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Johnson Appears On Track To Lose First Speaker Vote. Aired 1:30-2p ET
Aired January 03, 2025 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:30:00]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: -- Speaker Johnson while we were talking. Congressman Keith Self of Texas voted for Florida Congressman Byron Donalds. So that is three -- basically three noes to Johnson, six abstentions by House Republicans.
So this is a group of nine people right now. And we don't anticipate any others as we mark our way down to Zinke. That's nine people who are, as of now, not voting for Speaker Johnson.
If -- even if the six abstentions come back on board, Charlie Dent, that's three noes. They could change their votes before they gavel it down. But the likelihood is that Speaker Johnson is not going to win on this first ballot.
CHARLIE DENT, (R), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Absolutely. I mean, look, you have to say this about the Freedom Caucus or at least some members of the Freedom Caucus, they're always willing to take a hostage.
In this case, I'm talking --
ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, SPEAKER PELOSI: And it's usually their speaker.
DENT: Figuratively speaking. And they're always willing to shoot that hostage. And that's what they're doing right now.
Now we'll see how long this lasts. Because as has been pointed out by Patrick McHenry, you know, Donald Trump is the president. I'm sure he's going to be on the phone to a few of these guys saying, get -- get on the team.
But again, this speaks to the nihilism of some of the members who just simply want to blow the place up. They want to disrupt for the sake of disruption.
Now, I like to know, though -- Patrick, you would know the answer to this, but you we're a chief deputy whip. You know, ordinarily, you know, you should be telling the leadership where you're going to be before the vote.
And as a courtesy, even if you're going to be against them, tell them. But I'm sure that didn't happen here with a few of these votes. PATRICK MCHENRY, (R), FORMER SPEAKER PRO TEMPORE: Well, don't be
certain of that. Don't be certain of that. I mean, you have people that talk very bravely. As I said before, in closed doors, and you go out in front of the cameras, you experience those.
DENT: Yes.
And -- and actually, you know, we've seen this a lot, this Congress. But what we see here is now a group of Republicans that, if they don't vote, at the end of this vote, you have the -- the two -- the three Republicans voting for someone else, if Hakeem Jeffries has a majority of those voting and present, he's the speaker.
So these Republicans that are on the floor, they are not counted. They are not a part of the count. At the end of this vote, Hakeem Jeffries could be speaker of the House.
That is the design of these House Republicans. They know this. This is a math question. This is not a question of social -- social psychology. They know what they're doing. And what they want to do is be negotiated with during this vote for them to cast some vote or say that they're present.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: But even if they -- they get something and he gets those six votes, Speaker Johnson, Jeffries will still have more votes because of the three House Republican no votes.
MCHENRY: But it would not have a majority.
TAPPER: But it would not -- but that would be a -- that would not be a majority. So Jeffries would not become speaker.
MCHENRY: So to resolve this, he needs to get these members to say that they're there, vote for anyone, so you can get to a second vote.
TAPPER: For anyone?
MCHENRY: Anyone. Otherwise, you have Hakeem Jeffries presiding over a Republican House majority, which has not happened in the last 175 years, where the majority party did not elect the speaker of the House.
TAPPER: But that's not going to happen. Right?
MCHENRY: Well, you would think not with those that are calling themselves conservatives, the most conservative members of the House, they call themselves, saying that they're absent, basically standing presently -- you saw with Chip Roy.
TAPPER: Yes.
MCHENRY: They're all in the chamber. They're not hiding. They want to be negotiated with. And they want to show that they have marked their territory.
In my view, the best analysis of this -- the best way to think of this is you have a dog that is now marking their territory.
(LAUGHTER)
MCHENRY: So you have a group of House Republicans that are peeing on the closest lamppost to say they are in charge. That is it. And it can be -- it's probably even more crass than that, but that's what we're dealing with, with this House vote.
ETIENNE: Jake, you asked me about how Speaker Pelosi was able to bring in all her factions together and get to unity to -- to build on what the Congressman just said.
You know, it reminds me of Kennedy and Johnson where Kennedy said, bring in Johnson as my vice president. So he's not peeing from the outside inside. Right?
