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CNN Live Event/Special
Vice President Kamala Harris Holds Town Hall In Pennsylvania. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired October 23, 2024 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: And we're live from Delaware County, AKA Delco, land of Wawa, land of water ice and hoagies, where every man, woman and child bleeds Kelly Green. I'm Jake Tapper along with Erin Burnett right there. You were just watching a CNN special town hall, a potential final view for voters of Vice President Kamala Harris in a completely unscripted setting.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: I was just looking at that as you were reading it, and I could not restrain smiling. But the Democratic nominee did go against the conventional wisdom in that town hall, Jake. So, she said the American people have not heard enough about what a danger Donald Trump, especially Donald Trump unchained, is to American democracy. Those are her words.
She continually brought up warnings from Trump's former chief of staff reported in "The Atlantic" and referred to them as a -- quote -- "9/11 call to the American people." But asked point blank by Anderson if Donald Trump is a fascist. On that one, there was no equivocation. She was very clear. She answered the question, Jake, one word, yes.
TAPPER: Yes. Harris also touched on kitchen table issues, on abortion, on the border, on the now a year plus long war in Gaza, on antisemitism in the United States, and working across the aisle. She again did not go into detail when asked what she would do differently than her current boss, President Joe Biden. There was a lot of give and take and back and forth. John King is getting some reaction from some of the actual undecided audience members. John?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jake, you mentioned that Kelly Green. I didn't know there were so many Boston Celtics fans here.
TAPPER: Boo!
KING: I know, it's the Eagles. Go, birds, go birds. We got it.
TAPPER: All right.
KING: You're right. Five of the participants in our tone hall have been gracious enough to stay and spend some time with us. So, we're going to spend some time with you. Less of me, more of you. Thank you all for staying, number one. We have Erik, we have Joe, we have Taneisha, we have Lauren, and we have Pam, right? Did I get that right? Appreciate your time.
Let me just ask a couple of quick questions so that people at home can sort of put the rest of the conversation in context. You all came in, maybe leaning, but undecided or persuadable. How many of you, show of hands, will leave tonight planning to support the vice president? Two have made a final decision. Now, you came in leaning that way?
ERIK SVENDSEN, TOWN HALL AUDIENCE MEMBER: Pretty much right in the middle.
KING: Okay. Came in leaning?
TANEISHA SPALL, TOWN HALL AUDIENCE MEMBER: Leaning.
KING: Leaning. And now, you're decided?
SPALL: Yes.
KING: Okay. Now, three of you have not. So, let me start with you first, Joe. Why?
JOE DONAHUE, UNDECIDED TOWN HALL AUDIENCE MEMBER: I think there are still -- first off, I certainly respect the vice president and the work that she is doing in her office. I think that there are still some, at least for me, some personal policy differences. I don't think that -- I still can't get behind her policies on abortion. That's just something that I can't get behind because the right to life is so fundamental in this country that it becomes -- without that right being respected, it's incredibly difficult to talk about anything else.
So, I have a policy difference, a number of policy differences with her. That's the biggest one that comes to mind. But, at the same time, I'm still not sold on the former president either just because of his personality, his actions on January 6, just the way that sometimes he treats people. It's -- that gets to be a little bit difficult for me.
KING: So, two quick follow-ups, sir, not everyone. So, you don't -- you're not leaving here planning to vote for Trump? You're leaving here still not knowing what to do?
DONAHUE: I came in here leaning, uh, in the direction of the former president. Uh, I have not made a final decision.
KING: The vice president approached you.
DONAHUE: Uh-hmm.
KING: She was walking out. And we could hear a little bit of it from afar. But you're having a conversation about your disagreement on abortion.
DONAHUE: Yes. KING: Obviously, you still disagree with her. What did it mean to you that she took the time to talk to you? Did it did it mean anything at all?
DONAHUE: It meant quite a bit, actually. I will respect that. Anybody who's willing to hear ideas that are in opposition to hers, and that's -- or to anybody is really for that matter, that's something that -- that is a personality trait that I really appreciate.
[23:05:00]
And that is certainly something that, like, I try to have in myself. I do try to listen to as many points of view as possible in my day-to- day life to try to get that. So, I appreciate that element for her. It's just, sometimes, this can be so very fundamental. That particular issue can be so very fundamental to how we talk about anything else. The right to life, not just abortion, but the respect of life from the beginning to the end, is so very fundamental to how we operate as country.
KING: We have 12 days to keep in touch with you as we go forward. We will come back to the conversation. I just want to go back to the back row a little bit. So, Pam and Lauren, Pam on my left, Lauren on my right, so you're not leaving here planning to vote for her. Do you leave here any clear in either direction?
