cohen is going to great lengths to describe this in his view, pressure campaign. Costello reaching out to him saying, you know, since you jumped off the phone rather abruptly, I did not get a chance to tell you that my friend, which is Rudy Giuliani, presumably has communicated to me that he's meeting with his client this evening. That would be Donald Trump. And he added that if there's anything you wanted to convey, you should tell me, and my friend Rudy Giuliani will bring it up for discussion this evening. Hoffinger asks Cohen why Costello didn't just say, Giuliani and Trump and sort of to be covert. Cohen says, it's all backchannel. I spy-ish.

[12:05:00]

The lengthy email using cryptic messages about Cohen -- Costello's friend and his friends' client continues to encourage Cohen in this retelling to get a message to Trump through Rudy Giuliani. By his recollection, the email referenced the potential of pre pardons, I believe. Please remember, if you want or need to communicate something, please let me know.

It seems to both Jeff and I perhaps we have been played here. Let me know what you want to do. Costello's email read. Cohen says, that meant to communicate to Giuliani and ultimately to President Trump at some point during those months, coincided a conversation with his family.

And this is a presumably Lanny Davis. When you're talking about, this is 2018. He's being pressured through this emissary of an emissary. Please stay loyal to Mr. Trump. And then he talks to his family what happens in this family meeting?

LANNY DAVIS, MICHAEL COHEN'S FORMER ATTORNEY: So again, I'm not going to talk about what the family is saying except that I know that there was increasing unhappiness, and that that factor into Michael's decision to make his break.

TAPPER: Let me interrupt. So, Cohen says, my family all said to me, why are you holding on to this loyalty? What are you doing? We're supposed to be your first loyalty.

DAVIS: Yeah. That releases me a little bit more, Jake?

TAPPER: Cohen says, his family told them that it was about time to listen to them.

DAVIS: I can tell you it was very forceful and more. It seems to be Michael's -- while I'm added about Costello, I was asked to come back to New York after Michael finished his testimony. In case, Costello needed rebuttal. So, I sat in the holding room next to the grand jury, while Costello who volunteered to come in to testify -- as to come in to testify unusual according to the prosecutors. They of course, said yes. After his testimony, the grand jury said, we don't need rebuttal.

TAPPER: So, Cohen says, I made a decision.

DAVIS: Excuse me. I was told and I am not allowed to say what the grand jury said because I don't know. My impression was that the grand jury did not want to hear from Michael.

TAPPER: OK. So, Michael Cohen says, I made a decision based again on the conversation I had with my family that I would not lie for President Trump anymore. So, this is a meeting with his wife, his daughter and his son. That's what he has, right?

DAVIS: That was what I was referring to.

TAPPER: Yeah. So, he had to say, he's no longer going to live for Donald Trump. Susan Hoffinger, the prosecuting attorney asks, if Michael Cohen pleaded guilty to influence Trump's election. Todd Blanche objects are at a sidebar.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I knew an objection was coming to that question for that reason. Sort of the -- and we were talking about this a little bit in the break. This idea of why did you commit the crimes you did? Well, the obvious sentence that Michael Cohen would make is though, I was doing this for the president of the United States. Now that bleeds into possibly prejudicial testimony about the president. So, we'll see what they do with it. And if the judge lets in and out to be clear, the juries already heard it. You cannot ring that bell, so remains to be seen.

TAPPER: So, Trump, who did not react as Cohen was describing how he would no longer remain loyal is now chatting with his attorney Emil Bove, while the other lawyers are at this sidebar.

Let's bring in former Nixon White House Counsel, John Dean. Good to see you, Mr. Dean. Michael Cohen testifying about his decision to turn on Donald Trump. This came after pressure from his own family to put them over Trump. Does this remind you in any way of when you made your decision to no longer protect President Nixon?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: My decision was somewhat of an extended period of time where I worked within the White House as the tape show to try to get my superiors to stop covering up crimes, that I knew we were in trouble for. I was unpersuasive. And then finally at one point, they decided whether you will make a good scapegoat. And I didn't think it was a role that I wanted to play.

And so, I shot across their bow by going to the Washington Post New York Times. And what hold and what have you in publicly said, they had picked the wrong person to be a scapegoat. So, I was an open battle unlike Michael.

I might add, Jake, that one of the tough things for a witness, which I spent a lot of time on the witness stand are sidebars. You're sort of sitting there in limbo, not quite sure how you go after the sidebar, or and you can't hear the sidebars. So, they're very disruptive to the flow of one's testimony.