But here's the thing I think is -- is that the Freedom Caucus is delusional. I'm not sure what it is that they really want. They're arguing for cuts in spending, but Donald Trump doesn't even agree with that.
The -- the margin is so tight, they're going to need Democrat votes.
TAPPER: So let's listen at the end here because we have to see what these other seven members do.
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Johnson.
Zinke?
REP. RYAN ZINKE (R-MT): Johnson.
DELEGATE STACEY PLASKETT (D-VIRGIN ISLANDS: All right. Hold on a second. Speaker?
KEVIN MCCUMBER, ACTING HOUSE CLERK: For what purpose does the gentlelady from the Virgin Islands seek recognition?
PLASKETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
[13:34:54]
I have a parliamentary inquiry. I note that the names of the representatives from the American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands and the District of Columbia were not called.
Representing collectively, four million Americans.
(APPLAUSE)
PLASKETT: Mr. Speaker, collectively, the largest per capita of veterans in this country.
MCCUMBER: Does the gentlelady have a parliamentary --
(CROSSTALK)
PLASKETT: I ask why they were not called.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSWOMAN: The House is not in order.
(CROSSTALK)
MCCUMBER: The gentlelady is recognized.
PLASKETT: I ask why they were not called from the parliamentarian, please.
MCCUMBER: Delegates-elect and the resident commissioner-elect are not qualified to vote. Representatives-elect are the only individuals qualified to vote in the election of a speaker.
As provided in Section 36 of the House Rules and Manual, the speaker is elected -- is elected by a majority of the members-elect, voting by surname.
PLASKETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
This body and this nation has a territories --
(CROSSTALK)
(GAVEL)
PLASKETT: -- and a colonies problem.
(GAVEL)
MCCUMBER: The house will be in order.
PLASKETT: What was supposed to be temporary
(GAVEL)
MCCUMBER: In order. In order.
PLASKETT: -- has now effectively --
(SHOUTING)
PLASKETT: -- become permanent. We must do something about this --
(SHOUTING)
MCCUMBER: The gentlelady is no longer recognized.
(GAVEL)
(APPLAUSE)
PLASKETT: (INAUDIBLE)
(APPLAUSE)
(GAVEL)
MCCUMBER: The House is in order.
(SHOUTING)
(GAVEL)
(APPLAUSE)
MCCUMBER: The reading clerk will now call the names of the representatives-elect who did not answer the first call of the roll.
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Biggs of Arizona.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Carson
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Carson?
REP. ANDRE CARSON (D-IN): Jeffries.
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Jeffries.
Cloud?
REP. MICHAEL CLOUD (R-TX): Johnson.
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Johnson.
Clyde? Clyde?
Gosar? Gosar?
Harris of Maryland?
REP. ANDY HARRIS (R-MD): Johnson.
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Johnson.
Roy?
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Johnson.
REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): Johnson.
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Johnson.
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Waltz?
REP. MICHAEL WALTZ (R-FL): Johnson.
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Johnson.
MCCUMBER: If there are any representatives-elect who did not answer the call of the roll, they may come to the well and vote at this time. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. Just stand right there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just say Clyde.
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Clyde? Clyde?
REP. ANDREW CLYDE (R-GA): Johnson.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Gosar?
REP. PAUL GOSAR (R-AZ): Johnson.
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Johnson
[13:40:06]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. We then count. We didn't count, Clyde. Because we didn't hear him the first time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The clerk heard us. The clerk heard it.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Clyde?
CLYDE: Johnson.
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Johnson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did we just announce Clyde, Johnson?
UNIDENTIFIED CLERK: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
DANA BASH, CNN HOST: And as we wait for the gavel to come down on this vote, we did see a number of the holdouts actually vote, including Chip Roy and others, for Mike Johnson. We're waiting for the gavel to come down to see what the final numbers are.
A big reason, Kasie Hunt -- you can correct me if you think I'm wrong. A big reason the holdouts voted for Johnson isn't just to sort of get right with him and Donald Trump. It's also to make sure that Hakeem Jeffries doesn't become speaker of the House.
KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Well, if you --
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: Yes.