LAUREN HOLDEN, UNDECIDED TOWN HALL AUDIENCE MEMBER: You know, actually, I think if I had to pick right now, I would probably pick her.
KING: If you had to pick right now?
HOLDEN: I would, yes.
KING: But is that you changed your mind since I asked the question a minute ago or that's where you're more strongly leaning there? What's missing? If there's a missing link to get you to absolutely, what is it?
HOLDEN: That's a tough question. I guess a lot of the foreign policy is really my biggest concern. But, overall, I think -- I think she is a better candidate.
KING: And you're a registered Republican?
HOLDEN: I'm an independent.
KING: You're an independent now?
HOLDEN: Yes.
KING: Who did you vote for in 2020?
HOLDEN: I voted for Trump.
KING: You voted for Trump. HOLDEN: Yes.
KING: So, if you vote for Harris in the math, that's a big deal, especially where we live here in the suburbs.
HOLDEN: Yeah.
KING: Okay. All right. We'll come back to that as well. You also had a conversation --
PAM THISTLE, UNDECIDED TOWN HALL AUDIENCE MEMBER: I did.
KING: -- with the vice president after.
THISTLE: Yes.
KING: She immediately -- you're the first one she sought out.
THISTLE: That was lovely, yeah.
KING: Tell me about it. I don't want to violate your privacy or her privacy.
THISTLE: That's okay.
KING: But to the point --
THISTLE: And I really felt that. And I really -- I came out of this feeling -- just kind of a feeling of adoration of her personally. I think, personally, she is a good person. And there was a nice connection, especially as a woman. There are a lot of things that I connect with her as a woman.
However, I am very big on details. I'm big on numbers. I am a widow with 100% responsibility for my family, for my kids, for their tuitions, for my bills. And so, I do my own taxes. I'm very much on top of every dollar. And so, that is where -- and I'm not really getting it from either candidate, to be honest. So, that's where I just want to see what lines up. And I don't know if it's with this kind of environment that you can't commit to something, but I really do have to vote for my family.
KING: Right.
THISTLE: And another thing that is very much a turnoff, and this is with both candidates, stop trashing each other. We don't care. Stop trashing Trump. Trump, stop trashing the vice president. We don't care. The voters don't care. We don't even know the people they're talking about, that this person said this and that. How does that impact the voters? That's who you're talking to, that's who you're serving. This feels like high school gossip. We don't care. We don't want to hear it.
TAPPER: You're all nodding about that.
THISTLE: Yeah. TAPPER: As someone who covered a lot of campaigns, I'm not here to take sides.
THISTLE: (INAUDIBLE).
KING: You know what Trump is -- okay, that's the point I was trying to get at.
THISTLE: Yeah, stop talking about him.
KING: In the sense that if you are her --
THISTLE: Yeah. I would say stop talking about him.
KING: But if you look at the numbers, Donald Trump is running stronger now than he was running in either 2016 or 2020. So, if you're her, you're thinking, I need to try to disqualify him sometime. But you're all telling me that you would prefer she do that by making a more affirmative case. This is why you should pick me over him.
SPALL: I would say exactly that, I think, from prior to even entering the race as the presidential candidate, and then once she ultimately was nominated, for a very long time, she didn't stoop to his level. And as of late last couple of weeks, I've really started to see, like you said, this schoolyard bullying.
And I think that's beneath her. She doesn't need to do that. She can run on her policy. She can run on her position. You don't need to stoop to his level. And I really think that's what it is. Um, and, you know, I respect her more for that, if she would just stay out of that, that arena.
King: We're in this very unprecedented place. She just became the candidate in July. Normally, you run in a primary or you're the president, as Joe Biden was, you're the incumbent, you're not really challenged. To that degree, she clearly feels the need to introduce herself more. So, you understand who she is, not just what her positions are, but who she is and what makes her tick.
Let me start here. Did you hear anything tonight? Will you leave saying, I understand her better, I know her better? Not taxes and spending, not abortion rights, not immigration, but who she is.
[23:10:01]
If the moment of crisis comes, I trust her or don't trust her because of what?
SVENDSEN: One of the things that stood out to me was when -- I believe it was you that asked the weakness question. You know, what is your biggest weakness? And she brought up that she has people around her that she can trust, that she can get the answer from. In my line of work in IT, I don't expect everybody to know the answer, I expect them to know how to get the answer.
And her, specifically, that resonated with me, because I don't need a president that knows everything or thinks they know everything because that's not what America needs. They need to put the right people in the right place to lead the country efficiently. One person can't lead this country. They need a team. And that's what resonated with me.
DONAHUE: Yeah, I would agree. I mean, that was the biggest question. That's the reason why I asked that question. I also wanted to -- I also appreciated the fact that she had a certain degree of introspection as she was answering that question, which was certainly another factor in this. We -- again, as I mentioned in the setup to the question, we are not perfect as human beings.