TAPPER: You said that the prosecution's case has been, quote, very powerful. Have you heard anything today from Michael Cohen that firmly establishes that in your view, Donald Trump committed a crime or embedded or enabled a crime?

DEAN: Well, I sort of thought the crime had been pretty clearly established before Michael Cohen even walked in to give his testimony. He's filling in the gaps. He is closed a couple of the gaps. That inferences could have been easily drawn by a jury that the only person that could be involved would be Donald Trump in criminal activity. So, he's been a strong witness. And It'll be interesting to see how they can smear him and mess him up in the eyes of the jury in cross- examination.

[12:10:00]

TAPPER: Well, that's certainly coming, right. And one of the big questions, of course, is his credibility. He has admitted lying. Even today, he's talked about lying, lying to the FEC. And a letter lying to the Wall Street Journal has -- you know, has everything he has said so far been corroborated by documents and witnesses with a more credible history. Is that something you see that the prosecution has done effectively laid out a paper trail to back up everything he said?

DEAN: The framework of everything he said, has certainly been established with external information or prior testimony of others. So, he's filling in gaps. And his testimony is very logically fits and closes gaps of information for the jury. So, you know, I haven't read this transcript yet. I've been reading the transcript all the way along. And it's a very powerful case, Jake.

It's -- I don't think that it's going to make or break on Michael Cohen's testimony. Although, I think there are some gaps and if there's a hunger, the other jurors might not be able to pressure if he -- they somehow are upset with Michael Cohen. I think they're going for a hung jury. I don't think they ever could envision getting a not guilty.

TAPPER: So, Michael Cohen was just asked why he paid the money to Stormy Daniels? And he said, quote, to ensure that the story would not come out, would not affect Mr. Trump's chances of becoming president of the United States.

Susan Hoffinger asked Cohen to confirm at whose direction and on whose behalf, he paid Daniels. And Cohen says, on behalf of Mr. Trump. Hoffinger asked, whether Cohen would have paid the money, if not for the election? No, ma'am, Cohen says. Your take on that testimony, which was just delivered in court.

DEAN: Just more in the flow of completing the story for the jury. And I think with -- clear answers --

TAPPER: Lanny Davis wants to ask you a question?

DAVIS: Can I ask you a question, John? And you were attacked, not only for being a liar, publicly, you were attacked by Nixon's men as being part of the crime, part of the obstruction. And yet, when you testified, despite all my colleagues reminding everyone about Michael Cohen's being a liar, you suffered that.

And yet, what is your reaction to how you coped with being accused of the crimes that you were accused of? And yet you were a principal witness, resulting in convictions? How did you react to that?

DEAN: Well, I knew I hadn't lied. I had not played any lies. I had no perjury charges. They were just trying to say, I couldn't remember things. And trying to undercut my rather massive testimony. I had testified before the Senate, given a 60,000-word statement that they requested. I read -- had they told me in advance. I was going to have to read the statement, it would not have been 60,000 words. So that was what they picked apart during the trial was to try to get some differences.

But I -- Lanny, I had not written any books. I had not made any public statements. I took a very different course than Michael. And I think he's going to have to deal with all of the filler he's added since his House testimony and other under oath testimony. And that's why he'll be on the stand a long time in unwinding that.

TAPPER: Yeah. I don't recall you doing a podcast back in 1973, Mr. Dean, nor do I recall a t-shirt. You're wearing a t-shirt with an image of Richard Nixon behind bars and an orange jumpsuit. Maybe I'm -- maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe you didn't do that. I don't recall. It's always good to have you on. Thank you for your insights.

DEAN: Sure.

WILLIAM J. BRENNAN, FORMER TRUMP PAYROLL CORP. ATTORNEY: There's a huge distinction to make between Mr. Dean and Mr. Cohen, while they both cooperated with the authorities. If you take out Watergate and take out Nixon, Mr. Dean has no criminality. If you take out Trump and Trump World, Cohen still has to answer for the lies to the IRS, the lies of the bankruptcy. There's a lot to work with.

TAPPER: And the taxi -- the taxicab medallion --

BRENNAN: And the taxicab medallion.

TAPPER: Which is originally the Southern District of New York was first referred the case of Michael Cohen. According to Geoff Berman's book because of the taxicab medallion case, which was outside of Robert Mueller's purview. He referred it to them.