BASH: The key, though, is that there still were more than two votes for somebody other than Johnson. I believe there were three?
HUNT: Yes, there were.
BASH: Which means he cannot win on --
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Not on this ballot on this round.
HUNT: If it -- if -- if that holds then no he can't. And that's what's forced the hand of these conservatives who we're essentially ignoring the calls for them to put their -- their votes down on the record to basically --
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: -- flush out --
BASH: Is that Dusty Johnson? They see him huddling with Dusty Johnson, no relation, from the great state of South Dakota.
HUNT: Yes. And essentially, the hands of these conservatives was forced because if they, you know, allowed it to go forward that way, then obviously Hakeem Jeffries is where he is.
But they -- they did that with the knowledge, again, they -- it seems as though they were perhaps trying to flush out and see whether there we're any other no votes in their conference.
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF & POLITICAL DIRECTOR: And guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but it looked like Johnson gave up.
BASH: Sorry. Anybody know how to lip read?
CHALIAN: No, I know, but --
BASH: Dusty Johnson is covering his mouth.
(CROSSTALK)
CHALIAN: -- Dana. But, like, it looked like Johnson indicated with a flip of a finger like he wanted to go again right away. At least that's how I interpreted that gesture.
So the -- whatever negotiation needs to happen to bring a couple of these people over to him is happening in real time right now. You're watching some of that strategy play out.
And one -- of the one of the a member of the House Freedom Caucus, I'll say, reiterated to me in a text that what they still want, which is something that they've been public about these -- now we have three -- is that Chip Roy, Republican of Texas, become the House rules chair.
Manu Raju, I'm going to bring you in.
And you can tell our viewers what the chances of that would be.
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT; Very slim to none, Dana. That would require a significant reversal from Mike Johnson to give that.
And it actually could cause a revolt among more establishment Republicans, more middle-of-the-road Republicans. People who are aligned with Mike Johnson would revolt at that idea, because that is such an important position to essentially determine the flow of legislation onto the House floor.
Remember, Kevin McCarthy, in order to become speaker of the House, he changed practice typically on that very powerful committee. They would put most of his closest -- the speaker would put his closest allies on that committee.
But John McCarthy, in order to get the job, agreed to put three or more of his detractors of sorts on the committee. That includes Chip Roy, who we just saw there, ultimately vote for Mike Johnson.
And also, of course, Ralph Norman, who just voted against Mike Johnson. And also Thomas Massie, who just voted against Mike Johnson as well.
[13:45:06]
The question is going to be, ultimately whether or not what these members ultimately want.
BASH: Yes.
RAJU: The pressure is going to be enormous on Ralph Norman and Keith Self, in particular, one of those, Jake, that will need to at least flip in order for him to get the job. A couple of those will.
BASH: Right. And I just want to say, as I go over to Jake, what we're seeing right now is fascinating. We're really seeing what tends to happen behind the scenes, the negotiations, the horse trading, the conversations happening on the floor.
And the person you see now, to Speaker Mike Johnson's right, is Tim Burchette, who did vote for him but is clearly trying to be a conduit between the speaker and what those -- what looks like three no votes -- want in order to become yes votes.
TAPPER: And thing that's interesting right now, we should note -- and I want to get former speaker Patrick McHenry to weigh in on this -- is so the six holdouts that didn't vote all ended up voting before the gavel came down. They all voted for Johnson.
They were flexing their muscle, showing what they could do. But also, they -- they voted for Johnson, knowing that he was not going to win on the first ballot. He lost the first vote.
He lost the first vote because of three other members of the House Freedom Caucus, Thomas Massie of Kentucky, who voted for the House majority whip. Tom Emmer of Minnesota, Ralph Norman, who voted for Jim Jordan, and Congressman self of Texas, who voted for Byron Donalds.
Is the negotiating right now between all nine of these individuals, or is it with the three noes, or is it with the six holdouts who then ultimately voted for Johnson? What is -- what's your best information?
MCHENRY: Well, they're together.
TAPPER: All nine of them?
MCHENRY: All -- all nine are together.