And in the presidency, you need to acknowledge that as well because you have so much around you that can sometimes lead you to think that you're larger than life. And at a certain point, we have to acknowledge that there is something bigger than us, whatever that something is to an individual. We have to acknowledge that there is something bigger than us that helps or that -- and that helps us be humble in our daily life, whether it's president or --
KING: To that point, let me flip it. You have to sometimes say there are things that are bigger than me, bigger than what I believe. You have a very important personal position on an issue that is profoundly important to you, abortion rights.
DONAHUE: Yes.
KING: And it's deeply personal, I assume a position also born of faith.
DONAHUE: Uh-hmm.
KING: So, she's asking you, essentially, my words, not hers, but I get you, I respect you, can I ask you to put that aside because of these other issues, whether it's the economy, whether it's immigration, whether it's Trump's behavior? That's what she's asking you to do on a principled issue on which you fundamentally disagree. Can she get you there? What would it take?
DONAHUE: I think that it would take -- honestly, it would take a profound respect for the fact that there is a dichotomy here. And whatever approach is taken on that particular issue, if we can respect the fact that the Declaration of Independence, the first document of this country, indicated that our first right that is given to us by our creator is a right to life, that matters. And if we can at least approach it with that as our foundation, then we can have maybe a conversation in that regard.
The other issues that you laid out, there is a lot of agreement on both sides. It comes down to finer points of -- finer points of execution at the end of the day. We heard Anderson pressed the vice president regarding the border wall and the fact that there's still $650 million allocated to that particular project, that project that was such a standard of the first time that the former president ran. The fact that she wouldn't necessarily answer that question directly and the fact that she agreed that we need a secure border, there is agreement on both sides. It's just a matter of the execution. That's a part of it.
KING: But let me follow up to that point. That was one where I think David Axelrod, one of our contributors, said she got into kind of a word salad. The immigration issue has flummoxed both parties for a long time. It has become a very controversial issue. She was trying to make the point that, you know, Joe Biden did this year take executive action that has dramatically reduced the illegal border crossings. That's a fact and the numbers support that.
But Anderson's follow-up question was, why did he wait? Why didn't he do that sooner? And the answer was, well, we were trying to negotiate with Congress. And he followed up again, saying, well, why didn't you do it as a temporary measure? Say, yes, we want to have these negotiations and see if we can have consensus. What did you make of her answer there?
SPALL: I think, and Erik and I kind of nodded to each other a little bit when we heard that, skirting it. Because I agree, exactly like Anderson said, yes, I understand, you know, you want to reach across the aisle and work together, that's our government, that's what we're supposed to do, but we have this crisis and too much time has passed, so why not use the executive orders that you have responsibly to take care of this issue?
KING: We are going to run short of time in a second. So, let's pretend this is a secret ballot and there are no cameras here.
(LAUGHTER)
That's a joke. That's a joke. Is there anyone -- do any of the five of you leave here tonight more likely to vote for Donald Trump? No, none of you.
[23:15:00]
So, all of you are still open. Some have said you've committed now.
UNKNOWN: Open.
KING: And all five of you are open to voting for the vice president.
UNKNOWN: Yes.
KING: And you understand you live in the largest of the battleground states, 19 electoral votes.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
KING: We were talking before we came on camera that I'm assuming you can't open your phone or turn on your television --
(LAUGHTER)
UNKNOWN: Or open the mail box.
KING: So, you have 12 days left. Could you each just take about 10, 15 seconds and tell me, what is it going to be like to close this campaign in a state that could well decide the presidency? Are you going to make a personal decision and cast your ballot? Are you going to lobby neighbors? What are we doing here? Let's just go around starting here.
SVENDSEN: I moved here last year from Oregon where --
KING: Welcome.
SVENDSEN: -- I vote by mail. And so, it's kind of cool to be in a spot where it's like the lights are all on us. But I didn't request a mail ballot. I'm going to go and experience the ballot and voting at my polling place.
DONAHUE: I run a polling place myself, so --
KING: You're an election (INAUDIBLE). I want the people to know that. Thank you for doing that.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
KING: That's a job that has come under a lot of heat in recent years. Everybody watching knows why. I've done this for almost 40 years. I greatly respect you. People all over the country do. Sorry to interrupt.
DONAHUE: No worries. Yeah, so, I will be there all day.
(LAUGHTER)
And I will be helping people -- helping people in terms of the procedure surrounding voting. I certainly will be casting about myself. I tend to not ask other individuals who they have voted for. That's just a personal decision for me because that's something that's personal to others.
KING: I will follow up and see if you will tell us, though.