But let us bring it back to what's going on in court right now because the Karen McDougal matter has come up. Just to refresh your memories. Karen McDougal 1998 Playboy Playmate of the Year had alleges that she had a longer term relationship with Mr. Trump that extended about 10 or 11 months between 2006 and 2007, right after the Stormy Daniels episode allegedly took place.

[12:15:00]

And there was also a hush money payment made to her. This one paid by David Pecker's tabloid empire American Media Incorporated in exchange quote unquote, for a column she was going to write for some fitness magazine, ghost ride. It never was written. The payment was made. And David Pecker thought he was going to be paid back by Donald Trump but was not.

And so, what's going on right now. Cohen is being asked about the payments AMI made to Karen McDougal, which was also part of Cohen's 2018 guilty plea. Susan Hoffinger says, why did you work with AMI to pay off Karen McDougal. Cohen says, in order to ensure that the possibility of Mr. Trump succeeding in the election. Cohen said, he worked on the deal, quote, at the direction of Donald J. Trump, and quote, for the benefit of Donald J. Trump.

Judge Merchan tells the jurors, Mr. Cohen's plea from 2018 is not evidence of the defendants' guilt. And you may not consider it in determining whether the defendant is guilty or not guilty of the charge to crimes. Michael Cohen goes on to say, he also pleaded guilty to tax charges and making false statements to a financial institution that were unrelated to Trump.

There you go, Bill Brennan. He's acknowledging what you've brought up several times today. Asked what the day was like. Cohen said, worst day of my life. This is the day of the plea deal. Cohen is now reading Trump's tweets from August 22, 2018, the day after he pleaded guilty.

Hoffinger says, who did you understand these tweets to be addressed to. And Cohen says, to me. Here is the tweet. If anyone is looking for a good lawyer -- the president of the United States rights August 22, 2018. I would strongly suggest that you don't retain the services of Michael Cohen. Cohen says, the tweets caused a lot of angst, a lot of anxiety.

Lanny Davis, when you were representing him at the time, what was -- what was the impact of those tweets? Cohen said, the tweets communicated certainly displeasure that I no longer I guess was important to the fold.

DAVIS: So, I just remember fear, fear about his safety, fear about his family, and fear about turning against Trump and the consequences.

TAPPER: Had he -- did he think that he had flipped when he did the plea arrangement because the plea arrangement -- the plea deal, he admits to helping to arrange payoffs to Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels are at the behest of Mr. Trump, right? Who's named in -- who's not named, but is regarded as his individual one, I think, are individual A in the indictment. So, did he perceive, oh, I have to flip on him. This is the only thing I can do.

DAVIS: No, by then he was really -- on a Friday night he was told, if he didn't plead guilty to all these charges, including the tax charges, that his wife would be indicted on Monday morning.

TAPPER: For the taxi fragment of taxi medallion fraud?

DAVIS: For something relating to the tax charges.

TAPPER: Yeah. Some tax charges.

DAVIS: And between Friday night and Monday morning, he felt he had no choice. And a very experienced former Southern District prosecutor said publicly that his plea of guilty was done under coercive circumstances as much as Bill refers to it. That's what his lawyer said.

BRENNAN: Well, wait a minute, Lanny, think about that for a minute. If the whole thing here is, Trump may be do it. I live for Trump. I pled guilty and flipped because I felt able to defeat Trump. What you just said is totally unrelated to Trump and Trump World. He lied on his taxes. I assume it was (inaudible). He exposed his wife. His wife was going to be locked up because of his criminality. And thank God, he did the heroic thing and said, I'll take the hit, but nothing to do with what we're talking about here.

DAVIS: In fairness, that's all I said is just the wife charges relating to taxes --

BRENNAN: Yeah, just on the tax.

DAVIS: And he did not want to risk that. And between Friday and Monday, he made the decision, and his own lawyer explained why.

TAPPER: So, Cohen confirmed on November -- Cohen confirms that on November 29, 2018, he also pleaded guilty to one count of making false statements to Congress on Trump's behalf in 2017. This was behind closed doors about the Trump Tower Moscow project.

He, Michael Cohen admitted that he lied about the number of conversations he had with Trump. And when those conversations stopped, I believe -- I believe he said it was January 2016, when in fact the conversations that continue through June 2016. Jurors are watching Colin inside.

As he explains he was sentenced to 36 months in prison and find the context here. We should remember this was a wild day of news because it was literally within the hour. Both the Michael Cohen plea and the Paul Manafort guilty verdicts happened, which was just an insanely -- it was an insane news day and very, very bizarre. I have very vivid memories of those happening at the same time.