Kristen said this -- at the very beginning of this conversation, said that to that we changed -- the new rules package changes the threshold to vacate the chair to nine members, which --
TAPPER: To remove a speaker?
MCHENRY: So now we have nine Republicans saying they can remove the speaker. They -- they've shown that. They peed on the lamppost. Now it's a question of, what do you do next?
The speaker and his hand motion just consulting with John Legansky, who is former Speaker McCarthy's chief strategist, on opening week and through -- throughout the speakership. And he said that motion, it's clear to him we're going directly to a second ballot. The speaker thinks he does not need to negotiate.
And John and I agree on this point, which is, the speaker has to negotiate. That's what you have to do. You may try to -- you may try to push them in the second vote by going immediately.
But these holdouts, the nine holdouts, eight, eight of which we're holdouts against Speaker McCarthy two years ago, these three holdouts will remain strong and know what they're doing.
TAPPER: So the House Freedom Caucus has dozens of individuals. Was there, as far as you know, some sort of plan where it's, like, well, nine is the number that is needed in this rule package to bring down a speakership.
All we need is nine of us to do this, and you three do this, and you six do this. And everyone else, you can just vote for Johnson. I mean, it does -- it -- is it that strategic?
MCHENRY: From the outset, it looks strategic but is far messier in the room in the negotiations that they have among -- amongst themselves of who's willing to do what.
And in this atmosphere -- I think Scott Jennings said this correctly -- with Trump involved coming into the White House, it's different. So you had these six Republicans saying they're brave enough to -- to not say anything. They were not brave enough to cast a separate ballot from what Donald Trump's choice is for speaker.
The three remaining, Thomas Massie has a very specific set of challenges - of -- of problems with Speaker Johnson. I don't think they're going to be resolved. That is about performance. It is the shine that got knocked off of Johnson in December with this spending package he negotiated. Massie said that's too far --
TAPPER: Right.
MCHENRY: -- that we can -- beyond which we can bear.
Ralph Norman has been a very difficult member to negotiate with, with a moving set of targets. He's had to negotiate in the past. That's likely the present situation.
And -- and Self of Texas, significantly similar to -- to Ralph Norman in that regard.
So we're going to find out what they want and the purpose of this.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And not only has Massie got problems with Johnson. Donald Trump has no sway over Thomas Massie. Massie voted for Ron DeSantis for president.
And at one point, Donald Trump came out against Thomas Massie, who, by the way, is my congressman from Kentucky. in one of his primaries, unsuccessfully, by the way. Massie overcame that opposition from Trump.
So if you're thinking like you can just get Donald Trump on the phone here maybe that helps with Ralph Norman and the other guy, but it's -- its not going to help with Massie.
I think the -- the mindset of the Republican Party here is important. We're not in the peanut gallery. We're -- we've been elected to govern, you know, the House, the Senate and the White House. The American people put the Republican Party in charge across the board.
[13:50:11]
And so there are some responsibilities here to the voters who cast those votes to say, are you going to do something in Washington other than sit around and read each other's names out loud all day?
TAPPER: One of the other things, one of the other points I think is worth noting is that by some measures, Mike Johnson is the most conservative speaker of the House ever, just in terms of his personal political beliefs.
Now, I realize that the definition of what conservative is, is being redefined in the era of Trump. But it certainly when it comes to social issues, certainly when it comes to denying the results of the 2020 election and on and on, he has been in lockstep with -- with President Trump.
So it's not as if this is a squish, as House Republicans -- that's a term from -- from days gone by. He's not -- he's not a moderate. He's not a liberal. He is a conservative.
And I think that he would -- if he were here, he would say he passes the most conservative legislation that his party allows him to do.
MCHENRY: As the only squish in the room.
(LAUGHTER)
MCHENRY: I can tell you, I can tell you, I can certify --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: By the way, let -- I'm just finishing.
JENNINGS: Is this vote closed by the speaker?
TAPPER: Speaker -- Speaker Johnson is leaving the floor of the House right now.
MCHENRY: Where he's going, is the back room.
TAPPER: The vote is not closed. We should note it has not been gaveled closed.