SPALL: Definitely will be voting in person. It's personal for me. There's division amongst my family and friends. So, I don't need to poll anyone or, you know, I'm very respectful and hear other folks' sides. But for me, it really matters to show up and be in person. I have to say, when I was able to finally be able to vote, didn't take it that seriously. But I would say in the last four or five elections, it truly matters. And being here as a Pennsylvanian, we show that. It is -- it embodies what it means to have the right to vote in America.
KING: Pam?
THISTLE: So, I am a big consumer of news and equal opportunity. I don't have a whole lot of cable TV, but I do listen to a lot of podcasts. And the whole range, from NPR to CNN to even Fox and -- once you're on, it just keeps rolling more and more. So, I listen, and I think about what I hear because it's different, and I'll Google and I'll try to get some information to fact-check it, but I'm going to continue to do that up until the end. And then also just, you know, got feeling, I'm a game day decision- maker, and I also work the polls on the day of Election Day, so I --
KING: Really game day decision maker so you can do your --
THISTLE: I'm going to be game day decision make, yes.
KING: We will check on you. Lauren, you need to close the story here.
HOLDEN: I think it is important for everyone to go out and vote. I think, especially living in Pennsylvania, it is a big responsibility because we really are shaping the direction of the country.
KING: I want to thank you all for -- I think it's a lesson in this campaign. A respectful, polite, wonderful conversation. Thank you all. And Jake, so we get back to you. Two net votes for Harris in this group, no net votes for Trump, and three people we've got to keep in touch with for 12 very interesting days ahead.
TAPPER: All right. Sounds great. Thanks so much, John, and thanks to your great panelists. Really appreciate it. So interesting.
And the sound that you heard was the exploding heads of Democratic consultants trying to figure out what sense to make of that because the conventional wisdom, many of them say the conventional wisdom is wrong, that even though these five individuals say they don't like the negativity, a lot of Democratic consultants will tell you that voters need to be reminded of Donald Trump, that they have forgotten that that's why his popularity is higher now than it was in 2020 and 2016, and people do need to be reminded.
And also, and Abby, you were making this point, when Pam over there was speaking, the fact that a four-star Marine general, John Kelly, you know, whose wife is named Karen, and who had a son who died in Afghanistan, and we know so much about him, and he was the longest- serving chief of staff for Donald Trump, the fact that he goes to "The Atlantic" and to Michael Schmidt of "The New York Times" and talks about all this stuff, it's high school gossip to him.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah.
TAPPER: It's high school gossip.
PHILLIP: Yes, high school gossip is the better analogy for them. First, on the negativity, the strategists know that there is a cost to going negative, right? That's why they waited so long to do it. They didn't do this for the first three months of this campaign or two and a half months because there is a cost that comes. Voters, they do recoil when they get these ads that are very negative.
[23:19:55]
But at this moment, the Harris campaign also knows that these voters are in a large part discounting what Trump was like as president, all the things that they don't like about his personality, which we heard some of them talk about, and they need to put that in front of mind. So that's going to be the trade-off that they're going to do all the way until November. I don't think the negativity is going to go away because it's too important to the strategy of bringing up Trump's negatives, given that he's now more popular than he has really ever been.
I also think that it's another reminder that the -- Pam, I'm obsessed with Pam because I think --
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: They all are.
PHILLIP: -- she is so interesting. I think that this -- her life is such a microcosm of what so many people are dealing with in this country. What she's thinking about, when you go back to her first question, is that, I'm alone, I don't have a husband anymore.
TAPPER: Her husband passed away last year, yeah.
PHILLIP: I have to pay for my daughter's own college, I have to pay for our bills, and I want to make more money. But every time I make more money, you're telling me my taxes are going to go up. That's what she was asking.
TAPPER: Yeah.
PHILLIP: And so, I'm sure she cares a lot about a lot of the other issues around Trump and his conduct, but she also wants to know how she's going to pay her bills. And that is a real thing. It has to be addressed if Harris is going to close the gap.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's when we talk about, you know, how these candidates are treated. You're noting Donald Trump is not even here. He's not being scrutinized. I mean, these voters, though, they're looking at the two of them. It's a binary choice for them, obviously, and they're looking at that.
And what stuck out from Pam and Taneisha to me was saying they care about the details, and that's what really matters to them. And that has been the big question for Harris because she is so much of a newer candidate. And we don't have the four years of her being the president in the Oval Office to look at, like voters do with Donald Trump.
Pam wanted to know the details about how much she's going to be paying in taxes. She said she personally files the taxes. She's got to pay tuition payments for her children who are students. And Taneisha was saying that when she was asked about immigration and pushed on that, that she felt like she was skirting the question a little bit.
TAPPER: Uh-hmm.
COLLINS: That's how the voters see it. It's not up to political consultants or media analysts. That's how the voters felt about those questions.