[12:20:00]

Cohen says before he reported to prison on May 6, 2019, he testified before Congress in February 2019. And this is of course, his appearance in Congress when he goes forward and says a whole bunch of things that have quite frankly led us to where we are today.

I think Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has asked some questions that had to do with inflating assets, that had to do with the New York attorney general charges and fine of half a billion dollars or whatever it is. And then other questions that happened during that hearing that led us to where we are today.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah. This is important moment for the prosecution. They're fronting Michael Cohen's prior guilty pleas, convictions, what you have to do. You have to get them out there.

TAPPER: Although, the tone when they bring it up, it's probably going to be more like bills --

HONIG: A little different. Yeah. This is a good example of what we're going to see exactly the back and forth. But I mean, the back and forth will be this. The prosecution will say, he's owned up, he's been held accountable. He's done his time. Now he's come clean. The response from the defense -- TAPPER: Well, you may drop, Lanny. Michael Cohen says, the testimony came after the chair of the House Oversight Committee reached out to Lanny Davis, who was assisting me in legal strategy there. Who is the chairman of the House, (inaudible)?

DAVIS: The late Elijah Cummings.

TAPPER: The late Elijah Cummings. Oh, yes, we miss him. He was a good guy. But he reached out to you and tried to arrange this testimony.

DAVIS: And it took some persuading for Michael to take the chance.

TAPPER: Why?

DAVIS: He was facing a Jim Jordan, Mark Meadows, Republicans with a sign on the wall that we expected, and which happened liar, liar, Pence (Ph) on fire. On national television under oath as a lawyer, I had to warn them all of the risks and it took them --

TAPPER: Yeah. It's going to be rough. Cohen says, he had to pay back taxes that he had evaded her his guilty plea. He says, he paid the outstanding taxes. He owed more than 1.3 million before his own sentencing. He also paid $250,000 of fine.

HONIG: Yeah. Just to remind people what exactly Michael Cohen pled guilty to. There's really four separate sets of crimes, federal court. One was campaign finance for the payments to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal. Two, was his false testimony to Congress, not the incident, Lanny, he's talking about earlier, behind closed doors about the timing of the Trump Moscow.

TAPPER: How about the Trump Tower Moscow project and when he stopped talking to Trump about it and how many conversations you've had?

HONIG: Exactly, this Michael has said because Donald Trump is trying to minimize his involvement and make it --

TAPPER: (inaudible) Russia, Russia, Russia.

HONIG: Exactly.

TAPPER: 2017, after the presidency. Yeah.

HONIG: Right. Michael Cohen also pled guilty to tax fraud relating to about $4 million of tax -- of income, which translates to one point something million dollars of income. And then to bank fraud relating to the taxi medallion case. He ultimately ends up getting sentenced to three years.

He serves about one in -- one year and a little bit of spare change, largely because he got released early because of the COVID scares. They were trying to reduce the inmate population. So, the argument from prosecutors will be he's owned up. He's taken accountability. He's literally done this time.

TAPPER: And this is what he's saying right now. I apologize to Congress. I apologize to the country. I apologize to my family. And he's nodding his head, slightly -- and he's also just talking about the repayments he made to the government. To his testimony, he is owning up to the payments to the two women.

Cohen says, he apologized to the American public vote for lying to them, for acting in a way that suppressed information that the citizenry had a right to know in order to make a determination on the individual who was seeking the highest office in the land asked. What it was like testifying publicly. Cohen says, horrible. And that's how he felt Lanny Davis.

DAVIS: Yes. And I sat behind him, and I was worried about him getting angry. But I just want to share one other thing, not asking for sympathy from some of the justifiable critics here. When I had to make the decision to represent Michael and to take him public. I needed to believe he was ready to own what he did, because I had seen the Michael Cohen for 10 years that I didn't like very much, attacking everyone, defending Donald Trump.

And so, over a period of time, and it was Elijah Cummings that ultimately helped me decide that he was believable in his contrition. It took a former minister in a black church. Elijah Cummings to say, when a sinner asked for redemption, I have to be sure the sinner feels it. And so, it was a process for me as well as you're seeing Michael recount.

TAPPER: And Cohen says he also met several times with special counsel Robert Mueller's office before reporting to prison. He first met with the special Counsels' office in 2018. Before he pleaded guilty, Laura Coates, a lot of golden oldies going back here. The Robert Mueller investigation and Russia, Russia, Russia law

COATES: Oh, absolutely. And he also went on to say that he was not truthful to the Special Counsel quote, because I was still holding on to loyalty to President Trump. I'm back with Paula and Kristen.