MCHENRY: And we did not see who was in the room, that back room right off the House floor. It's not the cloakroom. It's actually where the head of the pages used to have an office.
It has four -- four chairs in there, a small little table, that's it. So who's likely in that room are Thomas Massie, Ralph, right there on the floor.
TAPPER: Sorry, it's Tom Massie with Marjorie Taylor Greene.
MCHENRY: Let me just -- I'm wrong. Ralph Norman could be in there.
So you have Norman and Self in there and negotiating directly with the speaker, one or both of them. And that could be -- that could be the vote. It could -- it could close things out.
ETIENNE: Can I just -- can I just kind of disagree agree with both the Congressman and Scott here? Wherein the dynamics are different because Republicans won all three chambers, two chambers and the White House, it's clear that the party is still the same.
This is the same, same show, tired show we've seen even when McCarthy was actually running.
So to challenge Scott a little bit, it's clear to me that Donald Trump doesn't have sway over his own caucus, his own conference.
And that's really the problem going into this next administration. If you can't get this one right, how are you going to make the hard votes and the hard decisions?
TAPPER: So let me go just to check in with Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.
Because, Manu, there is something going on in the back of the chamber right now. Speaker Johnson is meeting with some individuals. Obviously, he needs to do something to become speaker of the House. What can you tell us?
RAJU: Yes. And Jake, just members just got a notification to return to the floor immediately to proceed to a second roll call vote.
So that's what they are being told, that this vote is going to happen soon, that they're going to move to essentially do what we saw just moments ago. There will be nominating speeches given to nominate the speaker candidates, one for Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic leader, one for Mike Johnson.
And then afterwards, they will proceed to a roll call vote alphabetical order. We'll see if any votes change from here until -- from now until then.
Because, as you mentioned, these votes are -- these discussions are happening in real time on the House floor. Mike Johnson was huddling with his leadership team about how to proceed. He's talking to some of the key liaisons between the holdouts and with leadership.
Whether that's being -- is going to be enough to get some of those, get those two members -- really the focus is going to be on these two key Republican members, Ralph Norman of South Carolina, as well as Keith Self of Texas. Can they flip? That's going to be the big question as we head into the second ballot -- Jake?
TAPPER: Well, are they going to -- that's my next question for you, Manu, are they going to gavel this down so that the first ballot is over and they go to the second ballot.
Because they have not -- I mean, those who are just tuning in to House proceedings for the first time, may be intrigued to learn that they can stop time in the House of Representatives. A closed vote can, you know, until the vote is closed. It states time stands still --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: -- and everybody keeps moving. But -- but I mean, right now they have not officially gaveled the first ballot to a close.
RAJU: Yes. And they are tallying the vote. They're counting to make sure that they don't have the real time vote that we have on our screen there. They are doing this by hand, Jake. So of course, as you know, this takes time for them to ultimately tally the vote.
And then they will announce the final vote on the floor. The clerk will say that no speaker has been elected. And I think at that point, we can expect the second ballot to take place.
The question for the speaker will be Speaker Johnson will be, has anything changed? They hope that they will. But if he loses again, we'll see what he decides to do after that second vote. Jake.
And there is a former House speaker, Nancy Pelosi. We should just point out once again that she has recovered from breaking her hip in an overseas congressional delegation trip to Italy.
[13:55:08]
A remarkable moment in that she broke her hip, then posed for the big class photo with everybody over there, Democrats and Republicans --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: -- and then, then went to the hospital.
Anyway --
(LAUGHTER)
TAPPER: -- it's good -- it's good to -- it's good to see her on her feet.
What are you thinking as you watch this?
KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST & POLLSTER: Well, I just keep remembering that it was, I think, October of 2023, and I was here at this desk with you, Jake, and I said, to quote the great Hans Gruber, "You asked for miracles, Democrats. I give you the GOP."
TAPPER: Yes.
SOLTIS ANDERSON: And we are right back there in the same spot where Republicans now in what should be a stronger position, seeming to not send the message that they're ready to govern on this first ballot.
However, what I do wonder is, does the fact that Donald Trump is president, does the fact that the Republican base likes Donald Trump a lot, make this dynamic very different than what we saw during the Tea Party era.