BASH: And then the question is, if they had the opportunity to get details on those very issues, particularly Pam, who I think we're all impressed by, would she get the answers that she needed from Donald Trump, and what he would do in another term?
TAPPER: Right, he's not exactly Mr. Detail himself.
BASH: No.
TAPPER: Coming up next, Donald Trump moments ago responding to Joe Biden saying that Trump should be -- quote -- "locked up politically" -- unquote. This is CNN special live coverage. Stay with us.
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[23:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Tonight, Trump responding to Joe Biden's words about lock him up. Last night, Biden said of Trump, we got to lock him up. He paused. And then he said, politically, I mean. Now, of course, he said, that he corrected it, but the reality, of course, is that Trump has said the exact same thing before again and again and again. It was his entire chant during Hillary Clinton, and that's why Biden did say it this time. And now, someone else is saying it about him, though, he is responding, and he wants prosecutions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Joe Bide who, by the way, said yesterday about me -- quote -- "We got to lock him up." I told you. He said -- then he denied it. I didn't mean that. Because he's not legally allowed to say -- he can't say that. But I've been telling you that it's election interference. This is all it is. He said, we got to lock him up. This is illegal and should cause cases.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: He seemed bothered by it. He did seem bothered by it.
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS: I think there's this standing --
(CROSSTALK)
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDNET TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: -- actually said it out loud.
GRIFFIN: Well, he said it about Liz Cheney once with military tribunals. Yes, that does bother me. Look, he doesn't like when people use his own language. Tonight, Kamala Harris agreed. Yes, she believes he's a fascist. He has been calling her comrade Kamala since she announced as the candidate.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA SENIOR ADVISER: I mean, let's just be real about this. First of all, it was a foolish thing for the president to say. He shouldn't have said it, okay? Period. End of story. She has been good when people have chanted that. She has tried to quiet the crowd when they said that.
But the idea that Donald Trump is complaining about someone else brandishing the power, you know, saying something like that, this is like daily fare for him. I mean, he is constantly threatening his political enemies with jailing and with all kinds of other things. I think Milley, at one point, execution. So, I mean, it's almost laughable. Plus, it seems like every night now, he's at turning points.
(LAUGHTER)
Why isn't he doing town hall meetings and answering questions?
BURNETT: Well, he was supposed -- I mean, we had hoped that he would be. Actually, we had hoped that he would be. We had hoped this would be a debate, which he accepted. We had hoped there'd be back-to-back town halls. She accepted. He chose to be in Atlanta. So, she did. She did, was the only one who was actually willing to walk out there.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. I mean, she's trying to win, be the president of the United States. I also just want to say, he is convicted of 34 felons and could actually go to jail.
BURNETT: Well, that may be why he's so close to home.
ALLISON: Yes.
AXELROD: That's a point.
ALLISON: I mean, there is some truth to it. Like, he may actually get locked up. But nonetheless, maybe President Biden shouldn't have said it. I think that -- you know, I think that and I'm glad he did immediately fix it and not wait a day to, you know.
[23:30:02]
BURNETT: Right.
ALLISON: But Trump is going to Trump. And he is -- he literally is the only person that is able to say things. And then when people take it and use it, he's like takes his ball and goes and wants to go play in his room by himself. But then also is able to take people's language and use it against them. It is a talent, I would say. I think it is a dangerous talent, but it is a talent. And that's what he's doing right here, like, that phrase would not have any meaning or any value, but for Donald Trump.
BURNETT: He coined it.
GRIFFIN: He coined it.
ALLISON: He coined it.
JENNINGS: I just -- I got to say, I -- probably going to surprise you. I'm just loving Joe Biden more and more by the week. He has popped out here in October. And every time he says something out loud, it helps Donald Trump or confirms something that Donald Trump says. And he pops out the other day and says, well, she helped me pass all the laws. She has been here side by side for everything we've done. Then he comes out with this thing and confirms the thesis of Donald Trump's entire complaint, which is this is a political prosecution of me --
BURNETT: Weaponization.
JENNINGS: Weaponization of justice. And then here comes my new favorite president, Joe Biden, at the 11th hour to confirm all this. He has been the biggest help to Trump in the last few weeks. It must be driving Harris crazy every time he pops up.
BURNETT: So, Scott, Van earlier said, and I thought it was interesting in the context of tonight and what we saw because people had a lot of criticisms about Harris's performance. But the point that he made was that she has to be flawless. Flawless, right? This is the judgment that you can't make mistakes, you can't have bad answers, word salad city is not okay. But he, Trump, is allowed to be lawless. And that people just kind of look the other way because if you just keep doing it so much, people stop talking about it. That was Van's point. Do you see something in that?