This is so significant because the way they were going to front the issues about his guilty convictions, his pleas was going to be so important when they tried to humanize them. Would he take ownership and accountability? How would they fund it? Would it be in a way that was sympathetic to the jurors to suggest, hey this is the end of the rope, the end of the line. He had been cast aside. He was the pariah. And now, he's apologized to his family and the American public.

[12:25:00]

And at that point, I want to go back to -- and he's also -- he said that he was pleading not guilty -- the pleading guilty. He says, he then gave truthful testimony in substantive with Mueller's team. But here's a line, I want to go back to him. He said he apologized the American public quote, for lying to them, Paula. For acting in a way that suppressed information that the citizenry had a right to know in order to make a determination on the individual who's seeking the highest office in the land. That's a way of getting to the motive as to why they tried to hide the payment. REID: He has a lot to explain, because of course, they had to get out in front of the criminal lease for lying. But we've learned about a lot of other lies too, right? The lies he told about Stormy Daniels. The lies that he told to the FEC, omissions in terms of what he shared with his wife. Now lying to the Special Counsel eventually telling them the truth.

I think what the jury has to reconcile is if you lie to Congress, if you lie to the American people previously, if you lie to the IRS, why should I believe right now that you're not lying to me? It's not a one off. It's not a one or two things. It is a pattern of being dishonest.

And now prosecutors need to convince the jury how he has turned it around, while simultaneously launching unrelenting attacks on the defendant. I think right now, this is going to be the most challenging thing for prosecutors is to bring this home and account for all the other problems.

COATES: It's an important point. And of course, it could very well be that they're saying, look, I'm done lying. That's why he's now gone on the offense against Trump. How the jury interprets is a good question. I want to talk both sides as arguing the prosecution.

And of course, the defense and back with me are Anna Cominsky. She's Director of Criminal Defense Clinic at New York Law School. Also, Adam Kaufmann here, former executive assistant D.A. for the Manhattan District Attorney's Office.

Really important, Adam, we bring you in here because I do wonder, do you find it problematic that they are going through the things they had to find when they had to get to these issues of his honesty or dishonesty? How are they doing at presenting and framing this to the jury?

ADAM KAUFMAN, FORMER EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT. D.A. MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE: Thanks, Laura. It's so hard to get the feel of the courtroom when you're not in there. And this really is. I mean, you can read the record and the record says whatever the words are, that are being uttered from the witness stand. But a record doesn't show eye contact. It doesn't show fidgeting. It doesn't show body language. It doesn't show how the jurors are reacting to this. All of that is happening within the courtroom.

Jurors, you know, I've found in some cases, jurors buy into -- believe in a tale of redemption, that someone who did these wrongs in the past that lied and lied and lied again, but who -- you know, pled guilty, owned up to his crimes and paid whatever the penalty was. That jurors will respect that and see that as their sort of redemption tale. And they may credit that testimony. So, I think this could go anyway.

COATES: One second. I want to go back to the point. Excuse me. I hear you. I want to get back to one point. I might keep interrupting you for a second because I want to give the audience a chance to know what's on the screen. And I'll come right back to your point. We're seeing Alina Habba handed a note from the gallery to another lawyer, who then gave it to Necheles defense counsel, who then passed it to Bove, who then handed the note to Blanche.

And so, you mentioned what the jury is looking at and how they are receiving information. They also are likely seeing these -- this chain of events that are going on. And they are trying to get the words the person of course is going to cross examine, Michael Cohen, who was Todd Blanche. Go ahead.

KAUFMANN: No. I mean -- I mean, that's it. You know, the jury -- if you've got a jury consultant there, they're focused exclusively on the jury. And there may be one juror who reacted in a visible way to something that was said on the stand. And you want to capture that and take note of it and try to sort of capitalize on whatever the fifth year the defense on whatever that juror -- those jurors reacted to. Because you know, as we've said, you only need one to hang a jury.

COATES: And important point and I continue to -- unfortunately, I can interrupt both of you. Anna, I want to come to you on this. Because as you're watching all of this unfold before the jury, we knew they had to take the sting out of the fact that this is somebody who they don't want -- if you're the defense, they don't want the jurors to believe.

You also have Hoffinger, who is the prosecutor direct examining Michael Cohen. Asking Cohen about being sent back to prison after he was not happy with the terms of his monitoring. So, they're going through methodically all of this for many people. Anna, they may have thought they're going to have to address the bias that he doesn't like Trump.