In a way that says this first round was message sending. But ultimately, the second round works. If they wanted to put down a marker to, this former speaker's point, pee on the lamp post, make their point, and then move on.
I do think there's a chance that the second ballot works out, precisely because this dynamic is so different. They've sent -- the message has been sent.
JENNINGS: I think -- I think some dogs need to be taken back to the pound. That's what I think.
(LAUGHTER)
JENNINGS: I mean, I mean, to -- to continue the metaphor, the voters who elected these Republicans did not vote for this. And, and I just I think we're in a -- we're in a different time.
They want quick action. They think the country is off on the wrong track. They are desperate for something different in Washington. And what they're seeing on their television screen today is more of the same. It's not going to go over well back home. TAPPER: Let me -- let me poke at that for one second, Scott, because,
I mean, the voters who voted for Donald Trump also voted for these bomb throwers.
JENNINGS: Yes.
TAPPER: I mean, all of them come from heavy Trump districts. These are -- these are not swing-district Republicans. Tom Massie, Chip Roy, I mean, Ralph Norman, Keith Self, these are people voted for Massie and Trump.
JENNINGS: Yes. I'm not even sure there was a Democrat on the ballot in Kentucky Four.
TAPPER: Yes.
JENNINGS: And so do you think that Republican voters went to the polls and said, I'm going to vote for Trump? But I really also want to vote for another Republican who's going to try to stop him right out of the gate and stop -- by the way, look at the numbers here. You know?
You've got nine people out of 219 trying to stop the overwhelming will of the Republican Party. These voters didn't go to the polls and -- and specifically bifurcate their votes to put Republicans in to stop --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: -- or 77 million of them. I have no idea what they were thinking.
DENT: But this is nothing. We've been watching this go on for at least a decade --
TAPPER: Right.
DENT: -- now, to some degree. So the fact that we have this group of recalcitrant members --
TAPPER: It's always the Freedom Caucus.
DENT: It's always them. And --
(CROSSTALK)
DENT: -- I don't know what they want. By the way, you -- you brought up ideology. You're right that Speaker Johnson is very conservative. Maybe never a more conservative speaker.
And a lot of these guys, too. It's not about ideology, but they never want to be outflanked. You know, they always want to be to the right of the right. And so they're making a point that I'm the most conservative guy in the room. See, look what I just did. This is what they're doing.
And by the way, the lamp post analogy, I mean, the speaker -- TAPPER: Peeing on the lamppost.
MCHENRY: Yes, well, peeing on -- the peeing on the lamppost. Well, the lamppost here is the speaker of the House, or soon to be. But to be speaker of the House, to be a Republican speaker of the House is to suffer indignities in public. OK?
(LAUGHTER)
MCHENRY: And -- and that is a -- that is not a fun situation. So a part of this -- a part of this is to embarrass the speaker. That is certainly a component of this.
The second part is to exhibit and as a show of force that they have the capacity to decide the agenda. And that is a showing that is significant, I think, in this setting, especially with President Trump just days away from the presidency.
TAPPER: Yes. One of the other things that's interesting here is, is the notion of outflanking, as you pointed out.
Because the way that districts are gerrymandered -- and this is on the left and the right, Democrats and Republicans -- for most of the members of Congress, their challenge is in the primary.
And they don't want to be outflanked on the left if you're a Democrat or on the right if you're a Republican. And that results in fewer people who are willing to come together and govern.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Is that -- would you -- would you -- do you think that that's an accurate statement that I just made?
MCHENRY: Well, it's been previously accurate.
Here's what's interesting about this last election in the House. A majority of voters that voted for a House election voted for Republicans in this country --
TAPPER: Yes.
MCHENRY: -- Republicans in this country to a larger percentage than the House seats of Republicans.
That has been different than Democrats had that advantage for the last 20 years. And it just flipped in this election.
So -- so it's incentive structure.
TAPPER: Right.
[13:59:58]
MCHENRY: And you can raise money online in an instant. You have enormous political power that is different structurally than where we were in, let's say, the '70s or the '80s.
But in this situation, what we're looking at --