JENNINGS: I mean, is that profound because it rhymes? I mean, look, she doesn't --
BURNETT: I do think it was very well said.
JENNINGS: She doesn't have to be flawless. But she has to give you something. I mean, she's like a true double threat. You know, she's terrible on her feet when she gets unexpected questions. And simultaneously, she can't even answer the expected questions. It's nothing, nothing, nothing.
You think she'd be prepared to do this by now. You know, what's a mistake you've made? Nothing. What's a weakness you have? Nothing. What's the first law you want to pass? Nothing. What's a policy difference between you and Joe Biden? Nothing. Over and over and over. Empty, empty, empty. If she were an animal, she'd be a duck-billed platitude.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: -- lawless rebuttal.
AXELROD: I can't help but note that you were reading that.
JENNINGS: David, you might have noted, they locked me in the closet for several hours. I had lots of time.
(LAUGHTER)
AXELROD: I understand. But you're talking about sort of spontaneously. But listen, the truth of this is, you know, I've been very honest about what I thought she did well and what I thought she didn't do as well, but she's had a much bigger challenge in this race than Donald Trump because Donald Trump hasn't won, he hasn't run one positive ad in this campaign. He has the luxury because people know him and they've made judgments about him that he thinks he cannot change to spend all his time attacking her.
She, on the other hand, has 90 days to basically introduce herself to the American people and make the case against Trump, and I think that has made her task more complicated.
ALLISON: I also -- there is just a double standard. Like, there's no way you can look at this race. I am not saying by any stretch of the imagination that Kamala Harris has been a perfect vice president or a perfect candidate, but all Donald Trump has ever done is speak negatively about anyone who -- he speaks negatively about people who support him at times, definitely against an enemy.
And so, I hear voters saying, like, we don't want you to talk trash about -- but, like, if that was actually the case, then Donald Trump would -- you would not be an undecided voter right now, you would actually have already been gone. And he literally doesn't want to do this town hall.
Now, if Donald Trump had done this town hall, and Kamala Harris would have said no, what would the story have been? If Donald Trump had been asked, have I ever made a mistake? What would his answer have been? No, I'm great, I never make mistakes.
JENNINGS: Should have never hired John Kelly.
(LAUGHTER)
BURNETT: Maybe --
(CROSSTALK)
GRIFFIN: -- Trump also benefits from the fact that he was in office for four years and people have certain vibes and feelings about that. But this time, he's running again. He's saying he's going to surround himself by different people. And the lack of policy specificity, I would argue, is actually she had -- there's still a lot that she needs to make up for. There is way more on Trump's side.
BURNETT: Yes.
GRIFFIN: When he was asked about childcare and lowering childcare costs, he's like, it's not actually that expensive. He's pro-tariffs despite the fact that it would absolutely raise costs for consumers, be devastating to the economy. He has no clarity on what he is going to do with the border because he rejected the bill that passed Congress. Like he's not answering --
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ALLISON: -- he talks about crime.
AXELROD: But on this point that Scott is raising, yes, I was critical of one of her answers where I said it sounded like a word salad.
[23:35:03]
I mean, have you listened to Trump's rallies? Because he is -- I mean, they're incomprehensible. And he doesn't get criticized. He calls it the weave, but it's --
BURNETT: He calls it the weave.
AXELROD: He calls it the weave --
JENNINGS: But you know the difference --
BURNETT: But what about -- okay, go ahead.
JENNINGS: But the difference between them is, there is --
ALLISON: He's a white man.
JENNINGS: There is something -- come on, there is something authentic about him.
AXELROD: Yeah.
JENNINGS: It doesn't make him all the time consistent, and it doesn't make him all the time specific, but there's something authentic about the way he does it. There is not a single authentic bone in her body. When people listen to her try to answer these questions, there's nothing.
GRIFFIN: I don't see that.
JENNINGS: She is searching. You can hear the gears blinding, and it comes through on the television.
ALLISON: A liar is not authentic. Like -- is he authentically a liar?
AXELROD: No, listen -- no, no, but listen, let me just slightly agree with Scott on one thing. Nobody ever says, gee, I wish Donald Trump would speak his mind. Now, he can be contradicting himself or something he said the other day or he could be completely BS-ing you, but somehow, you know he's BS-ing you and you know he knows he's BS- ing you. But there is -- no one says that Donald Trump is sort of inauthentic.
GRIFFIN: But will say, I don't even agree with Kamala Harris on a lot of policy, but she absolutely has authenticity. She's talking about her faith, she's talking about praying, she's acknowledging mistakes, she's talking about caring for her aging mother. Those are things we've never -- do you think Donald Trump's ever cared for an aging parent and would talk about it openly? There is -- that resonates with people. I don't say it makes up for policy lack of specificity, but that's authenticity.
ALLISON: I just think that the fact, the double standard is like, we are -- we're talking about an authentic BS-er and an authentic liar. And just even in that -- okay, sure, that's what that type of authenticity -- AXELROD: No, we're talking about how people perceive him.
ALLISON: No, I get it, but he --
JENNINGS: And people perceive him --
ALLISON: But you know he's lying.
JENNINGS: But people perceive him to not be a politician, he's outside of the system that I hate, and people perceive her to be a creature of the pablum-fueled system that has run the government into the ground. That is the difference.
BURNETT: Consistent with some of what we saw that "Wall Street Journal" poll, which is just coming out in terms of --
JENNINGS: Trump is ahead.
BURNETT: He is ahead in by two-margin of error, of course, by "Wall Street Journal" national poll. All right, coming up, top Harris ally, Colorado's Democratic governor, Jared Polis, is going to be here as our special coverage continues tonight.
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[23:40:00]
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TAPPER: Vice President Kamala Harris in tonight's CNN town hall just spoke with a bunch of people, the very people who could decide this election, undecided and persuadable voters, here in battleground Pennsylvania.
I'm joined now by the Democratic governor of Colorado, Jared Polis. Governor Polis, thanks so much for joining us. First of all, how do you think she did? What do you make of Democrats who are concerned about the lack of specific bullet points in terms of what she will do to help people who are struggling?
GOV. JARED POLIS (D-CO): Well, you know, first, this is -- this is a strange thing to measure, right? We got like a World Series coming up, Dodgers versus Yankees. You know, this is like one team showing up, the other one not showing up. So, Kamala Harris on the mound, throwing some balls, some strikes. But Donald Trump, you know, chickened out, is not at the plate. So, what are you comparing it against, right? Donald Trump's dribble and attacks and viciousness and negativity.
I was excited to hear Kamala Harris's plans today. She talked about her plans to support small businesses, to keep our country safe, and I think it really moved a lot of the voters that were there that are still undecided on the fence, just to have that comfort level that she represents moving our country forward.
TAPPER: She was asked if she thinks that Donald Trump is a fascist. We should note that this comes after Donald Trump's appointed Joint Chiefs of Staff, Chairman General Mark Milley, said that he was fascist to the core, and that retired Marine general and chief of staff, John Kelly, said that Trump fit the definition of fascist. She was the third in that line.
What do you think about her decision to say that yes, she thinks he is one, too? That might make the headline of this debate her proclamation that she thinks he's a fascist as well as opposed to some of the plans for small business that you were just referring to.
POLIS: You know, these are the people that no one best call a fascist, Jake, right? His former chief of staff -- I mean, his former vice president is support -- isn't supporting the members of his cabinet. You know how unheard of this is in politics, right?
I mean, the people that know you best, I have former staff loyal to me. Kamala Harris, every elected official does. Like, this is crazy that the people who work for him and knew Donald Trump the best say this guy should not be president of the United States. They're the most worried about it because they know him the best, and they know what's going to happen if he becomes president.
TAPPER: Then how do you explain that it's so close, possibly even with Trump having a slight edge? We're still 13 days away, and I should say that, you know, polls are not votes. Polls are just snapshots, and they're flawed, and there's margins of error. But how do you explain that even with all this testimony from individuals like Mark Milley, like John Kelly, the absence of Mike Pence, and on and on and on, uh, that this is such a competitive race?
POLIS: Uh, you know, first of all, as you know, Jake, there's very few undecided people.
[23:45:00]
There's a couple percent. What will also drive this race is turnout, turnout, turnout, right? On the ground, uh, people support Kamala Harris, are excited about her presidency, excited about moving forward, and they're going to come out and vote for her.
But, look, you had a panel on CNN and two of them moved towards Harris. None of the moved towards Trump. So, the more people get to know her, see how smart she is, you see the joy she brings every day, the humanity, the more people are supporting her, and I think that's what we're seeing every day and that's what we saw in the recent town hall.
TAPPER: Governor Jared Polis of what used to be a battleground state, Colorado, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
POLIS: Thank you, Jake.
TAPPER: Nearly 25 million early votes and counting. Pamela Brown has been tracking the actual votes, the turnout in this historic election. We're going to break down those numbers next.
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TAPPER: Polls schmolls (ph). We're getting some actual new early voting numbers in. Let's check back with CNN's Pamela Brown at the voting desk. Pamela?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Polls schmolls (ph) is right, Jake. We have some hard numbers for you. Millions of Americans in key battleground states have already voted early. In total, more than 24.7 million have already cast their ballots nationwide.
Let's take a look at the Tar Heel State, North Carolina, a state still reeling in the wake of Hurricane Helene. More than 1.7 million votes have been cast so far compared to this point in 2020. Early voting turnout is down nearly 22%, but there are still two more weeks for the Tar Heel State to vote.
And we were talking earlier, Jake, about Republicans accounting for a larger percentage of early votes in some states. And look at this, 35% of votes so far from registered Democrats, 34% are Republicans and the other 31% are unaffiliated voters, almost even split there, as you see on the screen. And when we look at 2020, Democrats were 42% of early voters and Republicans were just 27%.
And North Carolina's governor has assured voters that power and cell coverage have been largely restored in the western counties affected by the hurricane and that early voting is running smoothly there right now. Jake?
TAPPER: Proud Tar Heel alum yourself there, Pamela Brown, as I recall.
BROWN: That's right.
TAPPER: What can you tell us about -- what can you tell us about Georgia, where President Trump held a campaign event tonight while Vice President Harris was here in Pennsylvania participating in tonight's town hall? And let me just remind our viewers once again, we did invite President Trump to come here and talk to Pennsylvania voters, and he said no.
BROWN: That's right. And instead, as you pointed out, he's in Georgia. And I want to take a look at the number of voters who are turning out early there. More than 2.1 million early ballots have been cast at this point. That is 43% of the total turnout in the state in the 2020 race, including on Election Day. Just to note, the state doesn't report by party affiliation.
Georgia's Republican Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger, predicted this week that 65 to 70% of Georgians will cast their vote ahead of Election Day. So, while it's not November 5th yet, this election is very much underway, Jake.
TAPPER: All right, Pamela Brown, thank you so much. John, how do you read this new early voting data?
KING: I think it's one of the most fascinating questions of this election. The math is so complicated anyway. Is Harris losing a little bit among Black men? Is she gaining among suburban women? All the pieces are so complicated. And now we have this: More Republicans are voting early, without a doubt. And Donald Trump, he can be inconsistent on this message. But even Donald Trump, most days, is telling them to do that. Then, some days, he trashes it. So, you don't know that all those Republicans voted Republican, you don't know all those Democrats voted Democrat.
So, here's my question: Voter turnout has been going up. You know, it went up in the 2018 midterms over midterm elections in the past. It went up in 2020 over 2016.
Donald Trump got a lot more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016, and he still lost because voted turnout would have -- is this a sign that we're going to have more, another increase in voter turnout in the presidential year or is it just a sign that people are getting more accustomed to voting early and they're just getting it done? That's the part we can't answer yet. Are these votes that were going to be cast anyway or are some of these new votes? And that's what makes, again, every little piece of the math here is really complicated.
PHILLIP: I also think that in these last couple of weeks, that this is going to be a look at what the ground games of these campaigns look like. And both campaigns now can say that a good chunk of their voters are showing up early. So, the question is, are they able to use that information to maximize what they can do in these last two weeks?
When I talk to Harris people, they feel very good about their ground game. They control it. It's within their campaign. They've got the money to operate it. On the Trump side, the opposite is happening. It has been completely outsourced to these outside groups, a lot of them funded by very large donors. Elon Musk is one of them. That changes the dynamic. It changes what they can do. It changes how much information they have and it makes it actually more expensive to do it from the outside.
So, I think that's going to be one of those dynamics that will help determine what happens in this race that is as close as it has been for any a presidential election in many decades.
COLLINS: Well, and you heard those voters that John is talking to. A lot of them saying, I'm going to decide and vote on Election Day in person, go and cast my ballot there. A lot of people, obviously, were deciding. They made up their minds. They are not someone who's waiting until the last minute and still kind of being torn over which way to go. I think that's one of the moments tonight that didn't get a lot of attention. One of her questions was -- she was asked what she would do to ensure no more Palestinians die from U.S. taxpayer-funded bombs.
[23:55:02]
Obviously, the U.S. is sending weapons to Israel. And then she was also asked, do you consider yourself to be more pro-Israel than Donald Trump? Neither of those questions she answered directly. She instead said what she's been saying recently since Yahya Sinwar was killed. Is that crucial in Michigan? How is that going to go with voters? I think that's something to keep an eye on for sure.
BASH: And here, I mean, I did a story on the Jewish vote here in Pennsylvania. 300,000 Jews are part of the electorate here, the biggest of all the swing states. And there -- more than ever before appear to be undecided. And that is a very, very important part of the democratic coalition.
TAPPER: Thanks everyone. I really appreciate it. Just a programming note, tomorrow night on "The Source," former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton joins Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, you didn't tell me about it. That's a quarter get you got there, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: We got a lot of good questions.
TAPPER: That interview airs tomorrow at 9 p.m. Eastern. Kaitlan, you've been holding out on us. You didn't tell us that. Thank you for watching CNN's town hall coverage. The news continues after this.
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